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Kaihaku
2008-09-29, 07:34 AM
So, recently I was rolling up stats for an Eberron campaign, figuring I'd go for a Bard or Artificer, when...lo and behold, I rolled three 17s, a 14, a 13, and a 12. It struck me as a unique opportunity to field a Monk that doesn't suck. I guess I could have put this in the Bizarre Character Concepts thread. A monk that doesn't suck.

STR: 17, DEX: 17, CON: 14, INT: 13, WIS: 17, CHA: 12

I realize it wasn't the best mechanical choice but for roleplaying reasons I went with a Changeling.

Feats taken are...
Simple Weapon Proficiency (I know. :smallfrown: )
Weapon Focus(Longspear)

I'm aiming for...
Mage Slayer [General, Fighter] (CArc p81)
Requirements: Base Attack Bonus +3 Spellcraft: 2 ranks
1. You receive a +1 bonus on Will saves.
2. If you threaten a spellcaster, he/she cannot take the ‘cast defensively’ action.
3. Your Caster level (if any) of all spell and spell-like abilities is reduced by 4.

Serpent Strike [General] (Eb p60)
Requirements: Flurry of Blows class ability. Simple Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus (longspear)
You may perform Flurry of Blows with a Longspear.

Darkstalker(Lords of Madness 179)
When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can flank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.

So, the basic plan is to use the reach of the longspear in combination with unarmed strike (kicks :smallwink:) to threaten everything around me. Granted, I guess an increase in size could provide the same benefits.

For skills, I've gone primarily with stealth, mobility, and perception. So, thoughts? Anything I could be doing better?

Also, just to ward this off, I'm fairly certain that with those stats I could make a better character with any other core class. Let's not make this that sort of debate, I just want advise on making a Monk that doesn't suck. I'm not deluded into thinking that Monks pwn all (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704&highlight=guide+monks).

lord_khaine
2008-09-29, 08:41 AM
i would go with a spiked chain, since as i recall its better to trip people with.

also i would make sure to pick improved natural attack, since that and a potion of enlarge would make your unarmed attacks do some decent damage.

still, i could help you a bit more, if you could say what level you are, and what level you think you would end at.

also remember to get improved grapple.

AstralFire
2008-09-29, 08:45 AM
Those're nice stats but... you're still gonna suck. MAD is probably the smallest of the monk's issues. I mean, just to clarify, I'm not just saying that you could get a better character with those stats. You admitted as much yourself. It's that you're still gonna suck unless you really, really out-optimize the rest of your party. Monk also suffers from its abilities being confused, weak and non-synergistic in addition to MAD; the other PHB MADers, the Paladin and the Ranger, got a nice boost from Spell Compendium to shore up their issues on two of those fronts.

None of the monk "add this weapon to FoB!" feats are very any good, and they're even worse if you waste a proficiency on them first. If you're really set on getting a spear, EWP the Greatspear from CW. It's STILL not worth a feat, but it's better than the Longspear and can be used for any longspear feats. A one level dip in Fighter (if you're obeying monk multiclass rules, take the Fighter level first) either way is the preferable way to handle getting those feats. I forget if Decisive Strike, the alternative class feature to FoB in PHB II, uses only monk weapons or not. If it doesn't, then use that and don't get the FoB feat. It's actually a worse class feature but you'd get more usage out of it in that case, at least.

But I'd go for getting a larger size, instead.

Flurry+Power Attack really isn't worth it since you need to lose at least 2 points of BAB to have a half-decent flurry and, what... 3 to have the greater flurry; the Fighter can do the same thing better with the Slashing Flurry feat from PHB II and they don't bother because they need that Attack Bonus to enhance their Power Attack tons.

JupiterPaladin
2008-09-29, 08:57 AM
I've tried every way to boost the Monk class in my own campaigns, and it just doesn't work. My last Monk intentionally made a Mantis Leap into a Red Dragon's mouth, just so he could roll up a new character. :smalleek:

AstralFire
2008-09-29, 09:01 AM
I've tried every way to boost the Monk class in my own campaigns, and it just doesn't work. My last Monk intentionally made a Mantis Leap into a Red Dragon's mouth, just so he could roll up a new character. :smalleek:

Unarmed Swordsage!

Anyway, I'm sure you can fix Monks; it just requires being willing to do it with a hammer rather than a mere 'boost'. The boost is the lazy man's balance and it only works when the thing being balanced is not very off tilt. I have a few ideas for fixing them but I've never worked it out thanks to the existence of the UA Swordsage.

EDIT: Also, the Monk's strong point is durability. Built properly, a monk is probably the hardest non-Wizard class to kill if it's trying to just stay alive. If you want to play your monk to the strength of harassing casters, tripping and higher damage - proactivity to keep them focused on you - will be your friend.

Darrin
2008-09-29, 09:05 AM
For skills, I've gone primarily with stealth, mobility, and perception. So, thoughts? Anything I could be doing better?


Can you gain simple weapon proficiency with another feat, such as Militia or Otherworldly? Would a dip into another class work? Psychic warrior might be the best dip: proficient with all weapons, bonus feat, and a psionic power such as expansion or beast claws.

Another option: you have to wait a lot longer for it, but take some levels in Planar Monk, and pick up Planar Touchstone to link to the Catalogues of Enlightenment. Pick up the War domain, and pick a deity with longspear as a favored weapon. This gives you martial weapon proficiency and weapon focus for only one feat instead of two. But Serpent Strike *requires* Simple Weapon Proficiency... what a pain.

Does it have to be a longspear? "Pole Fighter" in the Dragon Compendium is similar to Serpent Strike, but any polearm can be used, if you're looking for a trip build or something exotic:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Pole_Fighter,DC1

If it doesn't have to be a pole-arm or two-handed weapon, then consider Unorthodox Flurry with a light weapon:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Unorthodox_Flurry,DC1

You'll need pounce or something like it to make the most of your longspear flurry. Travel Devotion or Psicrown of the Evader can do in a pinch. Normally I'd say Shape Soulmeld and Bind Least Chakra to pick up Sphynx Claws (pounce with natural weapons) but that won't work with your longspear. Longspear is a two-handed weapon, so you can Power Attack with it for damage multipliers, but Leap Attack and Flurry won't work together without pounce. Does it have to be a changeling? A shifter can get pounce via Weretouched Master.

If you're going down the Pierce Magical Concealment route, dip one level of Warlock or Dragonfire Adept for Darkness at will, and pick up Blend into Shadows (Drow of the Underdark) for Hide in Plain Sight. Pierce Magical Concealment lets you ignore the 20% miss chance from magical darkness. Check Person_Man's "Adept of Darkness" for more ideas:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352

Weiser_Cain
2008-09-29, 09:15 AM
For some reason this cried out for Druid to me. That or Master Transmogrifist.

Kaihaku
2008-09-29, 09:17 AM
Those're nice stats but... you're still gonna suck. MAD is probably the smallest of the monk's issues. I mean, just to clarify, I'm not just saying that you could get a better character with those stats. You admitted as much yourself. It's that you're still gonna suck unless you really, really out-optimize the rest of your party. Monk also suffers from its abilities being confused, weak and non-synergistic in addition to MAD; the other PHB MADers, the Paladin and the Ranger, got a nice boost from Spell Compendium to shore up their issues on two of those fronts.

Hence this thread, I want to "out-optimize" to the point where the Monk doesn't suck. Not shine brilliantly, just not suck. The class might be terrible but with above average rolls and smart choices I think almost any class can hit "average". Plus, it's Eberron so it's not like people are power gaming and neither am I really. I think it's a modest goal and MAD may be the smallest issue, as you say, but it's still neatly out of the way for once. I'll look into other options for feats, I wasn't too thrilled with the simple weapon proficiency dip for the longspear but I'd like to keep a reach weapon. I'm not big on Monks using unarmed strike as a primary weapon, it makes a good back-up though.

Darrin, interesting. I'd prefer reach and two-handed, but the second option does look interesting as well. Actually, all of that is really interesting. I'll have to ponder it some big changes.

Weiser Cain, yeah, I could have done either of those or something else along those lines. What a challenge those wouldn't have been.

AstralFire
2008-09-29, 09:38 AM
If you'd prefer using a reach weapon, then off the top of my head you may want to get a Greatspear or Spiked Chain with Fighter levels, ditch monk pretty early - try to leave at 4, 6, 8 or 9 - then Exotic Weapon Master (go get some more Fighter if necessary to make ranks).

Exotic Flurry isn't a bad ability at all as long as you make at least 17 BAB, and there's some other nice stuff there too.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-29, 09:46 AM
Well, a monk that doesn't suck... hmm...

That would have to be a monk with as few monk levels as possible. The first few levels of monk actually aren't all that bad. I mean, that's how people get hooked. They get all these cool bonus feats at level 1 and 2, neat unarmed class features, Wisdom AC bonus, and evasion. Those are all good!

Unfortunately, the rules start charging more XP for less and less. You get still mind which is enough to feed your fix, but by the time you hit your level 6 bonus feat you're starting to get the class feature withdrawal shakes. You start making absurd deals with yourself, saying "It'll be ok once I get Diamond Soul" or "They'll be afraid of me once I have Quivering Palm." Once you've hit the point of contemplating how Perfect Self makes you invulnerable to anyone not wielding a magic weapon at level 20, it's all over.

