Help, Concerning power levels..

[BRC]

So, my current campaign is mostly in a city against humanoid opponents. Now this isn't a problem, the problem is, as my PC's level up, how do I justify things being threats against them. For their main foes (A conspiracy of wizards) this isn't a problem, but that's not all they are using.
They go up against a theives guild, how do I handle these thugs using +1 weapons. And what about the City Guard, If the PC's get caught breaking into a house and people start screaming for the city guard, I don't want "Alright, fighter, stand at the alley entrence and hold off the first level warriors while the rest of us finish up here" to be a valid tactic, I want "Aw hell, alright, split up, take off your cloak, throw on a hat, and hide in the crowd until this blows over" to be the good choice. How do I do this without making a police force of 5th level fighters with +3 greatswords?

[AstralFire]

Be aware that the police as a whole never sleeps, while the party almost certainly does. The police is free to use guerilla tactics to bring down these outlaws if they know who they are, and it can make obtaining food, supplies and rest very hard on them.

For direct encounters, if it's a big city (Sharn, Neverwinter, Greyhawk), a police force with officers as high as 8th level (and underlings as high as 6th) I can see. Rough-and-tumble big cities like Stormreach, Waterdeep and of course Sigil can go even bigger.

If you're not in one of those cities, you may want to also consider:
- Lowering their rate of accumulation of magic items
- Lowering their leveling rate

[Tsotha-lanti]

Levels are an abstract representation of power and story importance in relation to the PCs. That is all. It's not like anyone but you is even going to know what level everyone is, precisely.

Edit:

To use an example: If the PCs, at level 8, run into a team of Zhentarim, it'll be, say, a level 7 wizard and 6 level 5 fighters. If the PCs, at level 15, run into a similarly story-important party of Zhentarim, they'll be, say, a level 15 wizard, a level 13 cleric, and 8 level 11 fighters.

[jcsw]

Have the authorities call in the support of large scale organizations to lend aid in stopping these powerful troublemakers from disturbing the peace.

Start relatively small, the local lord places bounties on the PCs heads with the assassin's guild. Then a local high-level wizard is sent to provide backup... The church of St. Cuthbert lends its services to the Law. The nearby wizard's guild... Etc etc.

It makes sense anyway, as they level up, they grow in (in)fame, meriting larger forces.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Simple. Numbers.

20 2nd level Warriors armed with basic weapons converging on them are going to put them down, and if this is a universe where Authority=Asskicking, the boss could be higher level than the party.

[Tokiko Mima]

So, my current campaign is mostly in a city against humanoid opponents. Now this isn't a problem, the problem is, as my PC's level up, how do I justify things being threats against them. For their main foes (A conspiracy of wizards) this isn't a problem, but that's not all they are using.
They go up against a theives guild, how do I handle these thugs using +1 weapons. And what about the City Guard, If the PC's get caught breaking into a house and people start screaming for the city guard, I don't want "Alright, fighter, stand at the alley entrence and hold off the first level warriors while the rest of us finish up here" to be a valid tactic, I want "Aw hell, alright, split up, take off your cloak, throw on a hat, and hide in the crowd until this blows over" to be the good choice. How do I do this without making a police force of 5th level fighters with +3 greatswords?

Well, you need CR appropriate encounters to challenge them, however that happens. The city guard is going to learn about the group sooner or later. If the average cop on the street doesn't suffice to take the PC's into custody, they'll call in a team that can, because calling for backup is what cops do before they take any potentially dangerous action. Maybe stat up a SWAT response team for when the PCs start pillaging?

Also remember that any level 1 NPC does have a one in 20 chance of hitting, so a fighter can't just ignore an endless stream of low level foes even with a very high AC, especially when some of them start shooting bows or crossbows from a distance.

Also, I would look to a feat like Vow of Poverty, and use the bonuses there to replace the wealth by level equivalent PC's would have. That way your higher level NPC's don't have super valuable items, but still have similar attacks/defenses.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Simple. Numbers.

20 2nd level Warriors armed with basic weapons converging on them are going to put them down, and if this is a universe where Authority=Asskicking, the boss could be higher level than the party.

