Saruman v.s Medivh

[ArlEammon]

Saruman is aware that Medivh has a mysterious artifact of power that would make Saruman much stronger. However, Medivh is no slouch as a wizard. Medivh attempts time and time again to reason with Saruman, but Saruman attempted to slay Medivh.

Now, Medivh has had enough of Saruman's threats and attempts to steal the wand of Cherlindrea. (from the 1988 Willow Movie). You don't need to know about the wand of Cherlindrea in this match, because Medivh will not use it.

Medivh will use his full powers, and Saruman is not on Middle Earth, so he may be more powerful since he does not have to restrain himself as he did on Middle Earth. Saruman is not restrained in his magical ability like he was on Middle Earth. Gandalf was hitting a balrog with lightning bolts in the Silmarillion(Or I think the Two Towers) and he was only a Grey. This is an unrestrained Saruman the White.

[MeklorIlavator]

What series is Medivh from? In any case, if Saruman has no blocks on his ability then I think he might have the upper hand, seeing as how he's a demigod and all.

[ArlEammon]

What series is Medivh from? In any case, if Saruman has no blocks on his ability then I think he might have the upper hand, seeing as how he's a demigod and all.

Medivh is from the Warcraft series. At full power he is at least the same power level if not more. I tried to balance everything a little bit somehow through lifting Saruman's restrictions.

[TheElfLord]

I'm going to continue with my theory that much of Warcraft is transfered Tolkien and that Medivh is the Saruman of Warcraft. Now, this is a much weaker comparason than many of the others, but I still postulate that if Medivh met up with Saruman in Middle Earth or Saruman met Medivh in Azeroth, they would be looking at a mirror image.

and what's up with Cherlindrea's Wand? Did you just pick a random magical item in a third world just for fun? Why would Saruman care that Medivh is going after the wand? Especally since there is no way Medivh could ever take it from Cherlindrea by force.

[Mr. Scaly]

Isn't Medivh the greatest wizard who ever lived on Azeroth? So strong that he could fight gods?

[ArlEammon]

Isn't Medivh the greatest wizard who ever lived on Azeroth? So strong that he could fight gods?

An Istari is probably possessor of 10 divine ranks. And as to Cherlindrea's Wand... I"m an extreme Willow fanatic.

[Mr. Scaly]

Huh. I don't know much of their respective abilities, I have to admit. They're both mostly manipulators though, aren't they?

[ArlEammon]

Huh. I don't know much of their respective abilities, I have to admit. They're both mostly manipulators though, aren't they?

Medivh actually possess a good alignment by Warcraft III. He still possesses his brain, though as far as I can tell.. I think that he actually was a manipulator in the first Warcraft. Saruman is just the opposite.

Just to give you an idea why I think Saruman is uber, he is an Istari. The Istari are basically Archangels, while the Valar are more like Lucifer before his fall, Gabriel, and Michael(except there's more of the Valar than known Archangels).

[Mr. Scaly]

Medivh actually possess a good alignment by Warcraft III. He still possesses his brain, though as far as I can tell.. I think that he actually was a manipulator in the first Warcraft. Saruman is just the opposite.

Just to give you an idea why I think Saruman is uber, he is an Istari. The Istari are basically Archangels, while the Valar are more like Lucifer before his fall, Gabriel, and Michael(except there's more of the Valar than known Archangels).

So super-powerful but mortal wizard vs divine servant to the greater powers. Hmm.

Well theoretically, being divine means being harder to kill in traditional ways. Saruman did die from a knife in the back but he'd been greatly weakened at the time, and it took a balrog to kill Gandalf, another Istari. And If I remember right Medivh was killed by some soldiers with swords. So for now I'm going to say Saruman.


Wait, the wand thing just hit me. I loved that movie!

[kamikasei]

Just to give you an idea why I think Saruman is uber, he is an Istari. The Istari are basically Archangels, while the Valar are more like Lucifer before his fall, Gabriel, and Michael(except there's more of the Valar than known Archangels).

:smallconfused:

I admit I'm not up on my angelic cladology, but it would seem clearer and more accurate to characterize the Valar as like archangels given dominion over specific areas, while the Istari are a few of the lesser angels given a special mission and powers. I don't recall anything indicating that the Istari are the most powerful of the Maiar (the lesser and more numerous "angelic" order); I believe Gandalf is stated to be the wisest and perhaps Saruman the "most cunning" or "most crafty", but I'm not sure it's ever indicated that they could take, say, Osse or Melian in a fight. And certainly Sauron and the balrogs are even or better matches for Gandalf, though originally Maia themselves.

[ArlEammon]

:smallconfused:

I admit I'm not up on my angelic cladology, but it would seem clearer and more accurate to characterize the Valar as like archangels given dominion over specific areas, while the Istari are a few of the lesser angels given a special mission and powers. I don't recall anything indicating that the Istari are the most powerful of the Maiar (the lesser and more numerous "angelic" order); I believe Gandalf is stated to be the wisest and perhaps Saruman the "most cunning" or "most crafty", but I'm not sure it's ever indicated that they could take, say, Osse or Melian in a fight. And certainly Sauron and the balrogs are even or better matches for Gandalf, though originally Maia themselves.