So really, just grab a few levels of monk and pick a PrC to go to. UA Swordsage and Shadow Sun Ninja can be very awesome for ex-Monks.

jcsw
2008-09-29, 09:54 AM
If you intend to use the longspear flurry often, Skewer Foe from Champions of Ruin (A faerun book) adds +1d6 damage to every attack beyond the first with a piercing weapon. It requires BAB +6 though, so as a monk this isn't really available soon. (There's a similar feat for bludgeoning weapons, if you feel so inclined.)

Alternatively try getting your DM to let you use the monk from Paizo's 3.75... along with some of the monk feats there...

Weiser_Cain
2008-09-29, 10:04 AM
Weiser Cain, yeah, I could have done either of those or something else along those lines. What a challenge those wouldn't have been.

It might if you still took some monk levels, or I don't know your DM was doing his job.

Person_Man
2008-09-29, 10:06 AM
Do you want to go Monk 20, or Monk/PrC/PrC? The advice people give will be much different based on your answer.

If you go Monk 20, my suggestions are Ancestral Weapon, Knock-Down, Weakening Touch, Freezing the Lifeblood, and Item Familiar.

Ancestral Weapon (Book of Exalted Deeds) basically gives you +50% gp, since you can just invest magic items you find into your ancestral weapon, instead of having to sell them for 50% of their listed price. Most of your attacks should be with this weapon - unarmed strikes should be used for delivering Stunning Fist attacks. I'd pick any special Monk weapon over a longspear, because I think Weapon Focus and Serpent Strike are a waste of two feats to accomplish what you basically get for free. If you want to spend 2 feats to get reach, take Aberration Blood + Inhuman Reach or Willing Deformity + Deformity Tall. Either combo will add +5 to your natural reach. Or as you mentioned, just have a friend cast Enlarge Person. That way you can always include a Stunning attack as part of your attack routine when you need it.

Knock-Down (in the SRD under the divine section) gives you a free Trip attack whenever you deal 10+ points of damage. This will give you some battlefield control.

Weakening Touch (Comp Warrior) trades a Stunning Fist and your damage for one unarmed attack to impose a -6 penalty to Str for 1 minute. Normally this is a waste, since the enemy will be dead before they get to counter attack. But the nice thing about it is that there's no Save. So use it on BBEG to debuff them, or on very small enemies (Will o Wisp, Pixies, etc) to quickly take them out. Tag team with the party Rogue with Crippling Strike. Make sure your Ancestral Weapon also has the Spell Storing capacity, and have a party caster put in any debuff that also deals a Str penalty. Remember, if you get your enemy's Str to 0, he's paralyzed.

Freezing the Lifeblood (Comp Warrior) uses a Stunning Fist use to make your enemy Save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. This is your most powerful weapon, but you don't qualify for it until high levels.

Item Familiar (Unearthed Arcana) is just a powerful magic item that anyone can get. But for the most part its only useful at high level.

The math behind Power Attack is troublesome for any class with MAD and less then full BAB. Also you should know that when you Flurry, your attacks always count as being one handed. So you won't be able to use Flurry with two handed Power Attack. So I'd avoid it.

Darkstalker is a great feat (and potentially game breaking) if you have Hide in Plain Site. If you don't, then its mostly a roleplaying thing. As soon as you get into combat you won't be hidden anymore, so its of limited use. So I'd skip it unless you can pick up HiPS somewhere.

Mage Slayer is nice on paper, but from personal experience I've found that it wasn't helpful. Virtually every party I've played in has had a moderately optimized full BAB class (Leap Attack + Shock Trooper) in it, which can kill any non-boss enemy in 1 turn. So unless you're playing without one in your party, I've found that its usually pointless to take Mage Slayer unless your DM is fond of using multiple casters against you. Either your full BAB friend will kill the enemy caster on the first turn, or the DM has decided that the boss will be powerful enough to last multiple rounds, in which case Mage Slayer probably won't help (because the enemy will be flying, or have Greater Invisibility, or have a ridiculous Concentration check, etc).


If you want to go Monk/PrC/PrC, then we can pretty much do anything. What would you like to focus on?

Darrin
2008-09-29, 10:22 AM
Darrin, interesting. I'd prefer reach and two-handed, but the second option does look interesting as well. Actually, all of that is really interesting. I'll have to ponder it some big changes.

If you want reach, try the kusari gama in the DMG. One-handed light reach weapon, so you can use Unorthodox Flurry with it. And later, Greater Flurry. Carry one in each hand, and you can TWF with it. You'll need some bonus damage... there are a variety of ways to pick up sneak attack damage. Martial Study + Martial Stance could give you Assassin's Stance. After that, if you wanted to stay a pure monk... Aescetic Rogue might let you advance sneak attack damage even if you didn't have rogue levels. Hmm... not a lot of decent ways to add Wis bonus to damage.

Oh, make sure you check the variant fighting styles in UA/Dragon. Overwhelming Attack (Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush) leads right into Shock Trooper if you want to stick with a two-handed longspear. Passive Way (Combat Expertise, Improved Trip) is probably best for a trip build. Wushu (Dragon #334, Improved Initiative, Power Attack) also looks like all sorts of goodness. If that's not working for you, the Martial Monk variant (Dragon #310) lets you pick any fighter bonus feats.

Telonius
2008-09-29, 10:35 AM
Suggestion for your Monk ... find some way to fly. I don't care if it's through items, skullduggery, begging your caster, or bribing the DM, just find some way to fly. Mage Slayer is a total waste if a Wizard is up in the sky, and you have no way to get up to him.

DeathQuaker
2008-09-29, 10:42 AM
Well, a monk that doesn't suck... hmm...

That would have to be a monk with as few monk levels as possible.

I wouldn't necessarily go that far, but for this concept (I'm all for building concepts rather than classes), multiclassing is a solid option.

Take 2 levels of Fighter first. You get your proficiency for free that way and have a couple bonus feats to optimize your combat trees a little further. Optionally, go all the way to Fighter 4 to get Weapon Specialization in Longspear (or whatever weapon you ultimately choose based on others' suggestions). A little extra damage won't hurt, especially with what's ultimately a monk build. OTOH, you may not want that many levels so you can level up Flurry faster.

For your Fighter levels, build up Jump for its Synergy to Tumble, and then focus on Tumble when you take the monk class.

After your Fighter levels, go all the way monk--get Flurry leveled and get your other Monk special abilities up there. Especially if you're going Mage hunter, getting that Evasion and Improved Evasion will be great, especially overall w/ your good saving throws.

Since reach and mobility are important things for your idea, I'd probably go the Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack route to help you get out of tough maneuvering situations. You'll AOO everyone else and barely be hit by others' AOOs. (Come to think of it, Combat Reflexes too, since you're going to work on threatening a lot).

At higher levels, I don't know how "uber" this would be, but might be at least fun to make your spear a Dancing one. Then in cases where your Mage-hunting abilities aren't required/useful, you can release your spear to attack separately while you Unarmed Strike everyone.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-29, 11:12 AM
For some reason this cried out for Druid to me. That or Master Transmogrifist.

Like a Monk 2/Druid 18?
Yeah, that one is pretty neat. You gain unarmed damage while wild Shaped and good Stats because you are a Druid.

graymachine
2008-09-29, 12:09 PM
Kensai is a good PrC for monks. Aside from enchanting an item (either your fists or your spear), you can boost your strength by +8 at a DC 15 Concentration check, and you can replace your Fort save with a Concentration check. I think it also gets full BaB and a good will save. Abandoning the whole spear thing, Flurry of Blows, Two-Weapon Fighting with (Kensai-enchanted) Fists of Wounding means that you will be doing 1-3 points of CON damage each round.

graymachine
2008-09-29, 12:52 PM
If you can swing raising your INT or CHA a little (headband or cloak +2), I would suggest Monk/Wizard (or Monk/Sorcerer depending on you preference) at minimum levels to enter Enlightened Fist, then take levels in it until you can cast the maximum level spell limited by your casting stat. Then go into Kensai. Flurry of Blows damage, plus 1-3 CON damage, plus casting a Scorching Ray through your fists makes for fun times. Plus you'll be able to Enlarge yourself, taking care of your reach issue.

LibraryOgre
2008-09-29, 01:47 PM
"I want to use the monk class in a way that doesn't suck."
"Whatever you do, don't use a monk."

Can we try to be useful here, folks?

However, that said, you might try looking at the Forgotten Realms' "Unapproachable East". It has a +1 BAB PrC that's oriented around unarmed combat and, IIRC, allows all simple and martial weapons to be used in a Flurry (been a while since I looked at it, though.

Learnedguy
2008-09-29, 01:56 PM
Suggestion for your Monk ... find some way to fly. I don't care if it's through items, skullduggery, begging your caster, or bribing the DM, just find some way to fly. Mage Slayer is a total waste if a Wizard is up in the sky, and you have no way to get up to him.

Alternatively, invest in items that'll force the magician down again:smallamused:

AstralFire
2008-09-29, 02:00 PM
"I want to use the monk class in a way that doesn't suck."
"Whatever you do, don't use a monk."

Can we try to be useful here, folks?

