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View Full Version : [3.5/Pathfinder] Good ways to sneak attack at low-mid levels?



Gaiwecoor
2008-09-30, 02:35 PM
I'm currently playing a swashbuckler 2 / rogue 2 in a pathfinder campaign, and will be taking Daring Outlaw next level to get back all the sneak attack goodness. My question is ... what are good ways to be able to use those sneak attack dice?

Methods that I know of include:

Flanking (Which you can't always rely on)
Feinting (Very feat-heavy if you're going the Improved Feint route)
Invisible Attacker (Very expensive for low-mid level characters)


Are there any other ways to get that sneak attack in that I don't remember off the top of my head? If not, what method do you suggest for putting yourself in a situation that qualifies for it?

Yes, I do have telling blow, and my rapier will become keen as soon as I can afford it

Thank you much!

Fax Celestis
2008-09-30, 02:42 PM
Blinding, stunning, entangling, and attacking before your foe has a chance to act are good methods. There's a feat in PHB-II (Adaptable Flanker) which lets you act as if you're flanking from two spots. Couple with Spiked Chain and you can flank with yourself.

Hal
2008-09-30, 02:44 PM
Well, there's Adaptable Flanker from PHB2, which lets you count as flanking from any square you threaten, but only for a designated foe. [Ninja'd! Curse you, Fax!]

There's skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel which work with Quick Draw. Hidden Blade lets you draw a hidden weapon using sleight of hand; a successful check lets you treat a foe as flat-footed, but that can only be used once per foe per encounter. Sudden Draw lets you draw a hidden weapon (sleight of hand check, again) and attack as part of an AoO; success lets you treat the foe as flat-footed.

So, if you've got the skill points for Sleight of Hand, the desire to carry a bunch of daggers, and room in your feat list for Quick Draw, those are some options.

Edit: Oh, and how's your Charisma? Fax suggested stunning your opponent, and that brought to mind the Sudden Stunning (DMG2) weapon enhancement. If you have decently high charisma, it's worth a thought.

Gaiwecoor
2008-09-30, 04:26 PM
Edit: Oh, and how's your Charisma? Fax suggested stunning your opponent, and that brought to mind the Sudden Stunning (DMG2) weapon enhancement. If you have decently high charisma, it's worth a thought.

Charisma's not too bad (14); It's a tertiary stat, though. I used Dex and Int as my primary stats.

That's a nice find, I hadn't noticed it when I looked through that book before. I particularly like that it's a fixed price enhancement, rather than an enhancement bonus.

Fax - I'll look into the PHBII feats after work, thanks. Welcome back!

Thurbane
2008-09-30, 09:37 PM
There's another feat in PHB II called Telling Blow, allows you to get sneak attack damage on a critical. Handy if you use a weapon with a decent crit range, like a rapier.

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-30, 09:44 PM
Grease them up, baby.

Gaiwecoor
2008-09-30, 10:30 PM
Grease them up, baby.

Ah, if only I had ranks in UMD :smallwink:
Of course, the party's conjurer ...

[Edit]

Just got a chance to look at Adaptable Flanker... very nice. If only it weren't three feats away! (11th level, unless I take some fighter levels)

Darrin
2008-10-01, 09:30 AM
Ah, if only I had ranks in UMD :smallwink:
Of course, the party's conjurer ...


The cheapest way to deny a target his dex bonus is to grapple him. So buy a bunch of dogs, and train them to grapple. However, when you attack anyone involved in a grapple, you determine randomly who gets hit. So don't get too attached to the dogs.

Find a spellcaster to make you a "stone of grease" or some other wondrous item. A command-word activated 1st level spell should only cost 1800 GP, although you may need to increase the caster level so it lasts longer than 1 round. Increase the caster level to 2, make it a 50-charge item, and it still costs 1800 GP. That should last you until a more reliable method comes along. Make sure you have at least 5 ranks in Balance, so you can move through the area without becoming flat-footed yourself.

If the party wizard doesn't have or won't cast grease, then talk the cleric into preparing ice slick (Frostburn, p. 100).



Just got a chance to look at Adaptable Flanker... very nice. If only it weren't three feats away! (11th level, unless I take some fighter levels)

For only two feats, you can pick up Martial Study and Martial Stance to get Island of Blades. While in the Island of Blades stance, any two attackers that are adjacent to a target are considered flanking. Dipping into SwordSage for one level would also work, as well as give you several more useful maneuvers. If you can wait, pick up Martial Study at ECL 6, so you can get Cloak of Deception. This renders you invisible for 1 round, once per encounter. Then you can pick up Martial Stance at ECL 9. After that, consider Shadow Blade to add your dex bonus as damage while in a Shadow Hand stance and using a Shadow Hand weapon.

Adaptive Flanker + Island of Blades means you can flank a target all by yourself.

Person_Man
2008-10-01, 10:59 AM
However, when you attack anyone involved in a grapple, you determine randomly who gets hit. So don't get too attached to the dogs.

That was only true in 3.0. In the 3.5 grapple rules, there is no mention of that. So its an even better idea then you suggest.


Other ways to qualify for Sneak Attack:

Ways to qualify for Sneak Attack include:

1) Win Initiative: A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act.

2) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures.

3) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap. (Thanks Darrin).

4) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

5) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker (PHBII), reach weapon, armor spikes or spiked gauntlets. (Thanks Fax).

6) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

7) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

8) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat to ignore your 20% miss chance.

9) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

10) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

11) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

12) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

13) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

14) Hide in Plain Site: A dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

15) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members.

16) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable.

17) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat, it works for a full attack.

18) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It also doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit. WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO. (Thanks Thurbane).

And here's a list of Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915).

CharlieRock
2008-10-01, 11:30 AM
there is a feat that lets someone intimidate enemies within 30'. That flatfoots them. combo that with the feat that lets you add str bonus to stack with your cha bonus and your going to be able to initimidate quite a few enemies.

Darrin
2008-10-01, 11:36 AM
That was only true in 3.0. In the 3.5 grapple rules, there is no mention of that. So its an even better idea then you suggest.


Hmmm... I thought I saw it on the Armor Class Modifiers table... yes, it's still there, but only under "Ranged". Huh. Well, ok then... buy some dogs and stick to melee.

Something I wasn't clear on, though... if you're using Scorpion's Grasp or Improved Grab, if you elect not to go into a grapple, does your target lose his dex bonus to you, even though you're the one that started the grapple?

Person_Man
2008-10-01, 12:17 PM
Hmmm... I thought I saw it on the Armor Class Modifiers table... yes, it's still there, but only under "Ranged". Huh. Well, ok then... buy some dogs and stick to melee.

Something I wasn't clear on, though... if you're using Scorpion's Grasp or Improved Grab, if you elect not to go into a grapple, does your target lose his dex bonus to you, even though you're the one that started the grapple?

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that you have to succeed at a Grapple check before you count as being Grappled, and thus denied your Dex bonus to everyone except the enemy you're Grappling.

But I'll be the first to admit that I've gone through so many editions of D&D that I can't always keep the rules strait. Anyone see Lord Silvanos lately? He'd know.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-01, 12:22 PM
Grapple: The Bane of All Existence.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-10-01, 02:13 PM
Something I wasn't clear on, though... if you're using Scorpion's Grasp or Improved Grab, if you elect not to go into a grapple, does your target lose his dex bonus to you, even though you're the one that started the grapple?

Yes, since you are not considered grappling yourself while the target is. (Although reading the RAW verbatim leaves one wondering if the intend was to prevent you from doing just that, but it is not like it is clarified in the RC or the FAQ)

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-10-01, 02:15 PM
Anyone see Lord Silvanos lately?

So many popcorn and so little time...


Grapple: The Bane of All Existence.

Nahh just anything fun, quick and easy.

Gaiwecoor
2008-10-01, 07:04 PM
The cheapest way to deny a target his dex bonus is to grapple him. So buy a bunch of dogs, and train them to grapple. ... So don't get too attached to the dogs.


Awesome ... just awesome. I think this is how I'll be going - it fits the flavor of the character to have a bunch of dogs around, anyway :smallwink:

(I'll probably go with the Grease Stone at later levels, too)

Thank you!

ericgrau
2008-10-01, 07:14 PM
1. See handle animal skill for details on what you can command the dogs to do. One of them is attack X target, but there is no "grapple X target". Though that would be a reasonable custom trick, as long as he doesn't exceed his maximum trick limit. Some other animals can grapple as part of an attack (and it'd be reasonable to assume they always do). You may want to try those instead.
2. Ranged attacks hit a random grappler unless you have improved precise shot. Melee attacks, OTOH, are pure gold. And if the grappled creature is pinned, he's at a -9 (plus dex bonus) penalty to AC. Seriously, check the combat modifiers section, and don't forget to read the footnote.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-01, 07:19 PM
1. See handle animal skill for details on what you can command the dogs to do. One of them is attack X target, but there is no "grapple X target". Though that would be a reasonable custom trick, as long as he doesn't exceed his maximum trick limit. Some other animals can grapple as part of an attack (and it'd be reasonable to assume they always do). You may want to try those instead.

A grapple attempt is a standard attack action.

ericgrau
2008-10-01, 07:47 PM
That's nice. They can do it (or so I assume... once I think about what's physically involved I dunno...). But the point is you can't command them to do it. At least not without a custom DM-approved trick, a week of training and a move action from your character every time you want the dog to start doing it. All the standard commands (like "attack") are also move actions, btw. Unless the animal is your animal companion.

Stormageddon
2008-10-02, 01:25 AM
See if your DM will let you use 3.0 feats. One called "Hand is Quicker than the Eye." Tome of song and silence (name?) Lets you do a bluff check vs their sense motive as a move action if you succeed your target is caught flat footed. Requires 19 dex.

BobVosh
2008-10-02, 02:01 AM
See if your DM will let you use 3.0 feats. One called "Hand is Quicker than the Eye." Tome of song and silence (name?) Lets you do a bluff check vs their sense motive as a move action if you succeed your target is caught flat footed. Requires 19 dex.

Isn't that basically improved feint? Cept dex instead of bluff

Darrin
2008-10-02, 08:55 AM
Awesome ... just awesome. I think this is how I'll be going - it fits the flavor of the character to have a bunch of dogs around, anyway :smallwink:


Actually, looking at the animals you can buy... guard dogs are small-sized an only cost 25 GP, but they have a -3 grapple check. Riding dogs are medium-sized and more durable, but cost 150 GP.

Buy a mule. Several of them, if possible. Only 8 GP, and it's a large creature with three hit dice and a +9 (!) grapple check.

You can use Handle Animal to teach them to attack as a trick, or can pay a professional animal trainer to do it. You'll want to spend an additional trick to train them to attack non-humanoid creatures, otherwise you have to "push" the animal to attack as a full-round action. In the PHB, a skilled hireling costs 3 sp per day. The Arms & Equipment guide has much more detailed rules for animal trainers, and according to that book a skilled trainer would cost 8 sp per day.

Of particular note in the Arms & Equipment guide are new tricks you can train your animal, including "special ability" (such as Pounce or other special attacks), "disarm", and "trip". Disarm and trip are special types of standard attacks, as is grapple. Thus, we can conclude that training an animal specifically to grapple until ordered to do otherwise would be the equivalent of one additional trick.