Not if they're level 5 or above, or thereabouts. The higher the level, the more inconsequential numbers. At level 20, 10,000 level 2s are a nonissue, except as politics and economics are concerned.

[Yakk]

As players level up in a game with as steep a power curve as D&D, the kind of things that are a threat to the party can and should change.

The city guard should be a bunch of level 1 to 5 warriors, possibly abstractly stated out. As the party gains levels, the average member of the city guard is no longer a problem. Elite members of the city guard end up being problems.

Eventually, no member of the city guard is a challenge. However, in a world with the power slope of D&D, I'd expect there to be extremely powerful retainers to the various nobles and merchants. And some of these do not like having their city turned into a blood bath. And many of them will not take kindly to an out-of-control, unpredicable, power center (the PCs).

All of this are far-ranging consequences. In the short term, skilled PCs can kill city guards with little stopping them. And that is acceptable. The only thing holding them back from killing city guards (at mid-to-high level) should be the wanton slaughter it requires.

Note that city guards won't charge heedlessly into a blender either -- they'll stay back. They exist to keep the general populance in line, not heroic beings capable of slaying dragons by themselves.

In 4e, this is made explicit via the tier system. In 3e, this is simply implicit from the power curve.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Consider, also, that any city on the level of Waterdeep will retain some dozens of adventurers as a sort of SWAT team (collateral damage is usually high, so they only get deployed when really necessary), and most cities are likely to be home to some high-level NPCs, many of whom may be quite civic-minded.

[horseboy]

Then there's always the law itself. Wearing armour is a threat to the guards, so make the wearing of armour illegal. Likewise martial weapons. You can always use things like "Peaceknots" to hold weapons as acceptable and Rope Use useful. Then there's things like registration and licensing. If you can blow up someone's brain you can bet Big Brother wants to know where you are in case people's brains start blowing up. The Man has all kinds of ways of keeping people down.

[Starbuck_II]

They go up against a theives guild, how do I handle these thugs using +1 weapons.

They can use alchemy items (ranged touch to hit), Chill Touch daggers (from Magic Item Compendruim), etc. Use smarts not force.



How do I do this without making a police force of 5th level fighters with +3 greatswords?

Why not give them Chill Touch daggers from Magic Item Compendruim?
They do only 1d6 + no STr bonus to damage, but are melee touch. They cheap too.

They makes it easy to hit enemy (ala PCs).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

As people have said, the average guard aren't a threat. The special guard, who normally are out of town as city-sponsored adventurers infiltrating the Orc horde and killing their chieftain, are a threat, and can show up in an hour or so if there's a threat. When the PCs are too rough for even that, the guard calls in a favor from the temples of Heironeous and St Cuthbert, as well as reminding the Wizards' Guild just what they agreed to for the tax break, and the party gets faced with Batman and a couple Clericzilla's who are annoyed at both the town being turned into a bloodbath and having their dinner interrupted.

As for making the thieves a threat, why are they fighting? They're thieves. They run, and if the players don't manage to catch them, they end up with poisoned darts in their backs and their spell component pouches missing. Think Tucker, but worse. :smallamused:

[Person_Man]

Don't railroad your PCs. If they choose a tactic, let them.

Having said that, if there's a gang of 4-6 cop killers walking around town, you can assume that everyone in town fears them and would flee on site, and that the town guard would set up a brute squad, or hire bounty hunters, or form a SWAT team or something similar to hunt them down.

[Another_Poet]

If it works for the flavour of your campaign, the city authorities could have some summoning tricks up their sleeves.

Let's say the mayor/baron/governor/king is a paladin. Maybe he has a standing agreement with his god(s) that a Solar can be sent in here and there as needed, for major threats. Or maybe his gods have a number of demons or devils in custody, who work off their sentence by aiding the town guard when needed.

If the city is run by one or more wizards there could be some really cool critters available to the guard, even if they are too powerful to be normally summoned.

These summoned monsters wouldn't be used often, but would be called in for emergencies and would be a serious threat. Depending on how you set it up, every town guard captain could carry a summoning whistle. The whistle only works for fully sworn-in members of the guard and is worthless to the PCs, and the captains have strict instructions not to blow it unless absolutely necessary.