However, that said, you might try looking at the Forgotten Realms' "Unapproachable East". It has a +1 BAB PrC that's oriented around unarmed combat and, IIRC, allows all simple and martial weapons to be used in a Flurry (been a while since I looked at it, though.

Most of the 'don't use a monk' comments have also come with some other tips. =p

List of PrCs
Aglarondan Griffonrider
Black Flame Zealot
Durthan
Master of Yuirwood
Nar Demonbinder
Nentyar Hunter
Raumathari Battlemage
Runescarred Berserker
Shou Disciple
Talantor Blightlord
Teflammar Shadowlord
Thayan Slaver

Do you recall which one of those it is?


Alternatively, invest in items that'll force the magician down again:smallamused:

Probably better to learn how to fly in case you're dealing with Outsider Winged Aasimar/Tieflings or Raptorans. Not a lot of ways as a non-caster to bring down non-magical flyers. Bolos, maybe, but the tripping and flight rules are a little arcane.

LibraryOgre
2008-09-29, 02:22 PM
Most of the 'don't use a monk' comments have also come with some other tips. =p

The vast majority of which are "Here's something to use other than a monk. :smallbiggrin:



Shou Disciple

Do you recall which one of those it is?

This was it. 1/1 BAB face-hitter.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-29, 03:00 PM
The vast majority of which are "Here's something to use other than a monk. :smallbiggrin:

True enough!

Forgive us, though. Building something that doesn't suck out of a primary monk is like using primarily milk chocolate to make something that's not going to kill a diabetic. The easiest and most elegant solution is to mix in a lot of good stuff in place of the bad stuff. There's a lot of classes you could choose that would make a monk not be bad, but then it kinda stops being Monk.

I think I need to know the definition of a Monk that doesn't suck in this situation. I mean, if the rest of the party doesn't optimize and the monk does, it can kinda even out. Don't forget the Monks Belt magic item, and Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick feats from Tome of Battle.

Snap Kick is what Flurry of Blows should be like because it gives an extra attack on a standard action, not just a full attack like FoB. It lets the monk actually use it's mobility and unarmed damage together. Could also be fun with Spring Attack.

AstralFire
2008-09-29, 03:08 PM
Snap Kick is awesome, but Kaihaku doesn't use ToB and he wants to use a reach weapon, which would cause problems with Snap Kick.

Superior Unarmed Strike is a pretty useless feat unless you're just pumping Flurry damage, the extra damage just isn't worth a feat. Better than Weapon Spec, but that's not saying much. Added that he doesn't want his primary stuff to be Unarmed and...

Similarly, I don't think Monk's Belt is that good of an item unless you aren't a monk and pump Wis anyway. +1 AC and some damage for 13k GP where you could put a belt of strength or that uber belt of +6 to Str/Con/Dex is painful. Now, for a Cleric, Druid, Geomancer, Psychic Warrior? Sure.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-29, 03:11 PM
Snap Kick is awesome, but Kaihaku doesn't use ToB and he wants to use a reach weapon, which would cause problems with Snap Kick.

Superior Unarmed Strike is a pretty useless feat though, the extra damage just isn't worth a feat. Better than Weapon Spec, but that's not saying much. Added that he doesn't want his primary stuff to be Unarmed and...

Similarly, I don't think Monk's Belt is that good of an item unless you aren't a monk and pump Wis anyway. +1 AC and some damage for 13k GP where you could put a belt of strength or that uber belt of +6 to Str/Con/Dex is painful.

You do realize you can combine belt, right? yes, the DMg says it will cost 1.5 more but it will be worth it.

AstralFire
2008-09-29, 03:13 PM
You do realize you can combine belt, right? yes, the DMg says it will cost 1.5 more but it will be worth it.

Yes, but the level at which you get that kind of disposable income seems to be out of his immediate reach, given that he's only got two level feats listed as 'taken' in the OP.

Devils_Advocate
2008-09-29, 03:29 PM
The first few levels of monk actually aren't all that bad. I mean, that's how people get hooked. They get all these cool bonus feats at level 1 and 2, neat unarmed class features, Wisdom AC bonus, and evasion. Those are all good!

Unfortunately, the rules start charging more XP for less and less. You get still mind which is enough to feed your fix, but by the time you hit your level 6 bonus feat you're starting to get the class feature withdrawal shakes. You start making absurd deals with yourself, saying "It'll be ok once I get Diamond Soul" or "They'll be afraid of me once I have Quivering Palm." Once you've hit the point of contemplating how Perfect Self makes you invulnerable to anyone not wielding a magic weapon at level 20, it's all over.
Heh heh... The funny thing is, there are more than a few martial classes that are rather front-loaded. So you can take a few levels of several classes, and make a build something like Monk 2/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Swashbuckler 3/etc., and top it off with a Prestige Class, and wind up with something playable to excellent. But you don't want to take more than a few levels of any base class in such a build, or you start eating hella XP penalties.

(Fractional BAB and saves help with a build like this. Of course, that rule is supposed to eliminate the wackiness of how BAB and saves from multiple classes normally add together, so please, calculate saves how you ought to, regardless of what the book says -- you should only get that extra +2 to a save once. A Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 1/Druid 1 ought to have a base Fort save of +4, the same as a character who took 4 levels in one class with a good Fort save. Giving him a base Fort save of +10 is even worse than giving him +8; it actually goes against the basic purpose of the rule, which is to de-stupidify base saves for multiclass characters. It was just poorly formulated.)

The punchline being that XP penalties are theoretically supposed to counteract the front-loadedness of classes by discouraging multiclassing.

ocato
2008-09-29, 03:50 PM
Well, you said no ToB, so the flurry-tapper is out. Personally I think that the monk, while a fun and flavorful idea, is typically not up to snuff. I hate saying that but it's kind of true. To be honest, the best fix I can think of is one I've been kicking around in my head. It's similar to the fighting styles in UA, but with a few extra abilities, some of which are based on being 'focused' (think psionic focus without psionics) and full base attack. The different fighting styles would give various bonus feats/abilities and uses for your focus and maybe access to a new weapon as a 'monk' weapon. I dunno, it's still in the mental phases. As for what you want, I'm thinking you'll need some PrCs or dips or else you're going to slip behind.

Flickerdart
2008-09-29, 04:16 PM
How suitable your name XD

Taking Monk 2/X 2/Y 2/Z 2, etc. isn't a Monk. It's an abomination that either sucks or reeks of cheese, and whichever way, it's going to make anybody with class levels in one class want to strangle you. In character, because you disrespect every single discipline.

That makes for a fair backstory, though.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-29, 04:32 PM
How suitable your name XD

Taking Monk 2/X 2/Y 2/Z 2, etc. isn't a Monk. It's an abomination that either sucks or reeks of cheese, and whichever way, it's going to make anybody with class levels in one class want to strangle you. In character, because you disrespect every single discipline.

That makes for a fair backstory, though.

Mua hahaha! I have a Changeling Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem) 1/ Swashbuckler 1/ Crusader 1/ Duskblade 1/ Warshaper 4/ Chameleon 2. Take that (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeThat) Barbarians, Swashbucklers, Crusaders, Duskblades, and the multiclass XP penalty! I have nothing but disrespect for second levels of base classes! :smallbiggrin:

monty
2008-09-29, 04:37 PM
That really depends on how you see class levels. A lot of people think of classes as primarily a set of skills, so it makes sense to multiclass a lot if your character is moderately competent at all of the things those classes do.

Flickerdart
2008-09-29, 04:38 PM
Mua hahaha! I have a Changeling Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem) 1/ Swashbuckler 1/ Crusader 1/ Duskblade 1/ Warshaper 4/ Chameleon 2. Take that (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeThat) Barbarians, Swashbucklers, Crusaders, Duskblades, and the multiclass XP penalty! I have nothing but disrespect for second levels of base classes! :smallbiggrin:
And then every single Barbarian, Swashbuckler, Crusader, and Duskblade comes to kill you with pointy swords, a handful at a time and all the rest later on. When you've killed all of them, you realize there's no way you can have any more because who's going to train them? The person with 1 level in the class?

mostlyharmful
2008-09-29, 04:40 PM
Mua hahaha! I have a Changeling Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem) 1/ Swashbuckler 1/ Crusader 1/ Duskblade 1/ Warshaper 4/ Chameleon 2. Take that (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeThat) Barbarians, Swashbucklers, Crusaders, Duskblades, and the multiclass XP penalty! I have nothing but disrespect for second levels of base classes! :smallbiggrin:

Seems a perfectly reasonable build to me, a pc that wanders around getting into all kinds of things and learning a bit here and a bit there, all tied together in their backstory hopefully.

It's the guys that take a single class and dedicate their entire lives to it, totally excluding everything around them, that get me. Take, for instance, your typical Big Dumb Fighter, put him through the wringer in an urban campaign which features socail situations and politics. It seems a little far fetched that he's going to get anouther level of Fighter with its focus on climbing and riding over, say, bard or rogue given what he's been doing.
If he stays in fighter all his career he'll never work out how to be a sneaky oppertunist, how to navigate in the wild, how to talk to pretty girls, whatever....

