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ken-do-nim
2008-10-01, 08:33 PM
So what do you think is the most underrated monster CR-wise? My vote is the Spell Weaver from MMII. Inexplicably listed at CR 10, this critter can cast as a sorcerer 12, fire multiple spells at a time, and has a few spell-like abilities to boot. I used one in a play-by-email game and it was plenty tough. I assigned it CR14 when all was said and done. Runner-up is the Malebranche devil from the same book. CR9 ... and yet it has 16 hit dice and is just really tough. CR12 at least.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-01, 08:37 PM
Three words:

That.
Damn.
Crab.

Don't MAKE me resurrect some threads.

BRC
2008-10-01, 08:39 PM
TDC
Hydras in general

In certain situations, Zombies,especially ones with the "unkillable" template from Libris Mortis (It gives them an additionalfew HP per HD, as well as Fast healing five. Considering how many HD a, for example, CR3 zombie has. It is a truely massive amount.
Albiet, this is negated by the fact that a zombie is incapable of doing anything to somebody armed with a glaive and enough room behind them
(Five foot step, attack. You arn't far enough away for the zombie to charge. Although this tactic is negated by walls)

Ponce
2008-10-01, 08:43 PM
Shadows and superior versions thereof.

The Vorpal Tribble
2008-10-01, 08:50 PM
From my personal experience, a Tsochar. It's a CR 4 and it almost took out eight CR 7 players.

4 tentacles, paralyzing poison, constrict, and can burrow right inside and take you over so they have to kill its host to get it out.

Teron
2008-10-01, 09:09 PM
The adamantine horror certainly ranks. The fact that there's only one in existence apparently justifies its ability to use disintegrate, implosion and Mordenkainen's goddamn disjunction at will at CR 9!

_Puppetmaster_
2008-10-01, 09:09 PM
Adamantine. Clockwork. Horror. :eek::smalleek:*Cringes and hides in a corner*


Mordrenkanens's Dinsunction at will for CR 11 9??!!! Youve got to be kidding me!

EDIT: Ninja'd! ...Still...:eek::smalleek:

Eldariel
2008-10-01, 09:11 PM
Three words:

That.
Damn.
Crab.

Don't MAKE me resurrect some threads.

This. It's supposed to be a tough fight for 4 level 1 characters, but it's a TPK on legs for those. It's supposed to be 25%-dailies for 4 level 3 characters. It's a kill-two for those.

Also, older Dragons. And Fleshrakers. Beholders and breathing Hydras can be problematic too - they're squishy, but they pack the firepower of a small army (imagine a Beholder getting a surprise round with all it's eye stalks directed at the party, or a cryohydra getting the drop on the party and opening up with full breath).

Then there's that whatever high CR ethereal cloud thing that's almost impossible to detect, has 24d8 thunderclap to open up with and some 1000 HP. CR 16s. But yea, the party pretty much opens up by taking 24d8 points of damage (an average of 108 points) and then roll for initiative.

Then there's that one CR 8 incorporeal thingy that tosses greater darkness, grapples you (as a touch, obv) with insane initiative and rips you apart through your armor. I think it was in BoVD or something.

Nohwl
2008-10-01, 09:14 PM
can you use their actual names? i know what zombies are and what hydras are, but ive got no clue what creature that damn crab refers to.

UglyPanda
2008-10-01, 09:14 PM
The CR 2 Fleshraker Dinosaur should get a mention. On a charge, it can hit you up to four times. Plus it can poison, trip, and grapple you in that order. What makes it worse is that it's a possible animal companion.

Of course, That Damn Crab and all its permutations is probably the worst. For the uninitiated, here's the permutations: link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301)

BRC
2008-10-01, 09:16 PM
can you use their actual names? i know what zombies are and what hydras are, but ive got no clue what creature that damn crab refers to.
SHHHH, you don't speak it's name. It's like saying the name of the Scottish Play in a theatre. According to legend, if you say it's true name, your DM uses it against you next session. :smalleek:
@V ah well, you said it. I reccomend you buy some verminbane arrows.

Eldariel
2008-10-01, 09:16 PM
Monstrous Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

As for the other two creatures, I can't remember and can't even remember the books they're from for sure - am hoping someone else recognizes them (I was a player when we met those, their name was hardly the first thing in my mind - not getting TPKd took priority).

Nohwl
2008-10-01, 09:24 PM
According to legend, if you say it's true name, your DM uses it against you next session. :smalleek:


im the dm. there are 7 of them and they are level 2. hmm...

Hal
2008-10-01, 09:34 PM
Anything with DR/anything but magic until you get to mid levels.

BRC
2008-10-01, 09:35 PM
Anything with DR/anything but magic until you get to mid levels.
Yeah, I know my group has never spent money on Cold Iron and Silver weapons Just in case.

AstralFire
2008-10-01, 09:39 PM
I've always been of the opinion that special material/alignment damage reduction should be reserved for campaigns where you get MacGuffin (or at the very least Plot Token) weapons. Can't fight those Succubi? Well, NOW YOU'RE PACKING HEAT! And the Master Sword! Whooo!

Makes those weapons actually feel special instead of the golf club bag effect, which is the only way I ever really see those DRs get handled.

