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Enguhl
2008-09-29, 06:44 PM
Is there any way to create a good aligned lich? Aside from the obvious "I'm DM and I say it's so." obviously, I'm looking for something more actually in the rules.

RTGoodman
2008-09-29, 06:53 PM
There's literally a template called "Good Lich" in Monster of Faerun. I'll let you take a wild guess on what it is (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin).

EDIT: To be more specific, it basically talks about Good Liches have the same abilities as normal liches but with some additions and/or changes (they can turn undead and water-walk, for instance). It has a paragraph or so about generic Good Liches, Archliches (spellcasters that became liches for good reasons), and Baelnorns (elf liches that became undead to stay around and help their families). Archliches have standard lich abilities alongside water-walk, turn undead, animate dead, and projection. Baelnorns don't have phylacteries or auras or fear, but are otherwise like normal liches (with added Turn Undead).

Basically, "I'm the DM and I say so" is the official rule - just make a normal lich but say he's Good-aligned for whatever reason.

Stormageddon
2008-09-29, 06:55 PM
Is there any way to create a good aligned lich? Aside from the obvious "I'm DM and I say it's so." obviously, I'm looking for something more actually in the rules.

I found reference to a "Good Lich" in Libris Mortis. Sorry don't have the rules in front of me.

monty
2008-09-29, 06:56 PM
There are several other lich-like creatures. I think one is called Baelnorn or something like that.

Draken
2008-09-29, 07:19 PM
There is a good lich in the homebrew forum (not sure who did it, Krimm or Demented One). It is a deathless with a positive energy touch and instead of paralizys he imposes a geas.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-09-29, 07:36 PM
Well, you could be one of the "unique or rare exceptions" liches that are not evil.


Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.

monty
2008-09-29, 07:40 PM
Also, there's a spell from Book of Exalted Deeds called Sanctify the Wicked, which automatically changes your alignment to good.

JeminiZero
2008-09-29, 07:46 PM
Also you might make him a necropolitan, which has no alignment restrictions.

monty
2008-09-29, 07:59 PM
But that's not a lich in any way. There are lots of kinds of undead.

Devils_Advocate
2008-09-29, 08:05 PM
Basically, the rules have this to say on the subject of Good-aligned liches:

(A) Liches are always Evil.

(B) Except for these liches over here, they're Good!

I'm don't think that they actually specify anywhere what makes liches Evil, or what makes the special exception liches not Evil. So this is definitely one of those areas where the DM is free to make up whatever he wants, not just because it's a DM's right to override the official material, but because the official material is contradictory and incomplete. You basically ought to make something up, because it's an issue that really should be clarified one way or the other.

This depends, mind you, on the definition of Evil, something else that requires clarification. Maybe the official, cosmically sanctioned list of Evil actions has "being a lich" on it. It apparently has "being a zombie" on it. But it's the DM's prerogative to tweak that to something less ridiculous.

The Tome of Necromancy (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=632562) recommends consistency on the issue of whether negative energy and related things are Evil. (Consistency? In my Dungeons & Dragons?)

Erk
2008-09-29, 08:07 PM
All I can think of is dropping a house on a lich, then having another lich ask you "Are you a good lich, or a bad lich?"

monty
2008-09-29, 08:10 PM
I'm don't think that they actually specify anywhere what makes liches Evil, or what makes the special exception liches not Evil. So this is definitely one of those areas where the DM is free to make up whatever he wants, not just because it's a DM's right to override the official material, but because the official material is contradictory and incomplete. You basically ought to make something up, because it's an issue that really should be clarified one way or the other.

From the SRD entry on liches:


The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character.

It's still vague, but basically establishes that the process is so horrible that only an evil person could do it in the first place, or that doing so would force an alignment change.

monty
2008-09-29, 08:11 PM
All I can think of is dropping a house on a lich, then having another lich ask you "Are you a good lich, or a bad lich?"

What do we do with liches?
Burn!
And what do we burn apart from liches?
More liches! ...wood!


