Vaarsuvius and certain templates that everyone keeps associating him with [Spoilers]

[Finwe]

A great deal of people lately seem to think that V's actions in the past few strips clearly mean that V either is or will soon become a Lich. I find that speculation to be excessively unlikely - here's a few of many reasons that, not only would becoming a lich not be in line with V's goals, but would in fact be quite detrimental to them.

1. Lich has an ECL of +4. This would severely impede V's spell progression, making his goal of Ultimate arcane power even further away.

2. To become a Lich, Vaarsvius would need:
a. To commit an immensely evil act.
//b. A high-ish level diving spell-caster to aide him (not sure that's correct, actually)
c. To sacrifice his elf-anity.
d. Time, money, XP - none of which he has to spare
e. To be evil. Not just 'evil to save the world' evil, but 'I'm so evil I create life just to be able to snuff it out in sick, demented ways' evil.

In turn, he would gain:
a. Infinite lifespan. Whoop de do - he's an elf. He'll live far beyond the comic's length if not killed by someone.
b. Damage reduction, paralyzing touch, fear aura, a few other miscellaneous abilities. Pretty useful, but has nothing to do with arcane power.
c. Ability increases. Increases his spell DC's by 1 point. Ooh, goody!
And none of these abilities might help him to locate the other party members.

3. He would alienate himself from pretty much every ally he has, as well as his spouse.

4. He would give himself an unnecessary weakness to positive energy, on a boat full of paladins, all of whom would attempt to kill him should they find out.

Lichdom has nothing to do with arcane power, ultimate or otherwise, and he has no other good motivations to do something so drastic (and, frankly, stupid).

[FujinAkari]

You seem to be forgetting the biggest reason it won't happen...

One of V's barred schools is Necromancy. He is permanently barred from using the majority of a Lich's special abilities.

[Theodoriph]

A great deal of people lately seem to think that V's actions in the past few strips clearly mean that V either is or will soon become a Lich. I find that speculation to be excessively unlikely - here's a few of many reasons that, not only would becoming a lich not be in line with V's goals, but would in fact be quite detrimental to them.

1. Lich has an ECL of +4. This would severely impede V's spell progression, making his goal of Ultimate arcane power even further away.

2. To become a Lich, Vaarsvius would need:
a. To commit an immensely evil act.
//b. A high-ish level diving spell-caster to aide him (not sure that's correct, actually)
c. To sacrifice his elf-anity.
d. Time, money, XP - none of which he has to spare
e. To be evil. Not just 'evil to save the world' evil, but 'I'm so evil I create life just to be able to snuff it out in sick, demented ways' evil.

In turn, he would gain:
a. Infinite lifespan. Whoop de do - he's an elf. He'll live far beyond the comic's length if not killed by someone.
b. Damage reduction, paralyzing touch, fear aura, a few other miscellaneous abilities. Pretty useful, but has nothing to do with arcane power.
c. Ability increases. Increases his spell DC's by 1 point. Ooh, goody!
And none of these abilities might help him to locate the other party members.

3. He would alienate himself from pretty much every ally he has, as well as his spouse.

4. He would give himself an unnecessary weakness to positive energy, on a boat full of paladins, all of whom would attempt to kill him should they find out.

Lichdom has nothing to do with arcane power, ultimate or otherwise, and he has no other good motivations to do something so drastic (and, frankly, stupid).




One predominant theory actually centres around V becoming a Baelnorn I believe (some kind of good lich...I know nothing about them). I'm not sure what the requirements are for that, though I'm sure they're fairly similar. Just thought I'd mention it in case there's an important distinction between the two.

[Corwin Weber]

You seem to be forgetting the biggest reason it won't happen...

One of V's barred schools is Necromancy. He is permanently barred from using the majority of a Lich's special abilities.

That's......

....a really good point actually. I'd totally forgotten about that.

[Finwe]

You seem to be forgetting the biggest reason it won't happen...

One of V's barred schools is Necromancy. He is permanently barred from using the majority of a Lich's special abilities.

What rule bars a wizard who barred necromancy from using a lich's special abilities? I'm not arguing, just curious.

[FujinAkari]

What rule bars a wizard who barred necromancy from using a lich's special abilities? I'm not arguing, just curious.

If you bar a school of magic, you are not allowed to cast spells or use magic items of any type that rely on that school of magic. This would include a phylactery and may also include special abilities that mimic necromantic spells.

[Theodoriph]

If you bar a school of magic, you are not allowed to cast spells or use magic items of any type that rely on that school of magic. This would include a phylactery and may also include special abilities that mimic necromantic spells.



A Lich/Baelnorn's abilities powers are supernatural abilities. V could use them.

