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View Full Version : The How-It-Should-Be Rogue, v1.0



Fax Celestis
2008-09-27, 11:24 PM
Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d6

Skills: A rogue chooses four skill sets. 8 + Int skill points per level, x4 at first level. She also receives Initiative as a bonus skill.

Prowess: A rogue gains four points of prowess each level.

Rogue Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Powers (Ex): A rogue has a host of special powers available to her. She is a paragon of stealth, an up-and-coming social broker, or even a master assassin, and all of these are made possible through her power selection. Similar to feats--and to a lesser extent, to skill tricks--powers allow a rogue to shine a limited number of times per day.

Powers are divided into three categories: physical, mental, and social. Physical powers allow a rogue to accomplish great feats of agility, combat prowess, and stealth. Mental powers allow a rogue to resist magic or occasionally create a little magic of their own. Social powers allow a rogue to become a master of interpersonal relations--provided they are used correctly.

Unless otherwise noted, powers are immediate-action Extraordinary abilities that do not provoke attacks of opportunity for their use.

Powers Known
{table=head]Level | Least | Lesser | Greater
1 | 1 | - | -
2 | 1 | - | -
3 | 1 | - | -
4 | 2 | 1 | -
5 | 2 | 1 | -
6 | 2 | 1 | -
7 | 2 | 1 | 1
8 | 3 | 1 | 1
9 | 3 | 2 | 1
10 | 3 | 2 | 1
11 | 3 | 2 | 1
12 | 3 | 2 | 2
13 | 4 | 2 | 2
14 | 4 | 3 | 2
15 | 4 | 3 | 2
16 | 4 | 3 | 2
17 | 4 | 3 | 3
18 | 5 | 3 | 3
19 | 5 | 4 | 3
20 | 5 | 4 | 3[/table]

Trapfinding (Ex): A rogue can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

Rogues can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. A rogue who beats a trap's DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

A rogue also has an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 5th level, to +3 when she reaches 10th level, to +4 when she reaches 15th level, and to +5 at 20th level.

Sneak Attack (Ex): Whenever a rogue flanks an enemy he adds 1d6 damage to his attack rolls, +1d6 damage per two additional rogue levels. Foes that are surprised or are unable to defend themselves--such as a bound or paralyzed foe, or a foe you attack from hiding or invisibility--are considered flanked for the purposes of this ability.

A target without a discernible anatomy (such as an undead, construct, ooze, plant, or incorporeal creature) or a target immune to critical hits is not subject to this extra damage. Similarly, a rogue cannot sneak attack a foe with concealment, nor can he make a sneak attack with a weapon that does nonlethal damage. A sneak attack can only be made with a ranged weapon if the target is within one range increment of the weapon used.

As normal, extra dice of damage are not multiplied on a critical hit.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Canny Finesse (Ex): Most rogues are more dependent upon their agility than their strength. As such, most are better-armed when fighting with a precise weapon. Starting at 3rd level, a rogue with a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of her size category may use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on attack rolls. She may also add her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to damage with those weapons.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.

If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Special Ability: On attaining 8th level, and at every three levels thereafter (11th, 14th, 17th and 20th), a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options.

Alchemical Grenadier (Ex): A rogue with this ability is an expert at creating alchemical items. She may create alchemical items despite not having a caster level or having any appropriate feats, provided she has enough ranks in the Craft skill. She also receives a bonus on attack rolls (and damage rolls, if applicable) when using alchemical weapons equal to her Intelligence modifier. For alchemical items that do not deal damage and have a duration longer than one round, she instead adds her Intelligence modifier in rounds to the item's duration.

Creature Enthusiast (Ex): When making a check to discover information about a creature, a rogue with this special ability receives a +5 bonus. A rogue selecting this ability also gains the Favored Enemy ability, as a ranger, for one type of foe of her choice.

Crippling Strike (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.

Defensive Roll (Ex): The rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll. A rogue can choose this ability more than once: each time beyond the first increases her uses-per-day by one.

Finesse Expert (Ex): A rogue with this ability is a canny master of precise striking. She adds her Intelligence modifier to attack rolls and damage rolls while fighting with weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A rogue can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a rogue can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Initiate Assassin (Ex): A rogue with this special ability stacks her rogue and assassin levels when determining the DC of her Death Attack ability. This ability has no effect if the rogue does not have the Death Attack ability.

Magic Item Attunement (Ex): If a rogue successfully activates an item with the Use Magic Device skill, she can take a free action to attune herself to the item. For the next 24 hours, she can activate that item without making further Use Magic Device checks. A rogue can attune herself to only one item at a time. If she attunes yourself to a second item, the previous attunement ends.

Mentor (Ex): The rogue gains a cohort as if she had taken the Leadership feat. She does not, however, gain other benefits of the Leadership feat. The rogue's cohort is also a rogue and cannot take this power.

Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue's attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round. A rogue can choose this ability more than once: each time beyond the first increases her uses-per-round by one.

Penetrating Strike (Ex): A rogue who chooses this ability also chooses one of the following types: undead, construct, ooze, or plant. Creatures of that type are now sneak attackable by the rogue, though she only deals half normal damage. This ability can be selected multiple times. Each time, it applies to a new type. Alternatively, a rogue can select this ability and a type she already has chosen for this ability. If she does so, she may now sneak attack creatures of that type at full strength.

Poison Master (Ex): A rogue with this special ability increases the DC of any poison or similar substance she utilizes by 2. The poison also deals one additional point of ability damage (if it deals ability damage) each time it takes effect. If the poison deals multiple kinds of ability damage, determine which it affects randomly.

Poison Use (Ex): A rogue with this special ability need not worry about poisoning herself when applying a poison.

Skirmisher (Ex): A rogue with this ability who uses a move action to move into a flanking position or charge into a flanking position can attack once with their primary hand and once with their off-hand as a standard action.

Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the rogue's ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw. A rogue can choose this ability more than once: each time beyond the first grants her an additional saving throw one round later, so that a rogue who had chosen this ability twice would have a saving throw upon being targeted by the spell, a second saving throw one round later, and a third saving throw one round after that.