For classes with an incharacter focus like perfecting their magic use or a large in class skill list and a whole lot of build options like a rogue then fine, you don't really need to multiclass. For most of the full base attack classes (yes, even ranger and paladin to my mind) multiclassing is the only way of building an interesting capable character half the time, that's just a product of their narrow focus.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-29, 04:53 PM
And then every single Barbarian, Swashbuckler, Crusader, and Duskblade comes to kill you with pointy swords, a handful at a time and all the rest later on. When you've killed all of them, you realize there's no way you can have any more because who's going to train them? The person with 1 level in the class?

I say bring them on! I'd tell the Swashbucklers to bring bucklers to swash, but they have no buckler proficiency. :smalltongue:


Seems a perfectly reasonable build to me, a pc that wanders around getting into all kinds of things and learning a bit here and a bit there, all tied together in their backstory hopefully.

It's the guys that take a single class and dedicate their entire lives to it, totally excluding everything around them, that get me. Take, for instance, your typical Big Dumb Fighter, put him through the wringer in an urban campaign which features socail situations and politics. It seems a little far fetched that he's going to get anouther level of Fighter with its focus on climbing and riding over, say, bard or rogue given what he's been doing.
If he stays in fighter all his career he'll never work out how to be a sneaky oppertunist, how to navigate in the wild, how to talk to pretty girls, whatever....

For classes with an incharacter focus like perfecting their magic use or a large in class skill list and a whole lot of build options like a rogue then fine, you don't really need to multiclass. For most of the full base attack classes (yes, even ranger and paladin to my mind) multiclassing is the only way of building an interesting capable character half the time, that's just a product of their narrow focus.

:thog: Hooray! Thog reference!

Eldritch_Ent
2008-09-29, 05:06 PM
And then every single Barbarian, Swashbuckler, Crusader, and Duskblade comes to kill you with pointy swords, a handful at a time and all the rest later on. When you've killed all of them, you realize there's no way you can have any more because who's going to train them? The person with 1 level in the class?

Not really, this is making a lot of assumptions.
First, that people would attack someone for multiclassing. (They wouldn't. That would be like a mathematician shooting someone for taking a college math course but not getting a math major. If anything, they'd be pleased that they at least know SOMETHING of their trade.)
Second, that people would KNOW you multiclassed. (They don't- that's OOC info unless you're playing a campaign with a weak or absent fourth wall.)
Third, that people need training to gain class levels. (Well, they need EXP, but they don't neccisarily need to even ever see another member of their class to progress except certain RP-heavy PRCs.)
Fourth, just because something is unorthodox or powerful doesn't mean it's cheesy. (I think it's called the Stormwind Fallacy.)
Fifth, Lots of front-end abilities aren't actually that powerful. (I mean, they could be in conjunction with good planning, but remember, a lot of classes- especially spellcasters- gain their power in an increasing curve. Missing out on higher level abilities, especially spells and powers, HURTS. Even with powergaming multiclassing antics, a fighter/rogue type can't compare at higher levels... Most of the time at least.)




That said, if you want to make a good monk, ask your GM to let you take Hidden Talent- Expansion as one of your first level feats, then work to qualify for Fist of the Forest for the extra phantom size classes.

Demons_eye
2008-09-29, 05:08 PM
2 Levels of monk//4 levels of city bralwer barbarian/Fist of the forest 3/druken master 10/1X

Bobo the hobo

He can TwF with unarmed strike rage and use improve weapons for unarmed +1d12

Lastly get monks belt. SuS (ToB) Improved narutal attack.

Maybe last level can be blood claw master to get the minus on TwF down

AdamSmasher
2008-09-29, 05:21 PM
I don't see why monks take so much crap. I really don't.

I ALWAYS make monks and I've made people CRY in the PvP arenas. Half of my DMs won't let me use them anymore.

What you want to do:

Kalashtar
Use a CHAOS MONK (it's a variant)
Psionic Fist prestige class
Improved Natural Attack
Ectoplasmic Fist
Combat Copertise
more combat expertise
Empty Hand Mastery
Use a Monk's Belt
Take that 17 out of strength and put it in constitution
Take intuitive attack (And max out your wisdom)
A solitary rogue level couldn't hurt, for utility.
Carry a spiked chain for disarming and out of melee range (you don't need the feats, they can't AoO from a range)


And, for the love of god, don't use a weapon. Don't. Just don't. DON'T!

Once you have the money, I suggest getting a necklace of natural weapons (+1 Brilliant Energy) and getting +5 greater magic fang permanencied on to your unarmed strike.

streakster
2008-09-29, 05:26 PM
I don't see why monks take so much crap. I really don't.

I ALWAYS make monks and I've made people CRY in the PvP arenas. Half of my DMs won't let me use them anymore.

What you want to do:

Kalashtar
Use a CHAOS MONK (it's a variant)
Psionic Fist prestige class
Improved Natural Attack
Ectoplasmic Fist
Combat Copertise
more combat expertise
Empty Hand Mastery
Use a Monk's Belt
Take that 17 out of strength and put it in constitution
Take intuitive attack (And max out your wisdom)
A solitary rogue level couldn't hurt, for utility.
Carry a spiked chain for disarming and out of melee range (you don't need the feats, they can't AoO from a range)


And, for the love of god, don't use a weapon. Don't. Just don't. DON'T!

Once you have the money, I suggest getting a necklace of natural weapons (+1 Brilliant Energy) and getting +5 greater magic fang permanencied on to your unarmed strike.

So the ultimate Monk build involves no actual levels of the Monk class?

That sounds about right.

Also: Hooray, Monk thread! How long till we have the monk using UMD?

monty
2008-09-29, 05:38 PM
So the ultimate Monk build involves no actual levels of the Monk class?

That sounds about right.

Also: Hooray, Monk thread! How long till we have the monk using UMD?

Well, since Giacomo is still gone IIRC, it would probably have taken a while, if at all. Now that you brought it up, though, it's only a matter of time.

AdamSmasher
2008-09-29, 05:43 PM
A monk variant is still a monk. And a monk prestige class with monk base levels is still a monk.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-29, 05:48 PM
A monk variant is still a monk. And a monk prestige class with monk base levels is still a monk.

Nice try. Have any bridges to sell me next?

Variant monk isn't a monk. At least not the PHB Monk class: few people talk about third party monks, Wizards, etc.

streakster
2008-09-29, 05:50 PM
A monk variant is still a monk. And a monk prestige class with monk base levels is still a monk.

Chaos Monks gain different abilities than a Monk. Thus, they have a different power level. While still low-tier, a Chaos Monk is not as weak as a monk.

Also, if a variant class is still a class, then Clerics are poor fighters because of the Cloistered Cleric variant.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-29, 05:53 PM
A monk variant is still a monk. And a monk prestige class with monk base levels is still a monk.

That's not fair! Monk PrC's and Monk variants usually don't always suck nearly as much as the Monk base class does. Some of them are actually very good, like UA Swordsage. Now how are we supposed to tell a good Monk from a bad Monk? It's not like they are color coded like dragons or wear ruby slippers to let us know. :smallamused:

Rei_Jin
2008-09-29, 05:54 PM
I built a barbarian that uses unarmed strikes, and can beat the snot out of a Monk. Does that count? :smalltongue:

Kaihaku
2008-09-29, 05:57 PM
There's a lot for me to sort through and it's going to take awhile but right off the bat...


Also: Hooray, Monk thread! How long till we have the monk using UMD?

Never. Next point, I'm either going straight Monk or Monk + 1 PRC. As someone else pointed out, if I'm going to dance around taking a level of this and a level of that, then it's not really a Monk. Also, while I appreciate the "Monks will always utterly suck no matter what ever" comments, there are a lot of optimizers on this forum and I don't see how it's suddenly impossible for them to come up with something that doesn't suck. Again, I didn't ask to make a Monk who was good or great, I just said a Monk who doesn't suck.

Sigh, Monk is one of the two core classes I've never played. I'd like to play one at least once and I'd like to play one that doesn't suck.

Additionally, starting level is 5. I might remove the Mage Slayer path and the Serpent Strike as suggested but first I need to read over and look up the material in this thread more carefully.

Thanks for the feedback.

monty
2008-09-29, 05:58 PM
Also, if a variant class is still a class, then Clerics are poor fighters because of the Cloistered Cleric variant.

I agree with the point you're making, but a Cloistered Cleric isn't necessarily a poor fighter. Divine Power makes it as good as a cleric minus some armor (which can be compensated for with magic) and one HP average per level, and it can be considerably better if you have Knowledge Devotion.

AstralFire
2008-09-29, 06:01 PM
Okay: What's more important to you, playing a monk that doesn't suck in general, or do you have a concept you're trying to stick to?

Making a straight monk that's a reach AoO monster is a little bit difficult and I'm pretty sure that that is doomed to true suck no matter what optimizing you're doing. There -are- more generally optimized monk builds for sure though, yes. But what it looks like you've been asking for specifically, when you throw in the 'no other base class' bit, is either impossible or very very difficult. I admit I'm no Tempest Stormwind, Eldariel, Tleilaxu G, Caelic, etc, but I don't think straight monk reach AoO is possible at any acceptable level without 3rd party.

streakster
2008-09-29, 06:07 PM
My serious suggestion would be to enter the Psionic Fist PrC as soon as possible, and stay there.

