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View Full Version : Effective lich BBEG build(s)



NephandiMan
2008-10-02, 09:49 AM
So I've just finished reading Start of Darkness, and now I'm interested in using a lich BBEG in a future campaign. I thought a sorcerer would be a natural choice, given that the save DCs for lich's special attacks are Cha-based, but then I realized how useless those attacks were, and thought a different build might serve better.

I'm interested in both core and non-core variants, and although the basic rules are 3.5, feel free to use both 3.0 and 3.5 sourcebooks for non-core builds. Although it's intended as the final boss of the campaign, and hence will have 20 class levels to play around with (to make it a CR 24), I'm also interested if you have an idea for a build that would be sound regardless of class level.

So what do you guys think would work best? A druid gone horribly horribly wrong? Batman: the Liching? DMM clericzilla of the God of Card-Carrying Villains? In case anyone needs it, here's the lich template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm).

Adumbration
2008-10-02, 09:54 AM
If you like, you could take a cleric or a druid and use the Walker in the Waste prestige class from Sandstorm to create a formidable Dry Lich. I've always loved that prestige class.

Saph
2008-10-02, 09:58 AM
I actually made one of these for my Phantasy Star IV campaign to represent Lashiec. I went for a Sorcerer with Incantatrix levels, going for Split Rays and Empowered Enervations (not much use in the hands of PCs, but deadly against them). He also used Ruin Delver's Fortune and Greater Mirror Image to negate most attacks against him. The character was 12th-level, +2 CR for the Lich template.

Worked pretty well. Annoyed the hell out of the party, because cure spells don't do anything to heal the effects of Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Clumsiness, and Enervation. He didn't have all that much HP, though, so once they finally got up close and hung onto him, he went down after a few rounds.

- Saph

jcsw
2008-10-02, 10:08 AM
Lich DMM Cleric! Using dynamic priest to change the casting stat to Cha!

NephandiMan
2008-10-02, 10:40 AM
@ Saph: Yeah, the lack of hit points is one of my major concerns for a sorc lich. No Con score + low Fort save = Disintegrate BAD. Even if it's not metamagicked.

@jcsw: Oooo, nice! A cleric lich would go far toward removing my concerns with low Fort saves and low HP (thanks to spontaneous Inflict spells). One major obstacle to that was the MAD, but if I can make Cha my casting stat... *rubs hands together and cackles like Skeletor*

streakster
2008-10-02, 10:52 AM
A warlock/binder pixie Lich.

Good luck fighting the invisible, high AC, flying, small, untrackable pixie lich with a 20% miss chance against ranged attacks. And DR. And SR. And Dodge.

Use some Chausables, an Eldritch Sceptre, and the Hellfire Warlock/Bound Vestige of Ability Heal to boost damage significantly. Add in even more defense with more invocations, items, and so on - Flee the scene teleports away and leaves an illusion of you behind. Darkness can held fuddle even mages who can see you. Chained Utterdark blasts heal you and your undead minions. Dispells strip the party of buffs (see invisible, especially) and Shatter takes their equipment. You're a warlock, so you have UMD as well. Feel free to add in spells to this whole mess.

Now, you do have to bend the rules a little - Pixies can't be liches, I know - but if you do it (or find a lich version that can be applied to a pixie), it will be a lich to remember.

potatocubed
2008-10-02, 10:59 AM
Wacky Idea Time: How about a lich who isn't? He's not even undead. He (somehow?) pretends to be a lich so people who come to take him down tool up on anti-undead magic and get either surprised or terrified when none of it has any effect.

Bonus points if you make him a warblade. :smallbiggrin:

Or... for a slightly less wacky idea, a lich who surgically alters his fanatically loyal followers' appearance to resemble himself (i.e. corpsy), creating a whole bunch of 'fake liches' with a diverse array of classes and abilities. Some are undead, some aren't. At least one is an actual lich. Now you can have fun with a whole raft of PC-slaying builds. :smallcool:

I'm not so hot on actual builds, though... would a spectral hand build work? Can you discharge touch spells + a paralysing touch at the same time?

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2008-10-02, 01:00 PM
A decent Lich comes from a cleric with the magic domain and the death domain. Atleast, in my experience.
Another way to go is just make it a wizard/sorcerer with a higher HD.
Or, if you're going high enough, make it both.

Lochar
2008-10-02, 01:13 PM
Favored Soul lich, who's spent the past thousand years after a kingdom was killed raising the town and awakening the hundreds of thousands of people, and making them believe that this was the only way for the to survive a plague.