Skill Mastery (Ex): At 6th level (and again at 16th level), the rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 1 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.

Reflexive Defense (Ex): Starting at 12th level, a rogue who is attacked in melee can attempt to reflexively soften the blow. By spending an immediate action, a rogue in light or no armor may make a Reflex save against a successful melee attack on her, with a DC equal to the damage dealt. If she is successful, she is able to mitigate the blow and halves the damage. This ability only applies against one attack in a full-attack action, not against all of them.

Improved Reflexive Defense (Ex): At 18th level, a rogue is an adroit master of agility. She no longer needs to spend an immediate action to activate her Reflexive Defense ability.

Rogue Progression
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Least Powers Per Day | Lesser Powers Per Day | Greater Powers Per Day
1st | +0 | +1 | +2 | +0 | Trapfinding +1, Sneak Attack +1d6 | 1 | - | -
2nd | +1 | +1 | +3 | +0 | Evasion | 1 | - | -
3rd | +2 | +2 | +3 | +1 | Sneak Attack +2d6, Canny Finesse | 2 | - | -
4th | +3 | +2 | +4 | +1 | Uncanny Dodge | 2 | 1 | -
5th | +3 | +3 | +4 | +1 | Trapfinding +2, Sneak Attack +3d6 | 2 | 1 | -
6th | +4 | +3 | +5 | +2 | Skill Mastery | 3 | 1 | -
7th | +5 | +3 | +5 | +2 | Sneak Attack +4d6 | 3 | 1 | 1
8th | +6/+1 | +4 | +6 | +2 | Improved Uncanny Dodge, Special Ability | 3 | 2 | 1
9th | +6/+1 | +4 | +6 | +3 | Sneak Attack +5d6 | 4 | 2 | 1
10th | +7/+2 | +5 | +7 | +3 | Trapfinding +3 | 4 | 2 | 1
11th | +8/+3 | +5 | +7 | +3 | Special Ability, Sneak Attack +6d6 | 4 | 2 | 1
12th | +9/+4 | +6 | +8 | +4 | Reflexive Defense | 5 | 3 | 2
13th | +9/+4 | +6 | +8 | +4 | Sneak Attack +7d6 | 5 | 3 | 2
14th | +10/+5 | +6 | +9 | +4 | Special Ability | 5 | 3 | 2
15th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +9 | +5 | Trapfinding +4, Sneak Attack +8d6 | 6 | 3 | 2
16th | +12/+7/+2 | +7 | +10 | +5 | Skill Mastery | 6 | 4 | 2
17th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +10 | +5 | Special Ability, Sneak Attack +9d6 | 6 | 4 | 2
18th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +11 | +6 | Improved Reflexive Defense | 7 | 4 | 3
19th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +11 | +6 | Sneak Attack +10d6 | 7 | 4 | 3
20th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +12 | +6 | Trapfinding +5, Special Ability | 7 | 5 | 3[/table]

Powers
Least Powers
Physical Powers
Athleticism
Prerequisites: Tumble 4 ranks, Climb 4 ranks, Balance 4 ranks
Benefit: Upon activating this power, the rogue gains a +10' insight bonus to her land speed as well as a 10' climb speed for a number of rounds equal to her Dexterity modifier.

Extreme Leap
Prerequisites: Jump 6 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can activate this power as a free action while making a Jump check. The rogue determines jumping distance as normal according to their check, and then doubles the distance.

Focused Strike
Prerequisites: Concentration 4 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power as an immediate action to add his Intelligence modifier to a d20 roll made to confirm a critical.

Hidden Blade
Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 6 ranks, Bluff 4 Ranks, Disguise 4 ranks
Benefit: A rogue with a weapon successfully hidden on her person in an accessible place can activate this ability as an immediate action. The rogue can then immediately make an attack at her full attack bonus minus two with the hidden weapon. The weapon is no longer hidden (as it is now in the rogue's hand) and may reuire the rogue to free a hand to make the attack. A foe struck in this fashion is flat-footed against this attack.

Lucky Dodge
Prerequisites: Tumble 4 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power as an immediate action to reroll a Reflex save that qualifies for the Evasion class feature. This reroll must be taken before the effects are determined, but can be selected after the result is seen.

Now I'm Angry
Prerequisites: Intimidate 6 ranks
Benefit: A rogue may activate this ability as an immediate action after striking an opponent but before damage is rolled. The rogue adds extra damage equal to the difference between her current hit point total and her maximum hit point total.

Palm the Blade
Prerequisites: Bluff 6 ranks, Sleight of Hand 4 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to make a feint as a move action.

Snatch
Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 6 ranks, Bluff 4 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can activate this ability as an imemdiate action while making a Sneak Attack. By sacrificing all Sneak Attack damage, the rogue can take a Small or smaller object on her foe's person. Attended object (such as a dagger in foe's hand) can be taken, but these require a successful Disarm check.

Mental Powers
Knack
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to be considered trained in one skill for one skill check.

Trick of the Light
Prerequisites: Spot 6 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power as an immediate action to gain low-light vision for one minute.

Point of Focus
Prerequisites: 4 ranks in any 2 skills
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to 'Take 10' on a skill check for a skill in which she has at least 4 ranks, regardless of conditions. Using this power is a standard action.

Prestidigitator
Prerequisites: Use Magic Device 6 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 2 ranks
Benefit: This power functions as the prestidigitation spell. Use the rogue's level in place of caster level for this effect. This power is a spell-like ability.

Preternatural Awareness
Prerequisites: Listen 10 ranks, Spot 10 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power as an immediate action to add his Intelligence modifier to an initiative check. A rogue can use this power even when flat-footed.

Shake It Off
Prerequisites: Concentration 6 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can activate this power as a standard action to remove an ongoing fear effect from herself. She can activate this power even if she is normall unable to take a standard action because of her fear effect.

