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View Full Version : [shadowfell(spoiler!)] question about encounter



qube
2008-09-28, 03:58 AM
First, if you haven't played the lvl 1 premade adventure of Wotc yet, and you don't want any spoilers; you shouldn't read any further.

Next, its a question about the campaign, so probably only people who have read the campaign will be able to answer it.



That said. I was wandering about the encounter about irontooth (?). yesterday (actually, 5 hours ago ... yaauwn ). Our lvl 1 party encountered Irontooth.

we - being a lvl 1 four-man party of a warlord, fighter, wizard and ranger - got defeated by the bugger: we quickly took care of the guys outside the cavern + took a short rest. But then Irontooth, 2 dragonshields and the artillery guy kicked our butt, (up to the point they killed the warlord and the rest of the party retreated).

Now I was wandering ... the DM told us that that was a lvl 6 encounter. was he correct at throwing that against a lvl 1 party with little to no information about it (the only thing we knew there was the 'king' of the kobolds we needed to take care off ...); or is there an explenation wy WotC thinks that a lvl 1 party should be able to win against a lvl 6 encounter in DnD 4th?



((personal spoiler allert: this is were we are in the campaign: we needed to go look for a friend of the party, and found him at dragon burial dig. when we were in town looking for information, we heard about the kobold problem and decided to go and fix it. then got defeated by irontooth. the warlords player made a paladin mercenairy, and using some semi-metagaming(the DM told about irontooths rage - since previous combat we didn't get him bloodied) and luck we defeated them. we found a note about some traitor))

so please no spoilers like "in the end you should have killed the mayer because he's in league with irontooth" ??? thanks ))

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-28, 04:56 AM
A level 6 encounter is pretty much at the very furthest reaches of feasibility for a level 1 party. You might end up on top, but it's better than even odds that you won't. Even if you win, you'll probably have racked up casualties and used up all your dailies. It's probably good for a really huge, dramatic, "one-in-a-million shot" climactic encounter for players who know their stuff and like to be challenged.

Beleriphon
2008-09-28, 04:57 AM
Now I was wandering ... the DM told us that that was a lvl 6 encounter. was he correct at throwing that against a lvl 1 party with little to no information about it (the only thing we knew there was the 'king' of the kobolds we needed to take care off ...); or is there an explenation wy WotC thinks that a lvl 1 party should be able to win against a lvl 6 encounter in DnD 4th?

Because IIRC you're supposed to have gained one level, or some better equipment by that point. Also, while a level 6 encounter is overwhelming Irontooth isn't the real problem. He's actually a pretty miserable monster, despite his level. He really just has a ton of hit points.

Swordguy
2008-09-28, 06:01 AM
It's also worth noting that, from anecdotal evidence gathered, the Irontooth encounter has an incredibly high TPK rate. While theoretically the players will have gained a level by the time they hit him, I'm pretty sure that's actually not likely to happen.

Looking at my copy, there's only three likely encounters before Irontooth (while the PCs might go to Shadowfell Keep before tackling Irontooth, I think the psychology of most players will be "the kobolds attacked us on the road, twice...lets go kill 'em and the Keep will still be there when we get back")- the initial Kobold ambush before the PCs get to Winterhaven, the next kobold ambush just after they leave, and then the battle immediately outside the waterfall before Irontooth and Friends. These three encounters, by themselves, are insufficient to raise you to level 2. They're a 475 xp encounter, a 625 xp encounter, and a 575 xp encounter, respectively. That's only 335 xp per member of the standard 5-man party, and only about 420 xp for your 4-man group. They're less than halfway to level, so it'll take SEVERAL more encounters to ensure they hit Level 2 by the time they reach Irontooth.

I think that they're assuming you play the Kobold Hall mission in the back of the DMG before you actually play through KotSF. That makes things make a LOT more sense...except for why KotSF is called the "starter adventure".

That said, my 3-man group managed to take down Irontooth through judicious tactics (pulling him outside, and separating him from his sleeping/slowed buddies with the difficult terrain outside) - but having Elves and a sleep spell that Irontooth's buddies simply couldn't save against helped that a LOT. It allowed the PCs to defeat the enemy in detail, rather than facing them all at once. Adjusting the encounter for fewer players also matters - my PCs faced 2 less Skirmishers and one less Dragonshield than written.