The d20srd only says this about specialization:

"Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later. "

It only has to do with spells. Supernatural abilities are fine.

[Dehumanizer]

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baelnorn):


They are lich-like creatures that appear as impressive-looking elves with shriveled skin and glowing white eyes.

OK, so V's eyes aren't exactly white, but...

[Amhenia]

You seem to be forgetting the biggest reason it won't happen...

One of V's barred schools is Necromancy. He is permanently barred from using the majority of a Lich's special abilities.

Didnt V had Vampiric Touch in his/her spellbook? (comic 45), so that means Necromancy is not one of his barred schools.

Maybe i miss something in the comic but the only school we know 100% sure he/she has barred is conjuration.

Another question are we sure V Specialized school is evocation? (yes almost all his/her spells are from this school) but maybe his/her specialized school is divination (:smallconfused:) (that mean only 1 school barred).

[Enlong]

Didnt V had Vampiric Touch in his/her spellbook? (comic 45), so that means Necromancy is not one of his barred schools.

Maybe i miss something in the comic but the only school we know 100% sure he/she has barred is conjuration.

Another question are we sure V Specialized school is evocation? (yes almost all his/her spells are from this school) but maybe his/her specialized school is divination (:smallconfused:) (that mean only 1 school barred).
OtOoPCs spoiler
V put down Wizard (Evoker) on his application to Roy's group. That means s/he most definitely specializes in evocations.

[Chronos]

Didnt V had Vampiric Touch in his/her spellbook? (comic 45), so that means Necromancy is not one of his barred schools.More precisely, it means that it wasn't one of es barred schools. The rules changed when they upgraded from 3.0 to 3.5 in the first comic. As a 3.5 evoker, V must have two barred schools, and by process of elimination, Conjuration and Necromancy are the only ones we've never seen em use. E could still have the spell left in es spellbook from that time, though.


A Lich/Baelnorn's abilities powers are supernatural abilities. V could use them.Yes, but a phylactery has an aura of "strong necromancy".

[David Argall]

V as a lich would be much the same as V as a wizard-cleric. Few if any of the limits on one class travel to the other. So V's limits on wizardly abilities are not limits on any lich abilities.

However they are limits on becoming a lich. V will definitely need the help of somebody else in order to become a lich, and merely working herself to death is not going to cut it. [And since the story already has a lich, it is most unlikely to get another one.]

[Mina Kobold]

V is going to be like Darf Vader following af important goal (revenge mother and save wife/find friend (Haley is the only one who treath V as a friend) reach ultimate power) so much that you fall of the trail (DV kills wife/V dunno... yet) and just try to get power. Hopefull V turns back again like DV but maybee not...:eek:

DUNN dunn dun
:eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Lamech]

Becoming a lich takes 120 (or maybe 240) days of sitting around making magic an magic item if I recall correctly. V has sunk quite a large amount of time into researching spells. The greater scrying was probably maxed. So 56 days. The animal messenger was probably pretty high too. As has been pointed out V would need help, with necromancy. So umm... no he isn't becoming a lich anytime soon.

That being said, the demon smacked V around pretty hard, but V didn't even get scratched. His eyes started glowing too, something that doesn't normally happen with spell casters. So I would say possibly V may be trying to stick some sort of template or enhancement on his self, but I don't think its lichdom.

Slightly off topic, but maybe Xykon is trying to gain demi-lichdom. Could that be what he is spending his time doing. It would fit nicely with the whole the order is getting more and more doomed.

[XenoTherapy]

Just out of curiosity, how do we know V had specialized?

[hamishspence]

Repeated use of the word Evoker, rather than Wizard, to describe V, especially in the books: cast descriptions, and the prequel Origin of PCs.

[XenoTherapy]

Ah. Thank you.

[leprecon]

i would like to say something about v.

v is not a him

v is not a she

v is an it :sigh:

[Greep]

i would like to say something about v.

v is not a him

v is not a she

v is an it :sigh:

tho in the forums it tends to be a hir :P and "ey" whatever that stands for.

[GSFB]

technically speaking, there is no necromancy requirement to become a lich. however, as a DM, I would rule that the process of becoming a lich and creating a phylactery, by definition, is necromantic. therefore, I would "house rule" that a character with necromancy prohibited could not complete the transformation without the help of at least one other caster.

In the prequel book, Xykon did not become a lich on his own. He had help from Redcloak. Xykon certainly has necromantic spells, but he is a sorcerer with a limited choice of spells. One could argue that the long transformation takes many spells of many types, and that a spell caster with a limited spell selection must at least have MANY necromantic spells, not just a few, and might need some "universal" spells like Limited Wish. Also, at that time in the story, Xykon was unable to cast all his spells. So, at least in this story, there is precedent for a caster needing help from a second caster to become a lich.