Social Powers
Jack of All Trades
Prerequisites: Any two Professions 4 ranks
Benefit: A rogue with this power is always treated as having maximum possible ranks for her level in a number of Profession skills equal to her Intelligence modifier. Unlike most powers, this power is not activated and is instead always considered active.
Special: Your maximum number of Least powers usable per day decreases by one.

Name-Dropping
Prerequisites: Diplomacy 4 ranks, Knowledge (Local) 4 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can activate this power as an immediate action to add her Intelligence modifier to a Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate check made in a social, non-combat encounter.

Strong Conviction
Prerequisites: Bluff 4 ranks, Diplomacy 4 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to reroll a Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate check as an immediate action. This reroll must be taken before the effects are determined, but can be selected after the result is seen.

Lesser Powers
Physical Powers
Agility
Prerequisites: Tumble 8 ranks, Climb 9 ranks, Balance 8 ranks
Benefit: Upon activating this power, the rogue gains a +15' insight bonus to her land speed as well as a 15' climb speed for a number of rounds equal to her Dexterity modifier. She also adds her Intelligence modifier to Tumble checks during this time.

Filch
Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 10 ranks, Bluff 8 ranks
Benefit: This power functions as Snatch, but the rogue only forgoes one-half her Sneak Attack damage.

Flick of the Wrist
Prerequisites: Bluff 11 ranks, Sleight of Hand 9 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to make a feint as a swift action.

Now I'm Very Angry
Prerequisites: Intimidate 10 ranks, Rage ability
Benefit: This power functions as the Now I'm Angry power, except the extra damage is one and a half times the difference between her current hit points and her maximum hit points.

Piercing Strike
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Arcana, Religion, and Dungeoneering) 6 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can activate this power as an immediate action to overcome her opponent's resistance to Sneak Attacks. Any foe normally immune (or partially immune) to the rogue's
Sneak Attack that she strikes before the end of her turn with an attack that would otherwise qualify for a sneak attack takes extra damage equal to one-half the rogue's normal Sneak Attack damage.

Return Fire
Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 10 ranks, Spot 10 ranks, Deflect Arrows
Benefit: A rogue can activate this power as an immediate action directly after being attacked by a thrown or missile weapon. The rogue may catch the weapon if it misses her AC (or is deflected by her Deflect Arrows feat) and may throw it back as part of this power if she desires.

Streetfighter
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Local) 7 ranks
Benefit: A rogue with this power is considered proficient with all martial weapons but decreases her daily uses of lesser powers per day by one.

Mental Powers
Breadth of Knowledge
Prerequisites: Any 4 Knowledge sills 6 ranks
Benefit: The rogue may use this ability as a bard uses Bardic Knowledge with the same effect, substituting her rogue levels for bard levels when making the necessary check.

Knock
Prerequisites: Open Lock 7 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to imitate the knock spell with a caster level equal to his rogue level. This power is a supernatural ability.

Moment of Clarity
Prerequisites: 9 ranks in any 3 skills
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to 'Take 15' on a skill check for a skill in which she has at least 9 ranks, regardless of conditions. Using this power is a standard action.

Out of Sight, Out of Mind
Prerequisites: Hide 7 ranks, Move Silently 7 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power as a swift action to become invisible, as the invisibility spell, for one round. This power is a supernatural ability.

Rapid Search
Prerequisites: Search 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to imitate the find traps spell with a caster level equal to his rogue level. This power is a supernatural ability.

Ray Deflection
Prerequisites: Improved Evasion, Tumble 9 ranks, Use Magic Device 9 ranks
Benefit: A rogue attacked by a ray (whether it be from a spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability) can activate this ability as an immediate action prior to being struck. The rogue gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC against he ray attack; if the ray misses, the rogue can direct the ray to a new target. The ray acts as if it had originated from the original caster; only the source and target change. The rogue make an attack roll at her normal ranged attack bonus, minus two, for the ray. If this strikes the intended target, they are affected by the ray as normal.

Talent
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to become considered trained with all skills for one minute. She also receives a bonus to her next skill check equal to her Intelligence modifier.

Tinker's Knack
Prerequisites: Craft (any 3) 7 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can activate this power as a standard action to cast mending as a spell-like ability.

Social Powers
Bloodhound
Prerequisites: Gather Information 7, Survival 4, Track
Benefit: A rogue can actiave this ability as an immediate action to reroll a failed Survival check made to find or follow a trail.

Quell the Beast
Prerequisites: Handle Animal 5 ranks, Perform (Sing) 7 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to improve relations (as the Diplomacy skill) with an animal or a magical beast, substituting their Handle Animal ranks for their Diplomacy ranks should they have more ranks in Handle Animal. This power can also be used on a creature of the Magical Beast type with an Intelligence score of 3 or less, but the rogue takes a -4 penalty on the check.

Greater Powers
Physical Powers
Arcane Erosion
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Arcana) 7 ranks, Use Magic Device 14 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power as an immediate action when Sneak Attacking a foe. If the chosen foe has any active spells upon them (not magical items, merely magical effects), they take damage equal to the total caster level of all active spells upon them. For instance, an opponent under the effects of a bull's strength spell cast by an eighth-level caster would take eight extra points of damage. Similarly, an opponent under the effects of a shield spell and a mage armor spell, both cast by a fifteenth-level spellcaster would take 15 points of damage from each spell, for a total of 30 extra points of damage.

Burst of Speed
Prerequisites: Tumble 13 ranks, Climb 13 ranks, Balance 11 ranks
Benefit: Upon activating this power, the rogue gains a +20' insight bonus to her land speed as well as a 20' climb speed for a number of rounds equal to her Dexterity modifier. During this time, she also adds her Intelligence modifier to Tumble checks and receives one additional attack per round (as if under the effects of [i]haste[i]).

Deconstruction:
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Arcana) 5 ranks, Disable Device 11 ranks
Benefit: A rogue may use this power as a full-round action to hamper or disable a foe of the Construct type. As part of this power, the rogue makes a Disable Device check versus an adjacent Construct. The result of this check determines the effects of this power. Since this power is nonmagical in nature, all of its effects supersede a Construct's normal immunities gained by its type and remain until the Construct either receives a Craft check made to repair it (at a DC equal to the rogue's initial check) or receives magical healing enough to be brought back to full or above hit points. Effects are cumulative.