Jack Zander
2008-10-01, 09:39 PM
The monstrous crab is only tough if the DM plays it wrong. They are suppose to only grab two characters then flee with them (one in each claw), but most people forget that grappling with one hand gives you a -20 penalty to the grapple check.

Thurbane
2008-10-01, 09:46 PM
Ogres can often be quite lethal to an unprepared 3rd level party.

Eldariel
2008-10-01, 09:54 PM
Ogres can often be quite lethal to an unprepared 3rd level party.

Those are usually tough for a party without Wizards. However, any of the list:
-Color Spray
-Sleep
-Glitterdust
-Grease
-Web (the usual spells a Wizard on these levels should be preparing)

cramps their style pretty big. Druids and Clerics are slightly less effective, but they still pack Entangle, Command (command it to drop Prone) and Cause Fear to drop their numbers. In fact, most 'brutes' tend to be very easy to bring down through Magic (especially if they're packed - one Glitterdust can knock the whole bunch of 'em blind) - That Damn Crab sidesteps this by being a Vermin and immune to most mind-affecting things and having a decent Ref-save.

sonofzeal
2008-10-01, 09:55 PM
From my personal experience, a Tsochar. It's a CR 4 and it almost took out eight CR 7 players.

4 tentacles, paralyzing poison, constrict, and can burrow right inside and take you over so they have to kill its host to get it out.
I'll second that nomination. Thoroughly nasty buggers, almost impossible to kill and more than lethal enough in the mean time, even without bodystealing. It's right up there in TDC territory, really.

Rakshasa, TDC, Marulurks, and Maugs also deserve a mention to various amounts.

AstralFire
2008-10-01, 09:57 PM
Eldariel is like a stealthy, radar-absorbing heat seeking cruise missile of optimization.

You scroll quickly down the page, not realizing someone new posted due to the lack of avatar - and then SPLOOOOOSH. Information bomb, right in the cranial cortex.

Eldariel
2008-10-01, 10:08 PM
You know Astral, I'm fervently against ego sigs. And yet, I'm almost, almost willing to give way in the principle just so I could immortalize that. I thank Thee; the words are strong in you. Although I may yet have to change the "no avatar"-part...

JaxGaret
2008-10-01, 10:10 PM
Tucker's Kobolds

/thread

:smallsmile:

Eldariel
2008-10-01, 10:14 PM
Tucker's Kobolds

/thread

:smallsmile:

I thought their CR was higher than numeric notation can show...

BRC
2008-10-01, 10:19 PM
I thought their CR was higher than numeric notation can show...

CR is, in general, a horrible representation of the difficulty of an encounter. I'm sure it's fine if everything takes place on an infinite flat featureless plane, but things don't.

For example, A group of 4 1st level rangers with longbows, dosn't seem that tough (The SRD isn't working for me right now), but if those rangers ambush the PC's who are out in the open while they hide behind rocks a hundred and fifty feet away (If i remember correctly, thats within one range increment for a longbow), that is a very difficult encounter.

drengnikrafe
2008-10-01, 10:28 PM
If I remember correctly, the Iron Colosses (sp?) has a DR 50ish, magic resistance, no weak spots, and thousands of health. It's a little overpowered for it's CR (which is 20ish, but still...).

Also, Beholders. It's not nice to make PCs make 2 save or dies a round, and then prevent them from using magic.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-01, 10:32 PM
Keep in mind that monsters in the MM2 and Fiend Folio of CR 5+ were designed to go against a party with 3.0 Haste. The entire party can cast two spells/round, so the monster has to be able to compete with that.


A Boneclaw (MM3) is unbelievably deadly, especially in the right/wrong situation depending on your perspective.

Many advanced versions of monsters are unbelievably difficult for their CRs. A 22 HD Boneclaw would only be CR 8, and would get an extra +6 to hit, over twice the HP, impossible to turn, and can have feats like Large and In Charge (DCN) and Awesome Blow. Put it in difficult terrain (atop a hill of bones?) in a room where it can reach everyone who would have LoS to it and nobody at that level could defeat it.

Ibrandlin from Monsters of Faerun is a 10 HD Gargantuan Dragon at CR 5. Without using its Power Attack feat it gets Bite +18 (4d6+12) and 4 Claws +13 (2d8+6), or once every 5 rounds 4 Claws +18 (2d8+12) and a 30' cone of fire breath attack for 2d6 damage as a single full attack. The reason it swings with all four claws is because it rears up on its tail. It can also pin as many medium or smaller opponents as can fit in its space by jumping onto them as a standard action, they have to make a DC 21 Reflex save or be considered both grappled and pinned, they automatically take 4d6 damage in any round that they try to escape or fight (it gets +34 grapple) but don't take damage if they just lie still and be pinned. It has a Climb speed and +22 jump so it's sure to start the encounter by pinning as many as it can. It can use a bite and two claws each round against anyone not pinned, then get up and either finish off or re-pin everyone who's left. At CR 5 that's just too cruel to use.


TDC isn't a difficult opponent at all. A level 20 Charger Gish build with Superior Invisibility (SC), Quickened True Strike, and Persistent Wraithstrike should be able to take it out in a single hit. He'll use Moment of Prescience to win initiative, and it can't AoO due to invisibility. Its touch AC is only 48, he'll get +16 BAB (Shock Trooper), +20 True Strike, +5 Enhancement (GMW), +2 charging, plus his Str bonus. He can have an ally nearby with the Destiny domain (RoD) in case he rolls a 1.

