PDA

View Full Version : How do I fix this?



Talya
2008-09-30, 05:09 PM
I know there are people out there who like to treat gaming like a wargame, a strategy game where they need every last detail before they'll make any decision at all, trying to look for loopholes or things the DM hadn't thought of or crap like that.

I don't play or DM in that type of game. I'm running a PbP game, but it's very informal. I rarely show maps or diagrams unless necessary, and then I specify "not to scale" because I'm trying to illustrate a specific point that's not getting across. I've never had any problems with this with any of my players.

I've got a new player who insists on details that I have not thought of, and have no intention of thinking out. Geometry questions, speed of the water in a river, blah blah blah. It's obvious from where he's taking this that he's trying to come up with ways to turn the tables on the DM.

It all started with an attempt to take a couple longboats upriver on an island, to surprise a camp of cannibals. Now, it was his suggestion to take the river, and I thought it sound...however, this is a large volcanic island with a mountain on it, and the river starts partway up the mountain. I figured, with the river dropping several hundred feet over a few miles, rapids weren't out of the question, so at one point I forced them to portage (with longboats, no less) for a small distance. First thing he did was scream bloody murder that there are no rapids on volcanic islands. (Fiji says otherwise, but I don't care. There's no islands with tyrannosaurs, magical vaults of treasure, a large sized dragon, and tribes of cannibal barbarians on them either. In my game, there is.) Then he started demanding exact distances to everything. (Before you suggest he's metagaming, I've specified he has a very accurate map so his character might actually know these things.) I asked why, what does he need to know, and I'll figure it out for him. No, he wants to figure it out himself. I point out even I have not created an in detail map of this island. My gaming's always been more free form in that regard (I don't even do battle maps most of the time if they can be avoided) and keep the details in my head. What I don't want him doing is getting me to assign some arbitrary figure, then telling me why a certain thing I've told him is wrong based on that figure. I haven't mapped it out. I don't intend to, it's a vague idea in my head, it's enough for the narrative. It's enough that your character knows it, the player doesn't need to because it's not important."Yes, but if I knew, perhaps ... " Well bloody hell, I know! That's part of why you don't know! I am not spending many hours of my time painstakingly making a map that fits the idea in my head, but you cannot take advantage of some oversight on my part. That's not what type of game this is. There were 6 other players here having a blast before you came along and started bitching at everything.

There's no "right" or "wrong" way to play, but you do have to play along the same style as the group you're playing with. I don't know what to do with him.

Cuddly
2008-09-30, 05:19 PM
Show him this post, explain the problem, and then tell him to find another game if he wants specifics.

Btw, if you have a river drop a few hundred feat per mile, you are going to have really epic rapids. We're talking totally impassable places going upstream, if no possible way up stream due to current. If it's volcanic, you can get some gnarly stuff where the whole river disappears or goes into a very narrow, very swift channel.

Even going downstream would be near impossible, unless you had modern kayaks and total bad asses that can run class VI rapids (on a scale that caps at V).

BRC
2008-09-30, 05:21 PM
It depends, do you want to be a smart alec.

First of all, inform him that he's bogging down the game and making things alot less fun for everybody else, confrontation usually works in these situations.


If he insists, you can still refuse to give him exact details because no matter how detailed the map isit can't tell their exact location, and assuming this is a decently sized island it can't be precise enough for the type of calculations he says he wants.

Also, would his character know how to make such calculations, does he have the proper equipment for doing so (To measure the flow of a river, especially a fast moving one, accuratly, you need a good measuring stick and a stopwatch or some other very reliable means of keeping time).
Also, on the "Volcanic islands don't have rapids" thing, nod and say "Your right, that's totally unrealistic, sorry, I'll try to be better about stuff like that. On that note, nobody can cast spells anymore, magic items don't work, everybody's race changes to human (ect ect...)


