OOTS #598 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Samurai Jill]

How in the Hells did he drag that thing!?!

EDIT: Oh, right. He moved the body. Also good strip.

[NisseBosseLasse]

Great strip as always. Will Therkla show up in heaven with Roy now?

[SlightlyEvil]

Nice. Therkla deserves to be remembered in style.


Great strip as always. Will Therkla show up in heaven with Roy now?

Probably not, since she was both a worshipper of the 12 Gods and not Lawful Good (not personally sure exactly where she falls, but Lawful Good is definitely not it).

[Woof]

That was way cute )

[Charles Phipps]

I wish the comic hadn't been used to make a Roy love fest.

I'm fairly sure Roy would have bungled things worse if Belkar is any indication.

[Maryring]

Very beautiful.

[Tricia]

heh. I was almost expecting something a bit more tear-jerking when I started to read it...but this was almost as good. The last panel definitely made up for a horrid night at work.

[Moonshadow]

Uh, he didn't, he just buried her under it. And then scaled it and carved an inscription into its chest.


Better hope no one comes along and uses Stone to Flesh, else that demon is gonna have a funky looking scar.

Also, I'm getting the feeling that Hinjo might not be as pissed as we thought. Maybe.

[SPoD]

How in the Hells did he drag that thing!?!

Uh, he didn't drag it at all, he buried Therkla at its foot. The rope is so he could climb up and use his rapier to carve the words.

[gloomanddoom]

How in the Hells did he drag that thing!?!

It was nearby, he didn't have to drag it anywhere...

I thought it was pretty sad that Elan rambled about Roy and himself at Therkla's eulogy, but whatever I guess it's the intention that counts... :smallfrown:

[Lyinginbedmon]

And now we have a definite year for the OotS to occur in, 1184 :smallsmile:

Also, that is one pimp headstone :smallcool:

[factotum]

"I'm not a hero, I just play one in a comic strip." Pure. Gold. And despite his fumbling, Elan managed to do a pretty good job of the eulogy...

[EDIT]We already knew the year was 1184 from strip #489, because it's on the graph showing Belkar's evil quotient.

[Sampi]

Okay, so now I want a 30-meter high devil statue (preferably one made from a real devil) for my headstone. Stop putting these ideas in my head, mr. Giant!


Nice comic.

[Dr. Simon]

Great strip as always. Will Therkla show up in heaven with Roy now?

Roy's in the Lawful Good afterlife (The Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, "officially").

Therkla more than likely wasn't Lawful Good.

That was a nice little touch with Kazumi's tear of joy - presumably Durkon was checking that Baby Kato was okay.

Edit: Typo. I know how to spell "Therkla" really :smallredface:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I wonder if making a devil into a headstone will end up coming back to haunt Elan later in life...

:smalleek:

[Yendor]

Awww. That's sweet.

[Tundar]

Elan is nice. If people would be as kind and caring as he is, the whole world would be a much better place to live in.

And yes, KICKASS headstone. Props for that one!

[Skyserpent]

Dawwww... That was adorable.

[TerrickTerran]

Ahhh Elan, sweet and touching as always. Nice tribute to Therkla and a mention of Roy make me happy.

[Ironfist Orc]

A pretty good girlfriend indeed. Awww.

[Hal]

I second the "I know how I want to be buried now" meme.

[dish]

I have nothing too exciting to say. Just another, "Awww."

Poor Therkla. Poor Elan. Lucky V, looks like he's going to get away with that.

Reunion soon? Yes?

[DomaDoma]

Elan was officially playing dumb in the last strip. Awesome.

[Zeebiedeebie]

Awesome comic! I was more expecting a resolution to the whole disintegrating Kubota thing, but this was even better.

[Dracoma]

Well, to reiterate what's already been said. "That's sweet" and "Badass Gravestone"!

Good job on the comic!

[Threeshades]

I wonder if making a devil into a headstone will end up coming back to haunt Elan later in life...

:smalleek:

Did the spell Vaarsuvius used to petrify the devil kill it or merely petrify it.

Because in the latter case. No the devil would be trapped in his stone body. Unless someone broke the spell.
If it killed the devil: No, the devil would be forced to stay in hell for the next 100 years. Elan probably isnt going to live that long.

[Thant]

Holy s*** that was frelling awesome. Elan, you've finally beaten Belkar as my #1 favorite OotS character. This is why he deserves to get a good ending...rock on, Elan bro :smallwink:

[charl]

Having a petrified devil as a headstone to someone who died in the arms of the lover she could never have seems to be tempting fate a bit. I'm sure there is some kind of undead spirit for these sort of occasions.

[Gamerlord]

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why did that stinky half-orc be honored?!
BURN HER CORPSE AND DUMP THE ASHES INTO A WHIRLPOOL!

[FlawedParadigm]

Yeah, speaking of missing Roy...

I guess it's the medium. I'm reading through the archives again and Haley's speech impediment wasn't half so annoying when it didn't take months to get through. I imagine Roy's death will be the same way. He's been dead what, eight or nine months now?

[SometimesKate]

That made me tear up a little. It wasn't a happy resolution, but it was the happiest that could be expected, given the situation. Besides, you never know if Therkla and Roy might meet. Roy and his father did, and we know for certain that Eugene wasn't lawful good. The change in pantheon might make it more difficult, but the fact that they're interested in the same people might cause them to intersect at some point.

[Vulion]

I just wanna hug Elan right now.

[JasonDoomsblade]

That is a kickass headstone.

[Swashbuckler]

Ya know, as much as I cannot stand Elan ... kudos for character development in this strip, Giant. Looks like the doofus is finally getting some real-world leadership training.

... and yeah, totally kick-ass headstone! :smallsmile:

[Totally Guy]

He's been dead what, eight or nine months now?

I recall it was March '07. Roy has been dead for a year and a half.

[Itdano]

That is, indeed, a pretty kickass headstone.

[JoseB]

Well, that was very nice and touching! And very Elanesque as well. That is exactly the kind of eulogy I would have expected of him.

Just my 2 eurocent!

[Raz_Fox]

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why did that stinky half-orc be honored?!
BURN HER CORPSE AND DUMP THE ASHES INTO A WHIRLPOOL!

:smallfurious: Some of us liked that "stinky half-orc" a lot! Kindly remember that the characters YOU hate may be the favorite characters of others!!

I thought I had gotten over Therkla's death, but the last panel just choked me up again. That was definitely the way she deserved to be remembered, and Elan's love towards everyone shines out in this entire strip.

Sure, he loves Haley in a romantic sense, but it's clear to me (for the first time *headpalm*) that Elan really did love Roy like a brother. For Elan, Roy was the older brother Nale could never be - guiding, sometimes kind, sometimes pointing out Elan's mistakes so that Elan could improve. And it's clear here that he did like Therkla, that he loved Therkla enough to know that she deserved more than love towards someone who could never give it back to her the way she wanted.