{table=head]Result | Effect
Less than 10 plus the target's HD | No effect
The target's HD + 10 or greater | The target's speed (or speeds, if it has multiple kinds of movement) is halved.
The target's HD + 15 or greater | The target takes a -5 penalty to all attack rolls.
The target's HD + 20 or greater | The target receives a -4 penalty to all ability scores.
Over the target's HD + 25 | The target deactivates and is slain.[/table]

Double-Edged Sword
Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 14 ranks, Bluff 11 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power as an immediate action to cause a foe who has just missed them with a melee attack to make a second attack roll against themselves. Should this second attack roll hit, the foe deals damage to themselves equal to what would have been done to the rogue.

Fight for Life
Prerequisites: Concentration 14 ranks, Heal 10 ranks, Tumble 10 ranks
Benefit: A rogue may activate this power as an immediate action after receiving damage that would reduce them to 0 or less hit points. Instead of taking the full amount of damage, the rogue only takes enough damage to drop them to 1 hit point. Any other attacks in this round deal damage as normal.

Hand Faster Than The Eye
Prerequisites: Bluff 16 ranks, Sleight of Hand 14 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to make feints as free actions until his next turn.

Now I'm Really Angry
Prerequisites: Intimidate 14 ranks, Rage ability
Benefit: This power functions as Now I'm Angry, except the extra damage is twice the difference between her current hit points and her maximum hit points.

Penetrating Strike
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Arcana, Religion, and Dungeoneering) 10 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can activate this power as an immediate action to overcome her opponents's resistance to Sneak Attacks. Any foe normall immune to the rogue's Sneak Attack that the rogue strikes before the end of her turn with an attack that would otherwise qualify for a Sneak Attack takes extra damage equal to the rogue's normal Sneak Attack damage.

Smash and Grab
Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 14 ranks, Bluff 12 ranks
Benefit: This power functions as Snatch, but the rogue does not sacrifice any damage.

Terminate
Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 14 ranks, Heal 7 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power as an immediate action during a sneak attack to forgo all her Sneak Attack damage to force her target to make a Fortitude save or die. The DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's class level + her Dexterity modifier.

Twist of the Knife
Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 13
Benefit: A rogue can activate this power as an immediate action after striking a foe with a successful Sneak Attack to trade half her normal Sneak Attack dice for 1d4 Charisma or Dexterity damage. The rogue chooses which kind of damage this power deals each time she activates it, and must choose to use this power after striking a foe but before damage is dealt.

Mental Powers
Incredible Hearing
Prerequisites: Listen 10 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power as an immediate action to gain blindsense 30' for one minute.

Lucky Break
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: A rogue can activate this power as an immediate action directly following a die roll but before the result is determined. On doing so, the rogue may reroll one die. If multiple dice were rolled (such as a Sneak Attack for 5d6 damage), only one die is rerolled.

Perfection of Trade
Prerequisites: 14 ranks in any 6 skills
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to 'Take 20' on a skill check for a skill in which she has at least 14 ranks, regardless of conditions. Using this power is a standard action.

Prodigy
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to be considered trained in all skills for one minute. She also receives a bonus to her next skill check equal to her rogue level.

Taste of Magic
Prerequisites: Sense Motive 9 ranks, Use Magic Device 14 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power to determine the magical properties of an item. By spending ten minutes focusing upon a magical item and succeeding on a Use Magic Device check (DC 10 + the caster level of the item), she can identify one property of that item (enhancement bonus, special ability, command word, et al). For each three points by which she beats the DC, she can identify one additional property of the item. This power does not reveal the properties of artifacts or legacy weapons, though it does indicate that such items are powerful.

Social Powers
Bargainer's Luck
Prerequisites: Appraise 14 ranks, Diplomacy 11 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power as a standard action while haggling over a price with a merchant or while appraising an item's value. The rogue gains a +10 bonus on any rolls made in the next minute concerning the item's monetary value, sell prices for the item, or to alter the attitude of the merchant.

Polyglot
Prerequisites: Knowledge of at least six languages
Benefit: A rogue can activate this power as a full-round action to identify a language written or spoken to her. If she continues to be exposed to the language over the period of a day in a non-combat situation, she can immediately add the language to her languages known, as if she had purchased a new language through skill points.

Takes One To Know One
Prerequisites: Bluff 12 ranks, Diplomacy 12 ranks, Sense Motive 6 ranks
Benefit: A rogue can use this power as an immediate action to substitute a Bluff check for a Diplomacy, Sense Motive, or Intimidate check. She gains a +4 bonus on the roll, and gains an additional +4 bonus on the roll if she is of the same race as the target of the check.

afroakuma
2008-09-27, 11:28 PM
That's really excellent. I especially like the speed incresing powers; insight bonuses to movement are genius.

icefractal
2008-09-28, 02:33 AM
Looks good - it definitely adds more versatility and some interesting tricks to the Rogue. A couple minor things:
1) Sneak Attack appears to work the same, so why is it phrased differently? Is it intended to work differently?
2) Masterful Precision and Penetrating Strike do the same thing.
3) Given how useful some of the other special abilties are, I'd fold Poison Use and Poison Master into one ability, and Creature Enthusiast could stand a bit of a boost.
4) How long does the "trained in all skills" effect from Talent and Prodigy last?
5) Now I'm Really Angry/Now I'm Very Angry don't seem that much of a step up from Now I'm Angry, especially as they require multiclassing and NIA doesn't.

MammonAzrael
2008-09-28, 12:04 PM
I haven't read through most of it yet, but unless I missed something, level 20 is still a psuedo "dead level" for this rogue. So unless there's a consistent desire for a fourth Special ability, or to be able to use lesser powers 5/day, is there a good reason (mechanically) to take the class to 20? I think it could benefit from a capstone to create that desire.

