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kjones
2008-10-02, 07:56 AM
What good ways are there to sneak attack things that are immune to sneak attack? I know there are some spells and feats and stuff, but I can't for the life of me remember where they are.

(I feel bad sending the party up against constructs and undead - the rogue kind of just sits there. I figure I'll throw her a bone with a Wand of Whatever.)

Medic
2008-10-02, 07:57 AM
Living Undeath is a cleric spell - 2nd level if I recall
two levels of warshaper will also do.

kamikasei
2008-10-02, 08:00 AM
Check the Spell Compendium and the Magic Item Compendium. The former has Gravestrike and... I think Golemstrike, off the top of my head, probably others. The latter has crystals you can add to items to achieve a similar effect.

Project_Mayhem
2008-10-02, 08:59 AM
Theres some alternate class features that let you use sneak attack, or swap it for other stuff, on enemies with immunities.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-02, 09:10 AM
That's the Penetrating Strike alternative class feature (Dungeonscape page 13): trade trapsense to deal 1/2 normal sneak attack damage vs. those normally immune that you flank. Since Penetrating Strike is tactically limited, also get your primary weapon up to +3 or better and pick up Greater Demolition and Greater Truedeath weapon augment crystals (Magic Item Compendium) for it; these let you deal full sneak attack damage, with any qualifying SA condition, against constructs and undead respectively.

Darrin
2008-10-02, 09:27 AM
What good ways are there to sneak attack things that are immune to sneak attack? I know there are some spells and feats and stuff, but I can't for the life of me remember where they are.


"Penetraing Strike" - 3rd level Rogue alternate class feature in Dungeonscape, p 13. When flanking a creature normally immune to precision damage, you do 1/2 sneak attack damage. It's not as great as it sounds, however, since there are several ways to be immune to flanking (improved uncanny dodge) and some creature types are also immune to flanking (such as elementals and oozes).

There are various spells that circumvent immunity (gravestrike, golemstrike). Check the Spell Compenium. Consider Dragon Devotee (Races of the Dragon, p. 84), it advances sneak attack twice and gives you a couple sorcerer levels for spellcasting. Finish off with Unseen Seer (Complete Mage).

Dragonfire Strike is probably the most reliable way, Dragon Magic, p. 18. It converts your sneak attack damage into energy damage, usually fire but you can pick up Draconic Heritage to switch it to one of the more obsure energy types like sonic or force. There are a variety of ways to pick up the dragonblood subtype, either with variant races or the rite of rebirth for Dragonborn of Bahumant, but the Dragontouched feat is necessary (and Cha 11) to get Draconic Heritage if you don't have sorcerer levels.

Person_Man
2008-10-02, 09:38 AM
Dragonfire Strike is probably the most reliable way, Dragon Magic, p. 18. It converts your sneak attack damage into energy damage, usually fire but you can pick up Draconic Heritage to switch it to one of the more obsure energy types like sonic or force. There are a variety of ways to pick up the dragonblood subtype, either with variant races or the rite of rebirth for Dragonborn of Bahumant, but the Dragontouched feat is necessary (and Cha 11) to get Draconic Heritage if you don't have sorcerer levels.

Quoted for truth value.

Sneak Attack damage progression is lower than two handed Power Attack, lower then magic, lower then psionics, and much lower then the various semi-optimized combos out there. The only thing its really better then is Skirmish. There's no reason crunch reason that a DM shouldn't just allow you to have it effect everyone who otherwise qualifies.

In fact, one DM I played with let players trade Sneak Attack for Backstab - you deal extra damage to anyone you flank. No immunities. (But it also doesn't apply to enemies denied their Dex, and it doesn't work at a range). It worked much better, IMO.

kjones
2008-10-02, 09:54 AM
I've actually been considering this - I'm really sick of everything being immune to sneak attack. Would it be unbalancing to just ignore sneak attack immunity?

By that same token, would it be unbalancing to ignore crit immunity? I'm really sick of "Natural 20! Oh, wait, it's a skeleton. Never mind."

AstralFire
2008-10-02, 09:59 AM
I've actually been considering this - I'm really sick of everything being immune to sneak attack. Would it be unbalancing to just ignore sneak attack immunity?

By that same token, would it be unbalancing to ignore crit immunity? I'm really sick of "Natural 20! Oh, wait, it's a skeleton. Never mind."

I haven't had an issue with it, and unless you're fighting giant solid geometric shapes, most things really should be subject to critical damage.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-02, 10:15 AM
I haven't had an issue with it, and unless you're fighting giant solid geometric shapes, most things really should be subject to critical damage.

Ooozes make some sense: I mean they just cytoplasm.

But everything else has some weask point plausible Golems have joints, Skeletons do too, etc.

Akisa
2008-10-02, 10:32 AM
Toss salt on them daggers!!

Curmudgeon
2008-10-02, 10:43 AM
Sneak Attack damage progression is lower than two handed Power Attack, lower then magic, lower then psionics, and much lower then the various semi-optimized combos out there. You're right. Sneak attack only really becomes viable when you spend one of your precious feats to pick up Craven, which boosts you from +1.75 to +2.75 points of damage per level. That's better than the +2 per level from 2-handed Power Attack -- at least when you can qualify for SA.

Zeful
2008-10-02, 10:53 AM
There's a feat called Razing Strike (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Razing_Strike,all). It should be what your thinking of.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-02, 12:53 PM
The Augment Crystals are his best bet. If he picks up both, he should be able to SA anything.

hamishspence
2008-10-02, 01:12 PM
not quite everything: one for constructs, one for undead, that leaves oozes and plants as not sneak-attackable.

Person_Man
2008-10-02, 01:15 PM
I've actually been considering this - I'm really sick of everything being immune to sneak attack. Would it be unbalancing to just ignore sneak attack immunity?

By that same token, would it be unbalancing to ignore crit immunity? I'm really sick of "Natural 20! Oh, wait, it's a skeleton. Never mind."

It really depends on your group.

A Goliath (+1 LA) Fighter 6 with Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Knock-Back, a reach weapon, and the Dungeoncrasher variant is much more powerful then a Half Elf Rogue 7 with three Skill Focus feats.

A Changeling Rogue 6 with Craven, Staggering Strike, and Maiming Strike is much more powerful then a Gnome Fighter 6 with all the Weapon Focus and Specialization feats for his short sword.

There is no universal balance in D&D that can be fixed. It all depends on context. In my groups, the modestly optimized casters tend to do a lot more and be a lot more powerful then the meat shields and Skill Monkeys, so I'm always looking out for them. Your mileage may vary.

namo
2008-10-02, 05:03 PM
Dragonfire Strike is probably the most reliable way, Dragon Magic, p. 18. It converts your sneak attack damage into energy damage, usually fire but you can pick up Draconic Heritage to switch it to one of the more obsure energy types like sonic or force. There are a variety of ways to pick up the dragonblood subtype, either with variant races or the rite of rebirth for Dragonborn of Bahumant, but the Dragontouched feat is necessary (and Cha 11) to get Draconic Heritage if you don't have sorcerer levels.

Actually Dragonfire Strike still requires you to be able to trigger Sneak Attack. It says "When you gain extra damage from a sneak attack...".

There's Vinestrike (SC), a druid and ranger spell, to SA plants. Oozestrike and Elementalstrike are the only ones that don't exist, I think.

graymachine
2008-10-02, 05:10 PM
You're right. Sneak attack only really becomes viable when you spend one of your precious feats to pick up Craven, which boosts you from +1.75 to +2.75 points of damage per level. That's better than the +2 per level from 2-handed Power Attack -- at least when you can qualify for SA.

What book is Craven in? What's the general outline of the feat?

Curmudgeon
2008-10-02, 06:26 PM
What book is Craven in? What's the general outline of the feat? Champions of Ruin. You gain +1 point of SA damage per character level, but suffer increased vulnerability to fear effects. This feat really helps multiclass characters; I like it with Rogue/Cloistered Cleric + Sacred Outlaw (Dragon # 357), which lets your Cleric and Rogue levels stack for SA damage and undead turning. You still need to improve your chances of hitting; after all the First Rule of Sneak Attack is:

If you don't hit, your sneak attack damage is zero.
Add Knowledge Devotion, as much weapon enhancement as you can afford, and (if you get to 7 levels of Cloistered Cleric) Divine Power to let you hit reasonably often, and you can do some significant damage.

That's a pretty focused combat build, with only moderate magical backup (since Sacred Outlaw doesn't let your Rogue levels help spellcasting), so it's not for those who like the traditional skill monkey role. Because your baseline damage is meager you constantly need to find ways to enable sneak attack. I describe this approach is tactically intense -- not good for late-night gaming sessions when your brain is running on fumes.