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Jack Zander
2008-09-30, 12:06 PM
What the hell? These are the cheapest of items ever, and they require you to be a 12th level caster and have a 5th level spell? What's the point? How do any of these items ever get crafted? Anyone who can make them has no reason to.

Malicte
2008-09-30, 12:07 PM
I've seen some creative uses of the 'Tree' token that make it MORE than worthwhile to craft.

Edit: Like sleight of handing one inside someone's tunic and activating it. Or using it inside buildings to blow out floors.

Jack Zander
2008-09-30, 12:20 PM
Yeah, well maybe I wanna cheat with it at level 4!

I actually want the whip token, but by the time you can craft it, it's not as strong as the fighter anymore and only gets worse from there.

Jack Zander
2008-09-30, 12:25 PM
While I'm at it, Pearls of Power require you to be 17th level! Wouldn't it make more sense for you to have to be at least twice the level of the spell instead? Is allowing a 7th level wizard one more 1st level spell per day really overpowered?

sonofzeal
2008-09-30, 12:37 PM
Caster level requirements for items/feats are insane. Minor Schemas, for example, require CL11 (I think) to even take the feat and put a 1st level spell into an item!

Darrin
2008-09-30, 12:46 PM
While I'm at it, Pearls of Power require you to be 17th level! Wouldn't it make more sense for you to have to be at least twice the level of the spell instead? Is allowing a 7th level wizard one more 1st level spell per day really overpowered?

Caster Levels don't work that way. It is *not* a requirement, it's a general guideline to help the DM adjudicate saving throws and calculate DCs for dispel magic.

Why a spellcaster would wait until 17th level to create a pearl of power is beyond me, though. For most wizards, picking up Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd is the point where they can start making some decent money selling pearls (only takes a day for 1st level spells).

sonofzeal
2008-09-30, 01:38 PM
Caster Levels don't work that way. It is *not* a requirement, it's a general guideline to help the DM adjudicate saving throws and calculate DCs for dispel magic.

Why a spellcaster would wait until 17th level to create a pearl of power is beyond me, though. For most wizards, picking up Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd is the point where they can start making some decent money selling pearls (only takes a day for 1st level spells).
It does work that way for Schemas though, as it's written into the feat. Especially crazy as they're cheaper and marginally less useful than Wands.

Jack Zander
2008-09-30, 02:16 PM
So I can ignore the caster level thingy? Does that mean that the item uses my caster level instead?

I'm gonna need some clarification.

Vaynor
2008-09-30, 02:24 PM
So I can ignore the caster level thingy? Does that mean that the item uses my caster level instead?

I'm gonna need some clarification.

Yes, that's true.

Jack Zander
2008-09-30, 02:55 PM
Freakin' sweet!

sonofzeal
2008-09-30, 04:00 PM
Yes, that's true.
Can you quote rules on that? My group always assumed that you have to meet the CL to make the item.

Draz74
2008-09-30, 04:14 PM
Can you quote rules on that? My group always assumed that you have to meet the CL to make the item.

Yeah. I've long known that Item CL isn't supposed to be a crafting prereq, but my DM doesn't believe me. (Although he's willing to bend this "rule" a bit.)

Oh, and if you want a really ridiculous example, check out Universal Solvent. 50 gp, CL 20.

I've heard crazy CLs like this are leftover from 3.0e, where Caster Level for items apparently meant something different.

Gaiwecoor
2008-09-30, 04:19 PM
Can you quote rules on that? My group always assumed that you have to meet the CL to make the item.

I always thought you have to meet it, as well, so I looked into it.

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) specifically states that you have to meet a particular caster level for weapons, armor, potions ... pretty much everything except wondrous items and rings. I suppose people are inferring from the absence of that text that you don't need the caster level? :smallconfused:

sonofzeal
2008-09-30, 05:29 PM
The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) specifically states that you have to meet a particular caster level for weapons, armor, potions ... pretty much everything except wondrous items and rings. I suppose people are inferring from the absence of that text that you don't need the caster level? :smallconfused:
That's... not very authoritative. Is there anything else on this issue, a FAQ or Sage answer perhaps?

Gaiwecoor
2008-09-30, 06:14 PM
That's... not very authoritative. Is there anything else on this issue, a FAQ or Sage answer perhaps?