Yakk
2008-10-02, 01:28 PM
@ Saph: Yeah, the lack of hit points is one of my major concerns for a sorc lich. No Con score + low Fort save = Disintegrate BAD. Even if it's not metamagicked.
Um, they get to change their caster HD to d12s, don't they?

Waspinator
2008-10-02, 01:30 PM
I kind of like "Blighter" Druid Liches, like the one from Red Hand of Doom.

Saph
2008-10-02, 03:01 PM
Um, they get to change their caster HD to d12s, don't they?

Yeah, but they also lose their Con score. So a lich has about the same HP as an equal-HD sorcerer with a Con of 18, and the +2 CR effectively drops their HP further. Not absolutely terrible, but not great either.

Liches have lots of immunities and magical protections, but if a party can get through those and deal even a moderate amount of damage, the lich won't last long. The only reason my Lashiec-lich survived for long was due to a sky-high AC and using Greater Mirror Image to throw off targeting.

- Saph

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-02, 03:07 PM
Yeah, but they also lose their Con score. So a lich has about the same HP as an equal-HD sorcerer with a Con of 18, and the +2 CR effectively drops their HP further. Not absolutely terrible, but not great either.

Liches have lots of immunities and magical protections, but if a party can get through those and deal even a moderate amount of damage, the lich won't last long. The only reason my Lashiec-lich survived for long was due to a sky-high AC and using Greater Mirror Image to throw off targeting.

- SaphWhich is what the Phylactery is for. Facing Batman is bad, him coming back a week later to kill you specifically is worse.

arguskos
2008-10-02, 03:12 PM
As someone who abuses liches immensely, here's the key tricks to remember:

1. Make them arcane casters. They don't HAVE to be, but trust me, it's nice, since arcane magic brings tons of spell versatility and power to the table.

2. Think up their escape plans before you do ANYTHING else. This is vital. Remember, liches come back (thanks phylactery's!), so any lich worth his salt is going to have escape/revenge/rebuilding plans. Do some very clever things with the phylactery, btw.

3. Pick spells. I like making my liches use a dangerous environment to their advantage (Energy Immunity [fire]+Overland Flight+an active volcano; incorporality+thunderstorms; stuff like that) and then just use attrition to run the party down. If you'd rather go with a "I BLOW IT UP" caster, that's cool too, just be damned sure to give him a good number of buffs, so he doesn't wipe in one round (even w/ phylactery regeneration, it's annoying to have the BBEG wipe before he goes).

4. Liches are SMART. They are ancient, they learn, and they are not to be trifled with. Play them as such. Don't pull your punches, just make and play the best damn caster you can imagine, and then make/play them EVEN SMARTER.

I'll be back later with more specific lich tips (also, these have been tested with at least 30 liches I've run over the years :smallwink:). And by later, I mean an hour later. Meaning right now!

Ok, here's a good example of a sorcerer lich I used earlier:
Spells per day: 6/9/8/8/8/7/4
Spells known: All/5/5/4/3/2/1
Spell DC: 19+level
0-All
1- magic missile, shield, mage armor, nerveskitter, grease
2- scorching ray, web, spider climb, glitterdust, distracting ray
3- fireball, fly, haste, dispel magic
4- dimension door, enervation, ruin delver's fortune
5- firebrand, overland flight
6- disintegrate

This was a level 12 sorcerer lich. He was quite blasty, though he wasn't stupid. His personal magic items included scrolls of teleport, greater mirror image, and orb of force. He also carried a rod of quicken spell (up to level 6). Kelvan here gave a party of level 12 characters a good run for their money, and killed one of them right out. They eventually beat him (ie. made him run away with a teleport spell), but when he returned later, it was pretty ugly. I'd consider this as a good base for a blaster sorcerer lich. Key spells:
-Nerveskitter. Any sorcerer caster should take this. It just great.
-Scorching Ray. It's a good damage spell, IMO.
-Haste. Why WOULDN'T you take this spell??
-Ruin Delver's Fortune. Best. Sorcerer. Spell. Ever. It gives immediate Cha-based bonuses to saves and stuff.
-Firebrand. This is an amazing AoE damage spell. If you care, just use energy substitution to get around the fire damage. For sorcerers, it's really great, since they can spam it like no tomorrow.

This is of course, all personal preference.

-argus

streakster
2008-10-02, 03:59 PM
If the lich gets minions, take a look at the Corpsecrafting rules in the Homebrew forums. They make undead minions so much more fun...

Dr Bwaa
2008-10-02, 04:07 PM
arguskos has some really good points. I'd just like to second the "do clever things with the phylactery" bit.

