I think my DM has snapped

[Godna]

My DM has told me to make a factotum/ Artificer gestalt character in a non-gestalt game where the other players are either a psion(2 of them are), a Warmage(or warlock he cant make up his mind), a fighter (im going to help direct him toward a more optimized route if need be), and some other class that the last player hasnt told us. so i gotta ask what should i do? I expected to have a level 8 gestalt character(i've never made a gestalt) and I know the articifer is OP if your not careful. So what should i do?

[Godna]

any suggestions guys? anything?

[monty]

First, don't bump after only 18 minutes. Give people time to respond. Second, if you're worried about Artificer being overpowered, then focus on Factotum. Use Artificer to make items for the whole party (and then the other players will love you), and Factotum for combat and skills and so on.

[Hal]

Um, WHY does he want you to play a gestalt character in a non-gestalt game?

Given the classes he chose for you, I'm guessing he thinks the party lacks a crafter and a skill-monkey. I'm not sure what to say to that, except that there are probably better ways to go about this. Perhaps discussing with the entire group what the party make-up ought to look like. Players who don't get together to discuss their characters often end up with unbalanced parties.

[Ascension]

Umm... wow. He specifically asked you to be this much more powerful than anyone else?

My suggestion is this: Make yourself the team's skillmonkey and item-crafting machine. Don't apply your (significant) powers towards combat, let the others do that... you're just there to make them able to do combat. Use the Factotum side to pick up whatever skills the other party members are missing, use the Artificer side to make sure that Fighter has the best possible armor and weapons. If you RP it well they might not even notice how much better than everyone else you are.

I would also suggest to make the character an elderly smith who traveled extensively in his day to pick up new techniques for crafting. This explains his abstention from combat ("I'm too old for that, sonny boy!"), his numerous skills ("I once traveled with a thief name of Rakhan who taught me how to disable a trap like this..."), and his insane magic-item-crafting powers ("Here, let me show you how they forge a sword in the Underdark...").

[Godna]

I always tend to stay away from combat anyway since i always have a habit of overshadowing the others cause i tend to crit a lot no matter whos dice i use. So the stay out of combat thing i wont mind but what sort of feats should i focus on to make items since i think thats what he has in mind for my character. Also where can i find the sources for these classes?

[monty]

Artificer is in Eberron Campaign Setting; Factotum is in Dungeonscape.

[Godna]

I would also suggest to make the character an elderly smith who traveled extensively in his day to pick up new techniques for crafting. This explains his abstention from combat ("I'm too old for that, sonny boy!"), his numerous skills ("I once traveled with a thief name of Rakhan who taught me how to disable a trap like this..."), and his insane magic-item-crafting powers ("Here, let me show you how they forge a sword in the Underdark...").


I think i might use this. It fits with what he kinda told me my role in the group should be and i always loved being the old experienced adventurer. But how much of my resources should i put aside to make sure that they dont see as too much of a liability in combat because there characters arent exactly the most wise of people and if their characters get in a scuffle they decide that the wise old smith that made there weapons must be able to hold his own before dumping me. So what then? maybe short range teleport or invisibility?

[ocato]

I might add that it's a bit absurd that your DM is asking you to play a specific class, and a gestalt set-up in a non-gestalt game at that. Granted, I am a big opponent of "balanced" parties.

The DM knows who is in the party when he makes the quest/campaign, so unless he's buying/internet-thieving his quests, it should be no problem to cater to his players, since that's his audience. Punishing a bunch of people for wanting to play what they'll enjoy because it doesn't happen to include a rogue or a cleric seems a bit...draconian. But that's just my little rant.

As for you, grab the Legendary Artisan and Extraordinary Artisan feats from EbCS. That'll save you some gold and XP in making items for the party. I also suggest chain spell (for chaining buffs from your wands/scrolls to set the party up faster) and wand mastery to get more mileage out of cheaper wands. If you focus on buffing them and the occasional balancing pot-shot with your crossbow, you ought to be able to function as more of a guide. I second the age-category idea. Go old or so and RP an older sage/guide/mentor type.

[Godna]

what does wand mastery do? and what do you mean balancing shot with a crossbow?

[ocato]

Wand mastery increases the caster level of wands you use by 2 and increases the DC for spells from wands you use by 2.

What I meant was to balance the odds in combat. If you hang back and shoot at enemies every other turn or so, you will contribute towards them not getting over-run without dominating the fight.