Have fun!

ap

[Mr.Bookworm]

Not if they're level 5 or above, or thereabouts. The higher the level, the more inconsequential numbers. At level 20, 10,000 level 2s are a nonissue, except as politics and economics are concerned.

Remember the OotS thing?

Twenty level twos, saps.

That's...

4 sap attacks a round. Assuming masterwork saps, 2nd level Warriors, 14 Strength. That's a +5 attack bonus. So they're going to be rolling an average of 15. That usually can't hit a fifth level character. On a 19, though, it's 24. That might be able to hit low-AC characters.

I'm using saps in the assumption of them wanting to be brought down non-lethally, and giving them masterwork to reflect good equipment. Using longswords gets the numbers down a bit.

And on a 20, you auto-hit. That's at least a 1/5 chance per round that someone will get slapped with a sap.

Saps do 1d6 nonlethal damage. 5 nonlethal damage.

5d10 hit points, 10+5+5+5+5=30 HP for a Fighter. 5d4, 4+2+2+2+2=12 for a Wizard. 5d6 for a Rogue, 6+3+3+3+3=18 for a Rogue, and 5d8, 8+4+4+4+4=24 for a Cleric.

So, it'll take about 6 hits to bring down a Fighter. 3 for a Wizard. 4 for the Rogue, and 5 for the Cleric.

That's 30 rounds of whaling on the Fighter. 15 of hitting the Wizard. 20 for the Rogue. And 25 for the Cleric. If you have 50 mooks, that's doable.

Fighter can kill 1 a round, probably. Wizard can kill a few, but he'll eventually run out of spells. Rogue can kill one every two rounds or so, maybe, more during rounds with Sneak Attack damage. The Cleric can kill maybe one every two rounds, occasionally once a round.

10 rounds. 10 dead mooks from the Fighter, maybe 6, being generous, for the Wizard. Say the same for the Rogue, and 8 for the Cleric. That's 30 dead mooks.

That leaves the Fighter with 6 nonlethal damage, so 24 HP effectively. 6 for the Wizard, so 6 HP effectively. 6 for the Rogue, so 12 HP, and 6 for the Cleric, so 18.

There are 20 mooks left.

So, the PCs can probably win my version of it, using a lot of assumptions, including the mooks willingness to pile on forever, the PCs willingness to kill law-abiding officers, and averages of dice.

That, of course, has tactics never entering into it. Longswords change it a bit, and archers or any other sort of basic military thinking would probably win it.

And higher-level characters, or better equipment, would change it a ton.

Anyway.

If my math is wrong, please tell me, but I'm sure someone will anyway even I didn't ask.

[busterswd]

Don't railroad your PCs. If they choose a tactic, let them.

Having said that, if there's a gang of 4-6 cop killers walking around town, you can assume that everyone in town fears them and would flee on site, and that the town guard would set up a brute squad, or hire bounty hunters, or form a SWAT team or something similar to hunt them down.

This. You don't have to do anything special, just have a realistic response and don't protect them if they do something stupid.

Ask yourself: why don't criminals in real life just invest in heavy weaponry and kill patrolmen who see them committing crimes to avoid getting arrested?

[BRC]

@ Person: This isn't for railroading purposes. I actually specifically take steps to AVOID railroading in my campaign ( I try to include at least three different approaches the PC's could take, so I can adapt much easier to whatever they do. I like to think of it as a subway.)

Thanks for the advice. For various reasons, long-term trouble with the City Guard isn't a problem, well, it is a problem for the PC's, a very big one, it's just not one for me.
I was talking more short-term stuff, the city is rather big (The setting is industrialized). Though the guard could, and would, get help, by the time they figure out how tough the PC's are, find a wizard at the university who prepped for combat today(Most wizards in the university don't wake up and say "my, I do believe I'm going to need to kill things today". Heck, only a few of them probably know combat spells.)/ Get part of the millitary mobilized, the PC's have had plenty of time to slaughter whatever 1st level warriors happened to be nearby. Ah well, this thread has given me a couple ideas, thanks.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Remember the OotS thing?
Twenty level twos, saps.