And Lochar, that's gross, in an awesome way :smallbiggrin:

SadisticFishing
2008-10-02, 04:10 PM
My lich, Xavian, was one of the most fun and headache inducing fights I've ever seen. Attempting to role play 37 int was very... yeah.

I must have done something right though, cuz I won. Even though he had a Xanatos Gambit set up, and was planning to use... yeah. Whoops, but one teleported away and rez'ed the group.

The build: LE Grey Elf Wizard 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/Archmage 3 (CR20, ECL22).

Grab Quicken and Chain Spell, and go nuts. Maw of Chaos, Prismatic Spheres, yeah. With a Monk belt and other good gear, his AC was 50, touch was something like 40..

Also, binding Focalor and Chucoplocs gave everyone -4 to saves if they were beside him and didn't have Mind Blank up. Turns out my level 20 group wasn't very intelligent, and they actually managed to NOT have any immunity to fear or mind effecting...

Banned Evocation and specialized in Divination.

RTGoodman
2008-10-02, 04:14 PM
Bard Lich.

It can be done, and I have done it. It might not be optimized, but it is pretty cool just to say you'd thrown your party against one!

arguskos
2008-10-02, 04:21 PM
arguskos has some really good points. I'd just like to second the "do clever things with the phylactery" bit.

And Lochar, that's gross, in an awesome way :smallbiggrin:
After playing liches and slaughtering players for nearly 10 years with them, I'd like to think I know a thing or two. :smallwink: Thanks though. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, I might do a "Lich Handbook" I guess. I really like liches, and I've found lots of people really don't use liches too well (too many people neglect to use their strengths, like the phylactery or anything).

-argus

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-02, 04:27 PM
Bard Lich.

It can be done, and I have done it. It might not be optimized, but it is pretty cool just to say you'd thrown your party against one!I always wanted to make a circle of Liches, each with a different focus and with each having one of the others as a Phylactery. At the final showdown there would be 8 Liches, with the original Lich circle being a Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard, Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Archivist, Artificer, Druid, Favored Soul, and Cleric, and the party having killed 3 of them(the Beguiler, Artificer, and Favored Soul). The party about level 18, the Liches between Cr 16 and 17. And when the dust settles, the party discovers notes mentioning a 12th, an "Enlightened Fist", who they must track down and kill before 1d10 days are up, giving me an excuse to move them to the area I want them for the next quest.

arguskos
2008-10-02, 04:37 PM
I always wanted to make a circle of Liches, each with a different focus and with each having one of the others as a Phylactery. At the final showdown there would be 8 Liches, with the original Lich circle being a Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard, Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Archivist, Artificer, Druid, Favored Soul, and Cleric, and the party having killed 3 of them(the Beguiler, Artificer, and Favored Soul). The party about level 18, the Liches between Cr 16 and 17. And when the dust settles, the party discovers notes mentioning a 12th, an "Enlightened Fist", who they must track down and kill before 1d10 days are up, giving me an excuse to move them to the area I want them for the next quest.
I've actually done something like this. I had a circle of of 8 specialist wizard liches, with a 9th, generalist archmage that led them. The party eventually had to face down all 9 at once. THAT was a great encounter, and the party only died once (they had contingent True Rez spells, don't ask how). :smallbiggrin:

Though, your idea is way better (lots more fun liches and uniqueness to go around). I may do that soon, actually.

-argus

RebelRogue
2008-10-02, 04:57 PM
Bard Lich.

It can be done, and I have done it. It might not be optimized, but it is pretty cool just to say you'd thrown your party against one!
I started a campaign centered on one of these (a doppleganger too), but it never got very far. I had fleshed out a lot of good basic ideas, though (too long to post now).

Anyway, for total weirdness you could make a 22th level Ranger a lich! That would be pretty strange indeed (and hardly optimised), but it's so outlandish I have to use it someday...

NEO|Phyte
2008-10-02, 05:05 PM
an Epic assassin could become a lich as well. Not quite as off the wall as a ranger, but still a somewhat strange mix, although the racial bonuses to hide and move silently would be quite welcome, I imagine.

mostlyharmful
2008-10-02, 05:13 PM
Anyway, for total weirdness you could make a 22th level Ranger a lich! That would be pretty strange indeed (and hardly optimised), but it's so outlandish I have to use it someday...

Give it Practised spellcaster and an Ioun stone and it'd be fine at level 13, barely above a full caster

RebelRogue
2008-10-02, 05:15 PM
an Epic assassin could become a lich as well. Not quite as off the wall as a ranger, but still a somewhat strange mix, although the racial bonuses to hide and move silently would be quite welcome, I imagine.
That is a great idea too. Actually, as I read it, an assasin has a caster level equal to his Assasin level (he casts spells just like a bard!) With Practised Spellcaster, you only need 7 assasin levels to go lich! That's as early as level 12.

ocato
2008-10-02, 05:27 PM
If the game wasn't still going, I'd tell you about the awesome Lich I made for my current PBP game. He's scary. However, instead, I will simply post that I totally have a lich BBEG and I'm excited about him. Also, to my players: Booga Booga!