Really, it just sounds like this guy is being a jerk. If you are good friends with any of the other players, see if you can get them to create some peer-pressure amongst the players for this guy to quiet down and let the group get on with the game.

NecroRebel
2008-09-30, 05:24 PM
I'd say first, direct him to this little rant of yours (:smalltongue:), then ask him what he wants to do with that information. If it is gamebreaking for it to work, make the distance too long or short. If he refuses to tell you, repeat that it doesn't matter, and if he bitches too hard, ask him to stop posting (essentially, kick him out of the game). Simply put, if he's being disruptive, it isn't worth it for you to keep him in your game.

You can also assign a totally arbitrary distance for this one time and then never refer to it again, and if you need the distance to be longer or shorter later, make it longer or shorter later. If he complains, use the classic "a wizard did it" excuse, shortly followed by introducing a wizard (who magically shortened or lengthened the river) :smallsmile:

Cuddly
2008-09-30, 05:27 PM
The Hawaiian islands, for instance, have rivers on them. Which, incidentally, have rapids so impassable as to be called waterfalls.

Toliudar
2008-09-30, 05:28 PM
You didn't ask this, Talya, but in case it's not completely clear from the responses above: you're doing the right thing to resist this effort to grind the game down with details. If this stops being fun for you, the game is dead in the water.

erikun
2008-09-30, 05:33 PM
How long will it take them of foot?
How much quicker is travelling by water than by foot?

From there, just assign a DC to travel the rapids (since there isn't a boating skill, Dex check DC 30 should be just about impossible) and let them coast down the rapids if they'd like.

It's the DM's job to present the world. It's not the DM's job to keep the party members from doing something stupid. If your player wants to sail a boat down the rapids and the party goes with, let them.

snoopy13a
2008-09-30, 05:34 PM
For the water speed, ask him if he has Profession: Sailor. If not, he doesn't know how to measure it.

He has a map but he doesn't have a compass or sextant or anything that can tell exact location. So they can only navigate using the sun once they've found landmarks. Additionally, they have no way of meauring distance traveled. They can't say: "We'll walk 10 miles east and then 10 miles south" because they really don't know how far 10 miles is, especially in rough slow-going terrain. I suppose an exception can be made if a character has the survival skill. Also, trying to navigate by just the sun is really difficult. In a dense forest, it would be quite easy to miss a landmark that one is aiming for..

Also, locations such as cannibal villages shouldn't be on the map. Make the cannibals semi-nomadic by moving the villages a couple of miles every few years.

Cuddly
2008-09-30, 05:36 PM
I'd make all those survival checks, personally.
Back when people were stronger, they were also better navigators. Your reliance on tom-tom is not an indication of others' ability to navigate without tools.

Talya
2008-09-30, 05:41 PM
Also, would his character know how to make such calculations, does he have the proper equipment for doing so.



For the water speed, ask him if he has Profession: Sailor. If not, he doesn't know how to measure it.

He has a map but he doesn't have a compass or sextant or anything that can tell exact location. So they can only navigate using the sun once they've found landmarks. Additionally, they have no way of meauring distance traveled. They can't say: "We'll walk 10 miles east and then 10 miles south" because they really don't know how far 10 miles is, especially in rough slow-going terrain. I suppose an exception can be made if a character has the survival skill. Also, trying to navigate by just the sun is really difficult. In a dense forest, it would be quite easy to miss a landmark that one is aiming for..

Also, locations such as cannibal villages shouldn't be on the map. Make the cannibals semi-nomadic by moving the villages a couple of miles every few years.

I need to address this. His character is the navigator aboard the pirate ship the party happens to captain and crew. He is skilled with profession sailor, and every appropriate knowledge skill needed to properly navigate at sea, and to a lesser degree on land. The character actually belonged to another player who had to bow out due to other issues, and I had continued running her as an NPC until this guy took over....at which point i was grateful. Naval campaigns usually end up with a significant number of regular NPCs due to ships needing larger crews than even big PbP parties can fill. I hated running such an important character (previously) as an NPC, so I was happy to have someone take over. I'm really wishing the person who made the character kept playing.

ocato
2008-09-30, 05:42 PM
Again, like everyone has said, reason with him. If that doesn't work, use this formula:

Roll a d20. If you get a number, kick him out of the game.