That's...

4 sap attacks a round. Assuming masterwork saps, 2nd level Warriors, 14 Strength. That's a +5 attack bonus. So they're going to be rolling an average of 15. That usually can't hit a fifth level character. On a 19, though, it's 24. That might be able to hit low-AC characters.

I'm using saps in the assumption of them wanting to be brought down non-lethally, and giving them masterwork to reflect good equipment. Using longswords gets the numbers down a bit.

And on a 20, you auto-hit. That's at least a 1/5 chance per round that someone will get slapped with a sap.

Saps do 1d6 nonlethal damage. 5 nonlethal damage.

5d10 hit points, 10+5+5+5+5=30 HP for a Fighter. 5d4, 4+2+2+2+2=12 for a Wizard. 5d6 for a Rogue, 6+3+3+3+3=18 for a Rogue, and 5d8, 8+4+4+4+4=24 for a Cleric.

So, it'll take about 6 hits to bring down a Fighter. 3 for a Wizard. 4 for the Rogue, and 5 for the Cleric.

That's 30 rounds of whaling on the Fighter. 15 of hitting the Wizard. 20 for the Rogue. And 25 for the Cleric. If you have 50 mooks, that's doable.

Fighter can kill 1 a round, probably. Wizard can kill a few, but he'll eventually run out of spells. Rogue can kill one every two rounds or so, maybe, more during rounds with Sneak Attack damage. The Cleric can kill maybe one every two rounds, occasionally once a round.

10 rounds. 10 dead mooks from the Fighter, maybe 6, being generous, for the Wizard. Say the same for the Rogue, and 8 for the Cleric. That's 30 dead mooks.

That leaves the Fighter with 6 nonlethal damage, so 24 HP effectively. 6 for the Wizard, so 6 HP effectively. 6 for the Rogue, so 12 HP, and 6 for the Cleric, so 18.

There are 20 mooks left.

So, the PCs can probably win my version of it, using a lot of assumptions, including the mooks willingness to pile on forever, the PCs willingness to kill law-abiding officers, and averages of dice.

That, of course, has tactics never entering into it. Longswords change it a bit, and archers or any other sort of basic military thinking would probably win it.

And higher-level characters, or better equipment, would change it a ton. Anyway.

If my math is wrong, please tell me, but I'm sure someone will anyway even I didn't ask.It's wrong. The math is fine, it's what people can do that's the issue.
Fighter:A 2nd level Warrior has 15 HP with the Elite Array. A Fighter with 6th level has 20 Str, 7 feats(Wep focus line and others that don't matter, we'll assume), averages well over 15 damage a hit with a +1 Shocking Greatsword. NPCs of 2nd level are going to have something like 18 AC at best, probably less. The Fighter hits that on a 5, with nothing that boosts to-hit. His second swing hits on a 10. He kills 1.5 a round, not 1.Rogue:Why is he fighting straight up? Sniping(with hide checks of something like +16 opposed by the +0 spot of the warriors) should make all of them flatfooted and vulnerable to Sneak Attacks, which deal minimum 3d6+weapon at 5th level and should kill another 1 a round. Wizard:3rd level spells, 3 of them. More if he's a Sorc or a Focused Specialist. Deep Slumber can take out 5 of them, Fireball can cover 48 squares, which in a mob situation is 48 enemies, not to mention Major Image, Wind Wall, and Haste, which all tilt things significantly in the party's favor.Cleric:Stone Shape. How many enemies are damaging now?Low-levels aren't a threat. Don't figure on numbers to make it better. They don't, and all you do is turn the party into mass murderers while ruining immersion.

[AstralFire]

Hey, a mob situation is the perfect time for the Bag o' Rats Whirlwind Great Cleave Fighter. Throw in that Supreme Cleave that lets you take a 5-foot step for extra goodness.

[busterswd]

@ Person: This isn't for railroading purposes. I actually specifically take steps to AVOID railroading in my campaign ( I try to include at least three different approaches the PC's could take, so I can adapt much easier to whatever they do. I like to think of it as a subway.)