NephandiMan
2008-10-04, 04:53 AM
These are some very good suggestions - in fact, one of the things I like about this forum is that even ideas that I most likely won't use or that are somewhat off-topic (for example, potatocubed's non-lich lich) tend to be both creative and stimulating. To everyone who contributed, my sincerest thanks.

Also, arguskos, I hope you end up making that lich guide - I know that I for one would like to read it.

EDIT: I might as well add this next question to this thread, rather than creating a new one: is there any reason I couldn't make my lich's entire hideout its phylactery? (By hideout, I mean the place where the lich will go when destroyed). Although easy to locate, at least when compared to a Tiny metal box, it would be considerably harder to destroy.

Fishy
2008-10-04, 06:04 AM
Hmm. If you wanted to be disgustingly unfair, a lich with one level of Psion (Nomad) and the Personal Space Alternate Class Feature (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a) could store his phylactery in an extradimensional storage space that only he can access.

While we're on Psionics, I have absolutely no idea what happens when a Cerebremancer Lich uses Mind Switch or True Mind Switch and then cuts the throat of the body he's stealing.

How about a Duskblade Lich? Free Quickened spells give you something to do with your swift actions, which is always important for a BBEG. Give him some sort of natural weapon, and he can deliver a touch spell, a paralysis attempt, and a negative energy blast with one claw. MAD is kind of a pain, but something like Changeling Duskblade13/Swashbuckler3/Warshaper4 might be awesome.

A Hexblade might be a scary Lich. You get Charisma spellcasting like a sorcerer, plus godly saves, plus the ability to throw around massive debuffs. Take the Dark Companion variant, give someone -8 to saves, smack them with a paralyzing touch, then move on to the next guy.

Doresain
2008-10-04, 09:10 AM
if you want something that the PCs are really going to have trouble fighting, make a diviner/tainted scholar...make it to where he has been doing nothing but casting spells for the past week...

Kaihaku
2008-10-04, 10:29 AM
I actually made one of these for my Phantasy Star IV campaign to represent Lashiec. I went for a Sorcerer with Incantatrix levels, going for Split Rays and Empowered Enervations (not much use in the hands of PCs, but deadly against them). He also used Ruin Delver's Fortune and Greater Mirror Image to negate most attacks against him. The character was 12th-level, +2 CR for the Lich template.

That officially makes you very cool. What did you stat out Zio as?


Worked pretty well. Annoyed the hell out of the party, because cure spells don't do anything to heal the effects of Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Clumsiness, and Enervation. He didn't have all that much HP, though, so once they finally got up close and hung onto him, he went down after a few rounds.

- Saph

And well it should have, unless you power level that's one of the harder fights in the game. :smallwink:

NEO|Phyte
2008-10-04, 11:08 AM
While we're on Psionics, I have absolutely no idea what happens when a Cerebremancer Lich uses Mind Switch or True Mind Switch and then cuts the throat of the body he's stealing.

In the case of Mind Switch, you die, and the other guy dies when the power's duration expires. True Mind Switch, you die, other guy loses a level.

Hal
2008-10-04, 11:20 AM
2. Think up their escape plans before you do ANYTHING else. This is vital. Remember, liches come back (thanks phylactery's!), so any lich worth his salt is going to have escape/revenge/rebuilding plans. Do some very clever things with the phylactery, btw.


I actually did this (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=185) for a lich BBEG in my campaign. (I'm not Shamus, I just like to steal his ideas)

It worked out very well. It turned the BBEG from a difficult-but-not-impossible encounter to a campaign focal point.

RTGoodman
2008-10-04, 11:47 AM
EDIT: I might as well add this next question to this thread, rather than creating a new one: is there any reason I couldn't make my lich's entire hideout its phylactery? (By hideout, I mean the place where the lich will go when destroyed). Although easy to locate, at least when compared to a Tiny metal box, it would be considerably harder to destroy.

The only problem I see with that is that the MM/SRD gives HP and Hardness stats for a phylactery (hardness 20, 40 HP, break DC 40) and says non-tiny-metal-box phylacteries are at least "similar" to that.

While you COULD conceivably use a whole lair as your phylactery, I think it goes against the spirit of the lich rules - you're an evil, undying thing that's super-hard to kill, but your phylactery isn't actually that hard to destroy once you find it. It's all about the journey, man.

