V's Aligment in #202 (Spoiler)

[Santiago]

Just a reminder that in #202, V was "Not Evil." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) :smallcool:

That may or may not have changed. Hmm.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

I don't think it's changed, even based on 597's actions. He is just acting in an overly lawful manner....which is scarily reminiscent of Miko.... :frown: :frown::frown::frown::frown: Miko also threatened and killed her ally, and didn't change alignment necessarily, just lost her uber-good-paladin status.

However, I'd now like to throw out "You are distracting me." as V's 4 words...:biggrin:

[Spiryt]

He's just under persisted Undetectable alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undetectableAlignment.htm) in some way. [/conspiary theory]

[MyrddinDerwydd]

He's just under persisted Undetectable alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undetectableAlignment.htm) in some way. [/conspiary theory]

but wouldn't that have resulted in Miko not being able to detect an alignment at all, rather than "not evil"? as if he had a magical version of Belkar's lead plate :amused:

[T.Titan]

Or you know maybe he's just pissed off?! Also, insomnia can make you crazy (see Fight Club).

And since when is making threats always evil?! (Bluff skill anyone? Intimidate too, i don't recall that skill ever being described as a alignment changer).

[Yuki Akuma]

but wouldn't that have resulted in Miko not being able to detect an alignment at all, rather than "not evil"? as if he had a magical version of Belkar's lead plate :amused:

"Detect Evil" does just that: it detects Evil. If you have Undetectable Alignment up, it results in a reading of "Not Evil", even if you are Evil.

Meanwhile, a lead sheet blocks the spell/ability, it doesn't actually conceal your alignment.

[Trixie]

I don't think it's changed, even based on 597's actions. He is just acting in an overly lawful manner....which is scarily reminiscent of Miko.... :frown: :frown::frown::frown::frown:

Excuse me? Overly lawful? Last three strips scream "CHAOTIC EVIL!" all the way to Celestia :smallamused:

[MyrddinDerwydd]

Excuse me? Overly lawful? Last three strips scream "CHAOTIC EVIL!" all the way to Celestia :smallamused:

Actually V is acting in a manner that is very consistent with a lawful character. Lawful just meant adhering to a structured set of tenets that control your behaviour. Chaotic means that your actions are unpredictable.

V has always been pretty predictably cantankerous, goal oriented, and intolerant of Elan's oft-times infuriating naivety.

[Tholok Razescar]

Or you know maybe he's just pissed off?! Also, insomnia can make you crazy (see Fight Club).

And since when is making threats always evil?! (Bluff skill anyone? Intimidate too, i don't recall that skill ever being described as a alignment changer).

Dude, don't talk about Fight Club!

[Zifna]

I think people are forgetting that Neutral doesn't mean "never good or evil," it means "on balance, neither truly good nor truly evil."

Yeah, V's done some things that were bad and he was pushing the boundaries with threatening Elan... but he backed off of that one real quick and I'd suggest he was never really serious in the first place. (How many of us have said to someone "Touch that and I'll KILL you!"?)

I'd also suggest that he's trance-deprived, magically saturated in pain, malnourished, and halfway into that state you get after working on code for eight hours where you look at the rest of the world and wonder where all the semicolons went. He's obviously somewhat lucid but I'd argue that he's also half-delirious.

At this point, discussions of an alignment shift seem decidedly premature.

[Kaytara]

I'd also suggest that he's trance-deprived, magically saturated in pain, malnourished, and halfway into that state you get after working on code for eight hours where you look at the rest of the world and wonder where all the semicolons went. He's obviously somewhat lucid but I'd argue that he's also half-delirious.

At this point, discussions of an alignment shift seem decidedly premature.

Truer words have never been spoken. ^^
Especially this part:
...where you look at the rest of the world and wonder where all the semicolons went.
That strikes me as a significant factor in V's callousness right now. He's been doing calculus wizardry 24/7 for months, he's probably only thinking in magical equations by now and completely incapable of processing the world in non-scientific-wizardric manner.

[amuletts]

I think some people are in denial.

It seems pretty clear that since #202 (almost 400 strips ago!) Vaarsuvius has changed alignment to Evil. Killing Kubota in #595 could have been considered a Neutral (or even Good) act had not Vaarsuvius explained his reasons. It's clear that s/he killed Kubota because he was an inconvenience, a distraction. S/He did not care who he was or whether he deserved it.