Now we need to test whether liches are made of wood.

Ascension
2008-09-29, 08:14 PM
The reason why Liches are generally evil is that, and I quote the MM, "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character."

I assume that this means the ritual to become a lich involves human sacrifice or something similar, and I further assume that the Archlich and Baelnorn don't have to do something "unspeakably evil" as part of becoming what they are.

wadledo
2008-09-29, 08:17 PM
It's still vague, but basically establishes that the process is so horrible that only an evil person could do it in the first place, or that doing so would force an alignment change.You could say that the character did it a different way, and not doing unspeakable evil to become a lich.
And then there's the lich like template on this here site, the bookish one.

monty
2008-09-29, 08:38 PM
You could say that the character did it a different way, and not doing unspeakable evil to become a lich.
And then there's the lich like template on this here site, the bookish one.

But that wouldn't be RAW, using the standard MM lich. Besides, my post was responding to the question of why standard liches are evil, not suggesting that they all are.

Calinero
2008-09-29, 08:43 PM
Yeah, the only way to have a good aligned lich would be to either have some sort of ritual or process to turn a person into a lich that wasn't evil (or could be performed upon an unwilling person), or to have a lich go through serious character development after their transformation. Redemption is theoretically possible, isn't it? Even for liches?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-29, 08:44 PM
Is there any way to create a good aligned lich? Aside from the obvious "I'm DM and I say it's so." obviously, I'm looking for something more actually in the rules.

Archliches (good by definition) and baelnorns (elven liches; they aren't limited to any alignment), both in Monsters of Faerūn, Archlich in the AD&D 2nd ed. Monstrous Manual, and neither in D&D 4E, since you didn't give an edition.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-29, 08:58 PM
There's also the curious note that technically a Helm of Opposite Alignment is not Mind-Affecting, and your standard Monster Manual Lich is not immune to the alignment reversal....

monty
2008-09-29, 09:02 PM
Yes, but unspeakably evil is very different for a drow than it is for a lizardfolk.

But not significantly so. Unspeakably evil for a lizardfolk is, well, unspeakable. It's probably more or less what humans would think of as evil. Drow are already usually evil, so unspeakable for them would have to be...even worse? Anyway, there's probably no race where unspeakably evil isn't really evil. Just because their breaking point is different doesn't mean it's not still bad. Two million is twice as much as one million, but compared to fifty, they're both really big.

Waspinator
2008-09-29, 09:08 PM
How about Eberron's Deathless?

Devils_Advocate
2008-09-29, 09:16 PM
Guys, obviously you can say that evil liches used some horrible evil ritual to become liches, and good liches didn't. But then the obvious next question is, "If the horrible evil ritual isn't necessary to become a lich -- as we know because the good liches became liches without it -- then why did the evil liches do it?"

I mean, the one of the ideas behind default core-only lichdom is that it's possible to attain eternal unlike by doing some appallingly immoral thing. Coming in and saying that, oh, the part with the appallingly immoral thing is actually optional, sort of pokes a bit of a hole in the whole concept.

It's the DM's job to sort stuff like this out by filling in the relevant details. Maybe in his setting, you do have to do great evil to become a lich, so there are no extra-special good liches. Maybe he decides that the evil thingy is contrived, especially with special unexplained exceptions thrown in, so liches can just plain be of any alignment. Maybe he decides that, instead of involving an evil ritual, becoming a lich destroys certain emotions, and thus this almost always makes the subject evil. Maybe he decides that the Evil method of becoming a lich is just way easier (for those who lack consciences), and that's why some spellcasters choose it over the ethical method.

Whatever. There are plenty of options to choose from. The important thing is that there be some sort of explanation. Having a thing be the way it is for an actual reason is sort of essential to creating a believable world.