If this were a real-life game at a table, I'd advocate steel-toed boots and real kicking.

RebelRogue
2008-09-30, 05:47 PM
I need to address this. His character is the navigator aboard the pirate ship the party happens to captain and crew. He is skilled with profession sailor
Ouch, then you're in trouble! Everbody knows you can do anything with the Profession (Sailor) skill!

Seriously though, he sounds like a jerk! Tell him that he's missing the point of what this campaign is about!

sonofzeal
2008-09-30, 05:49 PM
Remind him that {a} you are the DM, {b} this world is not the real world, and {c} if something doesn't make sense, then the appropriate response is not "wtf u sux", but "a wizard did it".

Beyond that... what I find helpful is to ask them to make an appropriate roll. Even if they can pass it easily, this stalls them long enough to come up with at least something vaguely reasonable. If you end up with something inconsistent, either ret-con if it's minor, or ask the player why they think it's like that. As soon as they treat it as a puzzle rather than a continuity error, you've won.

Alternatively, recruit to resident expert/nitpicker (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0150.html) into handling the details that are within their area of expertise, as long as they're willing to not meta-game.

Nohwl
2008-09-30, 05:51 PM
respond with measurements specific to the game world and nowhere else.

he wants to know the river speed? 674367354367534732 tesllvus.

he might complain that the number is meaningless, so point out that not everyone uses the same system of measurement and they dont use the same type we do. if he wants to know a conversion, ask him what the average river speed is and tell him to figure it out.

snoopy13a
2008-09-30, 05:53 PM
I'd make all those survival checks, personally.
Back when people were stronger, they were also better navigators. Your reliance on tom-tom is not an indication of others' ability to navigate without tools.

Have you ever tried orienteering? It isn't that easy navigating with simply a map and a compass. And I don't believe they have a compass.

Yes, a few cultures in the South Pacific were able to navigate across the ocean using dead reckoning but they were a huge exception. In order to find exact location people need a sextant (measures latitude) and a chromometer (measures longitude). Then they would need a compass to measure direction. Now all of these are theorectically possible to have in a DnD system but I doubt the party would have them or know how to use them unless they were sailors. Additionally, if there is a difference between true north and magnetic north, they would have to compensate for this magnetic declination. This is shown on most modern maps.

This isn't a video game where you know your exact location on a map. Trying to gauge direction from the sun isn't exact as the Sun doesn't rise in the direct east or set in the direct west unless you're at the equator. Basically, they would have to come across a landmark to find their exact location. Then they'd have to try and navigate via dead reckoning using the Sun which is not exact. The terrain they have to cross probably is difficult so going in a straight path would be difficult. All of these, plus a dense forest environment would make it difficult to go from one landmark to another.

* After reading next post by the OP it looks like the character is capable of determining all this (ship navigator and his/her mates would probably be the only people who could. However, you can make it a slow process by either having rainy days (can't use a sextant if you can't see the sun) or by making the terrain difficult to cross.

Eldariel
2008-09-30, 05:54 PM
As has been said, just confront him about it. Chances are he just doesn't realize he's being distortive and that his questions are out of the spirit of the game (some of us are just really dense and miss things that aren't specifically pointed out multiple times - sorry!). So yea, talk it out and you should be fine.

BRC
2008-09-30, 05:57 PM
I'd make all those survival checks, personally.
Back when people were stronger, they were also better navigators. Your reliance on tom-tom is not an indication of others' ability to navigate without tools.
yeah, but it sounds like he wants Exact numbers.