Vaarsuvius took a life and didn't give a s*%t - that's evil!
Ilusory Belkar is almost a plot exposition: "Hey guys! V's gone evil!"
In #597 Vaarsuvius suggests he would kill Elan - or ANYONE who distracts him - just as easily. He has glowy eyes and energy crackling from his fingertips. His appearance has been undergoing an EVILution!

Can The Giant make it any more obvious?

[Kaytara]

It's not denial, it's just a different interpretation of the long-term consequences. Consider it this way. Lots of people have outright said that V has gone insane. If that's true, shouldn't he have the option to plead insanity, so to speak?
His recent crudeness of reasoning and leaps of logic indicate that he is possibly not completely lucid, aka delusional. That Vaarsuvius is behaving in an evil manner at this point is hard to deny; it's whether Vaarsuvius has permanently TURNED evil that's the big question.

Whether V has really turned evil or not depends on whether he'll go back to normal when the Order finally gets back together. If he gets back to something resembling normality, it's obvious the whole thing has been just a phase, a result of extreme stress. When something is in pain, it snaps at you. You might jump out of the way or snap back, but you don't really blame it.
Until then, it's just guesswork.

[amuletts]

I made no prediction as to his future behaviour or state of mind, only his current. Currently he is evil.

The real question is whether it is a forced alignment change or a choice s/he has made of his/her own free will. As his/her powers do not appear to have decreased (i.e. no level loss) it would appear to indicate the former. Therefore your 'insanity' argument has merit.

Hwr, I play 2nd Ed. 3.5 could be completely different concerning alignment.

Heh, perhaps they have secretly converted to 4th Ed. and V. was CN! Since CN does not exist in that system s/he was force to become CE!! (pls note this is a cheap joke at 4th Eds expense. I believe V. was originally True Neural).

[MidrealmDM]

An interesting Question -
Does commiting one evil act make a character Evil

Some would say yes, but if that were true, then committing a single good act would likewise make one good.

If this were the case some characters alignment would change several times over the course of a single day.

I think V has definately been sliding down the slope towards evil, but has not actually become evil yet. Again the disintigration was an "evil act" but this is under the assumption that a single act cannot make your alignment change.

If V, after recovering from stress, lack of sleep, and whatever else s/he has going on does not show any remorse. A stronger argument could be made. (Yes S/he shows no remorse right now)
Also if, from V's point of view rescuing Roy and Haley is important to completing the mision to stop Xykon and saving the world. Removing a distraction (no matter how cold heartedly it is done) could serve the greater good. Not a stong argument, I'll admit.
[edit] Also V never attacked Elan, but only threatened to do so, a failed intimidate check by dint of the fact that Elan is too dense to realize he is being threatened. In the final pannel, V did not appear interested in following through with this threat in the slightest.

I think V is firmly entrenched in Neutral -- sliding towards evil,
but will never be as bad as Belkar who takes great pleasure in other's pain and suffering, particularly if he is the one who inflicted it.

- Just my $0.02

[edit] P.S. This also could be an example of a TV Tropes _Moral Event Horizon_ http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon. But I would hope not.

[ericgrau]

Dude, amulett's avatar is way out of context. And it might be against the forum rules.

Try to follow the story as a story. The Giant isn't big on alignments, neither should you be when reading his comic. Citing Miko was a good example. It's called character complexity. Something bad is happening to V's character now and I don't care wth his alignment is. Try to look at it in more detail than just 100% good/100% evil.

[busterswd]

Keep in mind... V is not good, he's neutral. There's two ways to approach the neutral alignment; either you don't give a crap about good and evil and let law or your own convictions drive you, or you do equal parts good and evil like the true neutral of 2nd edition.

He's done a lot of good aligned things so far, but he's neutral, he's allowed to act like a bastard once in a while.

Now if he actually KILLED Elan that would probably put him into evil territory.

[Johel]

This may come from the way V usually speak but I would have labbeled him/her as Lawful. And based on his/her USUAL behavior (He/she doesn't act evil but doesn't care much for the wellbeign of others) I would say Lawful NEUTRAL.

BUT for this page (and also for the little episode on Orc-Island), I'm inclined to think of him/her as Evil (or at least, definitely NOT GOOD). And for the Lawful part, it's definitely over. Come on, he/she is willing to IGNORE the law just out of impatience !!

Things are, we can't tell until he/she's taken some real sleep.

[Kizor]

V made the threat without considering how Haley Starshine would react upon reuniting with the rest and finding Elan dead by V's hand. Assuming that V was threatening Elan's life and not making some kind of overly roundabout suggestion of teleporting or imprisoning him, that makes me give V at least the benefit of the doubt regarding V's sanity.