Grab Expansion and some natural weapon enhancers. Enjoy!

tarbrush
2008-09-29, 06:07 PM
Raging Paladin Monk (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-723308)
Monk Guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=48573)

These threads would seem relevant to your interests.

Also Shou Disciple would seem to be right up your alley, as it's very monky, and is heavily based on beating peoples kidneys out throught their nose(s).

Rei_Jin
2008-09-29, 06:20 PM
I'm either going straight Monk or Monk + 1 PRC. As someone else pointed out, if I'm going to dance around taking a level of this and a level of that, then it's not really a Monk. Also, while I appreciate the "Monks will always utterly suck no matter what ever" comments, there are a lot of optimizers on this forum and I don't see how it's suddenly impossible for them to come up with something that doesn't suck. Again, I didn't ask to make a Monk who was good or great, I just said a Monk who doesn't suck.

Well, it depends on what you want to do with the monk as to how effective he can be at his role.

A monk will NEVER, unless optimised to obscene levels, be able to serve as the primary fighter in a party. He can, however, serve as a very good scout, especially if you make the decision to put him into the roll of party rogue.

As an example, if you built your character like this...

Human Rogue1/Monk5
Human Bonus Feat: Able Learner (Races of Destiny)
Level 1 Feat: Tactile Trapsmith (Complete Adventurer)
Level 3 Feat: Weapon Finesse (PHB)
Level 6 Feat: Ascetic Rogue

If you give yourself an Int of 10 you can have full ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, and Disable Device. In addition to that, you can sneak at half speed faster than anyone else in the group, allowing you to be an excellent forward scout. If you have an Int of 14, you could max Spot and Listen, or even Tumble and Jump.

Tactile Trapsmith allows you to use your Dex mod in place of your Int mod for Search and Disable Device, as well as giving you no penalty for using those skills when you are unable to see. Great for humans.

You won't be pulling out masses of damage, but you will be very good at your role within the party, as well as being able to pull out some decent damage once you've got a few buffs on you from the party spellcasters.


But...


If you're determined to be a fighter type character, then you need another path to follow.

Using a straight monk, you'll want to take an Orc as your race. +4 to Str is nothing to sneeze at, especially when it comes with no level adjustment. The Minotaur from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting would be better, but most people don't have the book and some DMs don't like it.

Max your strength, and ignore your wisdom. It won't help you in this build. Instead, make your character as tough as possible with your Constitution. Your feats will be the following...

1: Great Fortitude
3: Power Attack
6: Improved Natural Attack

Make sure you have 4 ranks in Handle Animal, even if you have to cross class it. Then, pick up 4 ranks in Survival, again, even if you have to cross class it. This will get you into the Fist of the Forest Prestige Class, which helps out your character immensely.

Constitution to AC? Yes please!
Increase my damage by 2 steps? Yes please!
Feral Stance which gives me +4 Dex?
Scent?
A full BAB for 3 levels?

This should see you keeping up with the other characters nicely.

Kaihaku
2008-09-29, 07:17 PM
Well, it depends on what you want to do with the monk as to how effective he can be at his role.

This raises a good point, what role exactly am I envisioning? I think Monks are best as tactical support. A Monk can reach hard to reach or fleeing enemies before the rest of the party and occupy them until the others arrive. A Monk can occupy critical battle space, with a reach weapon altering the flow of the battlefield and allowing allies room to breath. A Monk can't, blow for blow, match up to a fighter but they can block enemy movement, frustrate enemy plans, hold critical areas, and serve as a solid scout. Monks have good defenses, they should be able to last a couple of rounds on their own, but generally they aren't going to be able to take things down on their own. The role of a Monk is more to occupy, distract, and hinder the enemy until the more offensive members of the party can assist. My Monk, personally, would probably break a lock rather than pick it but, conversely, isn't really an uber melee brawler.


The Minotaur from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting would be better, but most people don't have the book and some DMs don't like it.

I love that book. I've played a Minotaur Fighter/Noble. Mystic, despite being underpowered compared to say Favored Soul, is one of my favorite base classes.

ericgrau
2008-09-29, 07:25 PM
It still seems like you're forcing a square peg in a round hole. If you're going to do all that, you might as well play another class. This is like intentionally multi-classing a caster: It's not so much that the second class of a multi-classed caster sucks (though it might), it's really just you screwing yourself because you're afraid of becoming too powerful. I mean, what keeps you from merely dipping into monk (for 1 level if possible) and filling the rest with something else? Oh, and I am pro-monk, btw, that's not what I'm getting at with this.

Nevertheless, in the spirit of "Let the O.P. do whatever he friggin' wants to do", lemme see if I can help. Swap con and wis. wis < dex < con, ergo, wis < con. Unless you have some kind of prestige class ability that uses wis for a whole lot more than just boosting AC. Don't pick up power attack unless you're sure you can boost your low AB way up high. It won't be worth it if you just miss all the time. Even with a full BAB prestige you'll still be 3 AB behind. I'd pick up a cheap ranged weapon, maybe some MW shurikens. That way if you're far away you can ready an action to disrupt a spellcaster until you can get close. Hopefully it won't be often, but it's a nice option to have. Remember readying an action is a standard action, so you can still take a move action before you ready. And nice skill choices, btw. Those will get you to the caster in the back line.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-29, 07:32 PM
This raises a good point, what role exactly am I envisioning? I think Monks are best as tactical support. A Monk can reach hard to reach or fleeing enemies before the rest of the party and occupy them until the others arrive. A Monk can occupy critical battle space, with a reach weapon altering the flow of the battlefield and allowing allies room to breath. A Monk can't, blow for blow, match up to a fighter but they can block enemy movement, frustrate enemy plans, hold critical areas, and serve as a solid scout. Monks have good defenses, they should be able to last a couple of rounds on their own, but generally they aren't going to be able to take things down on their own. The role of a Monk is more to occupy, distract, and hinder the enemy until the more offensive members of the party can assist. My Monk, personally, would probably break a lock rather than pick it but, conversely, isn't really an uber melee brawler.

So what you're looking to play then, is a monk as defined by the existing material. You don't want to shoe-horn it into any other role, you want to play it as is, recognising that it will never be a primary fighter, or a rogue, etc. It's the 5th wheel of a party in the same way that a Bard is, the two classes just do different jobs.

I know it's cheesy, but look at picking up Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain to go with your bonus feat from level 2 of Combat Reflexes. Max your Dex out, and grab Weapon Finesse. Combine this with Improved Trip from your bonus level 6 feat and you can help control movement in the area. As well, because of the fact that you are a Monk, you still threaten within 5ft as well as 10ft, because you can kick someone in the face and stun them just as effectively as if you'd used your hands.

Stunning Fist is a must, and then grab Improved Grapple as your standard level 1 feat. For a level 6 feat, you've got some flexibility. I'd consider something like Fade Into Violence, Versatile Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, or Superior Unarmed Strike depending on what you'd prefer.

Kaihaku
2008-09-29, 07:36 PM
It still seems like you're forcing a square peg in a round hole. If you're going to do all that, you might as well play another class. This is like intentionally multi-classing a caster: It's not so much that the second class of a multi-classed caster sucks (though it might), it's really just you screwing yourself because you're afraid of becoming too powerful. I mean, what keeps you from merely dipping into monk (for 1 level if possible) and filling the rest with something else? Oh, and I am pro-monk, btw, that's not what I'm getting at with this.

Um, actually I thought I was playing to the Monk and not trying to pretend to be another class?


So what you're looking to play then, is a monk as defined by the existing material. You don't want to shoe-horn it into any other role, you want to play it as is, recognising that it will never be a primary fighter, or a rogue, etc. It's the 5th wheel of a party in the same way that a Bard is, the two classes just do different jobs.

Yeah, that's basically my take on it. The Monk CAN fight and CAN sneak, but it's primary strength is mobility. By not suck, I mean that I want to be able to contribute to the party in a meaningful way, not that I want to make a Monk into a Fighter.


Monk Guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=48573)

These threads would seem relevant to your interests.

Also, thanks for the link, it was an interesting read and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that Monk + Reach weapon = Goodness.

AstralFire
2008-09-29, 11:11 PM
Do note that even in that case, however, the reach weapon is not the primary method of attack as much as an enabler of harassment. You'll probably be stuck using Unarmed as your main source of damage.

Kaihaku
2008-09-29, 11:20 PM
I got caught up in dreams of damage for awhile but, yes, I acknowledge that. It's mainly to harass, limit movement, and hinder casting. Kicking, headbutts...whatever colorful form of unarmed strike will be the primary "damager" most of the time. The reach weapon will be for opportune damage and tactical support like flanking.

new1965
2008-09-30, 08:13 AM
YOu may want to change your weapon school to Kali, Arnis,Escrima .
It gives you Short Sword, Club and Dagger as Monk Weapons so that you can flurry with then and gives you proficiency with Whip and Long Sword

http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf

DeathQuaker
2008-09-30, 09:25 AM
Never. Next point, I'm either going straight Monk or Monk + 1 PRC. As someone else pointed out, if I'm going to dance around taking a level of this and a level of that, then it's not really a Monk.

Realize you probably weren't talking to me, but IF you do decide to go the Longspear route, I still think 2 levels of Fighter amongst ALL OTHER LEVELS MONK would work very well. A level 2 Fighter/Level 18 Monk is still a Monk to me. It's just a Monk who traded Perfect Self for Bonus Feats to be effective earlier on.