Agreed, it's not. Honestly, it makes sense (to me, at least), to require the caster level. How do you make a CL 15 item when you only have 7 levels in a casting class? Of course, many items have a ridiculously high CL, too ... maybe this is just a fix to overcome that. Or maybe somebody knows an authoritative answer?

Cuddly
2008-09-30, 06:16 PM
I've heard it said the creator sets the caster level, so a caster with 7 levels can only make an item with 7 CL, even though the DMG has it for 15. Of course, this brings up an issue of pricing.

Prometheus
2008-09-30, 07:26 PM
Cuddly has it right, the caster level of certain items is very important, while in certain others it functions exactly the same (depending on the spell it is based off of). Since the magic crafting rules let you make anything, you could craft a version of any item with a lower caster level (that is, you current caster level), but you would have to look at the chart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues) to figure out the pricing (anything that falls under the category of "spell effect" would have it's price modified by the ratio between the original caster level and your caster level).

On a side note, I don't know whether or not you can craft an item as if your caster level was lower than it is.

Gaiwecoor
2008-09-30, 07:37 PM
On a side note, I don't know whether or not you can craft an item as if your caster level was lower than it is.

Woo! One I can actually solve authoritatively!



Creating Magic Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)
A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.


Yes, you can voluntarily lower your caster level for the purpose of crafting items.

ericgrau
2008-09-30, 07:54 PM
I also noticed that the feat, spell and other random requirements for creating a wondorous item are given in a comma seperated list. The caster level is seperated from that list with a semicolon, as is other information like the price of the item, and the school of magic that shows up on a detect magic.

So now I'm pretty well convinced that caster level is not a requirement... and I'm basing my entire argument on a single dot. :smallamused:

Price is often based on caster level, so on some items you'd have to adjust the cost accordingly. And see what Gaiwecoor said.

Eldariel
2008-09-30, 08:05 PM
Eh, well, to be able to craft a Wand of CL X, you gotta be CL X yourself. That's pretty obvious, right? It isn't much of an extension to apply the same to wondrous items - if the item is CL X, you need to be CL X to build it at that CL. If you're under that, you can't build it at that CL and since that's the listed CL, chances are you can't build it at all... That said, the numbers are just dumb - with the items requiring CLs that high, they could never be that cheap as there're only a couple of characters in the entire material plane capable of building them. If anything, they should be priceless.

Gaiwecoor
2008-09-30, 08:41 PM
That's pretty obvious, right?

Yes, yes it is. I had assumed, however, that the listed caster level was the minimum for that type of item (since that's the formula they follow for wands, potions and scrolls). If it's just a sample CL, well, everything that's been said here makes sense.

Eldariel
2008-09-30, 08:43 PM
Yup. However, that would also mean that the item doesn't actually need to cost as much as it does (the cost is a function of the CL), it makes little sense to assume that it's anything but the minimum CL.

Jack Zander
2008-09-30, 08:53 PM
I don't think wondrous item costs are affected by caster level though since most of them aren't spell effects. Caster level is important for actual spells, but many wondrous items have the duration and strength of the effect spelled out regardless of caster level.

Zeful
2008-09-30, 09:01 PM
Yes, yes it is. I had assumed, however, that the listed caster level was the minimum for that type of item (since that's the formula they follow for wands, potions and scrolls). If it's just a sample CL, well, everything that's been said here makes sense.

Actually it's the "Assumed Baseline". Every magic item the PCs find are assumed to be made at that caster level for the purpose of determining: Damage, Range, Duration, Saving Throw DCs, Number of targets, and Dispelling DCs. I remember reading (something similar to) that in the first page of the magic items chapter, I'll admit my possible wrongness in this, but I'm sure it's in that chapter somewhere.

Gaiwecoor
2008-09-30, 10:25 PM
I don't think wondrous item costs are affected by caster level though since most of them aren't spell effects. Caster level is important for actual spells, but many wondrous items have the duration and strength of the effect spelled out regardless of caster level.

Well, caster level should be involved somehow in pricing; if nothing else, a higher caster level makes it harder to dispel.

Darrin
2008-09-30, 10:45 PM
That's... not very authoritative. Is there anything else on this issue, a FAQ or Sage answer perhaps?

How about:



Magic Item Caster Level vs. Level Prerequisites: Sean Reynolds offers a correction to these sentences that appers on Dungeon Master's Guide p. 178 under the heading Caster Level:

"For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level)." The caster level is NOT a prereq and was never intended as one. We can sort of salvage that quoted text by changing the last sentence to: "In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's MINIMUM caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level)." So the minimum caster level of an item that makes a fireball would be 5, since that's the minimum caster level for a fireball.