[sonofzeal]

I think i might use this. It fits with what he kinda told me my role in the group should be and i always loved being the old experienced adventurer. But how much of my resources should i put aside to make sure that they dont see as too much of a liability in combat because there characters arent exactly the most wise of people and if their characters get in a scuffle they decide that the wise old smith that made there weapons must be able to hold his own before dumping me. So what then? maybe short range teleport or invisibility?
Artificers get very little in the way of actual offense unless they're willing to blow a lot of gold or XP. However, they make brilliant buffmonkeys. THAT should be your party roll, with the occasional use of Inspiration to get the extra buffing round, or to improve your defenses. Other than that, go nuts on the crafting, never mind that you're losing levels rapidly. You'll find it very hard to spend XP as fast as it comes in, and as a gestalt in a non-gestalt game, you should make it your goal to always be a level or two behind everyone else.

But yeah, do buff+utility, throw XP around like crazy, and play to have fun and make everyone else uber.

[Godna]

and what is inspiration about? I know its a factotum ability but what is it? and speaking of the factotum what all can they do to aid the group beside getting every skill as a class skill?

[Kaihaku]

I would also suggest to make the character an elderly smith who traveled extensively in his day to pick up new techniques for crafting. This explains his abstention from combat ("I'm too old for that, sonny boy!"), his numerous skills ("I once traveled with a thief name of Rakhan who taught me how to disable a trap like this..."), and his insane magic-item-crafting powers ("Here, let me show you how they forge a sword in the Underdark...").

That's a great idea.

[streakster]

Oooh! Don't be any old guide - be Santa Claus!

"Ho ho ho! What's in the bag of holding for you, Mr. Fighter? Why, it's a brand new Dancing Spiked Chain! Ho ho!"

Refer to your little constructs as your elves.

All your skills can be related back to Santa Claus somehow. Escape Artist: "Why, that wasn't any harder to squeeze through than a chimney!" Sense Motive: "I know who is naughty and nice!" , etc.

Refer to all skills and spells and class features you can't fluff as Santa-ish as "just a little Christmas Magic".

This even explains your extra actions - you do go around the world in a day, after all.


For build ideas, take some reserve feats - they're weak (won't bother you!), but will give a little spell you can cast in combat all day without worrying about it being overpowered. Winter's Blast fits Santa perfectly! Dimensional Jaunt does too.

[ocato]

Oooh! Don't be any old guide - be Santa Claus!

"Ho ho ho! What's in the bag of holding for you, Mr. Fighter? Why, it's a brand new Dancing Spiked Chain! Ho ho!"

Refer to your little constructs as your elves.

All your skills can be related back to Santa Claus somehow. Escape Artist: "Why, that wasn't any harder to squeeze through than a chimney!" Sense Motive: "I know who is naughty and nice!" , etc.

Refer to all skills and spells and class features you can't fluff as Santa-ish as "just a little Christmas Magic".

This even explains your extra actions - you do go around the world in a day, after all.


For build ideas, take some reserve feats - they're weak (won't bother you!), but will give a little spell you can cast in combat all day without worrying about it being overpowered. Winter's Blast fits Santa perfectly! Dimensional Jaunt does too.

Thread over.

[Godna]

Im doing that now for my Christmas one shot campaign


Hide: to this day children think im their parents hohoho

what about search, survival, or use rope?

[Prometheus]

That's brilliant, I don't know why no one has suggested playing St. Nicholas before.

[Ascension]

Im doing that now for my Christmas one shot campaign


Hide: to this day children think im their parents hohoho

what about search, survival, or use rope?

Search: Gotta be sure the parents didn't trap the chimney. Also helps with the not-stepping-on-the-stuff-strewn-across-the-floor in messy houses.

Survival: Well, he lives at the North Pole and supports hundreds of dependents. He's got to have some kind of uber survival skill.

Use Rope: He rappels down the chimneys, dontcha know?

[streakster]

Im doing that now for my Christmas one shot campaign


Hide: to this day children think im their parents hohoho

what about search, survival, or use rope?

Use Rope: "Why, you'd think none of you ever wrapped a present before! Now, the rabbit goes around the bridge, through the dungeon..."

Survival: When getting food: "Ho ho ho! Who wants milk and cookies?" Refuse to explain where you could have possibly gotten them. As for weather, just talk about the North Pole a lot. Tracks and such are "Christmas Magic" territory.