NephandiMan
2008-10-04, 11:51 AM
I suppose using the entire hideout would be a bit over the top, wouldn't it? Still, I like the idea of a lich cackling and taunting the heroes, when they finally find the hideout, "Destroy this...if you can!"

Of course, it might be even more fun to make the phylactery out of a single load-bearing structure - say, a beam or keystone. Are the heroes willing to bring the whole area down around their heads for the sake of destroying the unspeakable evil once and for all?

vegetalss4
2008-10-04, 12:29 PM
Hmm. If you wanted to be disgustingly unfair, a lich with one level of Psion (Nomad) and the Personal Space Alternate Class Feature (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a) could store his phylactery in an extradimensional storage space that only he can access.


except for the part were the lich regenarates in a pounch sized space? that he cant exit?

The Glyphstone
2008-10-04, 01:01 PM
except for the part were the lich regenarates in a pounch sized space? that he cant exit?

He's a Lich. He just Planeshifts back to the Prime.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-04, 04:38 PM
My favorite Lich is a Dread Necromancer (HoH), for both SAD and survivability: "All undead creatures created by a dread necromancer who has reached 8th level or higher gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity and 2 additional hit points per Hit Die." He gains the Lich template by virtue of his own abilities, therefore this would apply to himself as well. Also note that any Lich who could have completed the ritual within an area of Desecrate containing an evil altar did complete the ritual in such an area, thereby gaining +2 HP per HD. Add on the feat Corpsecrafter (LM) for another +2 HP/HD. With all of those bonuses he'd have 1d12+6 HP per level, and a Dread Necromancer can spontaneously cast Harm. Take the feats Improved Unarmed Strike and Ascetic Mage (CV) (or substitute IUS for your martial weapon proficiency) and wear a Monk's Belt to get your Cha bonus to AC. Take the feat Southern Magician (RoF) and you can even use Divine Metamagic.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-04, 04:49 PM
Sorceror 5/Spellthief 1/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Uncanny Trickster 3/Arcane Devotee 1/Unseen Seer 5.

Take the Master Spellthief feat. Now your CL's stack and you get casting in light armor. Stack your Trickster levels on your Sniper levels, and you can warp up to seventh level spells into rays--which you can sneak attack with and then use your Spellthief abilities through. Focus on invisibility, hit-and-run tactics, and generally being a deceiving, hidden menace.

Saph
2008-10-04, 05:23 PM
That officially makes you very cool. What did you stat out Zio as?

A 9th-level cleric with the Chosen of Dark Force template, which gave him profane bonuses of +2 to all primary stats and saves, and let him use Nightmare, Black Wave, Petrify, and Magical Barrier at will. I statted Magical Barrier as giving him a +10 deflection bonus to AC and SR 22.

The PCs were level 6 when they first ran into him during their first trip to his Fort. It was intended as an unfair fight, and it was. :P

- Saph

Prometheus
2008-10-04, 08:41 PM
Bard Lich.

It can be done, and I have done it. It might not be optimized, but it is pretty cool just to say you'd thrown your party against one!
I've actually made a Bard Lich before, nice part is that they still get Ruin Delver's Fortune. She also had a cabal of clerics who were nice enough to buff her, heal her, and tank against the PCs. She had been duping her husband, the king who was also a powerful cleric. When the PCs killed her, it was he who had the pleasure of removing her from the Earth once and for all.

SilverClawShift
2008-10-04, 10:44 PM
I've actually made a Bard Lich before

My group went up against a bard BBEG who turned into a lich partway through an epic campaign before (epic being a literal descriptor, we started level 1 and ended somewhere around 35). She was actually the leader of a trio of undead bards (her and two vampires), who were all utterly heartbroken and psychotically nihilistic.

The whole 'Undead Bard' thing worked a lot better as a BBEG than you'd think, mainly because our DM found ways to make her scary (and in the end, an actual legitimate threat to reality as we knew it).
My favorite scene with her was when our group tracked them all to a massive abandoned ampitheater after they'd ruined a nearby town looking for some musical artifacts. We walk into the theater area, and there at the bottom is the lich sitting at an ominous pipe organ with her vampire cohorts at her sides, with a full chorus of Bonesingers and Spectral Lyrists. And the entire theatre was full of the fresh and mutilated corpses of the missing townsfolk. "A mute lifeless audience" is the phrase our DM used, I beleive.