(If I've been retarded and missed something awesome happening because I don't have time to read the full class atm, I apologize :smalltongue: )

EDITS:
Are the Deconstruction penalties cumulative? And shouldn't the third be targets HD +15?

Fax Celestis
2008-09-28, 12:18 PM
Looks good - it definitely adds more versatility and some interesting tricks to the Rogue. A couple minor things:
1) Sneak Attack appears to work the same, so why is it phrased differently? Is it intended to work differently?
2) Masterful Precision and Penetrating Strike do the same thing.
3) Given how useful some of the other special abilties are, I'd fold Poison Use and Poison Master into one ability, and Creature Enthusiast could stand a bit of a boost.
4) How long does the "trained in all skills" effect from Talent and Prodigy last?
5) Now I'm Really Angry/Now I'm Very Angry don't seem that much of a step up from Now I'm Angry, especially as they require multiclassing and NIA doesn't.
1. There is one major change to sneak attack with ths rewrite: ranged sneak attacks change from "30'" to "within one range increment". Beyond that, the rest is merely for clarity's sake: the old sneak attack text, I've heard, was confusing for many people.

2. Why, um, so they do. *fixes*

3. Poison can be really really powerful in the right hands, so I'm a bit loathe to couple those two. However, I can certainly understand about Creature Enthusiast. Let me add the Favored Enemy ability to it.

4. My notes say "one minute." I guess I forgot to add that.

5. Would 1x/2x/3x damage instead of 1x/1.5x/2x be a better progression?



I haven't read through most of it yet, but unless I missed something, level 20 is still a psuedo "dead level" for this rogue. So unless there's a consistent desire for a fourth Special ability, or to be able to use lesser powers 5/day, is there a good reason (mechanically) to take the class to 20? I think it could benefit from a capstone to create that desire.

To be frank, some of those special abilities can be terrific. You also gain a fifth Lesser Power use, an additional Trapfinding bonus, and...that's about it. Hm. What should I add there then, to make it not quite so deadlike?


EDITS:
Are the Deconstruction penalties cumulative? And shouldn't the third be targets HD +15?

Yes, they are.

Frosty
2008-09-28, 01:08 PM
Didn't have time to rea dthrough this properly yet, but at frst glance, are you basing this off the Warlock?

Fax Celestis
2008-09-28, 01:11 PM
Kinda sorta not reallyl. Where a warlock gets as many invocations per day as he pleases, this rogue gets a limited number of uses per "grade" of power. It's probably better complared to a sorceror.

Sholos
2008-09-28, 01:34 PM
A lot of the Least powers can't be taken at 1st level. Was that deliberate?


Also, Alchemical Grenadier looks useless outside of increased duration. You say that the increase is equal to your INT modifier, but never say what the increase is. Rounds? Minutes? Hours? I would assume rounds (because anything else is horribly broken), but it should probably be explicit.

Fax Celestis
2008-09-28, 01:42 PM
A lot of the Least powers can't be taken at 1st level. Was that deliberate?Yes. You receive more powers known later, and can select them then.


Also, Alchemical Grenadier looks useless outside of increased duration. You say that the increase is equal to your INT modifier, but never say what the increase is. Rounds? Minutes? Hours? I would assume rounds (because anything else is horribly broken), but it should probably be explicit.

Rounds. And it may look useless, but it lets you craft the myriad alchemical items within the game without having to have a caster level--for some reason, you have to be a wizard to know chemistry. Honestly, the +attack/damage is just a little extra: the crafting and the duration bonuses are the true benefits.

Sholos
2008-09-28, 02:09 PM
None of the stuff you can make with Craft (Alchemy) needs feats. You only need a feat to make potions, and even then you still have to be able to cast the spell. Are you saying that the ability allows you to make potions (when mixed with UMD and scrolls)?

EDIT: Nevermind. I just looked at the skill description. Man, that's stupid.

Fax Celestis
2008-09-28, 02:11 PM
None of the stuff you can make with Craft (Alchemy) needs feats. You only need a feat to make potions, and even then you still have to be able to cast the spell. Are you saying that the ability allows you to make potions (when mixed with UMD and scrolls)?

EDIT: Nevermind. I just looked at the skill description. Man, that's stupid.

I was just about to quote you a passage. Yes, it's stupid, hence the power.

Sholos
2008-09-28, 02:16 PM
Magic Item Attunement also looks kinda boring. I mean, yeah it's useful if you're constantly activating something blindly, but once you figure out how to activate an item, this ability becomes useless. I guess if you've got a DM who likes to throw magic items at people and never let their characters figure it how they work....

Gralamin
2008-09-28, 02:40 PM
I like it a lot, your How-It-Should-Be classes continue to be amazing.
Just a question, but if a DM for whatever reason didn't like a medium save (I don't know why, this is just hypothetical), what would you say Fort should be instead? Good or bad?

Fax Celestis
2008-09-28, 02:42 PM
Magic Item Attunement also looks kinda boring. I mean, yeah it's useful if you're constantly activating something blindly, but once you figure out how to activate an item, this ability becomes useless. I guess if you've got a DM who likes to throw magic items at people and never let their characters figure it how they work....

Think of it this way: I have a wand as a rogue that requires a UMD check to activate. Since it is a wand of cure moderate wounds, it may be critical for me to use it without fail in a pinch. Taking this special ability makes it so that after you use it once today, you won't have to make further checks to activate it.


I like it a lot, your How-It-Should-Be classes continue to be amazing.
Just a question, but if a DM for whatever reason didn't like a medium save (I don't know why, this is just hypothetical), what would you say Fort should be instead? Good or bad?

Bad.

Gralamin
2008-09-28, 07:22 PM
Something occurred to me, does Point of Focus' action replace the normal action, or does it still take more time after words? And after you have used it, how long does it last? For example, does it let you use diplomacy as a standard action? Or does it let you make a skill check 10 minutes later that you can take 10 on?
(I'd assume replaces, lasts for one check that you used the action for, and it doesn't work on stuff that takes longer then a standard action)

Fax Celestis
2008-09-28, 07:47 PM
Something occurred to me, does Point of Focus' action replace the normal action, or does it still take more time after words? And after you have used it, how long does it last? For example, does it let you use diplomacy as a standard action? Or does it let you make a skill check 10 minutes later that you can take 10 on?
(I'd assume replaces, lasts for one check that you used the action for, and it doesn't work on stuff that takes longer then a standard action)

Point of Focus and its kin are used as part of the skill check.