UglyPanda
2008-10-01, 10:36 PM
If I remember correctly, the Iron Colosses (sp?) has a DR 50ish, magic resistance, no weak spots, and thousands of health. It's a little overpowered for it's CR (which is 20ish, but still...).

...stuff

Colossi were in the Epic Level Handbook. They had DR of at least 30/+6, and were all at over CR 23. Epic Level Handbook is 3.0, which had insanely high DR monsters for some reason. In 3.5, the Colossi have been toned down in the DR department.

Eldariel
2008-10-01, 10:37 PM
CR is, in general, a horrible representation of the difficulty of an encounter. I'm sure it's fine if everything takes place on an infinite flat featureless plane, but things don't.

For example, A group of 4 1st level rangers with longbows, dosn't seem that tough (The SRD isn't working for me right now), but if those rangers ambush the PC's who are out in the open while they hide behind rocks a hundred and fifty feet away (If i remember correctly, thats within one range increment for a longbow), that is a very difficult encounter.

Oh, definitely. CR even notes you should adjust the CR according to the circumstances (hence my statement about Tucker's Kobolds - Kobolds have pitiful CRs, but Tucker's Kobolds generate circumstances that have infinite modifiers). Your example is CR 3-5 though, so that explains why it's tough.

Let's go a level further - four Elf Warriors with Longbows each around the PCs simultaneously open fire. They're in the 4 cardinal directions from the party behind a variety of obstacles, 100' away each. Now, unless the party has 4 melee types, they can't actually approach all the attackers at once, meaning that while one of them runs, the others bombard the character giving chase (one increment away still gives them reasonable chance to hit ACs around 16-18, which is what most level 1 characters probably have vs. level 1 Elf Warrior has +4 to ranged attacks with rational stat spread (max Dex, secondary Str, tertiary Con) and their standard feat).

Due to the obstacles, it's almost impossible for the PCs to effectively trade shots with the Elves, especially since as they're being attacked from 4 directions, it's going to be nigh' impossible to find comparative protection for the ranged combat. Also, since the terrain has obstacles, running to get to the elves is almost impossible meaning the PCs will have to be taking double moves, and can't probably Charge either. If the Elves are hellbent on it, they can destroy the whole party no problem. While it's possible for the party to perhaps spot them before the combat begins and thus avoid the disaster by only fighting against opponents in the three cardinal directions (provided that there's nothing blocking the LoS entirely - at least the one circling to their back should be noticable), there're still hefty range penalties on the Spot- and Listen-checks (a Druid could do it with luck - a party without a Druid is pretty effed). But yea, this is an example of circumstances increasing the CR notably.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-01, 10:41 PM
TDC isn't a difficult opponent at all. A level 20 Charger Gish build with Superior Invisibility (SC), Quickened True Strike, and Persistent Wraithstrike should be able to take it out in a single hit. He'll use Moment of Prescience to win initiative, and it can't AoO due to invisibility. Its touch AC is only 48, he'll get +16 BAB (Shock Trooper), +20 True Strike, +5 Enhancement (GMW), +2 charging, plus his Str bonus. He can have an ally nearby with the Destiny domain (RoD) in case he rolls a 1.

Not PPDC or DPPDC, but the original TDC, as here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) or in Stormwrack.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-01, 10:41 PM
TDC isn't a difficult opponent at all. A level 20 Charger Gish build with Superior Invisibility (SC), Quickened True Strike, and Persistent Wraithstrike should be able to take it out in a single hit. He'll use Moment of Prescience to win initiative, and it can't AoO due to invisibility. Its touch AC is only 48, he'll get +16 BAB (Shock Trooper), +20 True Strike, +5 Enhancement (GMW), +2 charging, plus his Str bonus. He can have an ally nearby with the Destiny domain (RoD) in case he rolls a 1.TDC is generally talked about as the CR3 version, especially here.

DrizztFan24
2008-10-01, 10:52 PM
That gargoyle in ToH. Gygax....the fiend.

Fishy
2008-10-01, 10:53 PM
TDC isn't a difficult opponent at all. A level 20 Charger Gish build with Superior Invisibility (SC), Quickened True Strike, and Persistent Wraithstrike should be able to take it out in a single hit. He'll use Moment of Prescience to win initiative, and it can't AoO due to invisibility. Its touch AC is only 48, he'll get +16 BAB (Shock Trooper), +20 True Strike, +5 Enhancement (GMW), +2 charging, plus his Str bonus. He can have an ally nearby with the Destiny domain (RoD) in case he rolls a 1.

... I hope you're kidding. My sarcasm detector is off.

ken-do-nim
2008-10-01, 11:17 PM
From my personal experience, a Tsochar. It's a CR 4 and it almost took out eight CR 7 players.

4 tentacles, paralyzing poison, constrict, and can burrow right inside and take you over so they have to kill its host to get it out.

Sounds like a good one. What book?

Draken
2008-10-01, 11:31 PM
Lords of Madness. The Tsochar have an entire chapter dedicated to them.

Nice creatures there.

