Vaarsuvius Majere?

[Kaihaku]

I just watched the Dragons of Autumn Twilight Animated Movie and, well, it's been a long time since I thought about Dragonlance... But the similarities between Vaarsuvius and Raistlin struck me. Up until this point, I'd always thought that V was playing off of the elven wizard stereotype but V's drive goes beyond an proud arrogance over the "art" crossing into other territory.

Well, it's not that important, probably even original, of an observation.

[Querzis]

Well I have been saying V is gonna do a Raistlin for quite a long time, pretty much as soon as I heard the Oracle prophecy I think. Its really a quite obvious comparison. That being said, there are still lots of difference but yeah they are both wimpy wizard going after ultimate arcane power and are both using increasingly dark methods to get power.

[Laurentio II]

The fact that one is ultimately cursed, while the other is just too intelligent for his own good seems to me a sufficient diversion. But on a more superficial side, I agree.

[Setra]

I brought this up a long while back and was laughed at >.>

I wonder if more will agree now.

[Kaihaku]

Well I have been saying V is gonna do a Raistlin for quite a long time, pretty much as soon as I heard the Oracle prophecy I think. Its really a quite obvious comparison.

Guess I was right, not all that original of an observation after all.

I don't think Raistlin is a capital Evil character but he certainly was evil. Capital Evil being those terrible villains who are motivated by "evil" rather than another cause.


The fact that one is ultimately cursed, while the other is just too intelligent for his own good seems to me a sufficient diversion. But on a more superficial side, I agree.

Well, I don't think you're looking back far enough into Raistlin's past. He wasn't always cursed, he was once merely too intelligent and self-centered for his own good. His curse came out of that and it's in the realm of posiblity for V to acquire similar.


That being said, there are still lots of difference but yeah they are both wimpy wizard going after ultimate arcane power and are both using increasingly dark methods to get power.

Well, let's count the similarities...
o Wimpy Wizard
o Increasingly dark methods to obtain power
o Hates being shown up or shown lacking
o Great dry and shameless sense of humor
o Arrogant
o Non-caster parents
o Red Robes.

And the differences...
o V is an Elf
o V is not cursed...yet
o V has no specific gender
o V has no interest in love (I was wrong.)
o V is married.
o Raistlin is a lot more creepy
o V's arrogance isn't rooted in insecurity...it's not really rooted at all.
Origin of the PCs presents V as rather single minded, motivated to obtain great magical power basically because that's what elven wizards do.

Meh, I'm tired, finish the list if you want.

[Setra]

o V has no interest in love
This is incorrect, but leads to an entirely different difference.

V is married.

[Kaihaku]

This is incorrect, but leads to an entirely different difference.

V is married.

Has V struck you as very interested in that?

[Khanderas]

Has V struck you as very interested in that?
Good point. V is farily cold and non-understanding of romance. Perhaps an arranged marrage, to a (wo)man that V feels nothing big, one way or the other (neither love nor hate).
Perhaps his parents wanted grandkids and set V up to be married in hopes s(he) would stop being so singleminded toward arcane might.
No such luck.

[Starbuck_II]

Guess I was right, not all that original of an observation after all.

I don't think Raistlin is a capital Evil character but he certainly was evil. Capital Evil being those terrible villains who are motivated by "evil" rather than another cause.



Well, I don't think you're looking back far enough into Raistlin's past. He wasn't always cursed, he was once merely too intelligent and self-centered for his own good. His curse came out of that and it's in the realm of posiblity for V to acquire similar.



Well, let's count the similarities...
o Wimpy Wizard
o Increasingly dark methods to obtain power
o Hates being shown up or shown lacking
o Great dry and shameless sense of humor
o Arrogant
o Non-caster parents

And the differences...
o V is an Elf
o V is not cursed...yet
o V has no specific gender
o V has no interest in love
o Raistlin is a lot more creepy
o V's arrogance isn't rooted in insecurity...it's not really rooted at all.
Origin of the PCs presents V as rather single minded, motivated to obtain great magical power basically because that's what elven wizards do.

Meh, I'm tired, finish the list if you want.

Did you forget when V mentioned he/she had a mate?
Maybe elves don't love there mates like humans do but they do love it seems.

Arrogance rooted in insecurity... um yeah, he/she is getting arrogance because his magic keeps failing...

[Kaihaku]

Did you forget when V mentioned he/she had a mate? Maybe elves don't love there mates like humans do but they do love it seems.

Yes, I had forgotten and, no, V still strikes me as uninterested in love. I envision V's bedtalk on the honeymoon would be something like "Very well, fine, let us have sexual relations because it is expected but then I must get back to my studies."


Arrogance rooted in insecurity... um yeah, he/she is getting arrogance because his magic keeps failing...

V has always been arrogant (See Origin of PCs). Failing isn't making V more arrogant, it's making V freak out.

[Setra]

Has V struck you as very interested in that?
To an extent, not as much as Raistlin perhaps but V seems to like love at least a little (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html)

"Our wedding was the finest day of my long life"

At the very least V is interested, I would say.