Then the music started.
And as it turned out, the three bards had managed to become Dirgesingers. Each of them singing made one of the corpses in the audience spring to life and begin attacking us, making us fight our way down the steps towards the stage.
We were tearing through the zombies without much trouble, and there were only three at a time. But every time we killed a fresh undead, the singer who'd been controlling it just paused a beat and picked her song back up, bringing another member of the audience back to unlife to attack us. We were allready pretty battered by the time we got to the stage.
Then they used some kind of trapdoor to drop through the stage, and we had to fight through the Bone-and-Ghost-Bards in the chorus before we could follow them...

Good Times

*******************

Also worth mentioning just how a group of undead singers could actually become a serious threat. The group spent a lot of time studying Truespeech (as in Tome of Magic, Truenamer truespeech). Collectively, they managed to compose an epic bardsong that would "UnName" everything in listening range.
UnNaming something completely wipes it from existance, so thoroughly cleansing reality of their existance that even a deity can't return them to life without a two-hour ritual, two difficult truenaming skill checks, an eighth level spell, and THEn a true ressurection.

It was pretty intimidating to begin with, but it wasn't a world-breaker, because the singers would be UnNamed with the audience.

Except the lich bard had also discovered an eons-forgotten and eternity-unused tiny demi-plane called the Concerletia. The plane had been used by a pantheon of now-dead gods to communicate with mortals all across the multiverse. It was, in fact, the planes only purpose -to let the right being, in the right place, with the right understanding to speak to anyone, anywhere. It was a Universal scale megaphone.
And they intended to use it to literally sing the song that ends the world.

By the end of the campaign, the strangest mis-mosh of allies were teaming up with or against the lich. Gruumsh was on her side ("destroy EVERYTHING? :smallbiggrin:"), Lolth was on ours, Orcus was on hers, every Mindflayer in existance was on ours, ect, ect.

So, yeah. What caster the BBEG is before becoming a lich isn't what turns them into a threat. A villain is what you make of them :smallamused:

Fishy
2008-10-05, 01:14 AM
In the case of Mind Switch, you die, and the other guy dies when the power's duration expires. True Mind Switch, you die, other guy loses a level.

Yes, but... then what? You die, other guy loses a level, and then you reform next to him in your Lich body 1d10 days later?

ZeroNumerous
2008-10-05, 01:41 AM
Actually, a rather scary build for a Lich would be Cleric 5/Walker in the Wastes 10/Whatever-Cleric-PrC X. Use Dynamic Priest(Legends of the Twins: Dragonlance) to change your casting stat to Charisma instead. You gain all the benefits of a Lich, except your phylactery is composed of no less than 5 different pieces(which must all be smashed), your HP is equal to 17d12+CHA Modx17, and you have atleast 9th level spells.

And by cherry-picking the Spell and Magic domains you gain access to Anyspell and arcane scrolls. Throw in the fact that you can create Sand Mummies and have a boatload of ways/places to protect/hide your Jars.. Well.. It's definitely not something you'd let a PC play. :smalltongue:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-05, 02:28 AM
I actually threw a "Cheater of Mystra" Lich (old Mystra was LN) into a way overpowered campaign quite a while back. It actually didn't do any fighting whatsoever, it just completely destroyed the game by tricking the PCs. It was the funnest game I'd ever DMed.
The game went through about a dozen different players other than the player of the protagonist, which is why his character was the focus of the campaign. He'd heard a calling from some powerful demonic creature, and discovered a plot by a cabal of sorcerers to free the beast with a ritual that would put it under their absolute control. He stopped/killed them, and discovered that this demon was actually an ancient ancestor of his own.

In exchange for a promise of great power, he agreed to free the creature. It sent him to find an ally who would assist him, which the Lich posed as and convinced him fully that it wanted to help him. Long story short, the protagonist found a distant cousin of his to make a child to be sacrificed to free the beast. As soon as it was born he carried it into the next room where the lich was waiting, asked the lich how to free it, the lich told him to hand over the child and it would handle it, and it proceeded to teleport away. The protagonist's cousin actually had twins, but hearing what just went on also teleported away and enlisted the help of the Harpers...

The PCs chased anyway and got "Elminstered", decades later a formerly low-level NPC who had admired them and kept trying to tag along on their adventures resurrected the protagonist. He learned that the lich had used the ritual that the cabal of sorcerers had researched, and it flew away to conquer some other plane with the demon under its command. The now penniless epic protagonist... probably got what he deserved, and the campaign was concluded.
Cheater of Mystra is a (Cloistered) Cleric 5/ Dweomerkeeper 10/ Divine Disciple 5, using a FR regional feat to meet the arcane spellcasting prerequisite of DK.