RebelRogue
2008-09-28, 04:02 PM
I'm in the middle of playing the module myself (we've done one more encounter after this one). We lost one character to this encounter (mine :smallfrown: ) but I rolled really hideously (setting him up with Dreadful Word to make him vulnerable to my Daily, Dread Star, only to roll horribly after which I spent an Action Point to blast him just a little... and rolled a 1. After that I thought he'd leave me alone since the paladin challenged him and I was only there to provide flanking... but he ended up smashing my face in since the pally changed target midways!) It wasn't a walkthrough, but hardly impossible either. Dunno if it was changed compared to the suggestions, though.

qube
2008-09-29, 04:39 AM
@RebelRogue
OK, but with an AC of 18 IIRC, my warlord (+6 attack) failed to tag Irontooth with both Lead The Charge and Warlords Favor. AC 18 means he won't get his by half the attacks on AC.

@Swordguy
our DM did not drop a Shadowfell Keep hint (yet) ...
we already saved our buddy: it gave us some XP (not enough to level), and a single amulet of +1 on fort/refl/will and poison resist 5. that is the only magic item our party has, which is given to the ranger). It kinda seemed strange to us that we're a lvl 1 party with a single magic item (of lvl 3), but it without a shop to buy magic items we can't really help it.

sleep seems fun, but I don't think it would have helped (with a +4 vs will and requiring a first save failed)

@Beleriphon
we didn't know that Irontooth was like that: since he was the leader, we assumed that he had quite some combat capabilities ...

ghost_warlock
2008-09-29, 04:47 AM
I think that they're assuming you play the Kobold Hall mission in the back of the DMG before you actually play through KotSF. That makes things make a LOT more sense...except for why KotSF is called the "starter adventure".

Strangely enough, my group mowed through Irontooth (6-man party, though) but got royally ganked by the final encounter of the Kobold Hall mini-dungeon.

Sebastrd
2008-09-29, 07:13 AM
Strangely enough, my group mowed through Irontooth (6-man party, though) but got royally ganked by the final encounter of the Kobold Hall mini-dungeon.

Emphasis mine. I'm DMing this adventure right now, and some of the encounters for a second time, and I can tell you that the number of PCs makes a huge difference. 4E encounters are designed for a group of 5 PCs. A 4-man group will have almost no chance of winning a fight 4 or 5 levels higher. A 6-man group, on the other hand, has a reasonable chance in the same scenario.

Fights in 4E last a lot longer. In a 4E combat, which will normally last at least a dozen rounds, a party of 4 will get 48 actions. A party of 5 gets 60, and a party of 6 gets 72. The party of 6 gets 24 more actions than a party of 4! The longer an encounter goes, the more of a difference that extra person makes. It's why they were making such a big deal about the "economy of actions" during design, and why you don't see 3E-style familiars and animal companions.

fractic
2008-09-29, 07:21 AM
I think KOTS is actually balanced against 5 PCs rather than 4. Still thanks to the fact that the encounter is basically a two stage encounter it should be doable by just 4 players. I DM a group with 5 PCs at the time of irontooth. They didn't get a short rest after the encounter outside but did win without casualties (barely) thanks to good tactics and a bit of luck.

Hzurr
2008-09-30, 11:21 AM
Yeah, the IronTooth challenge isn't a level appropriate encounter, although they try to mitigate that by having the "2nd wave" show up 3 rounds late, and not making it a true ECL 6, even though thats what the xp value says it is.

However, my party started at the beginning, and IronTooth was the 4th encounter they hit, and it was tough. It was a 6 person party, so they survived it, but a few people got bloodied. Ironically, though, they faired much better against the CR6 encounter at level 1 with 6 people than they did against the CR3-bumped-up-to-CR4 encounter with the Blue Slime with 7 people (ironically, they had enough xp to level up, but hadn't taken an extended rest yet). The ooze was one slime burst away from killing 3 PCs, and knocking 3 others into the negatives.

Sorry, got side tracked.

But yeah, KotS is tough, especially if you only have 4 PCs (as other people have mentioned). I'd advise going through and bumping down encounters (which, fortunately, is significantly easier in 4E) so that they have the recommended xp level for an encounter of that level for only 4 PCs (there's a chart in the DMG that lists ECLs and XP for groups of 4, 5, or 6 PCs).