Gralamin
2008-09-28, 08:31 PM
Point of Focus and its kin are used as part of the skill check.

Ah I see. That clarifies a bit.

Sholos
2008-09-28, 09:27 PM
Think of it this way: I have a wand as a rogue that requires a UMD check to activate. Since it is a wand of cure moderate wounds, it may be critical for me to use it without fail in a pinch. Taking this special ability makes it so that after you use it once today, you won't have to make further checks to activate it.

Oh, so it also ignores things like racial, ability, and class requirements as well as just knowing how to activate the darn thing. Gotcha. That makes a lot more sense.

SilentNight
2008-09-28, 10:10 PM
Freaking sweet, I bow down to you.

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-29, 01:58 PM
I'm a bit clear on powers/day vs. powers known. How many powers does the rogue know? Can they draw from the entire list that they qualify for, or must they select the powers?

vegetalss4
2008-09-29, 02:06 PM
why cant you sneak attack with a sap?

Fax Celestis
2008-09-29, 03:46 PM
why cant you sneak attack with a sap?

Forgot to add that the text for the sap weapon should include: "A sneak attack can be made with this weapon, but the extra damage is nonlethal."

Yakk
2008-09-29, 04:14 PM
The finess power has a problem -- a rogue will really want weapon finess at level 1, and then at level 3 it becomes obsolete.

The "dex instead of strength" might be rolled into the sneak attack ability?

Getting the greatest powers by level 7 seems fishy.

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-29, 08:11 PM
The finess power has a problem -- a rogue will really want weapon finess at level 1, and then at level 3 it becomes obsolete.

The "dex instead of strength" might be rolled into the sneak attack ability?

Getting the greatest powers by level 7 seems fishy.

Rogue doesn't qualify for weapon finesse at level 1. It has a pre-requisite of BaB+1.

Fax Celestis
2008-09-29, 08:18 PM
I'm a bit clear on powers/day vs. powers known. How many powers does the rogue know? Can they draw from the entire list that they qualify for, or must they select the powers?

They select powers known from those they qualify for according to the "Powers Known" table.

Chronos
2008-09-29, 08:20 PM
I don't know about the powers thing... The way I see it, one of the more appealing things about rogues is that the things they do never run out. Spellcaster classes are for those who like to manage limited resources like that; rogues (and warrior-types, and warlocks and binders) are for those who don't.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-02, 03:41 PM
I don't know about the powers thing... The way I see it, one of the more appealing things about rogues is that the things they do never run out. Spellcaster classes are for those who like to manage limited resources like that; rogues (and warrior-types, and warlocks and binders) are for those who don't.

I considered putting in a 'refresh' mechanic akin to the Tome of Battle classes, but that made powers way stronger than I really wanted them to be. Powers, in this instance, are supposed to be a once in a while, 'OhCrapINeedThisRightFrickenNow' sort of deal, instead of a spam tactic.

Telonius
2008-10-03, 04:00 PM
A lot of the Least powers can't be taken at 1st level. Was that deliberate?

Taking any power other than Knack at first level requires that you max out ...

Tumble, Climb, and Balance (Athleticism)
Concentration (Focused Strike)
Tumble (Lucky Dodge)
Any Two (Point of Focus)
Two professions (Jack of All Trades)
Diplomacy and Knowledge (local) (Name Dropping)
Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate (Strong Conviction)

Lucky Dodge, Focused Strike, and Knack are the only three that don't involve sinking 8 or 12 of your initial skill points. I'd suggest making some kind of other lower-requirement social power.

Yakk
2008-10-03, 04:49 PM
1> Least powers often cannot be purchased at level 1. Huh.

2> Bad wording
"A rogue can use this power as an immediate action to reroll a Reflex save that qualifies for the Evasion class feature. This reroll must be taken before the effects are determined, but can be selected after the result is seen."

3> Arcane Erosion
It's a 'if situation X happens, target dies, otherwise weak' ability.

It means that a Rogue with this ability can kill any buff-monkey target once per day, with a miss-or-die attack. Meh meh meh.

It is analagous to a spell that says "kill target player who delt sneak attack damage since the end of your last round".

4> Deconstruction
Doesn't that generate some rather annoying math in the middle of an encounter?

Second, isn't this also ridiculously niche?

5> Hand Faster Than The Eye
Um, doesn't that allow the Rogue to make as many fients as they want, until one succeeds, against every target?

6> Now I'm Really Angry
Why not just have the old power scale, instead of making a "your old power is obsolete" new power?

7> Perfection of Trade
If the skill check would usually take 10 weeks, under Perfection of Trade you do it as a 20 in a standard action?

...

That's just a quick pass through.

...

What if you unified the Powers and Special Abilities? Call (both of) them Tricks.

This also leads to the idea of having different kinds of Sneak Attacks! Ie, the Rogue starts out with the damaging standard Sneak Attack, but gains additional ones as they gain levels.

...

If you are making a 'how it should be' rogue, why keep Sneak attack as strongly attached to "can be hit with critical hits" as in standard?

Fax Celestis
2008-10-03, 05:20 PM
1> Least powers often cannot be purchased at level 1. Huh.Intentional. You can gain least powers at later times.

2> Bad wording
"A rogue can use this power as an immediate action to reroll a Reflex save that qualifies for the Evasion class feature. This reroll must be taken before the effects are determined, but can be selected after the result is seen."How is that badly worded?


3> Arcane Erosion
It's a 'if situation X happens, target dies, otherwise weak' ability.

It means that a Rogue with this ability can kill any buff-monkey target once per day, with a miss-or-die attack. Meh meh meh.