Thanks for the advice. For various reasons, long-term trouble with the City Guard isn't a problem, well, it is a problem for the PC's, a very big one, it's just not one for me.
I was talking more short-term stuff, the city is rather big (The setting is industrialized). Though the guard could, and would, get help, by the time they figure out how tough the PC's are, find a wizard at the university who prepped for combat today(Most wizards in the university don't wake up and say "my, I do believe I'm going to need to kill things today". Heck, only a few of them probably know combat spells.)/ Get part of the millitary mobilized, the PC's have had plenty of time to slaughter whatever 1st level warriors happened to be nearby. Ah well, this thread has given me a couple ideas, thanks.

The city puts out a wanted ad on your group. Thus starts the roving bands of good aligned adventurers answering call for help about a group of PC's terrorizing a city.

[Eldariel]

Low-levels aren't a threat. Don't figure on numbers to make it better. They don't, and all you do is turn the party into mass murderers while ruining immersion.

And this is without even factoring in things like reach weapons. A Fighter armed with a reach weapon still one-shots those guys majority of the time (2d4 damage from Guisarme or Spiked Chain averages at 5, you get 7 from Str and will Power Attack for 2 or so - alternatively, just have an enchanted weapon and you don't even need PA to one-shot those; Weapon Spec would do) and get at least one AoO (if he happens to have Combat Reflexes or Cleave, he'll be killing them in scores). And this is without any of the characters being really optimized to fight hordes. Also, the HPs don't factor in Con - just about every adventurer places secondary stat in Con meaning they'll have HP of around:
42 HP for a Fighter.
24 for a Wizard.
30 for a Rogue.
36 for a Cleric.

And better if they've got Con +2 items. Further, Cleric can provide healing and non-lethal damage heals ridiculously fast, so that's not much of a problem. Honestly, don't toss hordes of low-levels at a party - while 8 level 1s is technically CR 7, they're really a trivial horde - even if they do have ranged weapons, simple Wind Wall means the party is in no danger. If low-levels are to take the party down, it'll have to be through environment and strategy (á la Tucker's Kobolds) rather than brute force - Level 6 characters are already paragons and not bothered by few warriors.

[Person_Man]

@ Person: This isn't for railroading purposes. I actually specifically take steps to AVOID railroading in my campaign ( I try to include at least three different approaches the PC's could take, so I can adapt much easier to whatever they do. I like to think of it as a subway.)


For a 1st level campaign, I decided that I'd "protect" the PCs by having them start the campaign on a slave boat, being delivered to a prison. All of the players knew this before character creation. I explicitly told them that every potential problem in my campaigns had multiple solutions, and that violence was not always one of them. I wrote out a binder full of material for the prison. Gang factions. NPCs. Daily routines for everyone inside. Various events that would happen. And several ways that they could potentially escape after they had gained a few levels.

The game started with the four 1st level PCs with no weapons or equipment of any type on the slave boat. They were given a speech by the slave captain, and then led off in chains to the prison by 8 orc guards armed with saps, clubs, and studded leather armor. They were led off the boat and into their cell. Immediately upon being put into their cells and having their chains removed (but before the final guard left their cell to lock it). One of them decided to attack. I warned the PCs about how difficult it would be, and reminded them about the rules on unarmed attacks provoking AoO.

The PCs miraculously won (though two of them were unconscious and dying). The cleric healed everyone. They made their way to the prison entrance, took out the 2 guards on the other side of the closed door (thanks to a Bluff check getting them to open it from the outside) and fled.

Now, instead of throwing away weeks of work, I could have just had more guards show up. But the PCs decided that they had no interest in being in prison, even though I had specifically told them that it was going to be a prison centered campaign. So I tossed my binder and winged it for the rest of the game session. And the next week we started in on the man hunt.