Good navigation skills is looking at a map, making a few estimates and saying "We should get there in a week or so provided we don't get caught in a storm or anything." Not "The base of that mountain is 5.2 miles from the base of this tree."


Also, the philosophy of "Tell me EVERYTHING in case I can use it in some way" is kinda stupid.

Talya
2008-09-30, 05:58 PM
As has been said, just confront him about it. Chances are he just doesn't realize he's being distortive and that his questions are out of the spirit of the game (some of us are just really dense and miss things that aren't specifically pointed out multiple times - sorry!). So yea, talk it out and you should be fine.

I did ask him several times. He kept arguing. I finally demanded the argument leave the PbP thread and go into the OOC forum, where I can ignore it. He seems to have complied with that.

Matthew
2008-09-30, 06:04 PM
Turn the questions round. Ask him how fast he thinks it ought to be flowing, how far he thinks distance X should be, and ask him for reasons and evidence for his conclusions. In short, force him to make up the details.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-30, 06:04 PM
Reverse attack! Have a native tribal girl show up and fall madly in love with him, and distract his character whenever he tries to measure anything. Or dump him from the group, which might be better in the long run. It's a game, and there's no IC excuse for being a jerk OOC.

Cuddly
2008-09-30, 06:08 PM
Have you ever tried orienteering?

Have you ever tried navigating with only a map?
If the map is good, it's not hard.

I trek around the wilds of Alaska with only a map to navigate with. Sea kayaking on coasts with a good map is also easy.

You don't need a bunch of fancy tools to figure out your speed if you know how fast you can move through a given terrain. I walk at about 3 mph on a good game trail. If I have to go uphill, I add one hour for every 1,000 feet of elevation gain.


Yes, a few cultures in the South Pacific were able to navigate across the ocean using dead reckoning but they were a huge exception. In order to find exact location people need a sextant (measures latitude) and a chromometer (measures longitude). Then they would need a compass to measure direction. Now all of these are theorectically possible to have in a DnD system but I doubt the party would have them or know how to use them unless they were sailors. Additionally, if there is a difference between true north and magnetic north, they would have to compensate for this magnetic declination. This is shown on most modern maps.

They're not navigating on open ocean. They're on an island. Unless the island is totally fractal in every way, there should be landmarks. Recognizable ones. Say, are we walking towards or away from the volcano? Are the ancient ruins to our left or right? Is the sun rising behind me?

All of this could easily be modeled with a simple survival (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/survival.htm) roll and knowledge geography check. Maybe a +2 circumstance bonus from the map.


This isn't a video game where you know your exact location on a map. Trying to gauge direction from the sun isn't exact as the Sun doesn't rise in the direct east or set in the direct west unless you're at the equator. Basically, they would have to come across a landmark to find their exact location. Then they'd have to try and navigate via dead reckoning using the Sun which is not exact. The terrain they have to cross probably is difficult so going in a straight path would be difficult. All of these, plus a dense forest environment would make it difficult to go from one landmark to another.

With a good enough map (ie, one with lots of landmarks), it all comes down to recognizing what landmark you're looking at. If anyone in the party has ranks in survival, I reckon they're following game trails. Climbing a tree for a vantage point isn't out of the question, given that it's DnD and climbing a tree is as easy saying "I climb a tree" and rolling a d20.

In a jungle environment, navigation is extremely hard. However, there are people that can do it, and do do it, with no tools whatsoever. Not even maps. In fact, all those tools would be VERY difficult to use, since a dense forest precludes one from seeing the sun and stars above.

Again, though, a simple survival check would suffice. If you feel like you have to be a **** about it, then give them -2 for not being familiar with the terrain type.

Talya
2008-09-30, 06:17 PM
Heh. Fortunately the party has a rather fun player-character ranger* who's got exceptional survival abilities.