ForzaFiori
2008-09-29, 09:17 PM
But not significantly so. Unspeakably evil for a lizardfolk is, well, unspeakable. It's probably more or less what humans would think of as evil. Drow are already usually evil, so unspeakable for them would have to be...even worse? Anyway, there's probably no race where unspeakably evil isn't really evil. Just because their breaking point is different doesn't mean it's not still bad. Two million is twice as much as one million, but compared to fifty, they're both really big.

what about for celestials? to them, unspeakably evil might just be neutral by human standards

Jayabalard
2008-09-29, 09:18 PM
Questions like this always seem kind of pointless. Why not come up with something other than a lich that's non-evil instead of trying to create an oxymoronic characterize ... I mean, at minimum, you can come up with a different name, and just reflavor the rest of the abilities, and not muddy the waters about whether liches are always evil or not.

Draco Dracul
2008-09-29, 09:26 PM
Logically if becoming a standard evil lich requires doing something unspeakablely evil, then becoming a good Lich must require you to do something unspeakablely good. I don't know how one does something unspeakablely good, but that should work.

monty
2008-09-29, 09:28 PM
what about for celestials? to them, unspeakably evil might just be neutral by human standards

Unspeakable. I'm sure celestials can talk about, say, slaughtering orphans, so it has to be worse than that. Maybe something along the lines of cutting out the heart of a virgin and forcing them to watch you offer it as a ritual sacrifice in their dying breaths. That's still speakable, obviously, but it's probably getting closer. And either of those things would be pretty much an auto-alignment-change act, so anything worse than that...you get the idea.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-09-29, 09:36 PM
There is a good lich in the homebrew forum (not sure who did it, Krimm or Demented One). It is a deathless with a positive energy touch and instead of paralizys he imposes a geas.

Sounds familiar... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47119)

Ascension
2008-09-29, 09:46 PM
Well, usually Evil takes the path of least resistance, so I'm figuring the Unspeakably Evil way would be much, much easier than the Speakable way. There are more Evil Liches than Non-Evil Liches simply because it's just a lot simpler to commit whatever atrocity is required than to do whatever it is Good Liches need to do, and on top of that, Good doesn't Lichify itself without a good reason, while Evil just does it for kicks.

monty
2008-09-29, 09:48 PM
Well, usually Evil takes the path of least resistance, so I'm figuring the Unspeakably Evil way would be much, much easier than the Speakable way. There are more Evil Liches than Non-Evil Liches simply because it's just a lot simpler to commit whatever atrocity is required than to do whatever it is Good Liches need to do, and on top of that, Good doesn't Lichify itself without a good reason, while Evil just does it for kicks.

I thought evil did it to make it easier to obtain Ultimate Arcane Power(tm).

Ascension
2008-09-29, 09:59 PM
I thought evil did it to make it easier to obtain Ultimate Arcane Power(tm).

Well, that too. And immortality. But really, does that come down to anything more than a desire for entertainment?

monty
2008-09-29, 10:02 PM
Well, that too. And immortality. But really, does that come down to anything more than a desire for entertainment?

:xykon: Because I'm BORED!

And the immortality is just to ensure you have enough time to obtain Ultimate Arcane Power(tm). Because we all know that once you get epic spellcasting, all other factors become irrelevant.

Mewtarthio
2008-09-29, 10:20 PM
One idea I like is that having your soul separate from your body makes it difficult to feel certain "good" emotions*, such as remorse and empathy. Good liches are just liches that haven't fallen yet. You can also mitigate the effects by visiting your phylactery every so often and even reverse them entirely by keeping it on your person for a good amount of time.

End result: Evil is still more popular than Good, since it's harder to find the phylactery of an Evil lich and a Good person would be more loath to risk the fall, but Good is more viable, and you don't have to worry about that "unspeakably evil" thing (particularly since people can speak quite a bit... plus, if it's unspeakably evil, how do the liches talk about it?). As an added bonus, your liches now have reason to make their phylacteries something other than a single grain of sand in an endless desert.

*By which I mean "emotions that drive you to do good," not "emotions that people think are good to have."