Talic
2008-10-05, 03:34 AM
Isn't there a feat that allows you to determine bonus HP off a different stat? If so, you could possibly actually get bonus HP.

Alternately, if you really wanna stack up template fun, Make it a Lich Nymph. Deflection to AC and all saves = Cha modifier? Yes please. Druid casting + Sorceror casting? Hmm. Cha based blinding and stunning abilities? Sounds like good icing for the cake.

NEO|Phyte
2008-10-05, 12:06 PM
Yes, but... then what? You die, other guy loses a level, and then you reform next to him in your Lich body 1d10 days later?

Actually, you'd reform in HIS body, as thanks to True Mind Switch, it's yours.

NephandiMan
2008-10-08, 06:06 AM
Fracking awesome story about a bard lich.

You've just inspired me to make a lich based on the Phantom of the Opera. :smallbiggrin:

SoD
2008-10-08, 06:29 AM
An effective lich build? One word. Demilich.

My and my mates were discusing this: a bard demilich. No, it doesn't need to be a skull...a pair of bard demiliches dueting on a harp. Two hands. With epic spellcasting. As a bard. Scary stuff, eh?

NephandiMan
2008-10-08, 07:09 AM
Nice...sounds like something from The 7th Guest. (Hmm, Stauf as a lich might be fun).

Sadly, though, demiliches are an epic-level challenge - I was looking for ideas that I could use against PCs before 25th level. :smallwink:

Piggy Knowles
2008-10-08, 09:29 AM
In a core-only campaign I once ran, the BBEG was as follows:

Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Assassin 9

I had to fudge a little bit as the DM to allow the guy to be considered CL 11 (as listed as a requirement in the lich rules in the DMG), but in non-core Practiced Spellcaster easily takes care of that problem.

It was a nice deviation from the standard lich. This one was persuasive, sneaky, and physically powerful.

A simplified version of the back-story is that a paladin with pride issues (gasp!) gradually fell from grace while attempting to act as Admonitory for a wayward cleric of the local order. After killing the cleric and falling from grace, the ex-paladin found in his possessions books explaining complex rituals to allow for immortality. The ex-paladin changed his identity, assumed the facade of a new Order of Light, all the while secretly building up a group of thieves and temple-raiders to locate the elements needed for the ritual.

When the ritual was complete, the Order of Light went underground, acting as a secret court where people were taken from their homes, tried and executed for crimes in the dark of the night, their life's crimes being "illuminated" at the stroke of midnight. Then their body would be returned to their home, where they would be found in their bed the next morn with their throat slit and the ceremonial Dagger of Light next to them.

It was a fun campaign, and the PCs were pretty surprised when they went in to the fight expecting the lich to be a great cleric, and found themselves being stalked by an ambushing "strike and retreat" sort.

Zanticor
2008-10-08, 01:36 PM
What would you guys consider good/absolutelly vital arcane spells for a socrerer lich? I find it hard to keep the cr to a minimal and add some usefull sorcerer powers to the lich template. It seems to me the template is a lot of flavor and a boost to the combat powers of a sorcerer. Does that sugest to you the creature just buffs his ass and then does a tensors transformation? It has no fear because it will come back again. Anoying like hell I gues but it could become a running joke to keep on killing that same old cr 12 lich at every battle when he stops beeing a treat.

Zanticor

arguskos
2008-10-08, 01:40 PM
Ruin Delver's Fortune is one of the only "ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE" spells for a sorcerer lich. It can be found in the Spell Compendium, just so you know.

-argus

SoD
2008-10-08, 03:41 PM
Nice...sounds like something from The 7th Guest. (Hmm, Stauf as a lich might be fun).

Sadly, though, demiliches are an epic-level challenge - I was looking for ideas that I could use against PCs before 25th level. :smallwink:

Actually, although found in the Epic Level Handbook, tecnically, a Demilich doesn't have to have an epic CR.

Lich: Spellcaster 11+. CR=base+2
Demilich: Added to any Lich. CR=Lich+6.

So, an 11th level wizard Demilich has a CR of 19.

Alveanerle
2008-10-08, 03:44 PM
Nice...sounds like something from The 7th Guest. (Hmm, Stauf as a lich might be fun).

Sadly, though, demiliches are an epic-level challenge - I was looking for ideas that I could use against PCs before 25th level. :smallwink:

Aww, c'mon, demilich is just +6 to cr... :smallredface:

Kami2awa
2008-10-08, 03:45 PM
2. Think up their escape plans before you do ANYTHING else. This is vital. Remember, liches come back (thanks phylactery's!), so any lich worth his salt is going to have escape/revenge/rebuilding plans. Do some very clever things with the phylactery, btw.


