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BobVosh
2008-10-02, 05:57 AM
I know so far that 4ed seems really good as far as CRs go. Anyone had bad exparience with monsters popped too high up or too far down in the CR choo-choo train?

fractic
2008-10-02, 06:09 AM
Needlefang Drake Swarm, that is all.

BobVosh
2008-10-02, 06:09 AM
too good, or too bad?

fractic
2008-10-02, 06:13 AM
too good, or too bad?

It's way to strong. Pull down as a minor action and automatic attacks that deal good damage.

Best tatic is to move, pull down two enemies and when they get their turn take a free attack for 2d10+4 damage. Ow and it's only a level 2 monster

BobVosh
2008-10-02, 06:15 AM
that sounds almost exactly like TDC except it knocks down two enemies instead of grapples :/

Starbuck_II
2008-10-02, 06:35 AM
that sounds almost exactly like TDC except it knocks down two enemies instead of grapples :/

Not as bad. It doesn't have That Damn Carbs immunities/defenses. More like a paper tiger.
Deadly, but killing them isn't any harder than other same level monsters.

Although...more than 1 is within party budget if level 2 and that is TPK material.

One is fine.

fractic
2008-10-02, 06:41 AM
Not as bad. It doesn't have That Damn Carbs immunities/defenses.

It is still a swarm though. Resist 5 from melee and ranged attacks. The vulnerability to close and area isn't such a big deal since the swarm will surround itself by pulled down enemies making targeting hard.

Sebastrd
2008-10-02, 08:10 AM
Best tatic is to move, pull down two enemies and when they get their turn take a free attack for 2d10+4 damage. Ow and it's only a level 2 monster


It is still a swarm though. Resist 5 from melee and ranged attacks. The vulnerability to close and area isn't such a big deal since the swarm will surround itself by pulled down enemies making targeting hard.

If your DM is doing this he's an a-hole. A swarm creature should NOT be using tactics. A needlefang swarm will attack the closest creature and try to devour it. That is all. Is it dangerous? Absolutely. Is it a TPK waiting to happen. Only if your DM plays it wrong.

fractic
2008-10-02, 08:33 AM
If your DM is doing this he's an a-hole. A swarm creature should NOT be using tactics. A needlefang swarm will attack the closest creature and try to devour it. That is all. Is it dangerous? Absolutely. Is it a TPK waiting to happen. Only if your DM plays it wrong.

That's what I suggested right. Move towards food, preferably in a small group, pull them down and start eating.

KillianHawkeye
2008-10-02, 09:37 AM
If your DM is doing this he's an a-hole. A swarm creature should NOT be using tactics. A needlefang swarm will attack the closest creature and try to devour it. That is all. Is it dangerous? Absolutely. Is it a TPK waiting to happen. Only if your DM plays it wrong.

I agree. It should be played using the most direct strategy: move to closest target, minor action to pull down, standard action to attack, repeat.

Saph
2008-10-02, 10:02 AM
I agree. It should be played using the most direct strategy: move to closest target, minor action to pull down, standard action to attack, repeat.

Which, coincidentally, is exactly the most effective strategy for them in the first place. Swarms can also move into their target's space, making it impossible to use area attacks without hitting the victim as well.

Also note that since their MO is "pull down a target and devour it", that means they aren't going to leave a PC alone once he drops to negatives; they're going to attack him again while he's helpless and kill him. That's why they're so nasty. Trust me, Needlefang swarms don't need elaborate tactics to be deadly. They can take an equal-level PC from full HP down to zero in one round with decent rolls.

Also, Fire Beetles. Level 1 monster with a 3x3 blast attack at +4 to Reflex doing 3d6 damage. A pack of them can easily TPK a level 1 party.

- Saph

Calinero
2008-10-02, 10:07 AM
A gelatinous cube nearly killed my entire party of four. Then again, it's possible we just suck, and it did manage to split us up early on and envelope two of us in the first move. Freaking cubes...

The New Bruceski
2008-10-02, 10:28 AM
For Gelatinous cubes, note that it's a grapple, so forced movement doesn't take the players with it. Thunderwave rocks. Still can be tough though, but at least their grapple dazes giving an action.

I think the Spirit Devourer (11 elite) isn't bad for its level, but if you use one as a boss it can easily be out of players' leagues. High defenses pretty much across the board with a "grab" attack vs Will, often a low defense. If it grabs it can use three minor actions to chew for 30 damage (total), and while doing so it heals, deals AoE damage, and has better defenses. The grab removes the target from the board so you can't heal them, and it's broken by (save ends) or radiant damage. So if you don't have solid radiant (and it needs to hit) then one guy gets eaten, breaks free, and can't do anything before being eaten again.

Oh, and if killed there's no rez.

Yakk
2008-10-02, 11:34 AM
Fire Beatles. They are Brutes with a high-limited-damage AOE attack that is high-accuracy (like, artillery without the penalty for AOE).