Also, for some reason, my party never can remember the name "IronTooth" It's been "Iron Jaw" "Steel tooth" "Iron Tusk" "That Iron Goblin guy" etc.

vartan
2008-09-30, 08:45 PM
Due to time constraints I pushed back the whole "second wave" part of the encounter and made this whole scene unfold over the course of two sessions- the party cleared the entrance to the cave and took a short rest before this battle (straining my suspension of disbelief only slightly).
A four man group (Tiefling Warlord, Eladrin Wizard, Dragonborn Pally, and Dwarf Fighter) managed to defeat this foe with little tactical cunning. The Fighter stood toe to toe with Irontooth with the Warlord at his back the whole time (using a hally of course), while the Paladin scrambled around and kept the dragonshields busy and the Wizard failed to contribute much at all- especially considering he prepared Acid Arrow and the shields had RESIST ACID. He complained of a lack of proficiency bonus for casters at lower levels (and I switched the order of magic items to place his +1 wand at the burial site and put the abovementioned amulet in the Keep).
The group was up to five (added a player) by the time they arrived at the burial site- which almost ended worse for them due to those... Drakes?
I like KotSF so far.

Colmarr
2008-09-30, 10:47 PM
My 4-PC group defeated Irontooth without losing anyone (no one even went unconscious, although everyone except the wizard went into bloodied at least once).

Admittedly, (1) the wyrmpriest foolishly tried to spellduel the wizard rather than piling even more damage on our tank, and (2) Irontooth only hit with 2 out of 4 attacks after becoming bloodied.

Nevertheless, if we made it through with 4 PCs with only a little help, it strikes me as an encounter that a properly constituted 5-PC party should be able to handle with proper tactics (we bottle-necked in the small opening just south of the main cave entrance), judicious use of their encounter and daily powers (we used them all), and a little luck.

skywalker
2008-09-30, 11:43 PM
There is absolutely no way you can play the module as it is suggested and be higher than level 1 when you hit this encounter.

I just DM'ed this encounter a week ago and my group also found it very challenging. First of all, yes, Irontooth is basically just a big bag of HP. But at level 1, PCs can't really do anything special either, and I think he had as much HP as the entire party. Couple that with his regen while bloodied and it can get problematic.

My group of 5 consisted of:
Teifling Cleric
Gnome Wizard
Razorclaw Ranger(ranged)
Dragonborn Fighter
Dragonborn Paladin

Even with the Paladin smoking half of the minions on the first turn with dragonbreath, there were just too many enemies. Combat advantage for the skirmishers and Irontooth made it very hard to avoid taking damage.

I will admit that the party had some issues, such as:The wizard doesn't really like to play D&D, the ranger was poorly built(13 WIS), the cleric failed at being a cleric(healing), and the paladin was not wearing plate armor.

I think the issue here is that Wizards wrote this module knowing the char-op boards existed. So, they designed it with those types of characters(who pick all the right build options, powers, optimal races, etc. every time) in mind. I'm looking at the newer adventures now(H2 and H3) and the encounters seem more reasonably written with a normal party(with mistakes and kooky ideas) in mind.

I think what it boils down to is, Keep on the Shadowfell is just a bad module, story and encounter wise. I'd like to see a new H1 some time.

kjones
2008-10-01, 09:02 AM
I've run KotS, up to and including the Irontooth encounter. For my party of 5 (Dragonborn fighter, Warlock of some race that I can't remember, Eladrin Wizard, Halfling Rogue, Human Cleric, Dwarven Warlord) it was very challenging. They probably could have fought better tactically - the fighter at one point was isolated by the dragonshields, with his back to the wall, and almost died there - but even then, it was almost a TPK. The cleric died (though this was actually the Wizard's fault - a poorly placed Thunderwave) and about half the party went under. And this was when they were clever enough to keep the kobolds at the waterfall from running for help, and snuck around to scout out beforehand (thus saving them from having to fight two waves at once). It was, however, their fourth combat of the day, and by the end, people were running out of healing surges. Most of them had used their dailies already, and most of them used their encounter powers on the first wave.