Chronos
2008-10-01, 11:45 PM
Another nice one: A kobold with NPC class levels has a CR equal to its level -3. So a 4th-level kobold adept is CR 1. Even with only the Standard Array, it could easily have 14 in both Dex and Wis (Wis = 13 base +1 levelling, Dex = 12 base +2 racial), meaning it's got a 2nd-level spell, and it's likely to win initiative or even get a surprise round (14 Dex and small size makes for a decent untrained Hide check at that level, and it's also got Darkvision). Lead off with Web and nothing can hurt it, and then follow up with Burning Hands and everyone takes 5d4 damage with a steep penalty to the save. It's a likely TPK even for 2nd level parties.

ZeroSpace9000
2008-10-01, 11:49 PM
Um, how come no-ones mentioned Allips yet? CR 3ish, incorporeal, undead type, AND wisdom DRAIN, all in one. If you don't have a cleric, it makes you it's female dog.

GrassyGnoll
2008-10-02, 01:05 AM
Another nice one: A kobold with NPC class levels has a CR equal to its level -3. So a 4th-level kobold adept is CR 1. Even with only the Standard Array, it could easily have 14 in both Dex and Wis (Wis = 13 base +1 levelling, Dex = 12 base +2 racial), meaning it's got a 2nd-level spell, and it's likely to win initiative or even get a surprise round (14 Dex and small size makes for a decent untrained Hide check at that level, and it's also got Darkvision). Lead off with Web and nothing can hurt it, and then follow up with Burning Hands and everyone takes 5d4 damage with a steep penalty to the save. It's a likely TPK even for 2nd level parties.

Y'know, I never figured kobolds would make it into this thread (barring Pun Pun).

JaxGaret
2008-10-02, 01:07 AM
Y'know, I never figured kobolds would make it into this thread (barring Pun Pun).

They already made it on page 1. :smallsmile:

BobVosh
2008-10-02, 02:06 AM
Why are kobolds so ungodly good?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-02, 02:07 AM
Ok, so the first link I went to was the PPTDC, which is what I was referring to. The CR3 TDC can be Glitterdusted or Ego Whipped, but it is indeed unbelievably dangerous for its CR.

A guy I used to take turns with DMing had a slight obsession with Kobold Vampires with nothing but NPC classes.

Steel Dragons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) are too powerful for their CR, especially at Adult: CR 8, 19 HD, 5th level spells, unbeatable SR vs arcane and only a 15% chance for divine spells to get past it, and a breath weapon for 6d6 in an 80' line or 6 con damage in a 40' cone. It takes Multiattack and Power Attack and it can take a -10 and still never miss on all six attacks. And what's up with Very Young and Young being at the same CR? I think all the CRs from Young through Great Wyrm should be suffled down and Great Wyrm given a 21 or so, because there's no way that's right.

RTGoodman
2008-10-02, 02:11 AM
The monstrous crab is only tough if the DM plays it wrong. They are suppose to only grab two characters then flee with them (one in each claw), but most people forget that grappling with one hand gives you a -20 penalty to the grapple check.

TDC has a +10 to hit, and if it hits with that (very likely, even against level 3 parties) it gets a grapple check (at +19) to deal 2d8+18 damage in the first round (including the auto-constrict), to a single character. That'll definitely kill a 1st-level character and almost certainly kill all but the toughest 2nd-level characters, and a lot of squishier 3rd-level characters. On a full attack it gets two of these attacks, and even though it takes a penalty to grapple two creatures at once, it still has a decent shot to hold both if one of them is a lower-strength character. Also, it's immune to a lot of low-level "Win" spells, since it's immune to all mind-affecting stuff, and it has really good HP and decent saves for being a big brute-type monster.

Even if a DM plays TDC "right," it's exceptionally deadly for it's CR. Even if it can't escape to flee with a character or two, it's gonna probably drop a PC per turn.

RebelRogue
2008-10-02, 05:07 AM
Um, how come no-ones mentioned Allips yet? CR 3ish, incorporeal, undead type, AND wisdom DRAIN, all in one. If you don't have a cleric, it makes you it's female dog.
I remember playtesting an adventure for a friend of a friend which had overall overpowered encounters (including lots of undead doing ability drain. With a designated PC level of 6 and no NPCs around for miles and miles that's pretty hard to counter!) Anyway we faced a freaking advanced allip there. My Wis 19 cleric went to a screaming toddler of Wis 2 within a few rounds! Let's just say we had a lot of suggestions for changes after that playtest!

Saph
2008-10-02, 06:22 AM
If we're sticking to core, probably Dread Wraiths.

If you're fighting them indoors in an underground setting (and you will be) even targeting them is almost impossible, and they're immune or 50% resistant to just about everything. One CR 11 dread wraith can TPK a level 10-12 party if played smart.

(We're currently fighting a war against a dread wraith army in our WLD game. Luckily, we've got some allies.)

- Saph

Kaiyanwang
2008-10-02, 06:39 AM
Tsuno, from OA.

DigoDragon
2008-10-02, 07:16 AM
Why are kobolds so ungodly good?

Because they're pocket dragons. :smallbiggrin: Take a few kobolds and apply the web enhancements from the Wizard's site plus a few feats out of "Races of the Dragon" (Like Dragonwrought and Wings) and you got some nasty little buggers.