Long story short, it was one of the best campaigns I ever DM'd. I had written great material. And eventually I used it for another group. But for that group at that time, I let them decide on the fate of their characters, and I just adjudicated how the world would react. In the long run, I feel that generally leads to a better game.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Fighter:A 2nd level Warrior has 15 HP with the Elite Array. A Fighter with 6th level has 20 Str, 7 feats(Wep focus line and others that don't matter, we'll assume), averages well over 15 damage a hit with a +1 Shocking Greatsword. NPCs of 2nd level are going to have something like 18 AC at best, probably less. The Fighter hits that on a 5, with nothing that boosts to-hit. His second swing hits on a 10. He kills 1.5 a round, not 1.

Rogue:Why is he fighting straight up? Sniping(with hide checks of something like +16 opposed by the +0 spot of the warriors) should make all of them flatfooted and vulnerable to Sneak Attacks, which deal minimum 3d6+weapon at 5th level and should kill another 1 a round.

Wizard:3rd level spells, 3 of them. More if he's a Sorc or a Focused Specialist. Deep Slumber can take out 5 of them, Fireball can cover 48 squares, which in a mob situation is 48 enemies, not to mention Major Image, Wind Wall, and Haste, which all tilt things significantly in the party's favor.

Cleric:Stone Shape. How many enemies are damaging now?

Low-levels aren't a threat. Don't figure on numbers to make it better. They don't, and all you do is turn the party into mass murderers while ruining immersion.

I wasn't saying at all that he should throw 100 mooks at them and let Pelor sort it out. Just trying to demonstrate that levels mean nothing compared to numbers. Unless you're a full-spellcaster above tenth level.

Ah, I found that comic I was thinking of. O-Chul says it best. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html)

Anyway.

They're sixth level? I was assuming fifth.

Fighter: The Fighter I was assuming was Greatsword wielding. With fifth level, no extra attacks.

Rogue: I was assuming stupid straight-up fight that would probably never happen. but you're right, yes.

Wizard: I assumed a generalist Wizard, fifth level, so one 3rd level spell. Two 2nd, and three first. And four 0th level spells.

Cleric: As long as it takes to run around a stone wall.

[Eldariel]

Wizard: I assumed a generalist Wizard, fifth level, so one 3rd level spell. Two 2nd, and three first. And four 0th level spells.

Don't forget Int-bonuses. It's 2-3 for non-Elf Generalist, 3-4 for Elf-Generalist or normal Specialist, 4-5 for Focused Specialist (if you can somehow manage 24 Int, you can get to 5 - it's doable, with e.g. Middle-Aged Grey Elf (or any +2 Int race) with Headband of Int +2). So at the very least 2 and possibly up to 5. And that's not counting scrolls, Wands and other similar tools (which a Wizard should have attained at first opportunity).

Also, what if the Fighter has a reach weapon? Most carry one around. That means at least 1.5 kills per turn without Cleave (~2.5 with Cleave) and Combat Reflexes. Frankly, O-Chul is right, but you need a hundred opponents and open enough arena where the 1-levels can use ranged weapons (and no Wind Wall from the PCs' side - and that's without talking about anything that gives DR which makes PCs completely immune to everything the warriors would do), otherwise they're trivial.

[horseboy]

I explicitly told them that every potential problem in my campaigns had multiple solutions, and that violence was not always one of them. That's the first rule of RPG's:
1) If it can be killed, the PC's will kill it.
2) If it can't be killed, the PC's will still try.
:smallamused:

[AstralFire]

That's the first rule of RPG's:
1) If it can be killed, the PC's will kill it.
2) If it can't be killed, the PC's will still try.
:smallamused:

I sometimes actually have the opposite problem with PCs:

1) If it has shown signs of reasonableness, the PCs will try diplomacy.
2) If it hasn't shown signs of reasonableness, the PCs will still try.

I've had a party nearly TPK while they were trying to talk someone down before.

[Reinboom]

That's the first rule of RPG's:
1) If it can be killed, the PC's will kill it.
2) If it can't be killed, the PC's will still try.
:smallamused:

I also have a differerent set of rules that my players try to follow (to my woe):
If it can be subdued, it will be questioned for hours.
If it can't be subdued, the battle will last for hours - and then still questioned. (Usually through various divinations, or speak with dead).