That said, I do not believe V can become a lich, or a baelnorm, on his/her own. However, it may be (and I am not saying it IS or SHOULD be, but MIGHT be) that V could cross a line and definitively be "on the path" to lichdom and only in need of some last bit of necromantic power.

[Finwe]

However, it may be (and I am not saying it IS or SHOULD be, but MIGHT be) that V could cross a line and definitively be "on the path" to lichdom and only in need of some last bit of necromantic power.

But why would V *want* to be a lich? He has almost nothing to gain from it, and a lot to loose. It's entirely possible to be an evil spellcaster and NOT be a lich, you know.

[Laurentio II]

i would like to say something about v.

v is not a him

v is not a she

v is an it :sigh:
Your opinion. While valid as any other, it's not objective. I personally (among others) think that he is male, some one consider he female. Then there a re androgynous, bisexuals, and ninjas twins theories.

[derfenrirwolv]

V is specialized, and (one of ?) his barred school(s?) is conjuration

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html

[Starbuck_II]

A great deal of people lately seem to think that V's actions in the past few strips clearly mean that V either is or will soon become a Lich. I find that speculation to be excessively unlikely - here's a few of many reasons that, not only would becoming a lich not be in line with V's goals, but would in fact be quite detrimental to them.

1. Lich has an ECL of +4. This would severely impede V's spell progression, making his goal of Ultimate arcane power even further away.

2. To become a Lich, Vaarsvius would need:
a. To commit an immensely evil act.
//b. A high-ish level diving spell-caster to aide him (not sure that's correct, actually)
c. To sacrifice his elf-anity.
d. Time, money, XP - none of which he has to spare
e. To be evil. Not just 'evil to save the world' evil, but 'I'm so evil I create life just to be able to snuff it out in sick, demented ways' evil.


a. is false. Liches do not have to commit evil. Read Origin of Evil book, Xylon didn't do evil until after he turned.
b. No you don't need any divine help.
c. Yes, he would be a Elf lich.
d. Yes, that takes stuff.
e. No, liches do not have to be that evil just evil. However, you start caring less about life when you turn evil (at least Xylon did)

[Laurentio II]

a. is false. Liches do not have to commit evil. Read Origin of Evil book, Xylon didn't do evil until after he turned.
Are we speaking of the same person?
Killing your whole family is, by many standard, evil

b. No you don't need any divine help.
As the " // " should have hinted to you, it is an alternative do "a". Call it "A2".

c. Yes, he would be a Elf lich.
An Elf is almost unaging. What Finwe means is that Vaarsuvius doesn't need to became a lich to prolong his life.

e. No, liches do not have to be that evil just evil. However, you start caring less about life when you turn evil (at least Xylon did)
Monster Manual. Read alignment.

[Yarram]

Despite all that though, I think it's pretty unlikey V will become a lich. Ey just hasn't had enough time to meet the requirements of a lich.

[Desilva]

Any and all arguments against V's lichdom can be house-ruled or obscure supplement'ed away.

And, personally, I think it would not only be a logical final step for V in his progressing madness, it would be awesome!

[Zordrath]

To me, it would merely distract from Xykon's uniqueness and, more importantly, awesomeness, if one member of the Order would have all the abilities he has.

Also, as Finwe already said, I don't see what V would actually gain from it. You don't turn into a lich by accident simply because you're casting aside moral restrictions and work more than is healthy - you have to make a very conscious, and very lengthy, effort to do so. I'm sure V would rather spend that amount of time researching new scrying spells.

Additionally, V seems to be quite proud of being an elf, and appears to hold his/her marriage in high regard. Becoming a lich would make him/her lose both.

[Sopor42]

Didnt V had Vampiric Touch in his/her spellbook? (comic 45), so that means Necromancy is not one of his barred schools.


I'm new to OOTS and to D&D, but I don't see any mention of Vampiric Touch in comic 45 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0045.html). What am I missing?

[Lira]

I'm new to OOTS and to D&D, but I don't see any mention of Vampiric Touch in comic 45 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0045.html). What am I missing?He meant comic 49 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html).

[Sopor42]

Ah-hah! Thanks Lira. I checked 45, 145, 245, 345, 445, 450, and 545, was really confused...

[David Argall]

Didnt V had Vampiric Touch in his/her spellbook? (comic 45), so that means Necromancy is not one of his barred schools.

While it would seem V has VT in his book, based on 49, this is more likely due to writer error or excused as due to the rules change from 3.0. V could cast it under 3.0, and thus had it in her book, but could not under 3.5.
As has been noted, V has cast spells of the other candidate schools, and so pretty much has to have barred Necromancy.