Tsochars and that Adamantine Clockwork Horror get my vote for 2nd and 3rd nastiest critter. :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2008-10-02, 07:45 AM
Because they're pocket dragons. :smallbiggrin: Take a few kobolds and apply the web enhancements from the Wizard's site plus a few feats out of "Races of the Dragon" (Like Dragonwrought and Wings) and you got some nasty little buggers.

Tsochars and that Adamantine Clockwork Horror get my vote for 2nd and 3rd nastiest critter. :smallsmile:

The old "Theorethical Optimization"-mantra is that "like always, Kobolds do it better". It took place after Pun-Pun was created.

kjones
2008-10-02, 07:54 AM
The Alchemical Golem from MM3 is pretty nasty - the combined DR and Fort Save breath weapon that deals Con damage can be a real killer. I toned it down a bit (made it Medium, removed Full Attack, dropped AC and AB a bit) and it still almost took out a party of 5 level 8 characters.

Telonius
2008-10-02, 08:23 AM
imagine ... cryohydra getting the drop on the party and opening up with full breath.

I don't have to imagine. Thank God it was the Rogue who walked down the hallway first. Yay for Evasion!

jcsw
2008-10-02, 08:28 AM
A ghost kobold played by an smart DM. (Kobold just to get the CR down... heh)

AstralFire
2008-10-02, 09:02 AM
I don't have to imagine. Thank God it was the Rogue who walked down the hallway first. Yay for Evasion!

Pyrohydra and you've got what happened to me in my first campaign ever.

That and the rogue got bitten to death immediately thereafter anyway.

Hal
2008-10-02, 11:29 AM
I've always been of the opinion that special material/alignment damage reduction should be reserved for campaigns where you get MacGuffin (or at the very least Plot Token) weapons. Can't fight those Succubi? Well, NOW YOU'RE PACKING HEAT! And the Master Sword! Whooo!

Makes those weapons actually feel special instead of the golf club bag effect, which is the only way I ever really see those DRs get handled.

That's all well and good, but there's some low-level stuff with DR/- that is almost impossible for low-level parties to fight off.

I don't know the MM, but our DM threw some mechanical viper things at our party once. CR2, DR 5/-. Since they were constructs, they took only half damage to elemental damage. The two rogues, wielding short swords, couldn't even ding it. The cleric mainly sat back and tried to heal the damage these things were tossing out. The sorceror tried in vain to blast the things, but, again, was barely slowing them down. I played a Duskblade, and I was the only one doing reasonable levels of damage, but even then it was a long grind to bust the things.

Teron
2008-10-02, 12:06 PM
Since they were constructs, they took only half damage to elemental damage.
That's not in the rules. Either it's a property of the creature, or your DM was making stuff up.

Vva70
2008-10-02, 01:05 PM
How about wights? CR 3, which means that a level 1 party should conceivably be able to fight them, but the energy drain attack is a 1-hit-no-save kill at that point. And it only needs to get 2 hits at level 2.

chevalier
2008-10-02, 01:29 PM
EDITED: Ninja'ed on the TDC comments.

arguskos
2008-10-02, 02:35 PM
Can't believe no has mentioned the Voor yugoloth, from MM4. It's CR 4, with multiple tentacle attacks that deal something like 2d10+6 from 15 feet away. It has enough ranks in climb to hang on the celling and never fall, while dealing massive damage to the party. >_< I've TPK'd three groups of levels 4, 6 and 7 with one or two of those.

Also, I'll second TDC and the Tsochar. Damned Crab.... *sigh*

-argus

Starbuck_II
2008-10-02, 02:40 PM
That's all well and good, but there's some low-level stuff with DR/- that is almost impossible for low-level parties to fight off.

I don't know the MM, but our DM threw some mechanical viper things at our party once. CR2, DR 5/-. Since they were constructs, they took only half damage to elemental damage. The two rogues, wielding short swords, couldn't even ding it. The cleric mainly sat back and tried to heal the damage these things were tossing out. The sorceror tried in vain to blast the things, but, again, was barely slowing them down. I played a Duskblade, and I was the only one doing reasonable levels of damage, but even then it was a long grind to bust the things.

Only Animated Objectds take 1/2 fire/electric or 1/3 (cold) elemental damage because they retain their object abilities. Constructs do not.

kbk
2008-10-02, 02:57 PM
Shocker lizards, and any dragon.

Leicontis
2008-10-02, 03:23 PM
Astral Stalker (MMIII, IIRC) (yay capslock) - CR 11, and was a difficult and interesting fight against a 13th-level party that was routinely butchering CR 14+ baddies. Intelligence, high AC and ATB, See Invisibility naturally (the party's sorceress loved her Greater Invis...), a ranged attack with paralyzing poison (goodnight arcane casters), and camouflage and a climb speed (for ambushes).

wadledo
2008-10-02, 03:28 PM
Steel Dragons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) are too powerful for their CR, especially at Adult: CR 8, 19 HD, 5th level spells, unbeatable SR vs arcane and only a 15% chance for divine spells to get past it, and a breath weapon for 6d6 in an 80' line or 6 con damage in a 40' cone. It takes Multiattack and Power Attack and it can take a -10 and still never miss on all six attacks. And what's up with Very Young and Young being at the same CR? I think all the CRs from Young through Great Wyrm should be suffled down and Great Wyrm given a 21 or so, because there's no way that's right.And can ya' believe I'm playin' one?:smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-02, 03:33 PM
And can ya' believe I'm playin' one?:smallbiggrin:Epic, I assume? Or does it have no LA?

wadledo
2008-10-02, 04:00 PM
Plug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88424).
Also, it's a 4th level modern d20 campaign, so I'm not the oddest thing around.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-02, 04:46 PM
Shocker lizards, and any dragon.