So yes, the encounter is on the difficult side, but I enjoy the module overall (though having those beautiful maps helps).

Hzurr
2008-10-01, 11:28 AM
I think what it boils down to is, Keep on the Shadowfell is just a bad module, story and encounter wise. I'd like to see a new H1 some time.

You're actually the first person I've seen who just straight up disliked it. I've seen several people complain that it was hard, but even then it seemed the majority liked it overall. With the exception of the irontooth battle, just about everything else is an apropriate encounter.

Besides, challenging combats that take the party to within an inch of their lives are fun. No one wants to waltz through things and never feel danger.

You also commented on H2 and H3. I like H3, a lot, and I like the 2nd half of H2 (the first parts seemed a bit...boring, to say the least.)

skywalker
2008-10-01, 07:13 PM
You're actually the first person I've seen who just straight up disliked it. I've seen several people complain that it was hard, but even then it seemed the majority liked it overall. With the exception of the irontooth battle, just about everything else is an apropriate encounter.

Besides, challenging combats that take the party to within an inch of their lives are fun. No one wants to waltz through things and never feel danger.

You also commented on H2 and H3. I like H3, a lot, and I like the 2nd half of H2 (the first parts seemed a bit...boring, to say the least.)

Yeah, I haven't run H2 or H3(yet), but they both seem so much more interesting. H1 just doesn't seem that compelling(I was primarily speaking about the plot, not the encounters). I haven't run the second half of the adventure yet, most of the encounters seem ok but I'm worried that the BBEG might also cause some trouble. We'll have to see, tho.

qube
2008-10-03, 01:32 AM
My 4-PC group defeated Irontooth without losing anyone (no one even went unconscious, although everyone except the wizard went into bloodied at least once).

Admittedly, (1) the wyrmpriest foolishly tried to spellduel the wizard rather than piling even more damage on our tank, and (2) Irontooth only hit with 2 out of 4 attacks after becoming bloodied.

Nevertheless, if we made it through with 4 PCs with only a little help, it strikes me as an encounter that a properly constituted 5-PC party should be able to handle with proper tactics (we bottle-necked in the small opening just south of the main cave entrance), judicious use of their encounter and daily powers (we used them all), and a little luck.how do you bottleneck them? they can just run around through the waterfall and flank you from both sides (since the non-difficult terrain - water counts as normal terrain, not unpasseble terrain). We kept our stance in the cave entrance, but Irontooth ran arround to attack us in the back, while the dragonshields protected the artillery. With 2 heavy fronts like that, a 4 man party can't survive (unless you have 2 defenders ...):
- either we leave the irontooth unchecked (which we considered a bad idea: as far as we knew he was the strongest character there ...)
- we leave the dragonshields unchecked, which means the artillery kobolds lays us to waist ...

qube
2008-10-03, 01:37 AM
Besides, challenging combats that take the party to within an inch of their lives are fun. No one wants to waltz through things and never feel danger.OK, but I don't want the most challenging encounter on the first thing we try to do. It should be the final battle that is the most challenging.

I'm just hoping there are 3 milestones to go before the last combat (the penalty of getting raised)

Colmarr
2008-10-03, 01:51 AM
how do you bottleneck them? ...

Our two meleers (dwarven fighter and human melee cleric) started the combat in that enclosed area. At the time, all of the kobolds were in the main hall (the three to the north had been obliterated in the surprise round).

Our party rogue had in fact taken up position in/near the waterfall, so sneaking round that way was not an option for the kobolds.

By the time Irontooth appeared, we had all pushed forward into the main cave, so that's where he engaged us. By that time there were few enough kobolds left that flanking (in the tactical rather than mechanical sense) wasn't really an option anymore. The end of the combat got messy because Irontooth got his bonus damage and once in the cave the combatants spread out more, but in the early stages of the combat we were definitely in control.


while the dragonshields protected the artillery. With 2 heavy fronts like that, a 4 man party can't survive (unless you have 2 defenders ...):

/shrug. We didn't really have much of a problem with this. We didn't have "2 fronts" because we broke out of our bottleneck once it's job was done.

I don't recall exact round-by-rounds specifics, but I think the dragonshields went down so quickly that they didn't know what hit them. Probably due to trying to go toe-to-toe with an angry dwarf and a priest of Tempus, and leaving their backs exposed to the rogue hiding near the waterfall.