[amuletts]

ericgrau you are probably right reguarding the avatar. It was only intended as a bit of visual irony. Anyway, gone now - I don't want to upset anyone.

Still I'd say it is okay to discuss alignment in a thread about alignment! Actually I think Rich has handled alignments well and consistently throughout the comic.

[MidrealmDM]

In #206
V confesses S/he is not acting out of a desire to be an "upright law abiding citizen"

V has never really behaved in what I would consider a Lawful manner. But I have discovered that each DM or player has their own interpretation of this.

Also in #212-213
V is loathe to do a good act stating "I am not...without compassion...but there is a matter of scale to consider."

continuing to state that an effort to save a life is "an utter waste of my...talent"

#246
V expressed feeling "mild amusement" at Miko's aparent death

These indicate a person who, while not evil, is not very good either.
V's latest act merely is an extension of that calous attitude to the Nth degree.

V has also deliberately attacked Belkar on several occasions.
#221, #317, #318 ...
but confesses in # 335 that this was for a greater reason
(although the event for this reason occured in #316, well after the first attack). And while V caould be relatively sure that Belkar would survive, it is still somewhat dastardly, chatoitc and evil to attack an ally unprovoked.

My contention V has never been 'Good' or 'Lawful'

Sorry if I got a little long winded.

[David Argall]

Killing Kubota in #595 could have been considered a Neutral (or even Good) act had not Vaarsuvius explained his reasons. It's clear that s/he killed Kubota because he was an inconvenience, a distraction. S/He did not care who he was or whether he deserved it.
But she did care. As he explained, she knew that Kubota was a valid target.

In Army officer candidate training, one [used to?] washes[d] out with a certain number of demerits [say 50]. When you have 49, it doesn't matter what petty sin is #50, you are still gone because somebody didn't like your haircut or shine of your shoes. The guy giving you #50 isn't being a hardass or anything [tho he may be one]. You have just sinned enough that your further survival is very marginal.
So with V and Kubota. Kubota is known to have sinned that 49 times, and so a lesser sin now causes V to say "That is it." and dusts him. Entirely reasonable behavior for a Good.


In #597 Vaarsuvius suggests he would kill Elan - or ANYONE who distracts him - just as easily. He has glowy eyes and energy crackling from his fingertips. His appearance has been undergoing an EVILution!

Can The Giant make it any more obvious?
Oh yes. For one thing, V does not actually threaten Elan [at least if he can get a sharp lawyer to explain the point]. More important, he does not actually attack Elan even tho Elan threatens to be a far more bothersome distraction than the unlamented Kubota.
Now those of us who think V should be Good are pretty much limted to "V's not himself. Maybe after a good night's trance, she'll be better." But recent actions do require a lawyer to stay out of evil territory.

[hamishspence]

Classic example of 1 Evil act shifting a Good character immediately to evil. Paladin burns village to prevent disease speading. In AD&D 1st edition PHB, and AD&D 2nd edition DMG. Classic "For the Greater Good action, and yet, evil enough to make the jump all the way from Good to EVil, immediately, according to the then rules, which said that usually jumps take more time than that.

Now V's action is not as big as that, nowhere near, but, to those who say "For the Greater good" is never evil I say "D&D designers might disagree with you"

[MyrddinDerwydd]

Keep in mind... V is not good, he's neutral. There's two ways to approach the neutral alignment; either you don't give a crap about good and evil and let law or your own convictions drive you, or you do equal parts good and evil like the true neutral of 2nd edition.

He's done a lot of good aligned things so far, but he's neutral, he's allowed to act like a bastard once in a while.

Now if he actually KILLED Elan that would probably put him into evil territory.

I'd argue more that V is sliding from the good end of lawful neutral toward the evil end of lawful neutral. Also, it seems like some are forgetting # 186 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html), where he actually threatened Roy specifically, and the entire party. No, he didn't have glowing eyes or actually call up the magic at that moment, but he had also just disintegrated a dragon. Rather intimidating as well, and under rather less stressful conditions.

My interpretation of lawful vs chaotic is one of predictability vs. randomness, neither of which have anything whatsoever with the "laws" that are established by whatever group happens to be in charge of the region you happen to be in. By this definition V is rather extremely lawful, to the point that Durkon comments on V's unpredictable response in #591 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), rather than any of the other more important plot points. :durkon::elan::vaarsuvius:

EDIT:
Classic example of 1 Evil act shifting a Good character immediately to evil. Paladin burns village to prevent disease speading. In AD&D 1st edition PHB, and AD&D 2nd edition DMG. Classic "For the Greater Good action, and yet, evil enough to make the jump all the way from Good to EVil, immediately, according to the then rules, which said that usually jumps take more time than that.