[AstralFire]

I also have a differerent set of rules that my players try to follow (to my woe):
If it can be subdued, it will be questioned for hours.
If it can't be subdued, the battle will last for hours - and then still questioned. (Usually through various divinations, or speak with dead).

See, that is my personal rule. I'd say about half of my characters have carried merciful weapons.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Don't forget Int-bonuses. It's 2-3 for non-Elf Generalist, 3-4 for Elf-Generalist or normal Specialist, 4-5 for Focused Specialist (if you can somehow manage 24 Int, you can get to 5 - it's doable, with e.g. Middle-Aged Grey Elf (or any +2 Int race) with Headband of Int +2). So at the very least 2 and possibly up to 5. And that's not counting scrolls, Wands and other similar tools (which a Wizard should have attained at first opportunity).

Also, what if the Fighter has a reach weapon? Most carry one around. That means at least 1.5 kills per turn without Cleave (~2.5 with Cleave) and Combat Reflexes. Frankly, O-Chul is right, but you need a hundred opponents and open enough arena where the 1-levels can use ranged weapons (and no Wind Wall from the PCs' side - and that's without talking about anything that gives DR which makes PCs completely immune to everything the warriors would do), otherwise they're trivial.

1st point: Doh. Completely forgot Int bonuses to spells. You would be right.

2nd point: I suppose you would be right. Though at least some Warrior would move inside the reach, and eventually on all sides. Not that it would help.

I concede the point that the PCs would probably win my scenario.

I am not, however, willing to concede the point that low-level characters are no threat against high-level characters.

40 archers, on top of several different terrain features, like, say, a couple of buildings. PCs are 50 feet away. Triple lines of guardsmen on every exit.

Check and mate.

[Eldariel]

Eh, of course low-levels can be a challenge for mid-level party not built to mop up low-levels, especially if circumstances favour the low-levels. That's not what's being argued. It's just that on even ground (circumstances change everything), you need very large numbers of low-levels to truly make a dent in mid-level adventurers even without extreme optimization. The best example of just what low-level opponents can do with sufficient circumstance advantage and intelligence is still Tucker's Kobolds (http://tuckerskobolds.com/).

[Epinephrine]

Thieves' guilds aren't stupid, and they can buy a few one shot items/hire a mage, etc.

Steal their gear, drug their wine, surprise attack , grapple the non-fighter, etc. You don't have to be very high level to gang grapple a rogue, a mage, and a cleric. The fighter's the only full BAB guy with a likely high strength.

Tanglefoot bags on the fighter? A few saves to make and suddenly he's not able to help his allies.

Ranged attackers? Rooftop attackers getting a surprise round, winning initiative, and getting another volley off?

Do you mind using feats to specialise your anti-PC hit squad? Make a team that works really well together - the guild heavy hitters. They don't have to be high level to be effective. Plus, have them go in buffed - no reason they can't have a 5th level cleric around somewhere who they pay for some blessings. Mass Aid for some bonuus HP?

Pack Feint? One guy's feint denies dex bonus for every other attacker adjacent to the victim.

Pack Tactics? +1 typeless bonus to other allies adjacent to your flanked foe.

Honestly, it's not hard to make low level guys effective - combine the ideas that have already been advanced by others.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

40 archers, on top of several different terrain features, like, say, a couple of buildings. PCs are 50 feet away. Triple lines of guardsmen on every exit. Wind Wall. x2 if you need to cover 2 different lines, but you can generally shape it to make both unable to hit you. Then, toss AoE spells and use a Reach weapon to eat away at the guardsmen. break through one side. If the other line comes to help, then the party can escape because they left the exit uncovered. and you're still talking about a minimum of 52 enemies, probably more. Without going Tucker, it takes way to many enemies to be effective against PCs.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Remember the OotS thing?

Twenty level twos, saps.

That's...

You not only calculated the hit points completely wrong (a 5th-level fighter has 32 + 5xCon modifier hp, for instance, not 30), but you seem to not have grasped elementary PC tactics. All the fighter needs to kill the whole bunch is a doorway or other narrow place. All the wizard needs to kill the whole bunch is a fireball, and if he actually uses good spells...