Mind that build gimps you on starting skill points, but you get two more feats and don't need to buy proficiency which means three more feats--that, say, qualifies you for something like Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack already at level 5, which supports the whole mobile AOO striker-at-reach concept even better.

(That said, if the GM enforces XP penalities for multiclassing it may not be worth it.)

I do think the level 2 THis/Level 2 That/Level 2 Other Thing etc. is very silly, but multiclassing is as much a tool to be used in character building as anything else as long as it's done reasonably.

What's more important to you at this point? Proving you played a single class monk effectively? Or playing this concept: a fast, mobile martial artist who hunts mages with his spear? Both involve using the monk class, but the latter you may need to be more flexible with the build.

And if you find that it's more important to you to play that one awesome single class monk, realize that you may not be able to effectively build your concept. You may have to choose one or the other.

If what you DO want is a single-class monk who is effective, then yes, as you said you were thinking of, drop the Serpent Strike thing. Focus on what the monk is already good at: being a mobile, unarmed close-combat expert, and forget about making that unarmed combatant good at weapon fighting.

Keep your mobility (boost up Tumble, etc.)--stay as immune as you can to things like AOOs so you can flank easily and get out of harm's reach if the battle turns badly; find a way to boost your Touch AC (can't remember if the Wisdom boost to AC or the Monk AC bonus does that) so things like spellcaster rays don't become a deterrent. Take Improved Grapple at some point (but not as your monk bonus--you want Stunning Strike)--a grappled spellcaster is often a dead one, and with your improved speed, jumping, etc. (and possibly at higher levels, help from Winged Boots or Boots of Levitation as necessary), you should be able to chase those guys down and give them whatfor.

Ask your GM if you can take some PHBII or similar feats that build off of Stunning Strike so at higher levels you can dish out things like energy damage.

Edit: Also, it occurs to me that your race of choice has got bonuses to bluff. If you can spare the skill points, you might take advantage of your race's ability put a few cross class points into Bluff and then take Improved Feint at some point.... reducing your opponents' AC is never a bad thing.

I played in a high level campaign with a monk as our primary meleer... he was fine in close combat but anything at range gave him trouble.... make sure, again, you have ways to utilize your speed, and don't feel bad if at higher levels you need a magic item or two to help with that; that's what magic items are there for. You've got a high dex, so hold on to some shuriken so you can quickly attack things at range when close melee isn't an option.

Whatever you choose to do, good luck. :smallsmile:

Epinephrine
2008-09-30, 09:52 AM
Given that you are planning to use a polearm, I like the Spinning Defense, for style. It's a little weak as feats go, so I'd ask for the DM to play with it a bit for you*, but the image of a monk batting multiple arrows out of the air with a blurring staff/spear is just too cool.

The Ascetic X feats are a nice way to get extra abilities. Ninja and Rogue are nice - I think Ninja abilities blend pretty nicely with Monk.

Elusive Target is great fun, *especially* if you have improved Trip. This can blend well with Scout Skirmish abilities in fact; Scout and Monk are a pretty decent complementary pair, though no Ascetic Scout feat exists.

* Total defense is a completely useless thing to do when you already have combat expertise (a requirement for the ability) - personally, I'd make it a limit of one arrow per point of AC bonus you are deriving from Combat Expertise, or unlimited while in full defense, and provide the +1 AC whenever you use combat expertise OR a full defense.


I like the idea of Monk 14/Scout 6 (or Monk5/Scout5, Monk PrC 10?); it grabs a few nice scout class features and makes for a very mobile attacker. The monk at peace with nature, stepping through the woods without a sound, dancing over pine needles without leaving a trace, and weaving through a debris-strewn battlefield at full speed.

Scout 6 adds:
8+Int skill points/level
Trapfinding
Uncanny Dodge
Trackless Step
Flawless Stride
Scout bonus feat
+2d6 Skirmish damage (move 10'+)
+1 Dodge AC (move 10'+)
+1 Initiative and +1 Fort saves (Battle Fortitude)

Taking Improved Skirmish adds another +2 Dodge AC (move 20'+) and +2d6 skirmish (move 20'+).

Choose Improved Trip as a monk, pick up Elusive Target for the trip synergy, the power attack negation, and the neat ability when flanked (it rquires Dodge and Mobility, but you can afford to grab one of those with the scout bonus feat).

This means that you can move your insanely fast monk movement, with no terrain penalties, through melee combat; those who try to hit you with AoO and miss you get a free trip attack against, and if they go down you can hit them (thanks to Improved Trip), getting your +4d6 skirmish damage if you've moved 20' or more (only +2d6 if you've only moved 10').

Get items that a scout likes (e.g. belt of battle) to be able to use a swift action to move through a group of attackers, knocking them over and hitting them, and then make a full attack against an opponent, hitting with a flurry of blows with +4d6 damage per hit.

Maybe not optimal, but it sounds fun to me. You'd be looking for items that a scout likes, to get move actions as swift actions occasionally or the ability to pounce. Your non-full attacks get a nice buff from skirmish, your full attacks don't suffer too much, and when you can move and make a full attack you deliver a great deal of pain. Since you want to get near casters anyway, you may have to move through AoO (so Mobility/Elusive Target aren't too bad), and you use your AoO that a caster may provoke to make a touch attack to trip him, if he goes down you can get a free attack thanks to the Improved Trip.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-09-30, 10:01 AM
A monk that doesn't such... Hmm... Monk 1/ Druid 19?:smallbiggrin:

DeathQuaker
2008-09-30, 10:14 AM
A monk that doesn't such... Hmm... Monk 1/ Druid 19?:smallbiggrin:

Did you read the OP's request? You're not helping. :smallsmile:

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-30, 10:17 AM
I know you're going pure monk or maybe monk + PrC, but if you really like the idea of a monk with a spear doing effective damage, how about this using a Glaive instead of a spear?

Monk 2/ Warlock 3/ Enlightened Fist X

You'd take the Eldritch Glaive invocation from Dragon Magic and quicken it via Quicken SLA, and ASAP get the Fell Flight invocation and Flyby Attack feat. Now you just swoop into melee and use Eldritch Glaive as a Swift Action and your regular Standard Action as whatever attack you want. I like the idea of mixing in a Repelling Blast (when you finally get Greater invocations) along with Eldritch Chain because it seems monklike to render several enemies prone and flying backwards, but that's just me.

It does require a change of alignment (Lawful Good to Chaotic Good) if you want to be good, but Lawful Evil's can remain the same alignment.

Person_Man
2008-09-30, 11:02 AM
I'm either going straight Monk or Monk + 1 PRC.

Additionally, starting level is 5.

OK, this is very helpful to know. My revised advice:

Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) Monk 6/Disciple of the Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2) X

Dragonborn fufils the dragonblooded requirement for entry into Disciple of the Eye. It also grows wings, which solves the flying enemy problem.

Disciple of the Eye progresses Monk Fast Movement and Flurry of Blows (which is rare for PrC). Most importantly, you get Frightful Attack. It eventually gives you another fear attack, and blindsense (which when combined with Pierce Magical Concealment, permanently removes the Invisibility problem, as well as many other magical buffs). Fear effects from different sources stack. An enemy who fails two Saves is basically screwed. You'll have 3 different sources of Fear attacks, more if you seek out Fear inducing items.

Feats:

Touch of Golden Ice: Book of Exalted Deeds: Every time you hit an Evil enemy with an unarmed attack, they must Save or take Dex 1d4+1 damage. The Save DC is ridiculously low, but at ECL 5ish it still has a reasonable chance of success against most enemies. You can also improve it with the Ability Focus feat, and/or by using anything that debuffs (like fear).

Pharaoh's Fist: Sandstorm: When you make a Stunning Fist attack, it also effects everyone adjacent to your enemy. Not really necessary, but fun.

Knock-Down: SRD: As long as you can ensure that your damage will be 10+ per hit, then this gives you a free Trip on every attack. This is very useful if your enemy keeps trying to run away. All you really is some combination of high Str, a Monk's belt, and/or an amulet of mighty fists. Very do-able.

Frightful Presence: Draconomicon, or Dreadful Wrath: Player's Guide to Faerun: Gives you a dragon's frightful presence. You'll want to switch one of your high stats to Cha, btw.

The down side of this build is that if you come across a non-Evil enemy that is immune to Fear, Stun, and Trip, you're screwed.

The up side is that the vast majority of the things you fight will be subject to at least one of these special attacks.

At ECL 8, you'll have three attacks, plus whatever AoO you can swing. And each attack will potentially force 4-5 Saves/Checks - one for Dex damage, one for Trip, two for Fear, and potentially one for Stun. Although the Fear checks end if your opponent makes a Save, they have the up side of NOT HAVING TO HIT. Just making the attack triggers them, potentially debuffing your enemy and/or making him run away. If you make a full attack against one target, the enemy still has to make 3 Saves vs. Dex damage, 3 opposed checks to avoid being Tripped, 2-6 checks vs. Fear, and a Stunning Fist Save if you feel like overkill (or you want to Stun his adjacent friends). Plus whatever your friend puts in a Spell Storing weapon. (Buy a Wand and have him fill it that way if you have to).