Surely a lich wouldn't ever need an escape route; if he's destroyed he can easily put himself back together from the phylactery.

Friv
2008-10-08, 04:06 PM
I'm a little surprised that this hasn't been mentioned yet, because it's straightforwards:

The "spellstitched" template from MM2 allows for a clerical lich to be pretty scary. You give up one level, but you gain fifteen more arcane spells per day (of levels 1-6) in addition to your clerical spells, +2 on all your saves, spell resistance of 15 + Cha modifier, and more turn resistance.

It starts to get a touch back to MAD, but you don't need high Intelligence or Strength for the build, so you can go Wisdom, Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence, Strength.

Alveanerle
2008-10-09, 06:28 AM
In Age of Worms adventure path, there's an interesting lich encounter.

(spoilers for those who do not wish to be spoiled)

The Spire of Long Shadows adventure (dungeron #130, page 81) features a mini-BBEG called Mak'kar, Habringer of Worms. It's an advanced spellweaver lich, CR17. 6 handed lich, yes you've heard it right. Basicly any number of spells of up to 6 spell circles total it can cast at once, as a standard action.

Couple that with Rapid Metamagic and Quickened Spell for more value for your bucks.

jcsw
2008-10-09, 07:19 AM
I'm a little surprised that this hasn't been mentioned yet, because it's straightforwards:

The "spellstitched" template from MM2 allows for a clerical lich to be pretty scary. You give up one level, but you gain fifteen more arcane spells per day (of levels 1-6) in addition to your clerical spells, +2 on all your saves, spell resistance of 15 + Cha modifier, and more turn resistance.

It starts to get a touch back to MAD, but you don't need high Intelligence or Strength for the build, so you can go Wisdom, Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence, Strength.

Take dynamic priest to make your casting stat charisma instead of wisdom. MAD solved.

Friv
2008-10-09, 09:54 AM
Take dynamic priest to make your casting stat charisma instead of wisdom. MAD solved.

Unfortunately, not.

The bonus spells that are granted by the Spellstiched template, oddly, are arcane sorcerer spells that are based on the Wisdom score of the beneficiary creature - if you don't have Wisdom 20+, you don't get the full benefit. I imagine this is why you don't typically see it used with liches, who tend to go the Intelligence / Charisma route.

Under the circumstances, you're better off going cleric/druid and taking Charisma as your second stat, accepting a 1-2 pt drop in your lich powers.

Maerok
2008-10-09, 10:14 AM
I personally think that the Lich could do with Undead Toughness that popped up in later books (LM and such) for big nasty undead.

Undead Toughness could work as a feat; it essentially trades Con bonus for Cha bonus when determining HP. Tack that to the template and it'll give the lich a little more short-term staying power.

arguskos
2008-10-09, 11:51 AM
Surely a lich wouldn't ever need an escape route; if he's destroyed he can easily put himself back together from the phylactery.
While he can, it's a pain, and not something he would like to rely on if possible. I mean, think of it this way: if you are immortal, and come back 1d10 days after being killed, you'd probably still mind the inconvenience of those 1d10 days. Sure, you come back, but it's the principle of the thing that really sucks about it.

Also, here's a fun phylactery trick: carry it on the lich's person. Have a contingent teleport on the lich, tied to when he dies. Basically, when the party destroys the lich, he teleports to a safe house, and takes the phylactery with him.

-argus

NephandiMan
2008-10-09, 05:07 PM
Actually, although found in the Epic Level Handbook, tecnically, a Demilich doesn't have to have an epic CR.

Lich: Spellcaster 11+. CR=base+2
Demilich: Added to any Lich. CR=Lich+6.

So, an 11th level wizard Demilich has a CR of 19.

That's what I thought, too - and started creating a demilich at CR 19, until I saw this under the "Creating Soul Gems" subheading in the Demilich SRD entry: "The lich must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level." I suppose, strictly speaking, you could create a demilich without soul gems, but that would deprive it of the trap the soul supernatural ability - its best (and most flavorful) weapon.

NeoVid
2008-10-10, 02:37 PM
And when the dust settles, the party discovers notes mentioning a 12th, an "Enlightened Fist", who they must track down and kill before 1d10 days are up, giving me an excuse to move them to the area I want them for the next quest.

Brilliant. This made me think of a lich using the Sacreligious Fist build... monk with a lich's paralysis touch! ...which then made me wonder why no one's suggested an Ur-priest lich yet.

And Saph, I've got to hear more about your PS IV campaign. I hope there's a thread about it somewhere...

Vinshwitz
2008-10-13, 04:44 PM
is this gonna be a serious game?