And as for "artillery" there's really only the Wyrmpriest and as I mentioned above it spend the combat spellduelling the party wizard (and was therefore wasting actions hurting someone who could afford to take the hits).

It probably helped that the wizard pulled out Flaming Sphere quite early and most rounds managed to park it next to 2 or more kobolds. The amount of damage that that spell can put out (average 6 per creature per round) is damn impressive over the course of a long combat (and if I remember correctly our Irontooth encounter went for 9 rounds).

skywalker
2008-10-03, 01:52 AM
OK, but I don't want the most challenging encounter on the first thing we try to do. It should be the final battle that is the most challenging.

I'm just hoping there are 3 milestones to go before the last combat (the penalty of getting raised)

There are definitely 3 milestones... You're a long way from the end. It's supposed to take you past level 3, remember.

caden_varn
2008-10-03, 06:45 AM
We had a 4-man 2nd level team wipe at Irontooth. Its a really stupid encounter to put at this point in the module which is supposed to introduce people to 4E - it likely to put new people off if they wipe this early. Nice to see they totally ignored their own encounter building guidelines.

Our group was Halfling Warlock, Human fighter, Dragonborn rogue and human healbot cleric. Not optimised, I know :smallsmile:

The main problem we had was lack of a wizard, I think, so it took ages to take care of the minions. We were also unlucky - nearly all our encounters and dailies missed :smallsigh:

Swordguy
2008-10-03, 07:10 AM
We had a 4-man 2nd level team wipe at Irontooth. Its a really stupid encounter to put at this point in the module which is supposed to introduce people to 4E - it likely to put new people off if they wipe this early. Nice to see they totally ignored their own encounter building guidelines.

Our group was Halfling Warlock, Human fighter, Dragonborn rogue and human healbot cleric. Not optimised, I know :smallsmile:

The main problem we had was lack of a wizard, I think, so it took ages to take care of the minions. We were also unlucky - nearly all our encounters and dailies missed :smallsigh:

I feel for you. I've been keeping track of my group - what they use and how often they hit with it. In the three sessions I've kept track of offensive power use (so stuff like Healing Word doesn't count), they've hit with at-will's 53% of the time (20/38), encounter powers 43% of the time (10/23), and daily powers 6% of the time (1/16). Unfortunately, I didn't think to keep track of the defenses said attacks were going against, and how likely the attacks should have been mathematically. Still, both the at-will's and encounter powers are within reasonable limits (IIRC, the average hit rate is supposedly set at 55% or thereabouts, so anything between 45% and 65% is acceptable given such a small sample size).

But, this is NOT helping my players want to use their daily powers...

ColdSepp
2008-10-03, 07:11 AM
Our six man group walked right through this encounter... I think only one got bloodied.

skywalker
2008-10-03, 02:16 PM
I feel for you. I've been keeping track of my group - what they use and how often they hit with it. In the three sessions I've kept track of offensive power use (so stuff like Healing Word doesn't count), they've hit with at-will's 53% of the time (20/38), encounter powers 43% of the time (10/23), and daily powers 6% of the time (1/16). Unfortunately, I didn't think to keep track of the defenses said attacks were going against, and how likely the attacks should have been mathematically. Still, both the at-will's and encounter powers are within reasonable limits (IIRC, the average hit rate is supposedly set at 55% or thereabouts, so anything between 45% and 65% is acceptable given such a small sample size).

But, this is NOT helping my players want to use their daily powers...

I wish I wasn't too lazy to do this. This is the math-y sort of thing I love to do. But I've got a ka-zillion other things to take care of during combat, :smallfrown:

Maybe when I go back to being a player, I'll try to keep track of these things.

I know it's completely superstitious but I think that dailies are much more likely to land the earlier you use them in the combat. Encounter powers too, but less so. Likewise, action points are more likely to be effective as well. I think this is because they feel like you only go to them when you have to, otherwise. Or, it could just be that a loss is not felt as much, because you didn't need that attack to land.

Random NPC
2008-10-05, 02:46 PM
A Flaming sphere and well timed AoE attacks go a long way on this encounter. That's how my group decimated everyone.