Did you just say Shocker lizards? What!

Riffington
2008-10-02, 08:05 PM
Did you just say Shocker lizards? What!

I assume he means in large quantities. They can do damage without having to get particularly close (or even hit).

Ricky S
2008-10-02, 08:21 PM
Nastiest monster in the game... well it wasnt so mucha monster as my friends character. A human crusader who managed to take on an enemy 3 levels higher than him and only didnt kill him cause my DM made the enemy run away. More seriously the Tarrasque... or Time Dragon seriously they are 2 nasty monsters!

Irreverent Fool
2008-10-02, 08:39 PM
How about wights? CR 3, which means that a level 1 party should conceivably be able to fight them, but the energy drain attack is a 1-hit-no-save kill at that point. And it only needs to get 2 hits at level 2.

Wights are bad, but there are far nastier things. I actually used a few wights in the early bits of a campaign. The party was ECL 2-3. While the energy drain is nasty, the save to recover from it isn't so bad and it's a nice introduction to horrible undead creatures at the level. Of course... they like to sneak up on people. The party learned spot and listen are good skills to have.

I agree that using one as a climactic encounter for a level 1 party would be particularly nasty as someone is almost guaranteed to die.

Eldariel
2008-10-02, 08:54 PM
More seriously the Tarrasque...

Can't say I agree with you there. The thing can't even fly for god's sake, let alone teleport, go ethereal, use magic or even have a ranged attack. An Allip is enough to render it into a comatose permanently. Older Dragons and outsiders (Balors, Pit Fiends, et co.) are far more dangerous than the Tarrasque could ever be.

It's tough to kill, sure, but it's like a game of kick the ouphe - you aren't in any danger while trying to come up with some way to cause permanent damage to the thing. And this is without even mentioning the fact that it's dumb as a boot - about as capable of tactical thinking as Godzilla, further dropping its danger level by tons. Also, stealing its body with Mind Switch is quite easy and makes you nigh' immortal in the process (since you retain your own mental qualities, giving you insane physical and mental abilities - full magic with one of the most intimidating physical presences in the game).

Riffington
2008-10-02, 08:59 PM
An imp with a ranged weapon can slaughter a party in the wilderness.
*fly + ranged weapon = hard to hurt.
*DR5 and fire resistance = even harder to hurt.
*Invisibility at will + Fast Healing 2 = have to kill in one round or it can just turn invisible, fly 50', and come back when it pleases.

Add in the ability to follow tracks, the great senses, the Suggestion, and the poison... a low level party's best bet might be bribery.
And it's CR2.

Idea Man
2008-10-02, 09:31 PM
An ibrandlin is an honorable mention. CR 5, 10 HD fire dragon, but it is gargantuan and has a special grapple/pin attack. Melee damage is fair, breath weapon is a joke, but gargantuan grapple (not to mention reach) is a huge advantage against 5th level characters! As far as having a group of third level characters taking one on, well, [B]I/B] wouldn't. :smallwink:

kbk
2008-10-02, 09:52 PM
I assume he means in large quantities. They can do damage without having to get particularly close (or even hit).

Exactly.

Remember the OP said for its CR. 20' radius from one of the lizards, every round:

2 Shocker lizards can do 4d8 to the entire party every round, DC 12 for half (CR 3)
4 Shocker lizards can do 8d8 to the entire party every round. DC 14 for half (CR 5)
6 Shocker Lizards can do 12d8 to the entire party every round. DC 16 for half (CR 7).
Admittedly, it tops off there, but nothing says multiple packs can't do separate pulses. I've seen enough shocker lizards take out a level 10 party in 2 rounds. My players have nightmares about running into 12 or more of these bad guys.

Rei_Jin
2008-10-02, 09:57 PM
Shocker Lizards are awesome.

I ambushed a party in the swamps once, with Shocker Lizards riding on a Tendriculos.

I'd tell you why, but it's more fun for people to look it up and groan.

NEO|Phyte
2008-10-02, 11:16 PM
Shocker Lizards are awesome.

I ambushed a party in the swamps once, with Shocker Lizards riding on a Tendriculos.

I'd tell you why, but it's more fun for people to look it up and groan.

Uh, maybe I'm overlooking something important, but might you in fact mean a Shambling Mound?

Rei_Jin
2008-10-02, 11:22 PM
Uh, maybe I'm overlooking something important, but might you in fact mean a Shambling Mound?

You... would be correct. Trust me to forget exactly which one it was, stupid plants and their abnormal abilities...

Nice catch by the way.