* Meet Angus. Angus is a drunk Seacliff Dwarf. Those rare times he's sober are because the rum was gone. See, Angus captained his own ship many moons ago, until the sea-beast that sunk her left him a ruined man....err...dwarf. Now Angus spends so much time grunting and murmuring unintelligibly that nobody takes him seriously...which is doubly fun because with some rather high strength, constitution, intelligence and wisdom scores(while totally dumping dex and cha), Angus with his pair of dwarven waraxes, campaign-appropriate favored enemies, tons of skills, extra feats (Flaws: Shaky and unreactive...the fool actually rolled negative-5 on his last initiative check), is an exceptional ranger and wilderness guide. If the navigator would shut up and let angus do his thing, they'd all get there no problem.

Erk
2008-09-30, 06:39 PM
Ugh, I used to play with a guy like that in high school. There's a good reason I don't play with him anymore (mainly that I don't have any idea where he is and don't care, but whatevs).

Basically, I would just lay it out frankly. Tell him you haven't got that information, do not know enough about geography to create it even if you were interested in doing so, and that if you had created a bunch of arbitrary numbers for him, you wouldn't know enough about what they meant to properly determine the viability of any plan he thought up related to them. Ensure him that his lack of knowledge of those specific numbers will not be used against his character, and he's going to have to make do with accepting that distances and speeds and things will be described as "far", "fast", and other qualitative measures. Be nice about it, at least at first, because some players don't realise how unreasonable their requests are.

If he becomes stubborn or belligerent, you may have to politely kick him out of the game. Tell him you can't run the kind of game he wants to play, and are not going to start; if he doesn't want to play the game the way you want to run it, you're sorry but he'll have to sit it out. Remind him that having fun while playing is just as important to you as everyone else, and you just are not interested in devoting your spare time to developing the details he wants, when you could be using it on details that will instead improve the campaign in meaningful ways. And be sure to tell him you're sorry you can't run the game he wants; don't make it sound like it's his fault for being such an anal retentive jerko.

Kizara
2008-10-01, 06:39 AM
I would consider replacing your player, as your DMing style is similar to what I'm used to playing with/using myself.

Sometimes details matter, but its generally only relivant as far as having the same mental picture as the DM and having things add up and make sense.


Sounds like this guy is enthusiastic but really is just a trouble maker.

Sebastian
2008-10-01, 08:25 AM
You can also assign a totally arbitrary distance for this one time and then never refer to it again, and if you need the distance to be longer or shorter later, make it longer or shorter later. If he complains, use the classic "a wizard did it" excuse, shortly followed by introducing a wizard (who magically shortened or lengthened the river) :smallsmile:

Or just say the map is wrong, how much accurate the map of a savage island infested by cannibals and monsters can be, anyway?

I say, give him rope and let him to hang himself.

only1doug
2008-10-01, 08:43 AM
Send a message to the player in question:


Dear Player;

I understand that you are looking for Accuracy of details within the game world to allow you the oppertunity to take advantage of the terrain better.

Unfortunately I don't run a detailed mapping game and don't intend to start doing so for your benefit.

My GMing style is co-oporative rather than antagonistic, simply tell me what you wish to achieve and I will work with you to achieve that goal (if it is within your characters capabilities).

If you find my GMing style is still not to your liking then I regret that we will have to part ways, I wish you the best of luck in finding a GM that runs her games in the style you enjoy playing.

Yours Sincerely GM

valadil
2008-10-01, 08:47 AM
Just tell him it's not that type of game. Explain the type of game you're running. He's welcome to stay, if he can stick to your style of game. If he tells you you're playing wrong or anything like that, punt him.

daggaz
2008-10-01, 09:31 AM
No rapids on volcanic islands? Ha. Kick him out for being a total ass.

No seriously... I have yet to see rivers on volcanic islands that aren't entirely impassable for the majority of their length. And whoever mentioned the bit about the river could go underground?? Yeah, totally, and its really, really scary. Think a black, gaping, sucking maw in the earth that swallows the entire river and anything in it... it is certain death. And the river usually runs so fast right before it goes in, you had better have gotten out of the water a good quarter mile up stream, at least. And that is in real life (there is a great one in Guatemala like that...eesh it still gives me the creepy shivers just thinking about it).