Search: Just mutter about how naughty the Goblins were to put traps there while clearing them away.

[Ionizer]

Oooh! Don't be any old guide - be Santa Claus!

"Ho ho ho! What's in the bag of holding for you, Mr. Fighter? Why, it's a brand new Dancing Spiked Chain! Ho ho!"

Refer to your little constructs as your elves.

All your skills can be related back to Santa Claus somehow. Escape Artist: "Why, that wasn't any harder to squeeze through than a chimney!" Sense Motive: "I know who is naughty and nice!" , etc.

Refer to all skills and spells and class features you can't fluff as Santa-ish as "just a little Christmas Magic".

This even explains your extra actions - you do go around the world in a day, after all.


For build ideas, take some reserve feats - they're weak (won't bother you!), but will give a little spell you can cast in combat all day without worrying about it being overpowered. Winter's Blast fits Santa perfectly! Dimensional Jaunt does too.

I think this link (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Santa.pdf) is appropriate...

It's 3.0, but should be fairly easy to convert to 3.5.

HO HO HO!!

[AstralFire]

Flawless Victory.

Streakster wins!

[streakster]

and what is inspiration about? I know its a factotum ability but what is it? and speaking of the factotum what all can they do to aid the group beside getting every skill as a class skill?


You pay inspiration points for some class features.

They can use spell-likes to buff or help out, I suppose. I forget if their healing applies to others. They can imitate, say, Shield Ally or Dragon Shaman Auras at level 19.

Mostly, what's been said already - use your Inspiration to get more buff time, or defend yourself. It's not like you'll need the combat help.

[Icewalker]

As per the earlier suggestion, as an excuse for your skillmonkey abilities, I suggest referencing an old rogue friend on a regular basis. ie, have part of your background be a long alliance with a rogue, traveling together for a long time. So you're an old crafter who has picked up a load of useful little tricks along his adventuring life.

As to use in combat, you probably don't want to be a liability. Make yourself capable, and then try to enter combat at the back of the party, focus on movements to support the rest of the party rather than dishing out damage yourself, that kind of thing. Makes you less important yourself in combat while still helping.

[KillianHawkeye]

I think this link (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Santa.pdf) is appropriate...

It's 3.0, but should be fairly easy to convert to 3.5.

HO HO HO!!

That is the single greatest thing I have seen all year. :smallbiggrin:

[Neon Knight]

Streakster's idea: Best thing ever.

[MartinHarper]

Have you asked the DM his reasons for wanting you to play this particular gestalt class combination?

[Eldariel]

You pay inspiration points for some class features.

They can use spell-likes to buff or help out, I suppose. I forget if their healing applies to others. They can imitate, say, Shield Ally or Dragon Shaman Auras at level 19.

You get to use Inspiration to heal everyone (2*Factotum-level + Int mod). Also, you use Inspiration to make improved skill checks, to improve your AC, to improve your saves, to improve your attack, to improve your damage and so on.

Oh yeah, you could pick up Craft Construct-feat from Artificer-side and make a bunch of golems. I personally like Greater Stone Golems. Oh yeah, and you could make mechanical reindeers to pull your sleight (Reindeer Effigies :P)

[Starsinger]

As a word of warning, a DM I once had used this as a terrible trick against us. We were told that we'd be playing two simultaneous parties (alternating back and forth) one a bunch of level 1 characters just starting out, and the other a bunch of higher level (IIRC it was like 15) adventurers who were out on an epic quest and somehow intertwined with ours. He also told us to optimize the level 15s fairly well since he was going to play harsh with the monsters for that party.

We seemed rather excited, as it sounded awesome. Then came the surprise. On game day he took the level 15 party from us and said, "Thanks. I was at a mind blank as far as Villains went."

[quillbreaker]

The Santa idea reeks of awesome.

If he's looking for a crafter/skillmonkey, though, you can do the same thing single-classed without too much difficulty. A wizard/rogue/(arcane trickster or daggerspell mage) will do you pretty well.

[Eldariel]

A wizard/rogue/(arcane trickster or daggerspell mage) will do you pretty well.