Numbers really mean absolutely jack. Wizards, especially, can destroy literally thousands of enemies. Gawd help if the wizard should happen to have a wand of fireball.


(That said, you may or may not have noticed that my first post recommended mooks at 4 levels below PC level. That's still a relatively good gap, but when the mooks are at such a low level, they're easily mopped up by any area effect spell.)

[Stupendous_Man]

Numbers really mean absolutely jack. Wizards, especially, can destroy literally thousands of enemies.

In fact, OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!

[Yahzi]

When your PCs are super-hero dragon slaying figures of legend, the town guard shouldn't be a threat.

One thing I don't get in most people's worlds: the local baron or king or whatever is often a mid-level aristocrat or something lame. WTH is that about? It's a feudal society. The guy at the top is at the top because he's the baddest baddie around.

In my world the King is a 13th level fighter. His counts, barons, and earls are all at least 6th, and as high as 9th. The heads of the churches are at least 9th level: some are higher. Every person in my world who holds a position of social power wields immense personal power to go with it.

If my players started acting like that, they know the local Baron would just call the King (or one of the churches) for help.

And when they get to 10th level or so, and can pwn the King, then guess what: the game isn't about the local kingdom any more. It's about mind flayers and djinns and barbarian hordes and other kingdoms. At that point, if they want to kill the King, they can - but then they become the King. Well, heck, at 10th level, they've earned it!

[Stupendous_Man]

One thing I don't get in most people's worlds: the local baron or king or whatever is often a mid-level aristocrat or something lame. WTH is that about? It's a feudal society. The guy at the top is at the top because he's the baddest baddie around.

Either that or because he's related to people who can kill an elephant with a tea spoon.

Or perhaps his father was good at conquering, and the son is just good at administering hte territory.

[AstralFire]

One thing I don't get in most people's worlds: the local baron or king or whatever is often a mid-level aristocrat or something lame. WTH is that about? It's a feudal society. The guy at the top is at the top because he's the baddest baddie around.

Or perhaps he's the baddest baddie at playing all ends against the middle.

[BobVosh]

I am not, however, willing to concede the point that low-level characters are no threat against high-level characters.

40 archers, on top of several different terrain features, like, say, a couple of buildings. PCs are 50 feet away. Triple lines of guardsmen on every exit.

Check and mate.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html

Protection from arrows, fly, wind wall

Rogue snipes

Fighter uses tower shield for full cover

Cleric cries himself to sleep. I mean heals himself occasionally until he gets full cover from something. Or god forbid, someone stands in front of him and the mooks don't have percise, coordinated, and all the other shot feats to hit a cleric with ANOTHER +8 ac.

[potatocubed]

There's an interesting point that was made in the front of one of my favourite 3.0 adventure modules, The Speaker in Dreams. The PCs are in a city and the module points out that, yes, the PCs could overwhelm the town guard if they really wanted to. The thing is, if the town guard could take on the PCs and win, they could probably take on whatever threat the PCs are supposed to face and beat that, too. It raises the question 'if the guards are so badass, why are we endangering our lives fighting things that they could slay in moments?'

Of course, if your PCs are making a mockery of the town guards there are a few options available to you. Here are three off the top of my head:

1. Watch Golems. Because once you've made one, all it takes is a low-level spellcaster with a repair light damage wand to keep it in good nick. It's also impervious to a lot of magic and dangerous in a fight. The moment things seem too dangerous for the normal guards, in goes the watch golem. You can also add fun custom devices to it if you're feeling inventive - an iron golem could open its midriff and stuff grappled prisoners in, for example.

2. Alliances. If the PCs are threatening the established top guys, the established top guys will bring in some outside muscle. Not just 'adventurers on retainer', but in desperate times they'll do a deal with a mindflayer psion and his minions, or even some devils. Let the PCs see just how far they have pushed their rulers when the king sells his soul in a bid to make them stop doing whatever they're doing.

3. (Free bonus idea!) Forget about balanced encounters. If you want to put fear into your PCs, send that iron watch golem after them when they're 5th level and watch them run.