4th Level Wizard vs Golem (3.5)

[Jack Zander]

My last session ended with us at the final tomb of the dungeon, where a large golem was blocking our path to the shiny treasures. My knowledge check revealed that it had all normal golem traits, plus some cheapo ranged attack. (I think it was called a Force Golem, but please don't reveal anything about it to me). The golem told us to turn back or be destroyed, so we kindly accepted his offer.

We are going back to defeat him but we need to prepare. Golems are immune to most all magics, and this is no exception, so which spells (1st and 2nd level) should I prepare? Any core spells are available to me, and I can buy new spells so don't worry about my current spell list.

Let me make sure I have this immunity thing correct too. They are only immune to spells that allow SR right?

[weenie]

You are correct, golems are only immune to spells that allow SR.

The other part of your question is a bit harder to answer. Golems are not only immune to spells, but also to all kinds of mind affecting effects and other similar stuff. I've never heard of a Force golem, but the regular golems are pretty hard to beat at level 4, so you might want to do some research on just how tough this golem is(to see if the DM even intended for you to beat it). If it turns out to be beatable, see if you cen get access to the Spell Compendium, or Complete Arcane. There you can find the lesser orb spells, that do damage and don't allow SR. From core the only spell that comes to mind(but is damn good for this purpose) is Grease. Beeing a golem its reflex save & balance skill are going to be pretty bad, so that's a good way to slow it down a bit.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Orbs, anything else that doesn't allow SR. Doesn't matter if it allows a save, since golems' saves suck. If it's a force golem, it probably has great touch AC, though, so you may have a hard time hitting with orbs. I'm sure there's a bunch of control spells that don't allow SR, though.

Buffing your party is a good option, too.

[Galdor Miriel]

I will probably be ninjaed, but as a wizard you can be very effective by boosting the powers of your friends. A heroism and a bulls strength and a haste on a fighter would make your wizards day.

Galdor

[Ascension]

He wouldn't happen to be on a bridge or anything, would he? I remember hearing about someone taking out an Adamantine Golem once by luring it onto a bridge and disintegrating the bridge.

Anyway, since I know where Force Golems come from, and I know what they're capable of, I'm not going to say anything more, since I'd be too tempted to reveal specific information.

[monty]

You should mostly focus on party buffs, and let the fighter-types handle it. If you want to throw out offensive stuff, go for nondamaging spells like Grease and Glitterdust. Again, try to make it easier for your party to handle it. The actual killing is not your job.

[Jack Zander]

I've got a few buffs and web (which was my current strategy, but I'm not sure how to beat it once we entangle it). Grease is a good idea, I can add that to my spellbook (I usually only take it if we have a rogue in the party).

The other three are a spiked chain fighter, a factotum (or whatever it is), and a druid. The druid will probably just buff his wolf and have him go to town, the spiked chain fighter will stand behind the wolf and attack, and I'm not sure what the factotum does yet. So far he's just soaked up the hits for us.

I'll probably buff up the fighter after casting grease or web.

Another question, if I cast mirror image and blur, do my images have 20% miss chance too? What about displacement?

[Ascension]

I'm not sure what the factotum does yet.

The better question is, "What doesn't he do?" The factotum can do pretty much anything if he puts his mind to it (pun so very much intended).

By the way, if he doesn't know about it already, mention the Font of Inspiration feat to him. He'll be much more useful after he's given himself some more Inspiration points.

[Starbuck_II]

I've got a few buffs and web (which was my current strategy, but I'm not sure how to beat it once we entangle it). Grease is a good idea, I can add that to my spellbook (I usually only take it if we have a rogue in the party).

The other three are a spiked chain fighter, a factotum (or whatever it is), and a druid. The druid will probably just buff his wolf and have him go to town, the spiked chain fighter will stand behind the wolf and attack, and I'm not sure what the factotum does yet. So far he's just soaked up the hits for us.

I'll probably buff up the fighter after casting grease or web.

Glitterdust blinds the Golem (No SR and Golems don't have immunity to blindess trait), do I have to spell out how awesome that is?
He can't use ranged attacks while blind unless DM metagames or you make lots of niose in a certain area (he can't target you then).