As far as moving around in tropical jungle... its totally different from temperate rainforest (sorry Alaska.. and I'm from Oregon myself). The canopy can easily be so thick, that there is NO direct sunlight for miles. And climbing a tree is nothing like it is with the good old ladder-like conifers. Tropical trees tend to branch out crazily, you can go so far up easily enough... but then it gets real hairy and the ground is far away and nothing will really support your weight, so you usually just head back down to terra firma before you break your leg in the middle of nowhere.

So you have an ultra thick canopy, the ground often swells and dips violently (old lava flows) and the only time you can be sure of where you are, is when you are directly on the main slopes of the volcano itself. (the lower slopes are the swelly-dippy parts where it is so so easy to get lost).

Add to this the fact that most everything is poisonous or covered in thorns, the rocks are like RAZOR sharp, even tho they are moss and leaf covered, there are freaking vines and impassable underbrush covering EVERYTHING (also with thorns, really, dont forget the thorns), and there are very few if any real "game trails" as we are used to thinking of.. (on volcanic islands, there are few larger animals that arent monkeys or birds, so its flight or brachiation ftw) ... and you've got yourself the recipee for "Hey, it toook ALL day to go about one mile thru the jungle."

For an added bonus, dont forget that wounds (and omg you will get scratched up) do NOT heal normally in a tropical climate. The heat and humidity and incredible amount of microorganisms cause them instead to fester and spread. Flies will even lay eggs directly in them, which hatch into flesh eating maggots.

When I run tropical jungle scenarios, all wounds on my players will worsen by a specified amount unless they are immediately fully healed. Normal heal checks will only halt the progress, rather than doing 1hp or whatever it was.

Roderick_BR
2008-10-01, 10:23 AM
Good responses:
"Irrelevant."
"I didn't knew/thought about that, but it doesn't affect the game."
"It doesn't matter."
"In this world, that's how it works."
"Let's pretend that's how it works here."

Reminds me of this vampire/mage session, where an NPC was giving an information to the PCs, about a group of studdents visiting a morgue, those "job tour" things. One of the players commented that studdents aren't really allowed in places like that or something, and started to insist how this detail was apparently an important plot point, even after the GM said he didn't knew that, especially because, if it were true, several NPC professionals should have noticed that, not only one or two NPCs.
I heard tales of GURPS players that are even worse, like calculating the force of the winds under an helicopter, to see if the player should get a penalty to his jump check or not.

Starshade
2008-10-01, 12:18 PM
If you would enjoy entertaining a person wanting a simulation, i could think of ways to get it to work, a middle road of simulation and trowing him some bones to keep him happy.

But if YOU dont want to play that game styles, and noone other, its a problem. Sounds as you need to think though some means to keep him in control, to not ruin your other gamer's fun.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-01, 12:21 PM
I heard tales of GURPS players that are even worse, like calculating the force of the winds under an helicopter, to see if the player should get a penalty to his jump check or not.

Hey, are you saying there was something wrong with me calculating (admittedly with the aid of some GURPS Vehicles notes) that an orbit-capable space destroyer engaging its reaction thrusters at full power in orbit would cause itself to tear apart?

I say, you can't give a person a game that requires a scientific calculator and not expect them to do math!

Starshade
2008-10-01, 05:01 PM
Its play by post, so, after thinking, i dont understand why anyone would insist on so much details in a forum game. Many rpg's simply does not do accurate maps beyond simple scetches anyway, and posting online maps simply dont work the same as a simple map on a table, with counters, ppl point and discuss, etc.
Try explain common sense, how maps is impractical for online playing?