Eh, straight Artificer is better. Arcane Trickster and Daggerspell Mage are both fairly crappy - the only really decent Rogue/Wizard is Unseen Seer. But yea, if he wanted a crafter/skill monkey/support caster, Artificer would've been plenty (4+Int skills with Int-focus and Trapfinding...). Adding Factotum to that just makes things go dumb (as in "extra standard action", "natural healing", "level to all skills", "int to saves", "int to AC", "int to all Str/Dex/Con skills", "int to damage"-dumb).

[quillbreaker]

Arcane Trickster and Daggerspell Mage are both fairly crappy - the only really decent Rogue/Wizard is Unseen Seer.

I'm not familiar with Unseen Seer, and apparently I'm not that familiar with Artificer either. I didn't know the skill selection was that good. If it is, you could just go Artificer / Human Paragon and call it a day.

[Eldariel]

Unseen Seer is a full casting PrC from Complete Mage. It gives 6+Int skills from a solid list - the main problem with Arcane Trickster are the horrible skill requirements (Decipher Script, Escape Artist, stuff normal Wizard/Rogue doesn't really need), which means that in practice, you don't really have the skills to be an arcane skill monkey. Unseen Seer has more reasonable skill prerequisites (in skills you may actually use), and the extra skillpoints per level, which makes it actually function in the Wizard/Rogue role.

As far as Artificer goes, you're right that the skill selection is quite limited: He does the "Trapfinding" and "Lockpicking"-thing along with solid knowledges, but that's about it. Stealth (without spells), spotting (once again, without spells) and talking (once again, without Mindraping everyone) isn't his thing. If that really were an issue though, a simple 1-level dip in Factotum with Able Learner solves it. But if the party just needs a trapfinder/knowledge mole/magic device user, a straight Artificer is perfect.

[Mando Knight]

My DM has told me to make a factotum/ Artificer gestalt character in a non-gestalt game where the other players are either a psion(2 of them are), a Warmage(or warlock he cant make up his mind), a fighter (im going to help direct him toward a more optimized route if need be), and some other class that the last player hasnt told us. so i gotta ask what should i do? I expected to have a level 8 gestalt character(i've never made a gestalt) and I know the articifer is OP if your not careful. So what should i do?

A caster gestalt in the same game as an initially non-optimized, non-gestalt fighter? Ouch. You're going to outclass him. Fast. Like the US (AD 2008) versus the Roman Empire (AD 0).

[Winterwind]

Does your DM happen to be one of the more railroady kind, or at least one who will not hesitate to pull off a plot twist affecting the players heavily without giving them much chance to change its course? Because this practically reeks of a trap - some dastardly plot involving your character specifically, that will make you pay for your power surplus dearly.

[Waspinator]

Does your DM happen to be one of the more railroady kind, or at least one who will not hesitate to pull off a plot twist affecting the players heavily without giving them much chance to change its course? Because this practically reeks of a trap - some dastardly plot involving your character specifically, that will make you pay for your power surplus dearly.

This seems likely. This reeks of a trap like Ackbar reeks of fish.
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4092/akbarmf6.jpg

[Mando Knight]

This seems likely. This reeks of a trap like Ackbar reeks of fish.
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4092/akbarmf6.jpg

Thus, there is only one way to play this character. You must swipe the stats for a Mon Cal from one of the SW RPG editions and adjust it to work in 3.5. Then, every time a trap activates, you must shout...
...
...
...If I had to tell you, then the build already fails.

[Godna]

A little bit more information on the game. It Seems he is running a half-life 2(ish) game. The psions and warlock scientists that explain their powers through technology. The fighter is Gordon Freeman and the other character is a homebrew(she got from the internet called an athlete) which makes fighter look strong. Gordon cant be trust with any other weapon than his crowbar so and he doesn't mind so i'm going to convince him to optimize power attack a bit. The athlete will be getting the rest of the artillery that Gordon doesn't use.
My character hasn't shown up yet,but i'm making the group a little more self suffient




p.s. The Crazy cleric is in our group also.

[Godna]

and there is no way i could get away with it as much as i like to.

[ashmanonar]

Thus, there is only one way to play this character. You must swipe the stats for a Mon Cal from one of the SW RPG editions and adjust it to work in 3.5. Then, every time a trap activates, you must shout...
...
...
...If I had to tell you, then the build already fails.

We have the mini for him to use too.

(Inside joke; our 3.5 party, for a while, had somebody who would use an Ackbar miniature from a star wars game as his mini. He continually failed at actually fulfilling his Ackbar responsibilities.)