Khanderas
2008-09-30, 01:29 AM
I'd just like to state my personal opinion that, according to ANY alignment discussion, will hardly be shared by everyone... or most... perhaps not anyone but me.

Evil does not have to mean "destroy all good" and "kill all babies", it could very well be an apathy towards fellow sentient beings.
The everpresent, Belkar would be an example. He is an evil character in a good group, I don't think there is anyone who really doubts that anymore.

Now evil because, well frankly he likes to kill stuff sometimes for little reason. Sounds much like the average adventurer to me, where killing a dragon is coool as long as its scales isn't shiney.
Being of low wisdom, Belkar has a problem to turn this slaying mentality off. A caster, such as a lich, usually have the mental foresight to be able to control himself from stabbing/finger-of-death'ing random serfs.

Conclusion (my own that is): An evil lich may well function well in a normal group, provided he isnt Stupid Evil. Evil turns upon itself and all that. Perhaps he is planning to steal the McGruffin the party/BBEG has, perhaps he wants to save the world (because it is a nice place to "live" in), but it is more or less guaranteed to be intresting.

kbk
2008-09-30, 05:33 AM
I recall in my old 2nd ed monster manual there were liches, demiliches, and archliches.

I think archliches were supposedly created via divine magic, and tended to be good. Other liches were characterized as being created by arcane magic, and tended towards evil.

I also played in a 3rd edition game where a character was a good bard with the lich template. The template itself possess no alignment restrictions, and the character ascended to lichdom accidentally. He had stolen an evil wizard's phylactery and botched his ritual. The wizard was thwarted, but the bard had died in the process, becoming a lich and using the phylactery. This was admittedly against the specific rules which state that the lich must make their own phylactery, but it was allowed because it was just such a fun character concept

Ascension
2008-09-30, 08:07 AM
perhaps he wants to save the world (because it is a nice place to "live" in)

I can't remember which one it was, but I remember an old cartoon where the main recurring villain helped the heroes save the world from villains-of-the-week on several occasions simply because he couldn't conquer the world if he let someone else destroy it first.

TallTroll
2008-09-30, 08:13 AM
I remember reading an article in an old Dragon Mag about variant liches, and it talked about good liches, having attained that state via a different path. IIRC, the basis of it was that a sufficiently powerful, driven personality simply would not leave the body upon death (and indeed may not even realise the body was dead immediately), leaving a (maybe) good lich behind (evil and neutral could use this route also). No need for a ritual, so no evil actions to get there, but I think it said you could have an item constantly in the liches possession (a clerics symbol, or a mages staff, say) become its' phylactery, or an equivalent.

Of course, whatever the original alignment, separation from true life, and the horror of the undead state could eat at the mind of even the most focussed personality over the centuries, so it could slip to the evil side over time. You might even have to be careful what you say around a good lich - if it didn't realise it was dead, being forcefully confronted with its' true self could cause it to go Chaotic Insane, with hilarious consequences.

It was suggested that a good lich could be used as a patron for a party, since even good liches are rarely welcomed openly in the world, and need to use agents and proxies to advance their plans. Being very old, wise and powerful, they could have access to just about any item or information you found convenient, and would be involved in all sorts of plots and plans allowing you use use nearly any published or original material.

You could also set up the party eventually discovering that their lich patron has lost their mind, after a few morally questionable missions for instance. That can set up a nice campaign ending, with the party regretfully battling their old mentor, who of course is well aware of the extent of their powers... and their weaknesses. I wonder if any of those cool items that have been handed out recently have extra, hidden functions...?

monty
2008-09-30, 10:57 AM
I can't remember which one it was, but I remember an old cartoon where the main recurring villain helped the heroes save the world from villains-of-the-week on several occasions simply because he couldn't conquer the world if he let someone else destroy it first.

I think I know what you're talking about, but I can't quite remember what it was either.

Squider
2008-09-30, 12:49 PM
Just as a note, there are psionic lich's (called spectral salvents or somesuch) that can be good. I believe there in Complete Psi.