Another question, if I cast mirror image and blur, do my images have 20% miss chance too? What about displacement?
Nope. The Mirror Images just look/act like you: they don't have any of your abilities.

[Jack Zander]

Nope. The Mirror Images just look/act like you: they don't have any of your abilities.

But if I look blurred, wouldn't they look blured as well? Well, I guess it makes common sense, but the mechanics wouldn't agree with me...

Thanks for glitterdust, I've already got that one in my spellbook, I'll be sure to prepare it (I thought it was mind affecting for some reason).

[The Glyphstone]

I also have the book with the Force Golem in it, so I'll be quiet, except to reassure that it is a CR-appropriate challenge for your party, you're not being hit with something like a Stone/Clay/Iron Golem in a different material wrapper.

[arguskos]

Lessee... given what you know about the Golem (named Force Golem, imm. magic, cheapo ranged attack, linked to force magic [logical leap]), let's try and see what tactics it may use against you.

Golems typically are very physically powerful, so it may just bash your heads in. This can be counteracted with the stat buffing spells (bear's endurance, cat's grace, bull's strength) to an extent. The deflect and lesser deflect spells from PHB II can aid you personally in surviving the golem, in case it gets to you.

"Cheapo ranged attack" means you are probably dealing with a golem that can blast you with force attacks or something. That's... tough to deal with. Force is hard to resist (typically touch attacks, and force damage is almost impossible to have resistance to), and combined with it's likely physical prowess, you may wish to think about going blasty rather than defensive.

Good options for tactics: use the environment against it (use sonic spells to blow the area apart, Shatterfloor from Spell Compendium is good for that; lurn in onto bridges and bull rush it off them; stuff like that); try buffing the melee damage dealers, but keep in mind that many golems have high AC and possibly DR; try no save/no SR spells (Orb spells, if you can get scrolls of them) but keep in mind that it's touch AC is likely to be high (force effects = defensive stuff, after all).

Overall: you're likely in for a real tough fight. Force effects are powerful, and golems are as well. A Force Golem is likely to be seriously dangerous. Tell the druid to pick up a stick of cure medium/light, or to simply prepare a few, since the fighter/factorum are probably gonna take some heavy hits. As for you, I suggest you cast Invisibility to begin, then follow that with Greace, Web, Glitterdust, and other environmental spells.

Good luck, let us know how you fare!

-argus

[Quellian-dyrae]

"Cheapo ranged attack" means you are probably dealing with a golem that can blast you with force attacks or something. That's... tough to deal with. Force is hard to resist (typically touch attacks, and force damage is almost impossible to have resistance to), and combined with it's likely physical prowess, you may wish to think about going blasty rather than defensive.

As a low-level force-based creature, it would not be illogical for that ranged attack to be a magic missile. Adding a Shield spell might be worth it. Even if I'm wrong, +4 AC can't hurt.

[Starbuck_II]

As a low-level force-based creature, it would not be illogical for that ranged attack to be a magic missile. Adding a Shield spell might be worth it. Even if I'm wrong, +4 AC can't hurt.

True, but if it is'nt magic missile then Shield acts likethe goggles from the simpsons: they do nothing!

Ray/ranged touch attacks ignore every armor/shield bonus. Shield spell is a shield bonus (Force effects just help to defend vs incorporeals...are there incorporeal golems?)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It also depends a lot on your buff time. A Summoning is good for a surprise round attack, since after the spider shows up, it can essentially make a ranged touch attack to force the Golem to skip its next turn. But the 1-round casting is annoying without a buff time. Grease is good, the Orbs are good, Dust is good.It's a giant Fighter with high SR. Not too hard to knock it on it's bum.

[Jack Zander]

The DM read off a brief description of it's ranged attack to us (courtesy of my knowledge check), and I believe it's more of a push you around type thing if I remember correctly. I don't think the name actually is referring to force damage, but rather to physics force.

To be honest, I'm probably not going to buff myself at all. We know where it is, and it's not going to move from it's guardian position, so we have all the time we want to prepare. I'll buff all my teammates (probably with scrolls), and then I'll go invisible and open up the fight with grease or glitterdust.