It is analagous to a spell that says "kill target player who delt sneak attack damage since the end of your last round".Not...particularly. Many different targets are buffed under several layers of protection. This makes this one strike far more dangerous.


4> Deconstruction
Doesn't that generate some rather annoying math in the middle of an encounter?

Second, isn't this also ridiculously niche?It's only "math" in as much as determining your overall combat modifiers after getting poisoned is. As for "niche", it means the rogue can do something versus constructs that isn't sneak attack.


5> Hand Faster Than The Eye
Um, doesn't that allow the Rogue to make as many fients as they want, until one succeeds, against every target?Pretty much.


6> Now I'm Really Angry
Why not just have the old power scale, instead of making a "your old power is obsolete" new power?Because your old power isn' obsolete. Liken it to a wizard preparing a fireball and an empowered fireball: why use the greater when the lesser will suffice?


7> Perfection of Trade
If the skill check would usually take 10 weeks, under Perfection of Trade you do it as a 20 in a standard action?That one I'll need to reword.


What if you unified the Powers and Special Abilities? Call (both of) them Tricks.
No. Powers are usable, Special Abilities are "always on".


This also leads to the idea of having different kinds of Sneak Attacks! Ie, the Rogue starts out with the damaging standard Sneak Attack, but gains additional ones as they gain levels. Feasible.


If you are making a 'how it should be' rogue, why keep Sneak attack as strongly attached to "can be hit with critical hits" as in standard?
Because I think a rogue's main combat ability should be tactically-based instead of all-around always-running power the way a fighter is. Where a fighter/knight/what have you walks into melee and starts tanking, a rogue skirmishes into and out of combat, picking off stragglers.

Yakk
2008-10-04, 01:14 PM
This reroll must be taken before the effects are determined, but can be selected after the result is seen.
"effects are determined" and "result is seen" are terms that ... mean the same thing, or pretty damn close.

So you have "This reroll must be taken before X, but can be selected after X."

Hence -- poorly worded.


Not...particularly. Many different targets are buffed under several layers of protection. This makes this one strike far more dangerous.

So does "kill a target who did sneak attack since the last round". A high level Wizard who has multiple buffs up ... simply dies the first time this power is used on them, as the damage scales with the Wizard's own level x the number of effects on the Wizard.


Pretty much.
Then, why not say "the Rogue may take do a take 20 fient as a free action"? Making the Rogue roll d20s until they get a 20 is pretty silly.


Because I think a rogue's main combat ability should be tactically-based instead of all-around always-running power the way a fighter is. Where a fighter/knight/what have you walks into melee and starts tanking, a rogue skirmishes into and out of combat, picking off stragglers.
Except if you are fighting undead, constructs, slimes before the higher levels, in which case your rogue does nearly crap all (or gets to do it once per day).

Precision damage immunity is a problem for the rogue class design. At high levels, you have a bunch of patches that attempt to give the rogue the ability to cobble over that problem to a limited extent. But ... that is a bunch of patches, when you could instead have interesting abilities.

...

Thoughts on sneak attacks:

Rogue has a collection of Sneak Attacks, only the damage one is precision-damage specific:
Precision: standard +xd6 damage, every rogue has it.
Disable and Distract: -x to attack rolls for one round.
Armor Chink: touch attack, debuffs AC by -x (no lower than touch AC) for one round.
Stumble: Make target move, or take penalties if they refuse to move?


Yes, the Rogue should be situational. But the level 1 to 5 Rogue shouldn't feel useless in an anti-undead, anti-construct, or similar fight.

vegetalss4
2008-10-04, 01:17 PM
"effects are determined" and "result is seen" are terms that ... mean the same thing, or pretty damn close.


i think he means that if you rolled a d20 and got a 5 you could reroll after seeing what you had rolled but before the dm says wheter or not it is a success

Fax Celestis
2008-10-04, 01:24 PM
"effects are determined" and "result is seen" are terms that ... mean the same thing, or pretty damn close.

So you have "This reroll must be taken before X, but can be selected after X."

Hence -- poorly worded.
It means 'I see what the die says, but I don't know what that results in'. It's a pretty common phrase for reroll abilities.


So does "kill a target who did sneak attack since the last round". A high level Wizard who has multiple buffs up ... simply dies the first time this power is used on them, as the damage scales with the Wizard's own level x the number of effects on the Wizard.
So?


Then, why not say "the Rogue may take do a take 20 fient as a free action"? Making the Rogue roll d20s until they get a 20 is pretty silly.
That could probably use a rephrase, then, yes.


Except if you are fighting undead, constructs, slimes before the higher levels, in which case your rogue does nearly crap all (or gets to do it once per day).

Precision damage immunity is a problem for the rogue class design. At high levels, you have a bunch of patches that attempt to give the rogue the ability to cobble over that problem to a limited extent. But ... that is a bunch of patches, when you could instead have interesting abilities.
And that would be what the Special Abilities are for. A rogue starts gaining special abilities under this schema at fifth level--before that point in time, like any other class, a rogue is going to be hard-pressed in some situations but will be a shining star in others.


Yes, the Rogue should be situational. But the level 1 to 5 Rogue shouldn't feel useless in an anti-undead, anti-construct, or similar fight.

This would be what the daily powers and the special abilities are for--selectable as a lesser power as early as fourth level or as a special ability as early as fifth.

Yakk
2008-10-05, 06:36 PM
It means 'I see what the die says, but I don't know what that results in'. It's a pretty common phrase for reroll abilities.

Ah. Then that seems pointlessly awkward and gameplay slowing down.

The roll happens, then before the DM says "hit or miss", the rogue has to make a decision. That adds a decision point to the gameplay that didn't exist before.


So?

Like I said, it is analagous to "target dies if they have done a sneak attack in the last round".

The attack is so strong that either the rogue has an "I-win" button, the DM optimizes opponents around it (wizards who keep a minimal amount of buffs up), or the rogue doesn't run into targets that put a significant number of self-buffs up.

None of these are particularly interesting examples of gameplay. As such, I think it is an example of a poor bit of mechanics.