Toss a few of them at a party, and they can wipe half of the party out with their AOE.

DM Raven
2008-10-02, 12:37 PM
Haven't looked at the swarm yet, though I've used the fire beetles and they're pretty mean. Luckily the aoe is a recharge so they can't keep doing it. But if they get lucky with the attacks and recharges it can turn into a nasty fight quick.

THAC0
2008-10-02, 12:40 PM
A gelatinous cube nearly killed my entire party of four. Then again, it's possible we just suck, and it did manage to split us up early on and envelope two of us in the first move. Freaking cubes...

Are you in my group? ;)

Actually, we ALL died. But it wasn't just the cube, it was the cube plus two swarm-things.

At least we took the danged cube with us.

Yakk
2008-10-02, 12:56 PM
Haven't looked at the swarm yet, though I've used the fire beetles and they're pretty mean. Luckily the aoe is a recharge so they can't keep doing it. But if they get lucky with the attacks and recharges it can turn into a nasty fight quick.

Take 5 beatles, have each use it once on even a reasonably clumped party.

There won't be much left of the party.

Then they have acceptable melee damage, and a chance to get a recharge on their AOE to finish the party off...

Oslecamo
2008-10-02, 12:59 PM
The beetles are cruel. Specially if you're crit happy. 30 damage kills players.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-02, 05:26 PM
And, on the opposite side of the scale, Dire Rat - Filth Fever is the only way it can really do anything to a level 1 character, and since you roll for contracting diseases after the encounter it's completely useless in combat.

Also, Ogre Brute - 1d10+5 damage for a level 8 brute, with a single, weak rechargable ability? If not for the 19 AC, a level 1 party would probably have a very good chance of winning with that.

FoE
2008-10-02, 05:57 PM
And, on the opposite side of the scale, Dire Rat - Filth Fever is the only way it can really do anything to a level 1 character, and since you roll for contracting diseases after the encounter it's completely useless in combat.

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing; I would feel pretty stupid if I got killed in combat by a rat, albeit a really big one, unless I'd just got knocked down to my last hit points by a dragon or something.

Charity
2008-10-02, 06:05 PM
Mate in a 3e game my rogue got killed by 6 bog standard rats ... I just couldn't hit the buggers It was horrible.

Grynning
2008-10-02, 10:06 PM
Also, Ogre Brute - 1d10+5 damage for a level 8 brute, with a single, weak rechargable ability? If not for the 19 AC, a level 1 party would probably have a very good chance of winning with that.

This got fixed, along with several other monsters' damage values, in the errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates). Nothing about the Beetles or the Drake Swarm, though, guess those are "working-as-intended."

SadisticFishing
2008-10-02, 10:09 PM
Throw enough Vine Horrors (both types)at a group that's bunched up... Yeah. Blinded/Restrained, 15 ongoing damage? Scary.

We did win, but if there were more of them (it was a perfect encounter for our level, supposed to be relatively easy), we would have been screwed. Turns out AoE crowd control is very good against parties.

MartinHarper
2008-10-03, 07:01 AM
Zombie Rotters are completely underpowered. Compared to a Hobgoblin Grunt, for example, they are slower and much easier to kill. Immunity to poison and disease doesn't really compensate for that. They also compare poorly to level-adjusted kobold or goblin minions. They would do better as level two minions.

I think Dire Rats are meant to consume the same resources (in terms of surges/etc) as other level 1 monsters when you include Filth Fever. It's sub-par in combat, but it does ok as an "attrition" type monster.

Yakk
2008-10-03, 10:30 AM
There is the general elite/solo problem.

If you aren't careful, they will have far too many HP to be a smart target for the players, and won't do enough damage to threaten the party.

(Elites should do about +50% to 75% damage over a normal monster. Solos about +250% damage. This damage should be somewhat more spread out than a normal monster.)

potatocubed
2008-10-03, 10:36 AM
There is the general elite/solo problem.

If you aren't careful, they will have far too many HP to be a smart target for the players, and won't do enough damage to threaten the party.

I figure that when you're making solo monsters you should always add some distinctive powers to them anyway - I mean, it's supposed to be a memorable boss encounter, not just a 'kobold +1' or whatever.

I'm sure I actually read advice to this end in the DMG, too, but I could be mistaken.

The Mormegil
2008-10-03, 11:02 AM
Try putting four PCs in a corridor 30 squares long, 2 squares wide and 4 squares high against 5 feygrove chockers... and a wimpsy kobold grinning at the end of it... But probably it's just the terrain...

Anyway the scenario goes like this:
PCs: "Guys, the boss, he's alone! Get him"
Kobold: *snigger*
Chockers: Vines Fetter! Vines Fetter! Vines Fetter! Vines Fetter! (Waits to them to break free before using Vines Fetter!) Choke Choke Choke Choke Choke!