Thanks for the tips, and I'll let you guys know what happens (probably this Thursday).

[Gorbash]

I'm just unsure why your DM said the specifics of its attacks, but didn't reveal what the creature actuall is. The rules on knowledge are a bit vague, but it's certain that with a 10+HD check you can identify it. So if you know it has a special ranged attack, why don't you know what that actually is?

[vegetalss4]

he does.
it is a force golem.

[Ascension]

If that's what he read you, and if he's following the default guidelines given in *monster source censored for your protection*, then it sounds like you hit the DC 19 Knowledge (Arcana) check but fell short of the DC 24.

[Gorbash]

I never understood topics such as this one... So you're asking advice, but you don't want us to tell you anything about the specific creature? It's metagaming both ways, this is just to a lesser extent. Either way you're using knowledge that your character didn't obtain.

[Ascension]

Asking other people for advice is the only way to properly RP a character with superhuman intelligence (like most wizards). Since we can't individually be as smart as the character is actually supposed to be, asking a whole forum's worth of people for tactical advice is the only way he can simulate his character's thought process.

Now, if he were playing an INT-dumping barbarian, then you'd have a good point, it would be metagaming.

[Jack Zander]

Dang, my Knowledge check was a 21...

I fail to see how this is metagaming. I'm asking what some useful spells would be to use against creatures immune to spells. This is knowledge that my character specifically knows from my knowledge check, and I have 24 hours to prepare for the encounter in the safety of a town 6 hours away.

If I was a blaster who asked which elements should I prepare against it, then I could see how this would be metagaming, but so far I've done nothing that my character wouldn't already have done (learned about this golem and is now pouring through his own spellbook for useful spells, and possibly researching new spells that may be of use). And actually, I don't need any new spells, though I do need to scribe a scroll so I can get an extra 2nd level spell.

[Kaihaku]

Plenty of good advise above...

Just one question, are you actually suppose to fight the golem or might this be a puzzle sort of thing?

[Ascension]

Plenty of good advise above...

Just one question, are you actually suppose to fight the golem or might this be a puzzle sort of thing?

At this golem's CR I imagine they're supposed to fight it.

[Jack Zander]

I'm pretty sure we're just suppose to fight it. It's guarding a tomb of a fallen religious hero, and we want to loot his tomb.

Hmm... that plot hook doesn't seem so good anymore. We need to stop finding quests from crazy people preaching in the streets about blights upon the world.

[monty]

Bah, you're adventurers. You don't care about "good" (unless you're a paladin). You just care about getting phat lewtz and sweet, sweet XP.

[Kaihaku]

At this golem's CR I imagine they're supposed to fight it.

Opps, I missed that. If it's CR I you really shouldn't have a lot of trouble with it.

[Jack Zander]

CR I? That doesn't that stand for Impossible does it?

[Kaihaku]

CR I? That doesn't that stand for Impossible does it?

Roman Numerals: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, etc.

So, not impossible unless you're doing long division by hand.

[Jack Zander]

Erm, that was a joke. Reread his post, I'm pretty sure he was using a pronoun, not a roman numeral.

[Kaihaku]

Erm, that was a joke.

My response was also meant to be a joke, though in retrospect not a terribly funny one.


Reread his post, I'm pretty sure he was using a pronoun, not a roman numeral.

I guess my ability to comprehend text is weakening... :smallfrown:

[Jack Zander]

It must have something to do with the reading comprehension rates in America or something.

[Jack Zander]

Alright, you guys wanted to know how it went, here it is:

Our Factotum couldn't make it, but my girlfriend came to the session instead and played an Elven Ranger. The druid and I buffed all our teammates (enlarge person on the fighter, mage armor and bark skin on the wolf to be our meat shield) then I turned invisible and sneaked into the tomb. My first spell to unleash was Glitterdust in an attempt to blind him. This golem must have had really good saving throws compared to most, because it never rolled lower than a 17. After the blinding attempt failed, we rolled initiative and the Force Golem went first, with only me in the room. Luckily it readied an action rather than crushing my paper skull. The druid and his wolf charged in, the druid flinging magic stones and the wolf gnawing on it's metal legs. This is when we found out it had Damage Reduction 5/adamantium. Seriously, who has adamantium weapons at level 4? My wizard took his second turn and casted grease on the golem. Another save but at least he was flat-footed from balancing. Oh wait, this golem has 5 ranks in balance. WTF? Okay whatever, our fighter charges in and the golem takes his readied action to make some blast of force across the room, dealing about 11 damage to everyone within range (including me, but I saved for half damage). Our fighter then fails to trip the bugger with his strength check roll of 1. Ranger fires an arrow and deals 1 damage. Yay, we hurt it!