And that would be what the Special Abilities are for. A rogue starts gaining special abilities under this schema at fifth level--before that point in time, like any other class, a rogue is going to be hard-pressed in some situations but will be a shining star in others.
**** situations -- some campaigns. Undead, constructs etc end up clumping together -- and the inability of the primary low-level class defining combat mechanic of the Rogue to function against undead is similar to, say, having a common type of monster that is 100% immune to all magical effects, and deals wounds that cannot be healed by magic either.

If you are writing a "how it should be rogue", you should take into account how common undead are as low level foes (which is pretty damn common), and give the rogue something to do in those encounters other than be a "worse than a warrior".

The rest was an objection to your class structure. Having upteen different "grant ability" methods seems like overkill to me.

I'd be tempted to have a single list of abilities that you select from. Some of them would be per-encounter, some always-on, some would be per-day.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-05, 06:45 PM
I'd be tempted to have a single list of abilities that you select from. Some of them would be per-encounter, some always-on, some would be per-day.

Then, um, go play 4e?

Zeta Kai
2008-10-05, 10:24 PM
Then, um, go play 4e?

Zing! QFT, FC.

Yakk
2008-10-06, 01:48 PM
So, I'm clearly not being that clear. I wasn't talking about 'make the rogue 4e'.

Here is an example of what I was talking about:


Sneak Tricks
Attack 1 2 3 4 5 6
1 1 2 - - - - -
2 1 2 1 - - - -
3 2 2 1 - - - -
4 2 3 2 - - - -
5 3 3 2 - - - -
6 3 3 2 1 - - -
7 4 3 2 1 - - -
8 4 3 3 2 - - -
9 5 3 3 2 - - -
10 5 3 3 2 1 - -
11 6 3 3 2 1 - -
12 6 3 3 3 2 - -
13 7 3 3 3 2 - -
14 7 3 3 3 2 1 -
15 8 3 3 3 2 1 -
16 8 3 3 3 3 2 -
17 9 3 3 3 3 2 -
18 9 3 3 3 3 2 1
19 10 3 3 3 3 2 1
20 10 3 3 3 3 3 2
[1]

Now, how the **** does that look like 4e?

Some tricks would be your "Powers" you listed above -- per day.

Some might be "per encounter" versions of things like your "Powers", weaker for their level.

Some tricks would be the "Special Abilities" you listed, including "Skill Mastery" and "Reflexive Defense".

The individual rogue could decide which Tricks to get at a given level, in a uniform system, instead of a bunch of distinct systems patched together.

Toss in a system for Sneak Attacks... Ie:

Sneak Attack
A Rogue gains 1 sneak attack point every odd level. A target is a valid Sneak Attack target if they are flanked by the Rogue, or if they are denied their Dex bonus to AC (helpless, immobile, or similar conditions).

When a target is a valid Sneak Attack target, the Rogue may use any one of the following effects the first time in a round that they hit a target:
Damaging Sneak Attack: xd6 damage on any valid sneak attack target. Only works on targets that can be critical hit. The die size increases to d8s at class level 5, d10s at level 10, d12s at level 15, and d20s at level 20. If you have levels in non-Rogue classes, you may add 1/2 of any non-Rogue level to your Rogue level to determine the die size.
Piercing Sneak Attack: Touch-attack, gives the target a Trick penalty of X to their AC until the start of your next turn. This penalty may not lower the target's AC lower than their touch AC.
Distracting Sneak Attack: Tough-attack, gives target a Trick penalty of X on all attack rolls until the start of your next turn.

That would give Rogues the ability to contribute, by default, against targets immune to critical hits.

Some tricks might allow you to purchase a new sneak attack type, as an example.

I like your Powers -- but I don't like the structure your proposed, and I didn't like the (remaining) gap with crit-immune targets. All I'm saying 'how about a better structure' and 'how about a core method in the class to remove the "rogues absolutely suck against crit-immune targets"'.

Footnotes:
[1] This particular layout was designed with the idea of removing dead levels. You get sneak attack points every odd level (just like in current), and every even level you get new tricks.

Getting a new "tier" of tricks on some even levels, and getting 2 of your highest level tricks on the other ones, is somewhat even.

This ends up resulting in 6 tiers of Tricks, gained at 1, 2, 6, 10, 14 and 18 respectively. For an idea of how powerful they should be, tier 1/2 tricks should be on the same scale as level 1-2 spells, tier 3 level 2-3 spells, tier 4 level 4-5, tier 5 level 6-7, tier 7 level 8-9, if they are "per day" abilities.


[2] Changed to 1/round sneak attack damage. This reduces the need to optimize around a bazlillion attacks/round. Instead, your die size grows as your Rogue level does. Multiple attacks merely increases your chance to land your Sneak Attack on a given round, instead of being a nigh-requirement to do decent damage.

The capstone of d20 sneak attack dice, when restricted to 1/round, isn't nearly as insane. A character making 3 attacks at level 20 would be rolling 30d6 damage -- average 105 damage, the same as a 10d20 sneak attack.

This suggestion is, however, orthogonal to the rest of these suggestions.

----

I'm sorry I offended you by making remarks critical of your implementation. I thought much of it was well done, and it was worth pointing out what I considered needed polish.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-06, 02:31 PM
I'm sorry I offended you by making remarks critical of your implementation. I thought much of it was well done, and it was worth pointing out what I considered needed polish.

It's not an offense so much as you're suggesting taking a path for the rogue that's completely tangental to what I have presented here. You're welcome to use what I have here as a base, but I'm afraid the fundament of what I have is pretty much cemented. If there's any expansion from this, it'll be in the form of alternate class features and more powers.

Frog Dragon
2009-03-09, 09:51 AM
Sorry for the threadomancy, but it fits here better that the main Rebirth thread.

Just would like to point out that some people like archer rogues. You might want to give dex to damage in canny finesse to ranged weapons too. Or give choice between Canny Finesse/Ranged ability

As it stands it seems to be rolling rogues into the melee sneak role.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-21, 02:33 PM
Included Initiative skill.