Now, that's certainly not the strongest ECL 5-8ish build I can think of. But it certainly doesn't suck either.

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 11:05 AM
IIRC, Knockdown isn't SRD, it's from Sword and Fist and is 3.0 - it is one of the main reasons I still keep S&F handy (along with the Weapon Master and the Lasher.) It's also really badly broken and a DM may be prone to using it back on the rest of your party in return.

Segial
2008-09-30, 11:25 AM
I build a monk some time ago based on various monk-optimization threads:

Human Lawful Good Monk 12, Fist of the Forest 3, Fist of Zukon 5

STR 14 (18), DEX 12 (14), CON 14 (20), INT 10, WIS 18 (26), CHR 10

Fortitude +20 Reflex +19 Will +23

Baseattack: +15

Hitpoints: 8+11*d8+3*d10+5*d6+100

Armor Class: 37

Skillpoints: 114

Autohypnosis
Balance +5
Concentration +9
Climb +12
Diplomacy
Handle Animals +4
Hide
Jump +5
Listen
Move Silently
Sense Motive
Survival +4
Spot
Swim
Tumble +12

Back on your Feet
Nimble Charge
Extreme Leap
Walk the Walls

Improved Unarmed Strike (1st lvl)
Stunning Fist (1st lvl)
Able Learner (1st lvl)
Power Attack (1st lvl)
Combat Reflexes (2nd lvl)
Great Fortitude (3rd lvl)
Improved Trip (6th lvl)
Wild Talent (6th lvl)
Sun School (9th lvl)
Sacred Vow (12 lvl)
Vow of Powerty (15 lvl)
Nymph's Kiss (16th lvl)
Improved Grapple (18 lvl)
Gift of Faith (18 lvl)
Psionic Fist (20 lvl)
Intuitive Strike (20 lvl)

Armor Class Dodge Bonus (Wisdom)
Armor Class Dodge Bonus +3
Unarmed Strike: 4d6
Fast Movement: +50
Greater Flurry of Blows
Improved Evasion
Still Mind
Ki-Strike (Magic, Lawful)
Purity of Body
Wholeness of Body
Slow Fall 60 Feet
Diamond Body
Abundant Step

Armor Class Exalted Bonus: +10
Exalted Strike +5 (Good)
Ability Score Increase +8/+6/+4 /+2
Damage Reduction 10/Evil
Freedom of Movement
Greater Sustenance
Resistance +3
Deflection Bonus +2
Endure Elements
Mind Shielding
Energy Resistance 15
Natural Armor +2
Regeneration
True Seeing

Armor Class Dodge Bonus (Constitution)
Fast Movement: +10
Feral Trance 2/day
Unarmed Damage Increase
Uncanny Dodge
Untamed Strike (Ghost Touch)
Primal Living
Scent

Expansion
Grip of Iron
Body Adjustment
Psionic Lion’s Charge
Dimension Slide

Power Attack + Greater Flurry of Blows + Psionic Fist + Intuitive Strike + Feral Trance + Exalted Strike + Stunning Fist + Psionic Lion’s Charge for massive melee mayhem.

Improved Grapple + Improved Trip + Expansion + Grip of Iron + Sun School + Intuitive Strike + Abundant Step or Dimension Slide for battlefield control of a single opponent.

Person_Man
2008-09-30, 11:30 AM
IIRC, Knockdown isn't SRD, it's from Sword and Fist and is 3.0 - it is one of the main reasons I still keep S&F handy (along with the Weapon Master and the Lasher.) It's also really badly broken and a DM may be prone to using it back on the rest of your party in return.

Knock-Down appeared in several 3.0 books which all have official 3.5 updates, including Sword and Fist. It's also in the SRD (www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html) in the Divine section, along with Hold the Line, Extra Music, and other common feats.

Whether or not its broken is arguable. It requires +2 BAB, Str 15, and Improved Trip (which also requires Combat Expertise, unless you can get Improved Trip as a bonus feat like the Monk). It also requires a minimum damage to work. So you're not getting it until ECL 3 at the earliest, and realistically many builds probably won't pick it up until ECL 6.

Tripping is an opposed check. So big and/or strong and/or stable enemies are unlikely to be knocked Prone. Now, you can easily overcome this problem with Expansion, a level of Marshal, etc. But you can also choose not to utterly cheese out your Trip abilities, making the feat more reasonable.

But let's assume you do fully optimize it. Being Prone imposes a -4 to melee attacks and AC against melee attacks. Not a huge penalty.

IF you're using a reach weapon, and your enemy doesn't have comparable reach, and your enemy can't cast spells, and your enemy doesn't have any spell-like or supernatural abilities that they can attack with, THEN you can set up a free AoO when your enemy has to stand up. But even then, the FAQ clearly states that you can't Trip an enemy who is standing up from being Prone. So its not until your enemy tries to move in on you that he can be tripped again (something he doesn't have to do, now that he knows your tactic), and potentially locked down in an endless combo.

So at best, Knock-Down is giving you a +4 bonus to hit and AC, a free attack when your enemy stands up, and potentially lets you lock down enemies of the same size or smaller. That's very useful, but not really game breaking.

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 11:36 AM
Huh, it wasn't in d20SRD.org.

The 'not allowing someone to trip on getting up' is a houserule I've long used since I first encountered Knockdown. I just about never check the FAQ, though. That moderates it considerably.

Darrin
2008-09-30, 11:39 AM
Also, thanks for the link, it was an interesting read and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that Monk + Reach weapon = Goodness.

I see three options if you want Reach + Flurry:

1) Neraph (outsider type, LA +0, Planar Handbook p. 12) + Weapon Focus + Pole Fighter (Dragon Compendium). Outsiders are proficient in all simple and martial weapons, so you can pick any polearm and flurry with it. Best choice for a trip build, since you can use a guisarme for +2 on trip attacks. Also best for Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper, since it's a two-handed weapon (someone said PA won't work with flurry, but I don't see why not... you don't get 1.5 on your strength bonus, but PA damage should still multiply). If you're going that route, though, half-orc might be better, since you can pick up the Headlong Rush feat for another damage multiplier. Polearm is also enchantable, but doesn't work well with Pounce (Travel Devotion or Hustle are your best bet).

2) Human + Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kusari Gama (DMG p. 145) + Unorthodox Flurry (Dragon Compendium). Light weapon so finessable, +2 for tripping, and best choice for TWF. Does not work with Power Attack. Since it's a light weapon, there are some Pounce options available via feats (Lion Tribe Warrior, Snow Tiger Berserker). Check with your DM if he'll allow EWP: Spiked Chain to cover Kusari Gama as well, and you might be able to pick up this proficiency with the Planar Touchstone feat I mentioned earlier. In the list of LG Deities 2.0, Tsolorandril has spiked chain as a favored weapon.

3) Human or Neraph + Aberration Blood + Inhuman Reach, AKA "Dhalsim". Turns your unarmed strikes into polearms, so you get the benefit of pumping up your unarmed damage via monk's belt or improved natural attack. You can Power Attack your unarmed strikes, but don't get a two-handed multiplier. Your fists aren't enchantable, but you can get around that with gauntlets (which Neraphim are proficient with). Combine with 1) or 2) above, or a size increase, for even more reach (add Stand Still feat for a lockdown build). You can also pick up Pounce via Lion Tribe Warrior (unarmed strike is a light weapon) or the Sphynx Claws soulmeld (2 feats, Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra). One minor downside: -1 penalty on melee attacks. (If you want to go full-on Dhalsim, become a Dragonborn of Bahumat to get fire breath.)

My recommendation would be option 2) with Lion Tribe Warrior. Reach, Flurry, and Pounce for only three feats.

Something else you might want to consider for a high-mobility build... monks are one of the few classes that have Perform as a class skill, and can easily qualify for Elusive Dance:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Elusive_Dance,Dragon

Pick one target, who now gets no AoOs on you. This allows you to tumble around or even *through* their square. Also works very well with Headlong Rush.

Segial
2008-09-30, 11:43 AM
Fist of Zukon + Expansion gives you reach when you become large.

Person_Man
2008-09-30, 12:46 PM
Oh, its also worth mentioning that you need not Flurry with a reach weapon. You can hold the reach weapon, wield it with two hands, and use it to threaten and provoke AoO, but move in and attack with your unarmed strikes (presumably a lot of kicks, since you're holding a reach weapon in your hands). In this fashion, you still get your full Flurry every round, and you get the extra attacks from AoO. You give up the potential to Trip-lock certain enemies, but that's not really a viable strategy unless you intend to go the Psychic Fist route for Expansion, and even then its ineffective against many enemies.

Fishy
2008-09-30, 12:59 PM
Yes, but why go Fist of Zukon when there's Zerth Cenobite from Complete Psionic? Slightly worse manifesting in exchange for extra actions? I'll take it!

If you like the basic concept of bouncing around the battlefield and ruining everyone's day, I like some combination of Zerth Cenobite and Elocator on a Monk. You get extra move actions, extra standard actions, extra five-foot-steps, Expansion, and teleportation punches of various kinds. Good times.

Wild Talent and Monk 6 qualifies you for ZC, and if you work your way up the Spring Attack tree quickly, you'll be ready for Elocator at level 10. From there, it's just deciding how much of which class you want: ZC 5, 8, 9, and 10 are pretty nifty, as are Elocator 7 and 10.