Crow
2008-10-01, 05:55 PM
As far as moving around in tropical jungle... its totally different from temperate rainforest (sorry Alaska.. and I'm from Oregon myself). The canopy can easily be so thick, that there is NO direct sunlight for miles. And climbing a tree is nothing like it is with the good old ladder-like conifers. Tropical trees tend to branch out crazily, you can go so far up easily enough... but then it gets real hairy and the ground is far away and nothing will really support your weight, so you usually just head back down to terra firma before you break your leg in the middle of nowhere.

So you have an ultra thick canopy, the ground often swells and dips violently (old lava flows) and the only time you can be sure of where you are, is when you are directly on the main slopes of the volcano itself. (the lower slopes are the swelly-dippy parts where it is so so easy to get lost).

Add to this the fact that most everything is poisonous or covered in thorns, the rocks are like RAZOR sharp, even tho they are moss and leaf covered, there are freaking vines and impassable underbrush covering EVERYTHING (also with thorns, really, dont forget the thorns), and there are very few if any real "game trails" as we are used to thinking of.. (on volcanic islands, there are few larger animals that arent monkeys or birds, so its flight or brachiation ftw) ... and you've got yourself the recipee for "Hey, it toook ALL day to go about one mile thru the jungle."

For an added bonus, dont forget that wounds (and omg you will get scratched up) do NOT heal normally in a tropical climate. The heat and humidity and incredible amount of microorganisms cause them instead to fester and spread. Flies will even lay eggs directly in them, which hatch into flesh eating maggots.

When I run tropical jungle scenarios, all wounds on my players will worsen by a specified amount unless they are immediately fully healed. Normal heal checks will only halt the progress, rather than doing 1hp or whatever it was.

A little dramatic, but quite dead on. Finding our way through the Congolese Jungle was definitly not as easy as just looking at a map and guessing our way through.

And once you start talking about travelling 100 miles or more, finding your position on even very good military maps is difficult when a lot of the terrain looks similar. That's why you need to have a good idea where you are to begin with, and how to adjust your bearings when you are forced to go around impassable terrain. You may not have an easy way to "look around" and see where you are when you come up on that obstacle.

I'm sorry, but suggesting that just taking along a map for all your navigational needs is going to be just fine is great for some places, but folly for others. Sometimes you can move from terrain feature to terrain feature, but they wouldn't teach you all of the other stuff if there was no need for it sometimes.

ericgrau
2008-10-01, 07:23 PM
I dunno if actual implementation would work, but ideally I'd actually draw up all maps that the PCs have. Probably on a computer. I'd save common map items on a seperate drawing so I could re-use them. And when they get a map, I'd simply hand it to them. Same with a lot of other documents, etc. So when they ask for a distance, they might suddenly realize that neither they nor their character has a ruler. At best they might grab a convenient object or use the width of their thumb or etc., which is perfectly reasonable.

Second, I'd make sure they strategize before combat. During combat I'd limit them to about 6 seconds a round. I mean game time not real world time; just watch out for a physically impossible level of planning, that's all.

EDIT: For pbp computer drawn maps still work fine. During combat I guess there's not much you can do.

aboyd
2008-10-01, 08:10 PM
In response to the original question, I find this is one of those places where just saying "no" and letting the no hang in the air uncomfortably is a great approach. Listen, in this kind of playstyle conflict, somebody is going to be uncomfortable. In this case, it's the DM. He's been put upon and the player is happy to stick him in that uncomfortable position. Because we're nice people, we get stuck trying to resolve something that doesn't need resolving. I've found that in such situations, the best solution is simply to refuse. You don't have to be mean or combative. Just deny the request and don't offer any more words about it -- don't go on at length, for example (if you do, the player will assume it's an open discussion, which it's not).

Again, don't be mean. Don't say, "no, and that's final, never speak of it again!" But "no, that's not the kind of game I can offer you, sorry" is pretty decent and still sounds final.

Talya
2008-10-01, 09:54 PM
Minor nitpick: She. Really! Mother of two...