A fitting memorial for the lovely half-orc who only wanted to be loved. She would have made a pretty cool girlfriend, indeed. (I'm not going to cry. Really.)

[Belkster11]

I get a sinking feeling that Hinjo's not gonna be nice to Elan. As a paladin, he thinks evil=evil, so to him, Therkla is just as bad as Kubota.

We need Roy to ghost himself down to Elan and give HIM a pep-talk like he did Haley...that is, of course, assuming they could SEE him.

Maybe Durkon can use a cleric spell to see Ghost Roy?

But one question, why didn't Durkon cast "True Ressurection" yet?

[dshupp]

I especially liked Kazumi and her tear in the background as Durkon assures her that the baby is fine. Beautiful and well played, Giant.

On the flip side, Elan's emerging leadership/intelligence/confidence are really swinging up and down lately

[esmerelder]

N'awww *cuddles Elan*

On the other hand, I don't think even Roy would be able to resolve the situation this half of the team is in at the moment without *someone* getting hurt...

[Meshakhad]

I actually think Therkla just might show up in the LG afterlife. At the very least, she might try to get in.

See, Therkla was motivated to both defend her lord and her beloved. She's clearly Lawful. And when she had to betray one of them, she chose her beloved - a Good act, given that her lord was evil and he forced her to make the choice.

[JoseB]

<...>But one question, why didn't Durkon cast "True Ressurection" yet?

Because "True Resurrection" is a clerical spell of the 9th (spell) level, requiring a cleric of at least 17th (character) level to cast. Durkon is not at that level. I don't know what the estimated level is for the characters of the Order of the Stick, but they are nowhere near level 17.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm


Just my 2 eurocent!

[Vargtass]

But one question, why didn't Durkon cast "True Ressurection" yet?

He probably would, if he had the level for it.

Oooooh, ninja'd!

[Najian]

I want a headstone of at least that size as well! :smallamused:

[MuseUnchained]

This was a touching comic for me, thanks Giant.

[Starscream]

"I'm not a hero, I just play one in a comic strip."

Thanks for that, Elan. It made my day.

"She would have made a pretty good girlfriend, too"

*snif*

[DigoDragon]

I want a headstone like that. :smallbiggrin:



...it's clear to me (for the first time *headpalm*) that Elan really did love Roy like a brother. For Elan, Roy was the older brother Nale could never be...

Indeed, Roy was more then just the linchpin that kept the Order together. He semed to make the order come together like a family. Well, except maybe for Belkar... but that's Belkar. :smalltongue:

[Laurentio II]

It's just me I know, but Elan acted like a real idiot this strip. I felt really mushy to see that the baby is fine, and that Elan gave a decent bury to Therkla. And this is very, very good to read, until half of the page.

Than is all just Elan speaking of himself, how he misses Roy and (my opinion) the author voice telling that Elan is, really, stupid as he seems. Just to close some weird thread. Great way to honor someone that died for you, blockhead.
Now, the gravestone... basass, really. Not that he had anything to be proud of it, it was there just for that use. And seems a little bad taste for a ninja but again, Elan thinks she was a super heroine, so this is nice from him. But really, "She would have made a pretty cool girlfriend, too"?
WELL THANKS, ELAN. I suppose that is everything any girl can wish, to be remembered as your potentially cool girlfriend. You could have made better to replace her name with "Elan Girl", like any good sidekick deserves.
Done for fun? Yes, I understand. Actually fun? You mileage can vary, but mine makes me wish to have a paper copy of the page to burn.
The fact the half of the strip is a rant on "Roy could have been a good brother to me" is not helping.

Next page: Durkon dies. On his tombstone Elan will carve "He could have made a pretty long pub tab, given more time"

My, the nerves... going to put my head under cold water for a while.

[Starbuck_II]

"I'm not a hero, I just play one in a comic strip."

Thanks for that, Elan. It made my day.

"She would have made a pretty good girlfriend, too"

*snif*

Yeah, that made my day too. I like the character development; so people are right he is trying to channel the inner Roy in himself.

[elonin]

Must say that headstone kicks butt! However it's just like Elan to go and bury someone who could have been rez'd

[sun_tzu]

I get a sinking feeling that Hinjo's not gonna be nice to Elan. As a paladin, he thinks evil=evil, so to him, Therkla is just as bad as Kubota.

...Haven't you been paying attention to any of the paladins other than Miko in this comic?:smalleek:

[DomaDoma]

and (my opinion) the author voice telling that Elan is, really, stupid as he seems.

Ask yourself: did he have any doubts concerning what to do about Vaarsuvius at the beginning of the last strip?

[Squeeck]

And Elan did not even spoil the moment with any silly song or whatever :smallsmile: *awed*

*sigh* He's really grown up...

[Prowl]

Because "True Resurrection" is a clerical spell of the 9th (spell) level, requiring a cleric of at least 17th (character) level to cast. Durkon is not at that level. I don't know what the estimated level is for the characters of the Order of the Stick, but they are nowhere near level 17.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm


Just my 2 eurocent!

I wouldn't necessarily say they are 'nowhere near' level 17... they've got to be in the 12-14 range, maybe even 15th by now.

I wonder if a scroll could potentially be found and used?

[sun_tzu]

Must say that headstone kicks butt! However it's just like Elan to go and bury someone who could have been rez'd

No she couldn't. The spirit has to be willing, and Therkla explicitly asked Elan not to have her resurrected.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I like it. I definatly didn't get a "too much rambling about Roy" feel at all.

And "she would have made a pretty cool girlfriend, too" strikes me, personally, as touching. For Haley at least, if not both of them.
Kind of a "I Love you too much than to take this convient relationship right here which would indeed, be awesome.
I'm so sorry, Therkla."

[Trazoi]

Next page: Durkon dies. On his tombstone Elan will carve "He could have made a pretty long pub tab, given more time"
That isn't a half bad epitaph. Maybe you could get it carved into the side of a brewery as your headstone!

I also find Elan's emotion for Therkla to be nicely twinned with his affection for Roy as someone he looks up to for inspiration in this strip.

[docstrange]

I wish the comic hadn't been used to make a Roy love fest.

I'm fairly sure Roy would have bungled things worse if Belkar is any indication.

I don't see it as a love-fest for Roy. I think that the story is being set up for Elan to evolve into the team leader. One step is for him to say "I couldn't do it the way Roy did" - and the next is to find his own way to deal with V, find haley, etc.

He's already showing leadership by managing the communication with Hinjo.

[DeathQuaker]

Awesome and sweet strip.

Hope Elan gets the guidance he seeks soon.

[shylocxs]

Roy's in the Lawful Good afterlife (The Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, "officially").

Therka more than likely wasn't Lawful Good.

That was a nice little touch with Kazumi's tear of joy - presumably Durkon was checking that Baby Kato was okay.

Therkla wasn't (man, I need to learn how to type sometimes!) LG, but I wish her and Roy would have a chance for some communication in the afterlife... almost to the point of kinda expecting it. But nice strip, and looking forward to #600!

[Psilent1]

Roy isn't actually in the Lawful Good afterlife at the moment, but outside the gates. Now whether or not he's gaming with his archon or watching what's happening...

[Starknight]

Crowning moment of Heartwarming. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrowningMomentOfHeartwarming)

[Slamexo]

Wow, that was just awful to read. It was well written I mean, I just hate seeing characters die and be buried! :smallfrown:

R.I.P Therkla

[Thant]

It's just me I know, but Elan acted like a real idiot this strip. I felt really mushy to see that the baby is fine, and that Elan gave a decent bury to Therkla. And this is very, very good to read, until half of the page.

Than is all just Elan speaking of himself, how he misses Roy and (my opinion) the author voice telling that Elan is, really, stupid as he seems. Just to close some weird thread. Great way to honor someone that died for you, blockhead.
Now, the gravestone... basass, really. Not that he had anything to be proud of it, it was there just for that use. And seems a little bad taste for a ninja but again, Elan thinks she was a super heroine, so this is nice from him. But really, "She would have made a pretty cool girlfriend, too"?
WELL THANKS, ELAN. I suppose that is everything any girl can wish, to be remembered as your potentially cool girlfriend. You could have made better to replace her name with "Elan Girl", like any good sidekick deserves.
Done for fun? Yes, I understand. Actually fun? You mileage can vary, but mine makes me wish to have a paper copy of the page to burn.
The fact the half of the strip is a rant on "Roy could have been a good brother to me" is not helping.

Next page: Durkon dies. On his tombstone Elan will carve "He could have made a pretty long pub tab, given more time"

My, the nerves... going to put my head under cold water for a while.

But that's just the way Elan is. He doesn't know better. He is still a child at heart - simple and naive, yet loyal and kind to everyone. And what you may see as potentially sexiest or macho remark is his way of expressing himself - in his mind most people are just girls and boys and everyone should be best friends (buddies). Unlike many others he is at least honest and says what he really thinks and truly feels toward someone...So what if he remembered Roy on her grave? He is his model after all. Or that he lamented her in such manner? Would some more elaborate or eloquent speech pay greater homage to Therkla? Don't think so.

[Animefunkmaster]

This was very touching.

[Belkster11]

...Haven't you been paying attention to any of the paladins other than Miko in this comic?:smalleek:

I was. It's just that I don't think Hinjo would be all sympathetic that Therkla died. For all he's concerned: Therkla worked with Kubota and Kubota made deals with the devils.

If he found out that Elan went and buried Therkla, he may not take that lightly.

Especially if Elan tells him what V did to Kubota. He'll probably assume Elan and V are trying to screw him over.

While granted Diago probably told Hinjo everything, Hinjo's probably going to maintain an air of suspicion. Therkla got killed by Kubota...so where is Kubota?

[Gitman00]

Interesting to see the different ways being apart forces the characters to develop. Elan has been an irresponsible twit for most of the strip, and he's starting to understand that actions have consequences, and not everyone gets a happy ending. He's feeling for the first time like he's in over his head, and he's going to need to take responsibility.

Contrast with Vaarsuvius, who for the first time has come up against a serious problem that can't be solved with magic, and is losing his/her mind in his/her refusal to accept defeat, to the point of turning on teammates.


Besides, you never know if Therkla and Roy might meet. Roy and his father did, and we know for certain that Eugene wasn't lawful good.

We don't know that at all. Eugene is a jerk, but the implication is that he'd be getting into the Lawful Good heaven if not for the Blood Oath.


Than is all just Elan speaking of himself, how he misses Roy and (my opinion) the author voice telling that Elan is, really, stupid as he seems. Just to close some weird thread. Great way to honor someone that died for you, blockhead.
Now, the gravestone... basass, really. Not that he had anything to be proud of it, it was there just for that use. And seems a little bad taste for a ninja but again, Elan thinks she was a super heroine, so this is nice from him. But really, "She would have made a pretty cool girlfriend, too"?
WELL THANKS, ELAN. I suppose that is everything any girl can wish, to be remembered as your potentially cool girlfriend. You could have made better to replace her name with "Elan Girl", like any good sidekick deserves.
Done for fun? Yes, I understand. Actually fun? You mileage can vary, but mine makes me wish to have a paper copy of the page to burn.
The fact the half of the strip is a rant on "Roy could have been a good brother to me" is not helping.

I think this was entirely in character for Elan, as well as deftly providing some development and character exposition. He's got a pretty clear case of ADD, so getting distracted and talking about how he missed Roy isn't off the mark. Elan's had his best friend killed, his girlfriend has been MIA for months, and he believes he failed at rescuing the damsel in distress. He's got a lot on his not-too-bright mind, and his expressions of sorrow and self-doubt are, IMHO, what most people in his situation would be thinking. He says it out loud, because the author knows that using the device of a eulogy would be an effective way to express these things, and would be less boring than thought balloons.

As for the girlfriend thing... look at the comic where she died. Her last words were practically begging to be his girlfriend. He made a genuinely kind gesture with that headstone, in honor of her last wish.

[Nightfall]

Must say that headstone kicks butt! However it's just like Elan to go and bury someone who could have been rez'd

Therkla didn't want to be rez'd, remember? If she couldn't be with Elan as his recognized girlfriend, she chose not to come back at all.

EDIT: Okay, never mind my itchy trigger finger. Someone already pointed this out. I supposed I should take the time to read ALL the posts before having a knee-jerk response. :smallbiggrin:

[Lamech]

I thought that he would at least try to get his the ninja girl raised... he is seriously just going to take her at her word? Maybe she will think he had a change of heart, or being tourtured without Elan, is worse than not being tortured with out Elan!:smallmad:

Looks like V is getting ratted out.:smallsmile:

[SometimesKate]

I think that Hinjo, while he is a paladin, has a far great sense of, not really pragmatism, that was his uncle, but of the rightness of things. He doesn't want to try Kubota and have him get away with it. He won't like that V solved the problem so abruptly, but I don't think he's going to have a hissyfit over it. Besides, they're not his subjects, and his laws, or morals, or mores, do not apply to them.

I still think that Eugene isn't lawful good. Pretending to be an avatar of law and fixing a trial isn't exactly the right sort of behaviour.

And no, raising Therkla wouldn't work. She will not return to a world where she has to watch Elan with another woman. I agree with her completely.

[Jenx]

Oh hell yeah! I'm gonna start saving up money from now, and when I die I want a huge ass statue of a demon for a headstone too!

[Caractacus]

Interesting to see the different ways being apart forces the characters to develop. Elan has been an irresponsible twit for most of the strip, and he's starting to understand that actions have consequences, and not everyone gets a happy ending. He's feeling for the first time like he's in over his head, and he's going to need to take responsibility.

Contrast with Vaarsuvius, who for the first time has come up against a serious problem that can't be solved with magic, and is losing his/her mind in his/her refusal to accept defeat, to the point of turning on teammates.

I absolutely agree. I think that we are seeing an Elan who is now several things, not one. Most people are. In the old days he was very simple - now he is simple AND has other sides to his personality, too. He is trying to be a leader, he is trying to be a hero, he is trying to be responsible - naturally, he experiences varying levels of success since he hasn't been (or even TRYING to be) these other things for long.

Gitman00 on Laurentio II's comments:


I think this was entirely in character for Elan, as well as deftly providing some development and character exposition. He's got a pretty clear case of ADD, so getting distracted and talking about how he missed Roy isn't off the mark. Elan's had his best friend killed, his girlfriend has been MIA for months, and he believes he failed at rescuing the damsel in distress. He's got a lot on his not-too-bright mind, and what he says in this strip is, IMHO, what most people in his situation would be thinking. He says it out loud, because the author knows that using the device of a eulogy would be an effective way to express these things, and would be less boring than thought balloons.

Yes. Elan has always been like this, even relatively recently. See the speech to rally the Azure City defenders for evidence.

Of course he is a mixture of competent, incompetent, amusing and annoying. He is Elan. It is his main role - at least as I see it. I don't think I'd want character progression to be such that it is basically rewrites character behaviour over a few months. While some people DO change that rapidly, most require, surely, a transition period of extended duration.

I am happy that Elan is wrestling with these things, and I don't mind that it was a part of this comic. It fitted here. Of course, if we get this pathos every other week, it may well lose its effect and I'll be less happy. But let's see...

[Xenon]

best. headstone. evar!

[DSCrankshaw]

I was. It's just that I don't think Hinjo would be all sympathetic that Therkla died. For all he's concerned: Therkla worked with Kubota and Kubota made deals with the devils.

If he found out that Elan went and buried Therkla, he may not take that lightly.

Especially if Elan tells him what V did to Kubota. He'll probably assume Elan and V are trying to screw him over.

While granted Diago probably told Hinjo everything, Hinjo's probably going to maintain an air of suspicion. Therkla got killed by Kubota...so where is Kubota?
We're talking about the Paladin who was willing to give Belkar a second chance. I don't think he'd assume Elan's a traitor for showing sympathy to a morally-ambiguous ninja.

[Kabarakh]

I really liked that strip (as I love character development, no matter if it says "I'm an idiot" or if it's something like Haley's secret/glibberish)

I'd really like to see the devil back in flesh and blood, if only for the scars ;)

Oh, and to all those who asked why Durkon didn't cast True Rez to do the Roysurrection:
Range: Touch

(if he had the Lvls to cast the spell)

[Holammer]

Good thing Elan did not sunder that +3 rapier showing off. Durkon could have done it with a hammer and chisel. You know... Dwarf? A fitting gravestone however.

[Dalek Kommander]

I get a sinking feeling that Hinjo's not gonna be nice to Elan. As a paladin, he thinks evil=evil, so to him, Therkla is just as bad as Kubota.


No, Hinjo was purposefully introduced as a striking contrast between Miko's alignment of "Lawful Stupid" and what actually being Lawful Good looks like. I call your attention to the aptly named strip, "A Tale of Two Paladins":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html

I'm not worried about Hinjo being nice to Elan, because Elan is truly good. Elan may have made mistakes, but he did all of them by trying to be good, like trying to redeem Therkla to the side of good. That's a good thing to try to do.

If Hinjo has a problem with anybody, it will be with Varsuuvius. Not so much because the deed he did was "intrinsically" evil, it actually had good consequences in that the world is now safe from Kubota's evil, but it wasn't a lawful way to do it, and V didn't do it because he was a good person. Varsuuvius is probably true neutral at best, and possibly Chaotic Neutral with Evil tendencies. That isn't going to sit any better with Hinjo's goodness than it does with Elan's, and Hinjo is lawful on top of that.

[Freelance Henchman]

A touching tribute. But is OOTS the story of Elan now? Bring Roy back already! :smallfrown:

[Moak]

Roy isn't actually in the Lawful Good afterlife at the moment, but outside the gates. Now whether or not he's gaming with his archon or watching what's happening...

Yeah.

And that's CAN be why Roy,seeing what's happening,decide to meet her BEFORE she pass the gates of her afterlife...

I can't understand why everyone says that Roy is in the LG afterlife...

The biggest problem could be that probably Therkla worship the Southern Gods,and is on another side of the mountain (strip 486 docet)

[Blaznak]

Awwww......

Rich is good at pulling the occasional heartstring, you know... I liked this strip.

Well, Later!

[Mauve Shirt]

Loved this strip. Kickass headstone indeed.
I bet the resolution of the Vaarsuvius bit will wait til 600.

Gah, on another topic I had a dream last night that Miko came back and everyone here was surprised.

[Hwarinengwion]

I think this brings up an interesting point, Roy got into the LG afterlife not by being LG all the time but by striving to be so. It strikes me that Therkla was trying very hard to be good in the end, I wonder if this will make a difference for her.

And yes totally bad ass headstone, but would you really want a DEMON (or a devil for that mater) standing above you for all eternity!!!!

[nowiwantmydmg]

...Unexpected. Feels a bit like filler though.

[warmachine]

What is Durkon doing to Kazumi in the third panel? Durkon, as a healer, has a license to do things even husbands aren't allowed to do but the look on Kazumi's face suggests it is something that only Daigo should be allowed to do. That must be a violation of some clerical oath.

Either that or Azurites have a loose attitude to monogamy.

[Zolem]

And yes totally bad ass headstone, but would you really want a DEMON (or a devil for that mater) standing above you for all eternity!!!!

A slain one crying tears of remorse for all eternity? Heck yeah, a defeated devil is badass. I also want the words "I told you I was sick." writen on my headstone.

[Mauve Shirt]

I'm sure he's telling her her baby is going to be fine.

[DSCrankshaw]

What is Durkon doing to Kazumi in the third panel? Durkon, as a healer, has a license to do things even husbands aren't allowed to do but the look on Kazumi's face suggests it is something that only Daigo should be allowed to do. That must be a violation of some clerical oath.

Either that or Azurites have a loose attitude to monogamy.
The consensus is that he's just informed her that the baby's okay. I missed that at first, but I think it's sweet, not... um, what you're thinking.

[SPoD]

What is Durkon doing to Kazumi in the third panel? Durkon, as a healer, has a license to do things even husbands aren't allowed to do but the look on Kazumi's face suggests it is something that only Daigo should be allowed to do. That must be a violation of some clerical oath.

Either that or Azurites have a loose attitude to monogamy.

He's checking on the health of the baby, using his ranks in Heal. His smile indicates that the baby is OK; he presumably says so to Kazumi off-panel in Panel 2, and then she smiles (with a tear) in Panel 3 because she now knows that her baby will live. I thought it was a nice way of communicating to the audience that the baby will be fine without belaboring the point with more dialogue.

EDIT: Ninja'd several times over.

[Ramian]

awww, now i am totally misty eyed, somehow she deserved better!

[Saint Nil]

...That has to be without a doubt the coolest thing Elan has ever done. Lately I was kind of upset by the comic, but this was to great to ignore. Thank you Giant.

[Adrilimos]

When I die, I'm gonna have that headstone, but with 'KICKASS HEADSTONE' carved into it instead of my name.

And this strip almost made me cry. Now I don't know if this comic or this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0593.html) comic deserves the title of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) comic the most. :smallfrown:

[warmachine]

He's [Durkon] checking on the health of the baby, using his ranks in Heal. His smile indicates that the baby is OK; he presumably says so to Kazumi off-panel in Panel 2, and then she smiles (with a tear) in Panel 3 because she now knows that her baby will live. I thought it was a nice way of communicating to the audience that the baby will be fine without belaboring the point with more dialogue.
I'd expect a sense of relief from Kazumi, rather than a tear of joy, but despite that, it is a better explanation than a loose attitude to monogamy.

[dogmac]

Awww, you are so sweet, Elan.

[Scarlet Knight]

This was the perfect bard story.

1) The handsome minstrel.
2) The beautiful villainess who falls for him.
3) The hero remains true to his love.
4) Although unrequited, her love causes the villainess to turn away from evil and save the hero’s friends, losing her life in the attempt.
5) She dies in his arms as he tries to save her.
6) The hero captures the villain.
7) Fate intervenes to destroy the villain.
8) The hero builds a great monument to the fallen beauty.

Elan will be earning free pub drinks until the day he dies with this tale…

[mistformsquirrl]

Also, that is one pimp headstone :smallcool:

Seriously. If you've go to die tragically, that's a hulluva way to be remembered <o.@>

[banjo1985]

Awwww, well poor Elan. His girlfriend is far away, maybe dead for all he knows, and he blames himself for the death of the next cool girl he meets. V is off the rails so he's got hardly any friends left...

Still, that is one hell of a gravestone. :smallbiggrin:

[synnerman]

Okay, now I'm just sad. Come on Elan, you can put level-up stat points somewhere besides Charisma. Your character concept won't be too heavily violated.

Or....it may be time for a tome or two of mental development. (I'm not going to look up the actual name for the items that give inherent attribute increases) :)

[Frozen_Northman]

I really like Elan. This strip shows quite a bit of personal growth for him, while keeping true to his core nature.

He's not smart, or particularly wise. But he recognizes this. Which is a huge step in and of itself. Plus, he's able to articulate why he idolizes Roy, even if his view is somewhat skewed.

Makes me wish Roy was watching Elan at this particular moment.

[AKA_Bait]

Good comic. You know, as always.

So much for the 'speak with dead to show Kubota had it coming' idea too. Unless they are going to dig up her corpse that is.


Makes me wish Roy was watching Elan at this particular moment.

He might be. We don't really know what Roy is up to right now.

[Deme]

It's not that this is the best eulogy for Therkla. That in no way takes away from how touching it is. It's not even a really good eulogy for Therkla -- Elan knows this. He doesn't know what to say, so everything he says after he admits this (at the very start of the eulogy) is him being entirely open and sincere to her.

and that is what makes it touching.

and as for tomb stones...yeah, it's kickass. yes, the actual inscription could have been better. But consider it another part of the apology: a sincere "it's not you, it really actually is me."

also....I really just want to hug Elan.

[mikoto]

Am I the only one that thinks that if people come to the island later they're going to assume that "Therkla" refers to the demon :smalleek:

[Neopolis]

E-excuse me... I have something in my eye.:smallfrown:

[Ikialev]

[EDIT]We already knew the year was 1184 from strip #489, because it's on the graph showing Belkar's evil quotient.

Umm, I believe that year in this strip was marked by Roy'sHeadSign.

Anyway. Cool headstone. D:

[Rollin]

Well, it's not the least sentimental epitaph ever written...that would be Lester Moore's. And I have to agree that Elan is just trying his best, knowing it's not as good as it should be--a state I myself know well enough. Still...

:smallfrown: Oh, the Elanity!

[moonpuppy61]

Truly awesome eulogy and headstone. Elan is edging out V as my favorite OotS character.

thank you!

[Shatteredtower]

First of all, I have to commend the Giant on the little touches. Whether it's the expression on Kazumi's face, or the fact that two of the paladins in strip #447 were later identified in War and XPs as Yunji and Jiaya (in the bonus strips 313a and 314a), there are just so many treats in the details.


It's just me I know, but Elan acted like a real idiot this strip.

Hmm. I'd say he was inept, rather than an idiot. He certainly admitted as such by opening with the statement, "So, uh... I don't really know what I'm supposed to say here."

In fairness, few people at funerals do. Even those trained to conduct them falter at times, especially if they're burying someone close to them.


Than is all just Elan speaking of himself...

In fairness to Elan, this sort of thing happens all too often at funerals. A lot of people wind up talking more about themselves than the departed. ("John always supported my work, and...")

Furthermore, I don't see any point to holding a proper eulogy if you're the only one at the funeral. A personal conversation with the departed, of the sort some people have when they go visit the grave of a loved one, feels entirely more appropriate. What appeals to me the most about what he says is that he opens with an apology, then opens up to her in a way we haven't seen him do with anyone else. It's not surprising that Elan wouldn't know what to do, but have we ever seen him admit as much to anyone, even himself, before now? If not, he's just shown her more trust than even Roy and Haley, the two people that appear to mean the most to him.

Besides, look at the gravestone. Elan didn't even know how old Therkla was, and he probably knew her better than anyone save Kubota. Well, maybe her parents as well, but it seems unlikely that Therkla would have told Elan how to find them, assuming they're both still alive. In any case, she's a ninja of half-orc descent. Haley would have nothing on her when it comes to being secretive, so it's unlikely that there'd have been much to tell anyone who'd attended the event.


... how he misses Roy...

Following from his declared belief that Roy, the person he looks up to more than anyone, could have saved her. It even gives him a chance to praise her meaningfully, by noting that Roy shared at least one of her most admirable traits, rather than phrasing it to state that she shared his traits.


I suppose that is everything any girl can wish, to be remembered as your potentially cool girlfriend.

I don't think that's fair. Elan's name isn't mentioned on the gravestone. If anything, the epitaph is an admission of his own failure and of the fact that she deserved better, even though he couldn't have given it to her.

I'll admit that few people would get that from reading the stone, but it would make sense to the buried party. The sentiment probably would have frustrated her to no end, knowing he'd still remain true to Haley, but it still admits that she deserved the chance. Whether or not he could have provided it doesn't matter any more than the fact that he couldn't save her life -- something else he feels she deserved from him. There's a good chance that the combination of the two confuses the issue further for Elan, which seems a very human thing to do.

There's also a slight possibility that it could also land him in hot water with Haley, if she ever finds out he left it there. I think that's a fairly minor point at best, however.

[baerdith]

THAT was totally cool!

and Elan, that was the definition of a Hero!

[Warren Dew]

It's just me I know, but Elan acted like a real idiot this strip.

That's Elan's purpose in life - to be the "real idiot" that everyone loves anyway. Well, make that "almost everyone", I guess.


Interesting to see the different ways being apart forces the characters to develop. Elan has been an irresponsible twit for most of the strip, and he's starting to understand that actions have consequences, and not everyone gets a happy ending. He's feeling for the first time like he's in over his head, and he's going to need to take responsibility.

Possibly. Alternatively, he's going to need someone to take responsibility for him - specifically, going to need Roy back. Maybe he'll realize he really should be helping Vaarsuvius. That's what I'm hoping for.


Contrast with Vaarsuvius, who for the first time has come up against a serious problem that can't be solved with magic, and is losing his/her mind in his/her refusal to accept defeat, to the point of turning on teammates.

I would say, "contrast with Vaarsuvius, who for the first time is in a situation where the rest of the team isn't helping, and has to find a solution alone."


We don't know that at all. Eugene is a jerk, but the implication is that he'd be getting into the Lawful Good heaven if not for the Blood Oath.

More than that. In Start of Darkness we get to see that Eugene really isn't a jerk after all ... he just put his family ahead of "wasting time on petty revenge".

In addition, with respect to visiting Roy by taking the form of a being of pure good and law, (a) he seems to be more clearly lawful good than Roy, who barely squeaks by, whether or not he's "pure", and (b) it's clear he's allowed to manifest to Roy to pass on information about the blood oath.

Incidentally, someone mentioned looking up to Roy as an older brother, but I'd suggest Roy is more of a father figure to him.


I was. It's just that I don't think Hinjo would be all sympathetic that Therkla died. For all he's concerned: Therkla worked with Kubota and Kubota made deals with the devils.

If he found out that Elan went and buried Therkla, he may not take that lightly.

I agree that Hinjo would be unsympathetic - in fact, we know that, because he's already been unsympathetic in this respect. However, I can't see him caring about what happened to the body, as long as it wasn't taken to be resurrected or turned into an undead.


I'd expect a sense of relief from Kazumi, rather than a tear of joy, but despite that, it is a better explanation than a loose attitude to monogamy.

In retrospect, I think it's a tear of relief, but it wasn't clear to me what was going on, either. Maybe it would have worked better if Durkon hadn't already been smiling in the first frame?


fallen beauty.

Not picking on you specifically, but why does everyone who likes Therkla assume she's good looking? Is it too much to believe someone could be ugly and still be a good person in the end?

[kunou126]

Everyone is saying Roy and Therkla can't meet in the afterlife because Roy is in the LG afterlife.

Newsflash: Roy isn't.

Eugene is kept out of the LG afterlife due to his oath. Roy has gone to him for help. Roy spent a few months in the LG afterlife, yes. But he has left the mountaintop.

[maxon]

it's clear to me (for the first time *headpalm*) that Elan really did love Roy like a brother. For Elan, Roy was the older brother Nale could never be

Nale could never be indeed given he's Elan's twin.

Sigh. Poor Elan. Poor Therkla. And poor V - what to do, indeed.

[Zordrath]

Plus, Elan and Nale didn't even grow up together :P

@kunou: Which means that Roy is now either floating around in the mortal world or standing in front of the LG afterlife, both places where Therkla probably won't be.

[Fingolfin]

Now that's what I can only call "excellent writership" or how should i put it, well done Roy. With durkon in the back telling her everything's all right with the baby and the tombstone, excellent!

[KIDS]

Do you remember that scene in Hellboy 2 when the giant octopus Cthulhuan creature turns into something beautiful?

Same thing with Therkla and the gravestone. Well done Rich, well done. /salute :)

[Dr. Simon]

Oh come *on* people! How could anyone possibly think Durkon was doing anything illicit to Kazumi?! Not only is he in a room full of people including her husband (who is holding her hand) and her sovereign, Durkon rejected his only love interest on the grounds that she was still married, albeit a pointless sham of a marriage.


On a different note - who got the better epitaph: Therkla or Buffy?

("She saved the world a lot")

[vegetalss4]

that is one awesome headstone

[B.I.T.T.]

That is an elaborate headstone. Let's hope no one casts Stone to Flesh on it or the devil in question is going to have to explain to his devilish friends his new tattoo, either that or start wearing sweater vests (which he'll also have to explain).

Anyway, good comic.

[TwiceDead]

Isn't roy in a waiting zone outside the celestial heaven? maybe he can run into Therkla on her way through to her afterlife.

[the_tick_rules]

I thought he was burying kubota for a bit, like just for show or something. That engraving is pretty high, gonna be hard for someone to read.

[pendell]

New comic is up.

Indeed it is.

*Sniff* .

Beautiful, just beautiful.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[silvadel]

OOTS: 50 years later...

A new god rises of unrequainted love....

Therkla.

(all because that statue became a permanent landmark for people and they over time lent enough spiritual energy to ascend Therkla)

[Dalek Kommander]

Isn't roy in a waiting zone outside the celestial heaven? maybe he can run into Therkla on her way through to her afterlife.

Nope. Even if she turned lawful good at the moment of her death, she's a worshiper of the southern gods and will be processed on the other side of the mountain:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html

That's why he was practically alone after dying in the big battle, even though he was hardly the only good guy who died that day.

[JonahFalcon]

Nice epitaph, Elan. :smallwink:

[JonahFalcon]

Nope. Even if she turned lawful good at the moment of her death, she's a worshiper of the southern gods and will be processed on the other side of the mountain:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html

That's why he was practically alone after dying in the big battle, even though he was hardly the only good guy who died that day.

AND I STILL ROLLED A 22, DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Vectner]

Elan is a pretty classy guy. This was a sweet strip and a great bookend for our favorite (latest) side character.

[JonahFalcon]

Elan is a pretty classy guy. This was a sweet strip and a great bookend for our favorite (latest) side character.

Nah. Still prefer The Oracle, myself.

[pendell]

Besides, they're not his subjects, and his laws, or morals, or mores, do not apply to them.


Kubota *was* a subject of his, and therefore deserving of his protection. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't some Magna Carta-like in AC's laws to the effect that "No Azurite shall be deprived of life, liberty or property except
by due process of law".

In addition, the killing took place within the territory of Azure City. I know the city itself doesn't exist any more, but a legal community isn't a place. It is wherever citizens or subjects of the laws live together under those laws. The ships are as much AC territory as a modern embassy is the territory of its host nation.

Therefore the laws apply, and by law V did with malice aforethought strike down a subject of Azure City. If Hinjo wants to play this by the paladin code, he has no choice but to bring V to trial for murder and punish him accordingly.

OTOH, this could be the day Hinjo decides to be a ruler instead of a paladin.

Then again, there's a third resolution that allows him to have it both ways:


1. Elan tells Hinjo the truth.
2. After prior agreement, V pleads guilty.
3. Hinjo sentences V to community service, said community service being
the saving of the world from the Snarl and the finding of Haley Starshine.
Sentencing V to save the lives of every human and deity in existence -- as well as miscellaneous elves and goblins -- should more than balance the pans of justice for the death of Kubota.

Another alternative is banishment -- leave AC and never return.

Additional part of the sentence: V is sentenced to trance immediately and not return until s/he has fully recovered, for the safety of the city.


Such a course of action would allow everyone to follow the letter of the law while still allowing V to continue on the quest of the OOTS. It also means that Hinjo doesn't have to try to arrest V, which could very well result in the destruction of the fleet. It also means Hinjo can remain a Paladin.

Re: Therkla not returning because of another woman. Pshaw. There's plenty of other fish in the sea. I was hoping she could get together with Thog...

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Trobby]

Of course this is important. Elan may not be the best man for the job, but he's the only one who really does care about what happens to Therkla. She may have been a bit love-crazy, and not really good per-se, but loyal to the people that she likes, but she meant something to Elan, if only for a short while, and as the only remaining person who cares enough to do it, giving her a proper burial is the most important thing Elan could do.

I think Hinjo would approve of his actions...evil character or not.

Also, I'm sorry, but I just laughed out loud when I saw what Elan wrote for her epitaph. Too. Cute.

[HOLEkevin]

Man, if that demon gets turned back to flesh, he's gonna have a hard time explaining that to the missus.

[Aslaug]

Oh...my...Gods...

Elan, I'm sorry I ever laughed at you (well, not really). That was one amazing strip. Elan apparently has some real depth, however weird that may sound.

And he can actually be genuinely cool...which is equally weird.

And he found the right things to say at the right time...which is even weirder...

So amidst all this weirdness, I'm going to print this page and hang it on my wall. This one is just amazing.

[R.O.A.]

I actually think Therkla just might show up in the LG afterlife. At the very least, she might try to get in.

See, Therkla was motivated to both defend her lord and her beloved. She's clearly Lawful. And when she had to betray one of them, she chose her beloved - a Good act, given that her lord was evil and he forced her to make the choice.

I totally agree. She reminds me of the LG assassin character in my party.
At the very leasts she's LN.

[JonahFalcon]

Roy isn't actually in the Lawful Good afterlife at the moment, but outside the gates. Now whether or not he's gaming with his archon or watching what's happening...

Actually, he is in Celestia. He doesn't have to be inside the gate - that's just for eternal rest.

Meanwhile, Shogo is in Arborea (and funny how people forget that the former ruler was chaotic good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html), not lawful good or a Paladin.)

[krossbow]

Man i'm going to laugh if someone turns the devil back to normal and he's like "How'd i get this tattoo?"

[JonahFalcon]

I totally agree. She reminds me of the LG assassin character in my party.
At the very leasts she's LN.

Lawful maybe. Neutral or Good? Maybe not. She was motivated by love, not alignment.

[Enlong]

Okay, um, very nice comic. I thought that Elan's speech was really sweet, and the gravestone is, in fact, the most awesome one I've ever seen, anywhere. Oh, and I liked the subtle little throwback to this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html). Very nice.

Oh, and Elan eulogy was really great. He spoke from the heart or whatever cliché fits. In any case, he's a thousand times better at it than Roy was, trust me.

[Raging Gene Ray]

See, Therkla was motivated to both defend her lord and her beloved. She's clearly Lawful. And when she had to betray one of them, she chose her beloved - a Good act, given that her lord was evil and he forced her to make the choice.

Yes, but she told her lord to "go ahead, take over any small country you can. just don't piss off Hinjo too much." In other words, forget about anyone you might step on, I don't have crushes on any of them. As long as it keeps you and Hinjo (and, by extension, Elan) alive.


That said, she might end up in the same subsection of Celestia/the Abyss with Miko, where you aren't tortured, but forced to watch your mistakes over and over again, powerless to do anything about them, creating your own hell in your mind.

[Dalek Kommander]

Therefore the laws apply, and by law V did with malice aforethought strike down a subject of Azure City. If Hinjo wants to play this by the paladin code, he has no choice but to bring V to trial for murder and punish him accordingly.

Hinjo has already been in the position of knowing full well who (Kubota) was behind a crime (hiring assassins to kill Hinjo) and he didn't bring that to trial, because he knew it wouldn't actually serve the interests of law or goodness to do something he knows isn't going to work. Hinjo did not lose his paladinhood then for being practical, because he is Lawful Good, not "Lawful Dumb".

Varsuuvius utterly destroyed the evidence of his unlawful actions, making it just as technically difficult to prove as any of Kubota's justice-evading tricks. Varsuuvius also doesn't have any of Kubota's lawfully-evil motives for peacefully submitting to lawful arrest and a time-consuming trial, and he's the one guy who can defeat fifty-foot tall demons.

I do expect Hinjo at the very least to give Varsuuvius a teeth-gritting "I never want to see you in my town again" speech, but that might be all he is really able to do, under these circumstances.

[Ron Miel]

A touching tribute. But is OOTS the story of Elan now? Bring Roy back already! :smallfrown:

I think that Elan will turn out to be the central character of the whole arc.



Kubota *was* a subject of his, and therefore deserving of his protection. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't some Magna Carta-like in AC's laws to the effect that "No Azurite shall be deprived of life, liberty or property except
by due process of law".

In addition, the killing took place within the territory of Azure City. [snip for length]

I don't think so. There are two possibilities. Either the Island is part of the territory of some KIngdom, in which case they are subject to that Kingdom's laws, and only their authorities can bring charges. Or the island is unclaimed, in which case it's the same situation as the bandits of Wooden Forest: they are outside any kingdom, thus there are no laws to break.



Re: Therkla not returning because of another woman. Pshaw. There's plenty of other fish in the sea. I was hoping she could get together with Thog...

I thought she'd be a good match for Belkar.