Now V's action is not as big as that, nowhere near, but, to those who say "For the Greater good" is never evil I say "D&D designers might disagree with you"
Arguing that something is for "the greater good" is always a fishy business, because it is essentially an argument that the end justifies the means. I'd argue more that it's a very very dark grey area rather than that it causes an immediate alignment shift, particularly for V, an arguably neutral aligned character.

[busterswd]

I'd argue more that V is sliding from the good end of lawful neutral toward the evil end of lawful neutral. Also, it seems like some are forgetting # 186, where he actually threatened Roy specifically, and the entire party. No, he didn't have glowing eyes or actually call up the magic at that moment, but he had also just disintegrated a dragon. Rather intimidating as well, and under rather less stressful conditions.

My interpretation of lawful vs chaotic is one of predictability vs. randomness, neither of which have anything whatsoever with the "laws" that are established by whatever group happens to be in charge of the region you happen to be in. By this definition V is rather extremely lawful, to the point that Durkon comments on V's unpredictable response in #591, rather than any of the other more important plot points.

Yeah, no doubt this latest round of actions is sliding him significantly lower on the good vs. evil scale, but the general trend in the forums recently has been to judge everyone like a 3.5 paladin, as in "one potentially evil act will cause you to lose your alignment." 595 was not even close to a full fledged evil act, and while 186 and 597 were, their severity isn't even close to what the really evil guys do on a regular basis.

On a side note, for some reason I thought 186 was more of an idle threat, something along the lines of "sit down and shut up before I kick you in the balls;" something severe enough to quell any action but at the same time something you wouldn't just do without severe provocation. The glowy eyes and magicy hands in 597 seemed to indicate he would actually follow through.

[Thufir]

The glowy eyes and magicy hands in 597 seemed to indicate he would actually follow through.

I disagree. If he was going to follow through on that threat, she would have done so already. I feel this shows that while she may have gone quite a way towards evil, there are still some lines he will not cross.

[Karaswanton]

TN.
He is currently not a rational moral agent as a result of extreme sleep deprivation.

[Callista]

Yes, but you have to consider that doing evil things under the influence of sleep deprivation does pull your alignment that way. They might be less evil, but every time you do something like that, it changes your personality subtly...

Remember how Roy acts when he's sleep-deprived, grumpy, etc.? OK--now contrast with V.

I don't know if s/he's still TN. Threatening Elan wasn't strongly evil, but I think it counts. Killing Kubota is on a similar borderline. Slipping to Evil is strongly possible, but I still think we don't have enough evidence. I'd put V as "true neutral with evil tendencies".

[Ardolich45]

I don't think it's changed, even based on 597's actions. He is just acting in an overly lawful manner....which is scarily reminiscent of Miko.... :frown: :frown::frown::frown::frown: Miko also threatened and killed her ally, and didn't change alignment necessarily, just lost her uber-good-paladin status.

However, I'd now like to throw out "You are distracting me." as V's 4 words...:biggrin:

SWEET MOTHER OF JESUS.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

SWEET MOTHER OF JESUS.

Hmm. Not sure how to interpret this comment....

[Corsair]

Keep in mind that just because V is acting less than good and probably in the direction of Evil, that he's hardly committed sufficient acts for an alignment shift. He killed a Lawful Evil guy for no really good reason, and he threatened a teammate, probably idly. Certainly, he's nudging the line, but these are hardly acts that are going to turn V into a Neutral Evil Ax Crazy.

[Dreamthiev]

I don't really think V's alignment is shifting that much. In 185 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0185.html) V used the black dragon to threaten the party into sticking around until the polymorph spell was broken, then in 186 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) she made a veil threat to Roy suggesting that any of them could be disintegrated just as easily.

She threatened Elan in pretty much the same manner. The actions haven't changed. She's just grouchier due to lack of sleep. :smalltongue:

[BlueElk]

My 2 cents worth: Mikos ability failed to classify Roy correctly because of the crown. The crown had "absorbed" so much evil that it hid Roy's true alignment, which we know is good. So the fact that Miko classified V as 'not evil' might not mean so much. What if V is carrying around a 'good' item, maybe something given to him by his (good++) mate?