Also, Skip Williams' "Rules of the Game: Making Magic Items" describes the process of creating magic items a bit more in detail:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041207a

Jack Zander
2008-09-30, 11:36 PM
One last bit of confusion then. If I create a feather token at level 3, is it's caster level 3rd or 12th and does that affect the price at all?

Gaiwecoor
2008-09-30, 11:49 PM
One last bit of confusion then. If I create a feather token at level 3, is it's caster level 3rd or 12th and does that affect the price at all?

If you create a feather token at level 3, its caster level is 3rd. The price question is somewhat less clear.

First, let's talk about the general rule. According to the article Darrin linked to above:


In general, the higher an item's caster level, the more it costs to buy or make.

Of course, that's just a general rule, as is the rule that the price is proportional to the CL of the item. (Meaning, generally, you would create the item at a discounted rate of 3/12 = 25% the normal price.)

However, I doubt the general rule holds true for feather tokens. This proportionality would give a very low price for these magic items. I would suspect that the price change is nominal, if present.

Jack Zander
2008-10-01, 12:24 AM
I would think that in general is referring to all items except wondrous items. I really don't think you can get cheaper versions of them by making them a lower caster level.

Seriously, I'd make everything at the lowest possible caster level for the discount. How often do foes cast dispel magic on your equipment anyway?

Malicte
2008-10-01, 12:39 AM
I would think that in general is referring to all items except wondrous items. I really don't think you can get cheaper versions of them by making them a lower caster level.

Seriously, I'd make everything at the lowest possible caster level for the discount. How often do foes cast dispel magic on your equipment anyway?

That, my friend, depends on your DM.

Seriously though, that stuff is like the nuclear weapon of D&D. Not as bad as disjunction, but still.

Zeful
2008-10-01, 01:27 AM
I would think that in general is referring to all items except wondrous items. I really don't think you can get cheaper versions of them by making them a lower caster level.

Seriously, I'd make everything at the lowest possible caster level for the discount. How often do foes cast dispel magic on your equipment anyway?

In my games, quite often. But then my bad guys use whatever means available to win.

Also things like Hat of disquise and Amulet of Detect thoughts get run through the wringer if you drop them to absolute minimum, making them pretty useless.

sonofzeal
2008-10-01, 02:03 AM
Oh hey, so I may as well ask...

My DM has approved (encouraged, even) my Artificer to make a pair of very interesting boots. Specifically, they're at-will items of Dimension Hop combined with Boots of Levitation. The result is possibly the oddest method of flight I've ever seen in D&D - the levitation keeps you from falling, and the Dimension Hop provides the motive power in the form of discrete jumps rather than continuous movement. Zeno would be happy.

Anyway, I've been trying to figure out the most cost-effective way of making these buggers. As near as I can tell, it's a lvl2 spell with a CL of 3, so 2*3*1800 for the Dimension Hop, plus 7500*1.5 for the Levitation, for a total of 22,050 gp, or considerably more than Winged Boots. Is there any way to improve this?

Gaiwecoor
2008-10-01, 04:28 AM
sonofzeal -

You have the math right, but let's see if we can come up with some DM-convincing arguments.

Before we start, to be honest, I don't know about this "Dimension Hop" of which you speak. I'll assume you're right and it's a 2d level spell.

Notice that levitate is likewise a second level spell. Since both are second level spells with CL 3, Boots of Levitation should have exactly the same price as Boots of Dimension Hopping. However, the boots have a price of 7500, whereas the "guideline" price is 10800.

Now, the text accompanying those guidelines says:



Magic Item Gold Piece Values (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#magicItemGoldPieceValues)

The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced [and use] that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values.

So that table is secondary to finding something of an equivalent nature. See if your DM will allow you to use the Boots of Levitation pricing for the Boots of Dimension Hopping. If so, the total price comes out to be 7500 + 1.5*7500 = 18750. That's 3300 less than the original estimate; not the best, but it hurts a bit less.

sonofzeal
2008-10-01, 11:42 AM
If I then reduce the CL on Boots of Levitate (which I can do because Artificers are cool like that), I can get the price down to.... 7500 (D.Hop) + 7500*(2/3)*1.5 = 7500*2 = 15000. Much better. :smallbiggrin: