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hamishspence
2008-09-30, 03:04 PM
This is based on the fact that, despite the term "always Evil" being used, exceptions exist.

Now, what would you require, for a vampire to qualify for this execption, and be deemed Neutral, or maybe even Good?

Option 1: Only consensual feeding, never lethal, from intelligent beings.

Option 2: Only feeding from very low intelligence creatures (animals)

Option 3: Only feeding from creatures with intelligence 0, that arguably cannot feel pain the way more intelligent ones can: (vermin, plant creatures. Oozes?)

Since by rules, vampire can drain constitution, or use Energy drain, on vermin or plant creatures (assassin vine, shambling mound, etc, which still count as Living Creatures, it can effectively satisfy its dietary requirements (must drain to stay sane, by Libris Mortis rules).

So, even if you insisted on option 3 for Non-evil vampires, it would still be possible by rules.


Varney the Vegetarian Vampire?

Mushroom Ninja
2008-09-30, 03:07 PM
Yeah, I could see vampires being run as non-evil.

Mastikator
2008-09-30, 03:24 PM
The way I see it, a vampire is because the magic that gives them supernatural powers and stuff is the same magic that twists their minds. So I would say no to exceptions.

I haven't read Libris Mortis, or any of that, so I can't comment on RAW.

SurlySeraph
2008-09-30, 03:31 PM
I'd allow it. As long as they aren't sparkly.

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 03:33 PM
I'd allow it.

Wouldn't the Ring of Sustenance trick work too? I've heard that one bandied about for Mind Flayers.

streakster
2008-09-30, 03:33 PM
I'd allow it. As long as they aren't sparkly.

Hear, hear! Death to the sparkly dead!

potatocubed
2008-09-30, 03:40 PM
I'd allow it.

I'm pretty certain RAW it would be forbidden though, as vampires are animated by negative energy/necromancy and negative energy/necromancy (and everything it touches) is eeeevil. Or at least, it is in 3.5. :smallannoyed:

Hands up who remembers when cure spells were necromantic magic?

Hawriel
2008-09-30, 03:40 PM
Well the only thing more cliche than a drizzt clone in the gaming world is the Ann Rice wanabe 'I so tormented because I am an imortal over emotional cursed to be undead, but do good to keep my humanity' vampior character.

But yes there is nothing wrong with kicking alignment rules out for monster templats. Just like goblins being automaticly evil because of race, vampires shouldnt be because of curse. It should depend on what type of person they were befor the curse, and how they delt with it afterwords.


EDIT to the potato

I remember when all healing spells where not only necromancy but reversable to harm spells.

BRC
2008-09-30, 03:43 PM
I would say definitely, my beef with Racial Alignments aside, I could easily see a vampire as being non-evil. Or even if they are, not evil in a kill people and drink their blood kind of way. A vampire who views their condition as an inconvenience that makes them drink blood from live chickens, stay away from temples and not go out in the sun, but otherwise they live life as best they can. I could imagine a vampire who lives in a rural community working as an accountant for the farmers, checking their ledgers, doing their taxes, offering financial advice, ect.

YPU
2008-09-30, 03:46 PM
That sounds like Discword to me BRC, tough I might be wrong there.
Indeed there are enough movie and literature examples of vampires who seek redemption to good. So, assuming its played well, it might work out nicely.

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 03:47 PM
I have to say, I've never actually played with a drizzt clone or someone who wanted to have one, and I've only heard rare first-hand accounts of this phenomenon.

Vampire's more common, but that's because of WoD.


Well the only thing more cliche than a drizzt clone in the gaming world is the Ann Rice wanabe 'I so tormented because I am an imortal over emotional cursed to be undead, but do good to keep my humanity' vampior character.

But yes there is nothing wrong with kicking alignment rules out for monster templats. Just like goblins being automaticly evil because of race, vampires shouldnt be because of curse. It should depend on what type of person they were befor the curse, and how they delt with it afterwords.


EDIT to the potato

I remember when all healing spells where not only necromancy but reversable to harm spells.

Person_Man
2008-09-30, 03:53 PM
By RAW, no.

But most DMs don't care about RAW on fluff issues. I could see any of the options people have posted working well. I've also seen several anime and comics where a Good vampire or half-vampire hunted and fed on criminals, and/or the enemies of his clan, and/or on other vampires who are Evil for feeding on innocent people.

If you want to get philosophical about it, I'd argue that anyone who chooses to kill other sentient beings for profit would be Evil. And I'd imagine that most people in the world would agree with me. Unfortunately, that definition of Evil makes 99% of adventurers Evil. But we hand wave that away because that would make most D&D games quite boring. So we're left with a game world where killing is ok, as long as your target belongs to a certain group or race.

hamishspence
2008-09-30, 03:54 PM
Given that Wizards has done it for Fiends, which are even better candidates for Eeevil, I thought, why not make other Always Evil creatures have an option?

Since some would say causing suffering to animals by draining them is evil, since they can feel pain, I pushed it right down the scale, to the Ooze/Vermin/Plant creature level, cheaper than getting magic items.

This is based on the principle that, for an Always Evil creature to be an execption, it must be very careful about not doing evil.

erikun
2008-09-30, 04:10 PM
I would say that Vampire of the Mists is a good D&D example of a good-aligned vampire.

Still, you're probably better off with a half-vampire, or something similar. Less LA involved, and less dying from sunlight/clerics/running water (depending on edition).

J-H
2008-09-30, 06:28 PM
Helm of Opposite Alignment in the backstory answers all rule objections on this, at least for the alignment :)

Now, how he manages to feed and play out the rest of the game could be a bit more complex...

I am currently running a vampire (2 levels in vamp of 8 from the savage species template so far) here on the boards in a game, and he's using a ring of sustenance.

Talya
2008-09-30, 06:31 PM
Depends greatly on setting and how you're treating vampires.

Vampires have suffered from "Drizzt" syndrome. Like Drizzt, I have nothing against the occasional good Vampire (Angel and Spike! Yay! Angel had a soul, though, and Spike fell in love and ended up getting his soul back anyway) The problem is when they become more common than evil ones...that is, unless the setting doesn't specify vampires are necessarily evil at all. (See White Wolf games, or Underworld.)

Kaihaku
2008-09-30, 06:37 PM
I would not allow it. Vampirism is already treated too lightly in my opinion and this would only make that worse.


I remember when all healing spells where not only necromancy but reversable to harm spells.

I miss those days.

EvilElitest
2008-09-30, 06:44 PM
Personally no, because i consider the very act of becoming a vampire evil in my games

But there are no rules on the matter, so its up to your personal view on undead
from
EE

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-30, 06:47 PM
I would allow it, as long as there wasn't an easy solution in place to all the problems that being a vampire poses. If you're a vampire, sunlight kills you and no, Daylight Adaption doesn't 'cure' you (and you DEFINATELY don't sparkle.) You must drink blood, and not get a silly ring to feed you since the ring of sustenance provides a normal living creature diet. Crossing running water or entering houses uninvited are also issues. Obey all those rules and you can even be an Ann Rice/emo trendy vampire if you like.

streakster
2008-09-30, 06:48 PM
Personally no, because i consider the very act of becoming a vampire evil in my games

But there are no rules on the matter, so its up to your personal view on undead
from
EE

What if someone else makes you a vampire? What is the ruling then?

Just curious.

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 06:49 PM
Personally, I disfavor undead on the whole, so if my player wants to be a vampire I've already decided that they are dead (HA) to me, and I'll let them be as sparkly and ring of sustenancey as they want.

Though I usually disallow them, mostly on the basis that complex creatures are a character sheet nightmare. If there was a true player version I'd be cool with that.

Draco Dracul
2008-09-30, 07:05 PM
I would allow it, but not the Anne Rice angsty veriety, rather i would like them to live on non-sapient animals or vermin an one of the following:
A) They have come to terms with there new life become just another person who just happens to die in sunlight (I've never understood vampire immortality angst as there are so many ways to kill a vampire, if they can stand living forever unlike most other immortals they have several easy outs).
or
B) Have it that a side affect of vamperisum that makes most vampires evil is a mental illness that that drives the subject mad without great willpower and/or some form of medication (what can I say I'm sucker for the whole idea a battle between a person and there own madness).

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 07:09 PM
I would allow it, but not the Anne Rice angsty veriety


B) Have it that a side affect of vamperisum that makes most vampires evil is a mental illness that that drives the subject mad without great willpower and/or some form of medication (what can I say I'm sucker for the whole idea a battle between a person and there own madness).

DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Fax Celestis
2008-09-30, 07:13 PM
Personally, I disfavor undead on the whole, so if my player wants to be a vampire I've already decided that they are dead (HA) to me, and I'll let them be as sparkly and ring of sustenancey as they want.

Though I usually disallow them, mostly on the basis that complex creatures are a character sheet nightmare. If there was a true player version I'd be cool with that.

Vampiric racial class, Libris Mortis. Enjoy.

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 07:16 PM
Vampiric racial class, Libris Mortis. Enjoy.

Thanks!

Unfortunately, I have no other interest in picking up that book. Fortunately, I doubt any of my staple players are interested anyway.

SilverClawShift
2008-09-30, 07:18 PM
The way our DM handles it, is that being a vampire doesn't automatically make you evil. The trick is surviving as a vampire without becoming evil.

In our DMs world, a medium sized vampire requires 10 pints of blood every single day to continue existing, no exception. A vampire that doesn't eat for 24 hours goes into a blood frenzy, a blinding maddening screaming hunger from which the only escapes is to feed. A vampire in a frenzy can't think past blood blood blood.
Animal blood can keep the frenzy away, but it weakens the vampire (basically take away almost everything good about the vampire template).

Vampires don't starve to death, but a vampire not getting enough blood is a killing machine. A vampire not feeding off of sentients is a pitiful creature (and still has to decimate the local animal population to stay functional... goodbye livestock or hunting grounds).

So a vampires alignment doesn't change outright, but good luck finding enough food without decimating your local population. A human will replenish a lost pint of blood in about three days, but doing it too much in too short a time leads to anemia.
So if you can round up give-or-take 150 people who don't mind giving you a pint of blood every few days so you can keep being a vampire? Congrats, you're a non-evil vamp.

And even then you're a one-day trip away from going on a vicious killing spree.

*************************************

That's all a DM examining the idea of WHY a vampire in common folklore would be considered something a village would rise up and try to destroy. Aside from having the potential to spread like wildfire (1 vampire? 2 vampires. 4 vampires. 8 vampires?! 16 vampires?! By the end of the week you're looking at 64 powerful carnivores who are a day away from going into a blinding hunger-inspired rage?).
Even if vampires were careful not to spread too much, they're still a blight on the local ecosystem. There's very few environmental setups capable of handeling something that has to kill that much to survive.
Even if the vampire found an ecosystem or population capable of supporting him without wholescale death? Even if he has nothing but honest and true intentions and wants to do well in the world? He's STILL a skipped meal away from tearing your face open and feasting on the goo inside.

Conclusion? If there's a vampire around, you don't ask if he's good or evil. You sharpen a stake and get the 5 bravest warriors in the village to go kill the damn thing, out of self preservation if nothing else.

That's what our DM does anyway.
And in all fairness, an adventuring vampire is more likely to be able to find a steady stream of villains ready to be sliced and swallowed, so the idea of a good vampire in a party isn't really unreasonable. Just watch your back.

EvilElitest
2008-09-30, 07:20 PM
What if someone else makes you a vampire? What is the ruling then?

Just curious.

well in my interpretation of RAW D&D, you've lost your soul. You no longer are held back by the morals of your mortal life. You are like the person you once were, but in reality you are simply a mockery of your formal self. Your soul is to negative energy and you are now simply a monster. The real you is a torture being who has no control over the body, until the vampire is put to rest
from
EE

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 07:20 PM
I've seen the "feeding off of animal blood is weaker" vamp before. Where does that originate from, anyway?

EvilElitest
2008-09-30, 07:22 PM
I've seen the "feeding off of animal blood is weaker" vamp before. Where does that originate from, anyway?

i think human blood is just assumed to be better because Vampires are the paracides of humans who feed of their life blood. Something like that
from
EE

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 07:23 PM
i think human blood is just assumed to be better because Vampires are the paracides of humans who feed of their life blood. Something like that
from
EE

I understand the reasoning; I'm asking if anyone knows what source originated that idea, out of curiosity.

Also, I'd say you have it right as far as a canon interpretation of how vampirism works.

EvilElitest
2008-09-30, 07:29 PM
I understand the reasoning; I'm asking if anyone knows what source originated that idea, out of curiosity.