[SeomanCC]

I just watched the Dragons of Autumn Twilight Animated Movie and, well, it's been a long time since I thought about Dragonlance... But the similarities between Vaarsuvius and Raistlin struck me. Up until this point, I'd always thought that V was playing off of the elven wizard stereotype but V's drive goes beyond an proud arrogance over the "art" crossing into other territory.

Well, it's not that important, probably even original, of an observation.


That movie was awesome. Kiefer was a fantastic Raistlin.

[Kaihaku]

To an extent, not as much as Raistlin perhaps but V seems to like love at least a little (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html)

"Our wedding was the finest day of my long life"

At the very least V is interested, I would say.

I stand corrected. Please update the list as you see fit.

[DigoDragon]

I do agree, there are some similarities between the two wizards.

[Kaihaku]

I can at least correct my error...



Similarities...

Physically wimpy Wizard
Increasingly dark methods to obtain power
Hates being shown up or shown lacking
Great dry and shameless sense of humor
Arrogant
Non-caster parents
Red Robes.


And the differences...
V is an Elf
V is not cursed...yet
V has no specific gender
V has no interest in love (I was wrong.)
V is married.
Raistlin is a lot more creepy
V's arrogance isn't rooted in insecurity...it's not really rooted at all.

[DariusAPB]

Every time someone mentions that travesty of a movie i die a little inside....

I loved that trilogy (and the legends trilogy) so very much...

I think that in the core both are very similar, the differnce being largely that Raistlin pretty much worships the magic, V simply uses it to "tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up".

[Listior]

Hmm.... V has no overprotective twin brother. V isn't cursed with golden Skin (something Haley might experience once if they ever get their grip on the hand of Midas), he/she has no hourglaces for eyes and, though it may happen one day, as far as I know V never challenged a godess. But s/he defeated a dragon in face of having had the shape of a ant lion that time. Seems like that fairly equals them.

[Ilena]

just no offense but raist is much much cooler, i mean look at the stuff he did! He fought a goddess and won ....

[Kaihaku]

Hmm.... V has no overprotective twin brother.

True enough, I don't think V is secretly jealous of physical power either.


V isn't cursed with golden Skin (something Haley might experience once if they ever get their grip on the hand of Midas), he/she has no hourglaces for eyes...

Those fall under "V isn't cursed...yet." :smallwink:


...and, though it may happen one day, as far as I know V never challenged a godess. But s/he defeated a dragon in face of having had the shape of a ant lion that time. Seems like that fairly equals them.

:smalltongue:

[Querzis]

just no offense but raist is much much cooler, i mean look at the stuff he did! He fought a goddess and won ....

Now thats really annoying. V is just as badass as Raistlin and they are both the most badass wizards ever. Its just that V is curently still at the level of power of Red robe Raistlin but he actually really is supposed to obtain ultimate arcane power so he'll become just as powerfull as him! Hell, maybe he'll even get black robe when he gain ultimate arcane power.

Really, except for the fact that V aint as creepy (yet) aint cursed (yet), that V arrogance doesnt have any root (as far as we know) and that V is married and seems to love his mate, there is barely any difference between the two. The fact that V is an elf and is androgynous are just physical difference which arent really important as far as I'm concerned.

That being said, in the book we actually know what Raistlin is thinking and what are his motivation. V could have very different motivations from Raistlin as far as we know. You also forgot the most important difference as far as I'm concerned: V has friends who actually really like him while Raistlin got Caramon...and Caramon aint the kind of liking anyone would want, he was more acting like an overprotective mother then anything else.

[Tempest Fennac]

If Raistlin is a specialist, what is hea specialist in, and what are his barred schools? I'm curious about how he compares to V in that regard.

[Kish]

Dragonlance wizards don't function quite like Greyhawk/generic D&D wizards. Raistlin's schools were determined by his alignment, first as a Red Robe (Neutral) and then as a Black Robe (Evil).

[David Argall]

Good point. V is farily cold and non-understanding of romance.

See 223. V is described as highly understanding of romance. Certainly superior to most members of the party.

[Kaihaku]

You also forgot the most important difference as far as I'm concerned: V has friends who actually really like him while Raistlin got Caramon...and Caramon aint the kind of liking anyone would want, he was more acting like an overprotective mother then anything else.

Tanis tried. :smallfrown:

[Setra]

I am now trying to figure out what would happen if you took Raistlin from the start of the Dragonlance Trilogy (Dragons of Autumn Twilight) then switched him with V at the beginning of Origins.

That is to say V in the Dragonlance Party, and Raistlin in the Order of the Stick.

I'm curious as to how that would turn out.

Anyone else think Raistlin would have killed Elan?

[Kaihaku]

Raistlin probably would have liked Elan, who is a lot like a very charismatic gully dwarf. See: those who are weak and unpopular innately.