Gandalf the Grey.. yes.. I have read that Gandalf "ascended" after his battle with the Balrog. This makes him much more powerful than as he was when he was fighting the Balrog.

[kamikasei]

Gandalf the Grey.. yes.. I have read that Gandalf "ascended" after his battle with the Balrog. This makes him much more powerful than as he was when he was fighting the Balrog.

Yet he still is pretty clear that Sauron is out of his league; he's only willing to challenge the Witch-King in actual combat, and it's left open who would actually have won there. (Arguably, since so much of LotR is about providence, the fact that they didn't fight itself suggests the Witch-King would have triumphed.)

My point is simply that while the Istari are very powerful in the Third Age and certainly when measured against mortals, there's not really any suggestion that they're in the big leagues among the supernatural entities of Arda. Granted, I'm not sufficiently well-versed in my Warcraft lore to say whether Medivh compares favourably enough against similar beings in that setting for it to be relevant.

[Poison_Fish]

So super-powerful but mortal wizard vs divine servant to the greater powers. Hmm.

Well theoretically, being divine means being harder to kill in traditional ways. Saruman did die from a knife in the back but he'd been greatly weakened at the time, and it took a balrog to kill Gandalf, another Istari. And If I remember right Medivh was killed by some soldiers with swords. So for now I'm going to say Saruman.


Wait, the wand thing just hit me. I loved that movie!

To be fair on Medivh's part. He wasn't just killed by some soldiers with swords. He was killed by Anduin Lothar(One of the best human warriors) and Khadgar(He sealed the dark portal, was one of the most powerful wizards around). So, there were no slouches going after him.

Of course, in warcraft 1, it really was a group of soldiers. But blizz loves to change things so they actually make sense/sometimes fit.

[EvilElitest]

Meh, its hard. If this is Warcraft III Medivh, against Middle Earth Saurman, it would be easier. WC III Medivh against full powered Saurman (i think his name in that form was something with a C, Curunír or something like that) would be Saurman obviously. However Curunir (as the full powered version will be known) against Full powered Meivh? Tricky? Does Saurman have access to his evil army/powers.

In the end, its hard but i think Medivh takes the cake here, because he is literally infused with the power of the Titian and is a guardian. I don't know specifics

For the record, the valar are more like the Norse Gods, with the Malar being lesser forms. The Istair are more like arch angels
from
EE

[ArlEammon]

Meh, its hard. If this is Warcraft III Medivh, against Middle Earth Saurman, it would be easier. WC III Medivh against full powered Saurman (i think his name in that form was something with a C, Curunír or something like that) would be Saurman obviously. However Curunir (as the full powered version will be known) against Full powered Meivh? Tricky? Does Saurman have access to his evil army/powers.

In the end, its hard but i think Medivh takes the cake here, because he is literally infused with the power of the Titian and is a guardian. I don't know specifics

For the record, the valar are more like the Norse Gods, with the Malar being lesser forms. The Istair are more like arch angels
from
EE

Uh, no army I guess.

[EvilElitest]

Uh, no army I guess.

alright, in his true form, does he also have access to the forbidden lore taht Sauron taught him, or only the stuff he actually did in his true form (IE good magic only)
from
EE

[ArlEammon]

alright, in his true form, does he also have access to the forbidden lore taht Sauron taught him, or only the stuff he actually did in his true form (IE good magic only)
from
EE

Well, if Medivh is going to pull some kind of demonic stuff, then I think Saruman the White is a good idea.

[TheElfLord]

As has been brought up, Medivh changes over the course of the series. Which Medivh are we considering? The Warcraft 1 Medivh who created the Dark Portal? The Warcraft III Medivh who acts like a less powerful version of Gandalf? Another version I'm unfamiliar with? More definition will help the thread.

[EvilElitest]

Well, if Medivh is going to pull some kind of demonic stuff, then I think Saruman the White is a good idea.

As in Saurman prior to his fall (the white). If you mean after his fall from grace, then he is "Of many colors". Is this good or evil Saurman?
from
EE

[ArlEammon]

As in Saurman prior to his fall (the white). If you mean after his fall from grace, then he is "Of many colors". Is this good or evil Saurman?
from
EE

I'm proposing this is Saruman whenever he was the most powerful.... I don't know if this is when he was with Sauron or not.

As for Medivh, I didn't know his power level ever went under 9,000!

[EvilElitest]

I'm proposing this is Saruman whenever he was the most powerful.... I don't know if this is when he was with Sauron or not.

As for Medivh, I didn't know his power level ever went under 9,000!

Well at his most powerful he was good, but if you took his true form, then added his powers granted to him by Sauron i think he might have a chance.
from
EE

[Kaihaku]

Medivh will use his full powers, and Saruman is not on Middle Earth, so he may be more powerful since he does not have to restrain himself as he did on Middle Earth. Saruman is not restrained in his magical ability like he was on Middle Earth. Gandalf was hitting a balrog with lightning bolts in the Silmarillion(Or I think the Two Towers) and he was only a Grey. This is an unrestrained Saruman the White.

The Two Towers. It should be noted that the Five Wizards are of the Maiar and inherit significant power from that. Also, like everything else Tolkien, they are stronger in the past and diminish over time.

[EvilElitest]

would it work that Medivh has to kill the wizard form of Saurman, then kill his true form?
from
EE