Also, I'd say you have it right as far as a canon interpretation of how vampirism works.

um, i'm guessing either old myths or the good vampire stories, i really don't know thats a good question
from
EE

SilverClawShift
2008-09-30, 07:29 PM
I've seen the "feeding off of animal blood is weaker" vamp before. Where does that originate from, anyway?

I don't know where exactly it originates. I assumed it was our DM coming up with a logical reason a vampire wouldn't just feed on stray dogs and housecats (or cows, or deer, or...)

My gaming group is actually working on a side project for our dustland campaign setting though, titled "The Ultimate Nosferatu". It's an examination of what vampires are, the difference between them, an in-game explenation for having different "Types" of vampires, and a reworking from the ground up of a D20 vampire for use by DMs and players.
Since part of it is going to be about blood-fueled powers, there's also going to be a thorough detailing of what different types fo blood mean to a vampire (stuff like Magical Beast or Dragon blood being more valuable, giants blood actually being weaker, ect).

Draco Dracul
2008-09-30, 07:44 PM
DOES NOT COMPUTE.

I figured Anne Rice was "Woe is me I hate living forever, but a wouldn't even dream of taking my own life" rather than "There is a monster in my head, I must fight it if I wish to stay who I am."

All I know about the Anne Rice vampires was from movie version of "An Interview with a Vampire" and the former impression is more what I got than the latter.

RebelRogue
2008-09-30, 07:46 PM
The origin of the blood having to be human is of course that the vampire is supposed to symbolise the dark and destructive sides of human nature. He has a basic need to kill other humans for survival. If a vampire could simply satiate his lust for blood by drinking from cows all that poignant symbolism goes right down the drain.

Is that the kind of explanation you're looking for or did I misunderstand?

EvilElitest
2008-09-30, 07:54 PM
The origin of the blood having to be human is of course that the vampire is supposed to symbolise the dark and destructive sides of human nature. He has a basic need to kill other humans for survival. If a vampire could simply satiate his lust for blood by drinking from cows all that poignant symbolism goes right down the drain.

Is that the kind of explanation you're looking for or did I misunderstand?

i offered something like it, the question is who thought of it first?
from
EE

RebelRogue
2008-09-30, 08:02 PM
Oh, I see. Well, to clarify: I think it's basically as old as the very idea of vampires. Vampires are not real (to the best of our knowledge, hehe), but the reason people ever got the idea they existed in the first place, was because of cruel actions of human beings: vampires are bound to be evil as they're made-up monsters!

EvilElitest
2008-09-30, 08:03 PM
oh thanks
from
EE

Starbuck_II
2008-09-30, 08:40 PM
This is based on the fact that, despite the term "always Evil" being used, exceptions exist.

Now, what would you require, for a vampire to qualify for this execption, and be deemed Neutral, or maybe even Good?

Option 1: Only consensual feeding, never lethal, from intelligent beings.

Option 2: Only feeding from very low intelligence creatures (animals)

Option 3: Only feeding from creatures with intelligence 0, that arguably cannot feel pain the way more intelligent ones can: (vermin, plant creatures. Oozes?)

Since by rules, vampire can drain constitution, or use Energy drain, on vermin or plant creatures (assassin vine, shambling mound, etc, which still count as Living Creatures, it can effectively satisfy its dietary requirements (must drain to stay sane, by Libris Mortis rules).

So, even if you insisted on option 3 for Non-evil vampires, it would still be possible by rules.


Varney the Vegetarian Vampire?
Option 2 + the enemies we fight.
After all, bite on the neck is no worse than a sword in the gut.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-30, 09:01 PM
Varney the Vegetarian Vampire?

This role has already been filled by:


http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/ducky-boos/Fanart/Stacey%20W/DuckulaWeb01.png
DUCKULA! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VthsQVsXwEg)

Zeful
2008-09-30, 09:10 PM
By RAW, no.

By RAW, yes. Through the Helm of Opposite Alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#helmofOppositeAlignment). Granted with a DC15 Will save, most decent vamps should be able to unwillingly resist it. Any creature of any "Always ____" Alignment can be turned, either willingly of their own free will, or being tricked into accepting the "curse" and lowering whatever defenses they might have.

Only 4,000 gp to change someone's mind and out look instantly.