Adumbration
2008-10-02, 11:23 PM
Storm elementals can be pretty bad, especially if the party lacks ranged weapons.

ken-do-nim
2008-10-02, 11:28 PM
Can't believe no has mentioned the Voor yugoloth, from MM4. It's CR 4, with multiple tentacle attacks that deal something like 2d10+6 from 15 feet away. It has enough ranks in climb to hang on the celling and never fall, while dealing massive damage to the party. >_< I've TPK'd three groups of levels 4, 6 and 7 with one or two of those.

Also, I'll second TDC and the Tsochar. Damned Crab.... *sigh*

-argus

Oh wow, somebody actually bought that book? ;-) (I stopped at MMIII)

Somebody once half-joked that in order to get the correct CR of a monster, you add the monster volume minus one to the listed CR.

sonofzeal
2008-10-02, 11:33 PM
You... would be correct. Trust me to forget exactly which one it was, stupid plants and their abnormal abilities...

Nice catch by the way.

......oh dear lord.

I think I'll hide now.... :smalleek:

monty
2008-10-02, 11:43 PM
Bah, still has a pitiful will save. Just hit it with a save-or-lose.

RTGoodman
2008-10-03, 01:10 AM
Somebody once half-joked that in order to get the correct CR of a monster, you add the monster volume minus one to the listed CR.

You know, I'll have to go back through MMIII and check out MMIV and V, but for a lot of creatures that does sound about right. The only axiom I know of about the Monster Manuals is that they're sort of like the Star Trek movies - only the odd-numbered ones are worth it.

sonofzeal
2008-10-03, 01:12 AM
You know, I'll have to go back through MMIII and check out MMIV and V, but for a lot of creatures that does sound about right. The only axiom I know of about the Monster Manuals is that they're sort of like the Star Trek movies - only the odd-numbered ones are worth it.
Certainly true for 1 and 3 over 2 and 4. Not sure about 5, no experience.

NeoVid
2008-10-03, 02:08 AM
Why, the Ikea Tarrasque! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20160&highlight=ikea)

Worth seeing for the unspeakable munchkin-squishing capability.

Ascension
2008-10-03, 05:26 AM
Certainly true for 1 and 3 over 2 and 4. Not sure about 5, no experience.

MMV is my favorite. Lots of fun stuff in there. Including some nice monsters-that-are-walking-plot-hooks. I want to run an entire game in Dalmosh's Gullet sometime. It's a pocket dimension within the belly of a giant creature from the Abyss who exists to eat anything and everything he can lay hands on, and enough of his victims have chosen the Gullet over death to support a small civilization. The only problem is he really isn't big enough to be as threatening as he should be, since he's only Gargantuan and he can only swallow Large or smaller things... but that's nothing you couldn't fix yourself.

afroakuma
2008-10-03, 06:57 AM
I never understand the hate MMII gets. It's not the best of them by any means, but it has gem dragons, phoenixes, the hellfire wyrm, crimson death, and classic monsters:

fihyr, death knight, firbolgs and fomorians, galeb duhr, jermlaine, neogi, sylph

and it also updated yugoloths, celestials, demons and devils.

More importantly, it didn't devote several pages to a new kind of mind flayer, or to statted out humanoids with levels for the lazy.

RebelRogue
2008-10-03, 07:26 AM
But it's also got Ragamoffyns :smalleek:

:smallbiggrin:

kbk
2008-10-03, 07:48 AM
Shocker Lizards are awesome.

I ambushed a party in the swamps once, with Shocker Lizards riding on a Tendriculos.

I'd tell you why, but it's more fun for people to look it up and groan.

You know, I've designed the exact same encounter (With, shambling mounds, as you meant). This makes a particularly nasty encounter for low levels. Especially when the lizards have a good hide, and the party can't figure out why the mounds are growing.

Ascension
2008-10-03, 08:03 AM
More importantly, it didn't devote several pages to a new kind of mind flayer, or to statted out humanoids with levels for the lazy.

The humanoids-with-levels are stupid, but I like that new kind of mind flayer. It's got nice flavor.

afroakuma
2008-10-03, 08:19 AM
The annoying thing about the humanoids-with-levels is that a) they didn't need to be fully statted and b) that they were in two books, back to back.

Yes, the Thoon flavor was interesting, but it could have been summed up more rapidly, or in a different way. I felt like I was getting a large article out of Dragon magazine, not Monster Manual content.

Xorvintaal dragons had the same problem. The adaptations that make them a scarier combat encounter are cool. The fluff about a world-spanning board game, the exarchs etc. I could have done without. Again, it felt like an article.

ken-do-nim
2008-10-03, 08:51 AM
I never understand the hate MMII gets. It's not the best of them by any means, but it has gem dragons, phoenixes, the hellfire wyrm, crimson death, and classic monsters:

fihyr, death knight, firbolgs and fomorians, galeb duhr, jermlaine, neogi, sylph

and it also updated yugoloths, celestials, demons and devils.

More importantly, it didn't devote several pages to a new kind of mind flayer, or to statted out humanoids with levels for the lazy.

I never understood it either. The spell weaver I mentioned in the first post - while the challenge rating is obviously wrong - is still a great, great monster.