[Stormoverkrynn]

I am a major fan of Dragonlance. Raistlin is also one of my favorite characters, next to Tanis. I prefer the heros of the lance over most the other characters, but I have read atleast 50+ DL books. Raistlen was born with little to no magical talent. He was given his powers by one of the three gods of magic. Raistlen also started out as a Red robed wizard and became a wizard of Black robes. During Raistlin`s Test they let his own brother watch the test. During the test, Raistlin made a deal with Fistandantilus gaining even more power, and he killed his own brother. It was during the test that his body was weakened. Raistlin almost achieved godhood by nearly killing Takhisis, but was stopped and sealed in the abyss by his brother. Raistlin was then tortured daily in the Abyss for years till he was later freed and stripped of any and all of his magical power as punishment for challenging the gods.

Raistlin, I believe is on his own playing field though. V and Raistlin may share some of the same qualities as pointed out. But IMHO Raistlin was much more powerful than V.

[David Argall]

V and Raistlin may share some of the same qualities as pointed out. But IMHO Raistlin was much more powerful than V.
Raistlin starts out distinctly weaker than V and then gains lots of power. We in effect see more of his total career. Which brings up the possibility that V is now about the middle of Raistlin's career, and will follow the rest of it as well. Power level doesn't matter here. And many of the other offered differences seem to be little more than scenery. So there is good reason to worry about V's future.

[Enlong]

V was technically born to caster parents. Hir parents are Rangers.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

Good point. V is farily cold and non-understanding of romance. Perhaps an arranged marrage, to a (wo)man that V feels nothing big, one way or the other (neither love nor hate).
Perhaps his parents wanted grandkids and set V up to be married in hopes s(he) would stop being so singleminded toward arcane might.
No such luck.

Heh heh heh.....This would be totally in keeping with V's ambivalent gender-to be completely ambivalent about marriage/spouse...

[Charles Phipps]

The fact that one is ultimately cursed, while the other is just too intelligent for his own good seems to me a sufficient diversion. But on a more superficial side, I agree.

Being a Dragonlance fan, I can't honestly say which one is which.

:smallbiggrin:

[GSFB]

Raistlin Schmaistlin. V is turning into Willow. Evil veiny inhuman-eyed Willow who threatened to harm her best friends for getting in the way of her thirst for more magical power. Almost destroyed the Universe by getting in over her head Willow.

[Charles Phipps]

Raistlin Schmaistlin. V is turning into Willow. Evil veiny inhuman-eyed Willow who threatened to harm her best friends for getting in the way of her thirst for more magical power. Almost destroyed the Universe by getting in over her head Willow.

That's because Raistlin and Willow are not that far off as characters. Bookish nerds overshadowed by their more powerful close associates turn to magic as a way to compensate for serious emotional baggage. Raistlin just never got a musical and a hot girl except the one time he got amnesia about it (the hot girl, not the musical. Unless there's some Non-Main Dragonlance novels I need to buy).

*is pelted by fans of both series*

[Setra]

That's because Raistlin and Willow are not that far off as characters. Bookish nerds overshadowed by their more powerful close associates turn to magic as a way to compensate for serious emotional baggage. Raistlin just never got a musical and a hot girl except the one time he got amnesia about it (the hot girl, not the musical. Unless there's some Non-Main Dragonlance novels I need to buy).

*is pelted by fans of both series*
Wait, when did Raistlin get a hot girl?

Are you talking about the one who gave birth to Usha? I thought that was completely made up...

On another note I'm imagining Raistlin in a musical and my mind is fracturing.

Edit: On an unrelated note, I am trying to remember a specific Dragonlance book. It had this really awesome guy whom I believe was unrelated to the rest of the cast, and it took place in an alternate dimension and only Tas knew the truth... or something.

[Tempest Fennac]

How do Wizard specialisations work in Dragonlance exactly? It sounds like an interresting system.

[Nazrel]

V just needs a nap. A long nap, followed by a hot tub and some herbal tea, with some muzac in the background.

[Kaihaku]

Perhaps V's spouse, who I had forgotten existed, will show up to provide just that.

Or smack some sense into V.

[Desilva]

Perhaps V's spouse, who I had forgotten existed, will show up to provide just that.

Who will, unsurprisingly, not help solve the gender issue at all.

Also, I liked Raistlin a lot as a kid but a lot of his exploits are pretty clearly Deus Ex Machina'd in there to make him more appealing to teenraging emokids.

Like me, ten years ago.

I mean, his particular handicaps and all his emotional baggage make him an amazing character and I still love him for those, but I would much rather Weis and Hickman have done justice to his ascent to greatness by actually writing it.

If we, as readers, could have seen Raistlin constantly fighting not only the odds but also his frailty, and seen him growing ever greater and wiser and more powerful, and finally watched him beat Takhisis using ingenuity and resourcefulness, it would have been that much more epic. I would rather have been shown, not told, how he did all that he did. Then he would be worthy of his power.

[Kaihaku]

If we, as readers, could have seen Raistlin constantly fighting not only the odds but also his frailty, and seen him growing ever greater and wiser and more powerful, and finally watched him beat Takhisis using ingenuity and resourcefulness, it would have been that much more epic. I would rather have been shown, not told, how he did all that he did. Then he would be worthy of his power.

Yeah, well, imagine how his player felt being handed that much pre-written.

[SometimesKate]

Dragonlance: The Musical. Complete with main character kick-line. The mind wobbles.