EvilElitest
2008-09-30, 09:12 PM
aren't undead immune to will effects?
from
EE

Zeful
2008-09-30, 09:15 PM
aren't undead immune to will effects?
from
EE

That's a very good point, one that I hadn't considered/remembered.

So no Vampire's Can't be good by RAW. Everything vulnerable to Will saves, Yes

EvilElitest
2008-09-30, 09:17 PM
That's a very good point, one that I hadn't considered/remembered.

So no Vampire's Can't be good by RAW. Everything vulnerable to Will saves, Yes

thanks. Well you could have a positive energy one i suppose
from
EE

turkishproverb
2008-09-30, 09:27 PM
um, i'm guessing either old myths or the good vampire stories, i really don't know thats a good question
from
EE

I'm not sure who started it, but Anne Rice popularized the idea alot.


thanks. Well you could have a positive energy one i suppose
from
EE

A:
Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.


Translation, he feels bad, repents

B:
Also, there's a spell from Book of Exalted Deeds called Sanctify the Wicked, which automatically changes your alignment to good.

easy fix

And as to the Helm, I'll quote the Lich discussion here:

C:
There's also the curious note that technically a Helm of Opposite Alignment is not Mind-Affecting, and your standard Monster Manual Lich is not immune to the alignment reversal....

So, it is not technically mind Affecting. Bingo bango bongo, changed lich.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-30, 09:29 PM
aren't undead immune to will effects?
from
EE

They have immunity to mind affecting effects, like charms, phantasms and the like (which I've always disagreed with, personally.) Helm of Opposite Alignment is more of a curse, though.

Also, the 'always' entry doesn't mean every last single example has to be that alignment. There are plenty of evil angel examples, some of them governing the lower planes. It just means that you are unlikely to see an exception in your entire lifetime.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-30, 10:02 PM
They have immunity to mind affecting effects, like charms, phantasms and the like (which I've always disagreed with, personally.) Helm of Opposite Alignment is more of a curse, though.

Also, the 'always' entry doesn't mean every last single example has to be that alignment. There are plenty of evil angel examples, some of them governing the lower planes. It just means that you are unlikely to see an exception in your entire lifetime.

Exactlty, look at Drizzt or the Succubus Paladin (made by WotC) both Good when alignmernt always says evil.

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 10:23 PM
Are Drow actually Always CE instead of Usually? (Or whatever their alignment is?)

Leon
2008-09-30, 11:42 PM
If a vampire could simply satiate his lust for blood by drinking from cows all that poignant symbolism goes right down the drain.
?

Unless he's a Vampire Cow

Ive entertained the Idea of playing a half vampire paladin with the Blood Dependant aspect for a challenge but i dont think the current DMs would like it.

Kaihaku
2008-09-30, 11:58 PM
I've seen the "feeding off of animal blood is weaker" vamp before. Where does that originate from, anyway?

I'm thinking it goes back to at least the original Dracula, probably further.

Innis Cabal
2008-10-01, 12:04 AM
Romania....one of the oldest vampire traditions.

Woot Spitum
2008-10-01, 12:25 PM
No, I wouldn't allow it. If someone wants to play a vampire, I think they should explore what it is like to be a vampire in the traditional sense rather than use a Face/Heel turn as an excuse to play as a powerful monster character. Playing a good vampire should be very difficult to manage, every bit as difficult as say, playing a merfolk character in a land-based campaign.

BRC
2008-10-01, 01:01 PM
My current campaign contains a vampire (The PC's havn't met him yet) who isn't really evil. He's a noble, though in this city the noble families control companies instead of land, and he happens to control the largest bank in the city. He was turned into a vampire by another vampire who wanted accsess to this money. That vampire got killed, and so this one lives on free-willed. The local church knows about it,though they don't want to kill/reaveal him because A. it's very useful to have a friends in powerful places and B. Revealing to hte superstitious masses that the biggest banker in the city was a vampire would likely cause alot of economic troubles. (The church is very politically savvy in this setting). He slakes his bloodthirst by drinking the absolute minmum from his bodyguards, who are then restored by A cleric the church assigned to follow him around. If he dies, his coffin is hidden under the temple.
Obviously such an arrangement isn't quite practical for everybody, but I consider it a decent way to do a non-evil vampire.