Of course the best monster that I've run across for 3.5 is the Red Jester from the Tome of Horrors 2. The Tome of Horrors series is very high quality; I'm surprised it isn't as ubiquitous as the WOTC Monster Manual series. Note that the CRs in the Tome of Horrors series are much more reasonable, some even to the point of being too high. While I'm pluggin Necromancer Games, I'd also add that their book of new spells - I forget the name - I think is way better than the Spell Compendium. All the spells are well-balanced, compared to some of the nightmares in the SC.

monty
2008-10-03, 09:59 AM
The only axiom I know of about the Monster Manuals is that they're sort of like the Star Trek movies - only the odd-numbered ones are worth it.

I never really understood the Star Trek rule; personally, I liked all the movies and IV was my favorite. Maybe I'm just weird like that.

ken-do-nim
2008-10-03, 11:24 AM
I never really understood the Star Trek rule; personally, I liked all the movies and IV was my favorite. Maybe I'm just weird like that.

For the Star Trek rule, it's only the even-numbered ones are worth it. Except 10, which was HORRIBLE. And I also liked 3 and 1 isn't as bad as people say.

Larrin
2008-10-03, 01:40 PM
For the Star Trek rule, it's only the even-numbered ones are worth it. Except 10, which was HORRIBLE. And I also liked 3 and 1 isn't as bad as people say.

This is 100% true.

On topic: Shocker lizards were easily my worst experience in 3.0. I believe the DM choses them more or less at random without reading their power, so he just threw the full CR budgets worth at us, which was well over 10, possible 20. He then laughed and said "oh wow, everyone make a reflex save vs REALLY HIGH" and rolled 10-20 dice for damage. I was the only one conscious afterwards, and being a rogue with no healing anything, i didn't stick around for round two.

That session was, unfortunately, one long PC hunt, wether the DM meant it to be or not.

edit: Looking at their CR of 2 i don't see how we saw so many of them...maybe it was lower in 3.0...(?)

Epinephrine
2008-10-03, 02:33 PM
An imp with a ranged weapon can slaughter a party in the wilderness.
*fly + ranged weapon = hard to hurt.
*DR5 and fire resistance = even harder to hurt.
*Invisibility at will + Fast Healing 2 = have to kill in one round or it can just turn invisible, fly 50', and come back when it pleases.

Add in the ability to follow tracks, the great senses, the Suggestion, and the poison... a low level party's best bet might be bribery.
And it's CR2.

Yes, our 2nd level party has discovered that a Quasit is behind the problems in town. DR, flight, invisibility, fast healing... this is not good. I think they're pretty tough for their CR.

sonofzeal
2008-10-03, 02:42 PM
I never understand the hate MMII gets. It's not the best of them by any means, but it has gem dragons, phoenixes, the hellfire wyrm, crimson death, and classic monsters:

fihyr, death knight, firbolgs and fomorians, galeb duhr, jermlaine, neogi, sylph

and it also updated yugoloths, celestials, demons and devils.

More importantly, it didn't devote several pages to a new kind of mind flayer, or to statted out humanoids with levels for the lazy.
I don't hate #2, I just never got nearly the mileage out of it that I got out of MM1 and MM3. A number of the monsters were interesting, but when I think back I can't really come up with anything that had any particular traction (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060106a)with me, unlike any of the other monster books I've read. Personally, I'd rate Fiend Folio (which got traction with me in the form of Shadar-Kai, Maugs, Mongrelfolk, and Kaorti) and MM3 (Kenku, Poison Dusk Lizardfolk, Shifters, Warforged, War Trolls, and Voidmind) higher, but that's obviously a very personal opinion.

Cuddly
2008-10-03, 06:54 PM
Three words:

That.
Damn.
Crab.

Don't MAKE me resurrect some threads.

As I recall;
u was doin it rong

Innis Cabal
2008-10-03, 07:10 PM
The Drowned. Awful creature. CR 8

monty
2008-10-03, 07:17 PM
The Drowned. Awful creature. CR 8

Agreed. Two of those almost caused a TPK in my last campaign.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-03, 07:23 PM
As I recall;
u was doin it rong

Not particularly: I was doing it wrong with the advanced version, since it wasn't one-shotting people. But fighting the way I did with the CR "3" version is appropriate.

Chronos
2008-10-03, 08:27 PM
I think Cuddly is referring to the -20 grapple penalty for using only a single extremity, as the Crab habitually does (and as Int --, it's too dumb to break that habit). That puts its grapple check back down into the range where a PC can realistically beat it.

Of course, even with its grappling nerfed, it still does a ton of damage and is very difficult to take out.

kbk
2008-10-03, 10:55 PM
This is 100% true.

On topic: Shocker lizards were easily my worst experience in 3.0. I believe the DM choses them more or less at random without reading their power, so he just threw the full CR budgets worth at us, which was well over 10, possible 20. He then laughed and said "oh wow, everyone make a reflex save vs REALLY HIGH" and rolled 10-20 dice for damage. I was the only one conscious afterwards, and being a rogue with no healing anything, i didn't stick around for round two.

That session was, unfortunately, one long PC hunt, wether the DM meant it to be or not.

edit: Looking at their CR of 2 i don't see how we saw so many of them...maybe it was lower in 3.0...(?)

They are definably at least somewhat different in 3.5.

No more than 6 can combine for an effect, and so the save DC wouldn't go above 16, but of course, multiples can do multipile pulses, and they can do a pulse every round. They may have boosted their CR for 3.5.

Still, one of those surprising monsters that gets really nasty as you get larger groups of them.