Round 2: The wolf hits and is able to trip the golem because of the grease spell. That should slow it down some! The druid flings an oil flask at it. I use my pearl of power to give the ranger's bow a +1, since my web spell would do more harm than good here. The golem succeeds at a tumble check to get up from prone as a free action (WTF again? What kind of golem is this? He's got more skills than a rogue!), and takes some minor damage from the AoOs from the wolf and fighter. He tumbles up near the fighter and slams him for 11 more damage. The fighter then trips the golem and deals some more damage to it, then backs away slightly. Our ranger rolls poorly and fails to connect with an arrow.

Round 3: The wolf fails to bite it this time, and is pushed back 5 feet from some ability. Our druid flings some alchemists fire and deals extra damage from the oil. It still only takes minor damage. I ready my web spell for an opportune moment. The golem stands up and gets knocked around by the fighter, then bashes the fighter for another 10 damage. He's starting to hurt now. He backs against the wall, and our ranger gives him back 10 hp with her wand.

Round 4: The wolf bites for no damage again, while the druid flings a magic stone and misses. I continue to ready my action and the golem gets up. That's when I realize no one is threatening his square anymore since our fighter just shrunk back to normal size. I cast my prepared web spell to prevent it's advance on us. It saves, but the wolf is stuck good. The golem uses another force blast and catches most everyone with it (not me this time!). It moves 10 feet forward with its strength check. Our fighter stands up with 5 feet of web blocking the golem's wrath. We are all prepared to run, but he has a better idea. He tries to trip the golem, but misses his 20% concealment check! With his move action used up, he's stuck between a golem and a wall. Our ranger fires her bow but cannot connect.

Round 5: The wolf can't move. The druid says forget this and moves down the hallway to get out of there. I fire my crossbow, miss and follow him. The golem can only move 5 feet this turn, but is now on the edge of the web and slams our poor fighter down to -2. The brave ranger tries to save him, and charges with her greatsword, landing the mightiest blow we've seen all night. Our fighter loses 1 hp.

Round 6: The druid comes back and flings some alchemists fire at the web, since the golem is going to break free next turn anyway. It still takes barely any damage. The wolf who is still not dead yet somehow charges in and ... misses. I run back and say that this is for all those times the fighter has pulled one of my characters out a tight situation. The frail little wizard strikes! But does not deal enough damage to hurt it. The golem blasts our ranger with a force pulse, but she holds her ground. She still can't get close enough to heal the poor fighter, so she hacks away with her greatsword again, but misses. Fighter loses yet another hp.

Round 7: The druid flings his last alchemists fire, and deals a whopping 1 damage to the thing, as well as 1 damage to the ranger and dying fighter. The wolf fails to do anything useful, and my arrows do nothing. The golem then blasts everyone again (I'm now down to 7 hp), and we all look in horror as our dear fighter's body is smashed by the shockwaves. Our ranger is able to finish him with one last mighty blow (he had 2 hp left... ****).

The golem was guarding a tomb of a long forgotten adventurer. We looted it, removed the adventurer's remains and stuck our friend in there instead. Among the treasures we found an Amulet of Health +2 which will probably go to the fighter's next character so he doesn't die again.

I'd say it was an overall loss for us. The DM said that thing should be a CR 6 at least. I reminded him of the power creep (but that is the whole point of this campaign). My wizard feels responsible for the death of his friend. If his spells were more powerful, or if he had thought of a better plan, this never would have happened...

Thanks for the help guys! I'll be sure to come back next week or so when I need more help plotting the demise of overpowered monsters!