AstralFire
2008-10-01, 01:23 PM
No, I wouldn't allow it. If someone wants to play a vampire, I think they should explore what it is like to be a vampire in the traditional sense rather than use a Face/Heel turn as an excuse to play as a powerful monster character. Playing a good vampire should be very difficult to manage, every bit as difficult as say, playing a merfolk character in a land-based campaign.

Some items I made for a campaign featuring Merfolk and Batpeople (Chiropters, custom race) with light blindness:

Portable Palanquin: A white, translucent floating disk, a Portable Palanquin is mostly useless to creatures who can walk well, but it is indispensable to Merfolk, as well as being used by many a healer with a badly wounded patient.

A Portable Palanquin is a permanent Tenser's Floating Disk spell that can hold up to 400 pounds of material, and has a movement speed of 40 feet. It cannot cross any area or substance its payload would not be able to stand on, and standing on it imposes a -5 to Balance checks to stay upright in a narrow or uneven area. It is telepathically controlled by a ring on its owner's hand; this ring still takes up a ring slot. It obeys commands when within 500 feet of its owner. Moving a Portable Palanquin is a move-equivalent action that provokes no attacks of opportunity.

Weak evocation; CL 4th; Craft Wondrous Item, Tenser's Floating Disk; Price 2,000 GP; Weight 0 lbs.

Sunglasses: Dark lenses which function solely to keep the light out of one's eyes. Most creatures with sensitivity to bright light due to being blinded can wear these and be fine. Wearing sunglasses in poorly lit areas renders a character blind until the glasses are removed. Putting on or taking off sunglasses is a move action which does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Cost: 15 GP.

chiasaur11
2008-10-01, 01:44 PM
Some items I made for a campaign featuring Merfolk and Batpeople (Chiropters, custom race) with light blindness:

Portable Palanquin: A white, translucent floating disk, a Portable Palanquin is mostly useless to creatures who can walk well, but it is indispensable to Merfolk, as well as being used by many a healer with a badly wounded patient.

A Portable Palanquin is a permanent Tenser's Floating Disk spell that can hold up to 400 pounds of material, and has a movement speed of 40 feet. It cannot cross any area or substance its payload would not be able to stand on, and standing on it imposes a -5 to Balance checks to stay upright in a narrow or uneven area. It is telepathically controlled by a ring on its owner's hand; this ring still takes up a ring slot. It obeys commands when within 500 feet of its owner. Moving a Portable Palanquin is a move-equivalent action that provokes no attacks of opportunity.

Weak evocation; CL 4th; Craft Wondrous Item, Tenser's Floating Disk; Price 2,000 GP; Weight 0 lbs.

Sunglasses: Dark lenses which function solely to keep the light out of one's eyes. Most creatures with sensitivity to bright light due to being blinded can wear these and be fine. Wearing sunglasses in poorly lit areas renders a character blind until the glasses are removed. Putting on or taking off sunglasses is a move action which does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Cost: 15 GP.

Do you get a bonus for saying a quip as you don the sunglasses?

AstralFire
2008-10-01, 01:50 PM
Do you get a bonus for saying a quip as you don the sunglasses?

No, I made these items years ago, before CSI: Miami.

Though I should probably consider it. I guess you've... enlightened me.

*slips on sunglasses*

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Telonius
2008-10-01, 02:09 PM
Varney the Vegetarian Vampire?

Count Duckula.

And yes, I'd allow it, unless it's in a pre-made setting that forbids it.

Narmoth
2008-10-01, 02:11 PM
For me, the fact that a vampire drinks human / humanoid blood is a large defining part of him being vampire..

So, if a player wanted a good vampire, I'd say great, but force him to follow the same limitations as the core vampire, and having him find a way round the problem of being good and drinking human blood rather than rule around it. Making rules around it makes vampires just another human in funny suit, giving the right to call yourself vampire and benefit from some combat template stuff, but ruins the flavor.

I ran a vampire paladin in the town here on the forum. Nothing ruined the play for me more than that you could buy blood over the counter in the tavern.

hamishspence
2008-10-01, 02:25 PM
yes, the thirst rules are Libris Mortis, and they require satisfaction by the vampire itself doing the draining. They don't die for not doing it, but do go mad. It does not say, must be human/humanoid/intelligent though.

Which is why the only easy way round it is non-intelligent prey, if you feel that inflicting the drain on intelligent prey should be considered evil.