Person_Man
2008-09-30, 01:16 PM
Yes, but why go Fist of Zukon when there's Zerth Cenobite from Complete Psionic? Slightly worse manifesting in exchange for extra actions? I'll take it!

You get 1 extra action per game day. At ECL 7 its a Move action (the same as Hustle, which you're going to get anyway). At ECL 11 its a Standard action. At ECL 16 its a Full Round action. The other PrC abilities are similarly limited. In addition, Zerth tops out at 27 power points, 5 powers known, and can attain a maximum of 4th level powers.

A Psionic Fist tops out at 71 power points, 10 powers known, and can attain a maximum of 5th level powers.

Now, obviously both options are weaker then a Psion or a Psychic Warrior. But unless you have one combat per game day, the Psionic Fist is clearly more powerful then the Zerth Cenobite.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-30, 01:19 PM
Oh, its also worth mentioning that you need not Flurry with a reach weapon. You can hold the reach weapon, wield it with two hands, and use it to threaten and provoke AoO, but move in and attack with your unarmed strikes (presumably a lot of kicks, since you're holding a reach weapon in your hands). In this fashion, you still get your full Flurry every round, and you get the extra attacks from AoO. You give up the potential to Trip-lock certain enemies, but that's not really a viable strategy unless you intend to go the Psychic Fist route for Expansion, and even then its ineffective against many enemies.

Dude, not kicks, use your tongue. Remember any part of your body can be a weapon. If female you have two frontal weapons extra... not that it might be hard to hit the enemy with clothing on.

LibraryOgre
2008-09-30, 02:44 PM
Huh, it wasn't in d20SRD.org.


Yes, it is. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown)

If you'll note, it is, as the cheese-head said, in the divine section.

DeathQuaker
2008-09-30, 02:45 PM
Dude, not kicks, use your tongue. Remember any part of your body can be a weapon. If female you have two frontal weapons extra... not that it might be hard to hit the enemy with clothing on.

Well, the same would account for the one extra weapon the male monk has down below then.

See? You made me go there. You should be ashamed. :smalltongue:

In seriousness, I personally want to see the visual of the monk planting his spear in the ground and then using it as an axle to spin around and kick all surrounding enemies with. (That could be a fluff description of a Flurry or a Whirlwind Attack, maybe....)

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-30, 02:49 PM
Dude, not kicks, use your tongue.

go Dragonball!

Mushroom Ninja
2008-09-30, 03:05 PM
Perhaps you could take some of the feats like ascetic stalker that'll let you get more abilities?

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 03:06 PM
Yes, it is. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown)

If you'll note, it is, as the cheese-head said, in the divine section.

Ah! I searched for the name unhyphenated. *shame*

LibraryOgre
2008-09-30, 04:20 PM
Well, the same would account for the one extra weapon the male monk has down below then.
...
In seriousness, I personally want to see the visual of the monk planting his spear in the ground and then using it as an axle to spin around and kick all surrounding enemies with. (That could be a fluff description of a Flurry or a Whirlwind Attack, maybe....)

*kisses audience* Goodnight, everybody!

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-30, 05:52 PM
In seriousness, I personally want to see the visual of the monk planting his spear in the ground and then using it as an axle to spin around and kick all surrounding enemies with. (That could be a fluff description of a Flurry or a Whirlwind Attack, maybe....)

Looks like this:

http://www.dvd.net.au/movies/t/08134-6.jpg
If the Monk was Keanu Reeves and the enemy was Barney... WHICH IT IS!

Edit: Oh, wait... I'm slow on the uptake. You meant... Eww. :smalleek:

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 05:59 PM
That is a hilarious pictur- OH GOD MENTAL IMAGE ATTACK

streakster
2008-09-30, 06:03 PM
In the words of LegoRobot, "I have begun to spin."

I'm gonna go Bleach my brain now...

DeathQuaker
2008-09-30, 09:14 PM
Edit: Oh, wait... I'm slow on the uptake. You meant... Eww. :smalleek:

Actually, for the latter I really did just mean the Keanu Reeves thing. Apparently some folks' brains hadn't left the first image. I apologize. :smalltongue:

Please return to your regularly scheduled Monk Optimization.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-30, 09:43 PM
Actually, for the latter I really did just mean the Keanu Reeves thing. Apparently some folks' brains hadn't left the first image. I apologize. :smalltongue:

Please return to your regularly scheduled Monk Optimization.

Ahem, Mark Hall is hereby banned from using ellipses to connect thoughts like that. :smalltongue:

FMArthur
2008-09-30, 09:46 PM
I don't get it. :smallconfused:

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 09:49 PM
I don't get it. :smallconfused:

Bless your forgotten star that you don't.

I will get my revenge on you, Santa Orc-Man!

streakster
2008-09-30, 09:50 PM
I don't get it. :smallconfused:

We are discussing a monk spinning on a weapon.

We are also discussing the fact that a monk can attack with any part of his body. Any part.

These thoughts should not be mixed.

FMArthur
2008-09-30, 09:58 PM
Are you talking about a monk spinning on his penis?

Starbuck_II
2008-09-30, 10:04 PM
Actually, for the latter I really did just mean the Keanu Reeves thing. Apparently some folks' brains hadn't left the first image. I apologize. :smalltongue:

Please return to your regularly scheduled Monk Optimization.

I am partially to blame for mentioning frontal weaponry, but you mentioned the other one. :smallbiggrin:

I'd totally give the Monk +2 cool points for doing it (spinning) with his member.

The Glyphstone
2008-09-30, 10:39 PM
Tangent thread spawned here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5023301#post5023301), for those so inclined.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-30, 10:47 PM
Tangent thread spawned here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5023301#post5023301), for those so inclined.

"Spawned" is such appropo verb use. My compliments! :smallamused:

Kaihaku
2008-09-30, 11:22 PM
A monk that doesn't such... Hmm... Monk 1/ Druid 19?:smallbiggrin:


Did you read the OP's request? You're not helping. :smallsmile:

He's about the third or fourth person to pop in with that unique and oh so witty advise. *shrug*

jcsw
2008-09-30, 11:54 PM
He's about the third or fourth person to pop in with that unique and oh so witty advise. *shrug*

Hey! I know! Monk 1/Wizard 19!

Kaihaku
2008-09-30, 11:55 PM
It's kind of like lemmings.

monty
2008-09-30, 11:57 PM
Commoner 1/Monk 19 with Chicken Infested. Hey, at least it's mostly monk levels!

DeathQuaker
2008-10-01, 06:47 AM
So how's that build coming along, Kaihaku?

Starbuck_II
2008-10-01, 07:20 AM
He's about the third or fourth person to pop in with that unique and oh so witty advise. *shrug*

I was the first and I was unique at that time.
Dang, whippersnapers, get off my lawn.

Kaihaku
2008-10-01, 07:23 AM
So how's that build coming along, Kaihaku?

Well, there's a ton of great material here... Too much even, I'm a bit overwhelmed by the people who actually tried to help. I appreciate it but it's a lot of good ideas and I'm not sure how to pull them together into one character. Still pondering what to use and what not to. :smallamused:

Thanks to all who actually contributed. :smallsmile:

To those who just joked around; glad you could have some fun with stale humor. :smallwink:

LibraryOgre
2008-10-01, 08:04 AM
Bless your forgotten star that you don't.

I will get my revenge on you, Santa Orc-Man!

Please. Ogre.

AstralFire
2008-10-01, 08:23 AM
Well, there's a ton of great material here... Too much even, I'm a bit overwhelmed by the people who actually tried to help. I appreciate it but it's a lot of good ideas and I'm not sure how to pull them together into one character. Still pondering what to use and what not to. :smallamused:

Thanks to all who actually contributed. :smallsmile:

To those who just joked around; glad you could have some fun with stale humor. :smallwink:

There's always the tried and true - just don't care about the optimizing at all (or to any large degree.) From what little I can guess of your group from how you speak and act, it sounds like they're either not very good optimizers (please - don't take that as a knock. Not being a good optimizer is such a not-flaw that I'm sure some Mary Sues have it.) or the matter is largely made irrelevant via good DMing. Monk is, by the numbers, bad - but in the right groups I've played some freakin' awesome ones. It also really helps if your DM avoids monsters to begin with.

So if my assumptions are correct, just think of some concept you'd really like to play, then try to get optimization up to make the most out of it without actually altering the concept.

Kaihaku
2008-10-01, 08:43 AM
So if my assumptions are correct, just think of some concept you'd really like to play, then try to get optimization up to make the most out of it without actually altering the concept.

Wise advise.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-01, 09:35 AM
Please. Ogre.

I thought you were a Orog (Orc + Ogre). You seem intelligent just like Orog (neither Ogres are Orcs are intelligent usually).

LibraryOgre
2008-10-01, 11:24 AM
I thought you were a Orog (Orc + Ogre). You seem intelligent just like Orog (neither Ogres are Orcs are intelligent usually).

You're showing your system-ism. I write for Palladium Fantasy, where the ogres are giant-sized humans of good intelligence and questionable personal habits.

I do refer to babies as "veal". It makes my sister-in-law uncomfortable, but she knows my family.