Complete Divine (and only complete divine) states specifically that vampires have a trapped soul and a body controlled by a "malign intelligence" However Savage Species lists vampire template among those available to those who wish to play monster characters, as does Libris Mortis. There is also "emancipated spawn" for undead who become free-willed when their creator is slain.

Besides the idea of vampire somehow getting soul back, there is also idea of evil creature becoming less so, even jumping the line into Neutral. Even fiends can do it (cambion, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, Evil, Chaotic, Extraplanar subtypes, 1 in 10 are Neutral or Good) They do have a trace of non-outsider blood.


Closest thing to RAW is the statement that "Always Evil" does not preclude existence of 1 in a million exceptions, in Monster Manual.

Drascin
2008-10-01, 02:27 PM
i think human blood is just assumed to be better because Vampires are the paracides of humans who feed of their life blood. Something like that
from
EE

Reminds me of Nasuverse vampires. They need blood from whatever their their previous species is, because vampirism makes genetic material decay rapidly and they need to process new one. 'Course, in most cases, of course, this "previous species" tends to be human, with all the problems that entails.

And most vampires do tend to go evil anyway, but there are the few rare ones that don't (I think I read a side mention on an interview by the author that yes, there are vampires raiding Red Cross supplies at night in some places). Still, most vampires are evil and feed on most anything just for the pleasure of it (and I do mean anything. Nasuverse has some weird vampires)

The "original vampires", the ones that were born that way, though, don't technically need blood, but they get a horribly strong compulsion to drink it anyway. This would probably be how I'd play a good vampire in my campaign if a player really wanted to do so - they can pass without it and not be weakened, but they want it, and it becomes increasingly hard to resist until they end up snapping or going into a frenzy.

hamishspence
2008-10-01, 02:31 PM
Remember they have two thirsts to feed, not one. Absence of blood leads to immobility, absence of energy draining leads to madness. Neither will kill a vampire though.

Jayabalard
2008-10-01, 02:38 PM
1 in a million exceptionsBut that would mean that 9/10 would be good instead of evil...

hamishspence
2008-10-01, 02:45 PM
Cambion had Usually Chaotic evil, whereas Vampires have Always Evil (any)

Non-evil vampires should be rare, and according to Libris Mortis, Neutral at best is more plausible. Still, its better than just ruling them out entirely.

Jeivar
2008-10-01, 03:53 PM
As a slight aside, could someone tell me where the "sparkly vampires" comes from? I've seen it mentioned before.

And to answer the original question: I'm no expert, but aren't D&D vampires animated by Negative Energy, and therefore INCAPABLE of being good?

Jayabalard
2008-10-01, 04:01 PM
As a slight aside, could someone tell me where the "sparkly vampires" comes from? I've seen it mentioned before.Probably a reference to the twilight (http://www.stepheniemeyer.com/twilightseries.html) series.

SurlySeraph
2008-10-01, 04:35 PM
As a slight aside, could someone tell me where the "sparkly vampires" comes from? I've seen it mentioned before.

And to answer the original question: I'm no expert, but aren't D&D vampires animated by Negative Energy, and therefore INCAPABLE of being good?

The Plane of Negative Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#NegativeEnergyPlane) does not have the Evil-Aligned planar trait. Negative energy is not inherently evil.

@V: Eh, lots of people think negative energy is evil because it's constantly associated with evil things (Rebuke Undead uses negative energy, Inflict spells use negative energy, most undead are always evil) that it's easy to overlook that the thing itself technically isn't evil. I homebrewed a negative-energy-user PrC intended for paladins purely because the imbalance bothered me so much.

Jeivar
2008-10-01, 05:06 PM
The Plane of Negative Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#NegativeEnergyPlane) does not have the Evil-Aligned planar trait. Negative energy is not inherently evil.

Ah. Shows how much I know.

BRC
2008-10-01, 05:19 PM
Ah. Shows how much I know.
No, it just shows how much the energy/alignment thingy is messed up.

Pandaren
2008-10-01, 05:52 PM
The Plane of Negative Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#NegativeEnergyPlane) does not have the Evil-Aligned planar trait. Negative energy is not inherently evil.


Aww, beat me to it.

Good vampires, http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j173/Pandaren_photos/070919-1.jpg