[JonahFalcon]

Hinjo has already been in the position of knowing full well who (Kubota) was behind a crime (hiring assassins to kill Hinjo) and he didn't bring that to trial, because he knew it wouldn't actually serve the interests of law or goodness to do something he knows isn't going to work. Hinjo did not lose his paladinhood then for being practical, because he is Lawful Good, not "Lawful Dumb".

Varsuuvius utterly destroyed the evidence of his unlawful actions, making it just as technically difficult to prove as any of Kubota's justice-evading tricks. Varsuuvius also doesn't have any of Kubota's lawfully-evil motives for peacefully submitting to lawful arrest and a time-consuming trial, and he's the one guy who can defeat fifty-foot tall demons.

I do expect Hinjo at the very least to give Varsuuvius a teeth-gritting "I never want to see you in my town again" speech, but that might be all he is really able to do, under these circumstances.

Hinjo is not going to teeth-grit. He's bound by his code and will take action. Keep in mind, he was going to take action against his uncle before Miko decided to take a little too direct action. Hinjo wanted to arrest his uncle, full well knowing it could lead to his execution.

[Yoyoyo]

I think that Elan will turn out to be the central character of the whole arc.

I agree. Oracle said Elan's getting the happy ending -- whether it's happy for Roy remains to be seen.


I don't think so. There are two possibilities. Either the Island is part of the territory of some KIngdom, in which case they are subject to that Kingdom's laws, and only their authorities can bring charges. Or the island is unclaimed, in which case it's the same situation as the bandits of Wooden Forest: they are outside any kingdom, thus there are no laws to break.

While this is right technically, I doubt that the law of the ship has been so formerly considered. I think all of the AC folks just assume that the law of AC applies. And Elan and Durkon would just follow AC law because they are LG and its what they would do. V, on the otherhand, is all for making your point -- AC law doesn't apply here and, more importantly, doesn't apply to her -- so whatever law may apply, V won't care.

[Scarlet Knight]

Not picking on you specifically, but why does everyone who likes Therkla assumes she's good looking? Is it too much to believe someone could be ugly and still be a good person in the end?

Good question. I could say it was because Elan referred to her as “sorta cute” but I think it’s simply that we look at people we like through the veil of affection. If you dislike someone , they look “green”. If you like them , they have an exotic olive complexion.

By the same token, I believe Hinjo would be sympathetic.Hinjo is not only lawful, he is good with a heart. I’d like to think that once he heard the story, Hinjo would understand Elan’s actions & respect Therkla, who fell while trying to rescue people on his own junk.

[TARINunit9]

Hell yeah that's a kicka** headstone! :smallamused:

(I don't have anything else to say. I just liked that awesome headstone)

[randomnondescri]

Awww....

As far as the inscription, well, it seems like that was the one thing she wanted...

[Eric]

Kubota *was* a subject of his, and therefore deserving of his protection.

A subject who having broke the law loses almost all of the protections and rights of a citizen.

[JonahFalcon]

A subject who having broke the law loses almost all of the protections and rights of a citizen.

Pssst. Having someone outside your rule execute your criminals is worse. It undercuts your authority and in Hinjo's country, at least, they have something we like to call due process.

[Eric]

And I loved this scene too.

V's out of his depth and doesn't trust Durkon or Elan anywhere as much as he did Roy and Haley.

Elan's out of his depth and doesn't know why (I'll get on to that later) but he at least knows it.

And Elan is out of his depth because he's trying to be Roy, and he can't. He's done the best he can and he's trying to do better. If Roy's watching or is asked, he'll tell Elan that he couldn't have hoped for anyone better.

And Elan thinks that if he were just a little more like Roy maybe he could have seen a way around Therkla's death. Or at least seen to it she could have wanted to live.

Oddly, Haley is having the same problems: Belkar is unmanageable and Celia is all problem and no solution. She's at least realised that she can't be like Roy so she isn't getting the angst.

Which is either better for her or more impressive for Elan. With pain, we are born and with pain we grow.

And who would want Elan to BE Roy anyway?

Pity there's nobody there to tell him that.

[Yoyoyo]

Haley has a history of being attractive to many. See:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html

Therkla is, at best, a butterface. Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .

[Medieve]

Thats not right... Therkla died 593. 1184 seems like such a random number.

[JonahFalcon]

Haley has a history of being attractive to many. See:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html

Therkla is, at best, a butterface. Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .

How do you know? All we know is that she has green skin and two prominent fangs. How is that different from Taura in the Vorkosigan Saga?

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/c1/c7524.jpg

[Eric]

Pssst. Having someone outside your rule execute your criminals is worse. It undercuts your authority and in Hinjo's country, at least, they have something we like to call due process.

Uh, is it an execution now? I thought it was evil murder:smalltongue:

And due process is honoured more in its breech than its application.

I wonder if this episode will, when added to the trouble Kabuto has caused *because* of Hinjo's morals, will make Hinjo accept his uncle's actions as appropriate, even though they wouldn't be ones *he* could accept.

This could do it because whichever way he goes, he's bad from *some* point of view and if he'd been more pragmatic about the exegiencies of the situation, this problem would not have arisen.

We may have a score of strips to see...

[kc0bbq]

A subject who having broke the law loses almost all of the protections and rights of a citizen.There is no indication of that. We've seen that people convicted legally of crimes in AC get incarcerated, we see no evidence that they are outcast.

We've seen repeatedly in this strip what "proper" LG does. We've seen it in many of Hinjo's actions, in Roy's background check in Celestia, etc., etc.

[Faramir]

Wow. Just a perfect strip this time around.

[Eric]

Hinjo is not going to teeth-grit. He's bound by his code and will take action. Keep in mind, he was going to take action against his uncle before Miko decided to take a little too direct action. Hinjo wanted to arrest his uncle, full well knowing it could lead to his execution.

***As a paladin*** he is bound.

But he's a ruler too.

Paladins don't make good rulers. There's too many ways to go wrong and if you're predictable (as the strict code of paladinhood is) you can be forced into a no-win situation.

Keep in mind, the lying was for the good of the gate and neither Shojo nor OotS were working for anything other than this goal (despite what Miko wanted to believe). Ergo, if Shojo had gone to prison, it would have been a quick exoneration. Except the Hob's turned up too soon for that to happen.

And lying isn't a capital offense.

[Eric]

There is no indication of that. We've seen that people convicted legally of crimes in AC get incarcerated, we see no evidence that they are outcast.

We've seen repeatedly in this strip what "proper" LG does. We've seen it in many of Hinjo's actions, in Roy's background check in Celestia, etc., etc.

We've seen what strict adherence to the letter of the law does too.

Maybe, because nobles are believed by default, they are held to a much stricter rule and given much more punishment if they break the rules. Same as we (should) be doing to those who are supposed to be authoritative. E.g. politicians, policemen, judges, etc. When they break the rules, that is supposed to be a far worse crime than if an ordinary citizen does it. Why? Because with great power comes great responsibility. And if the censure for not living up to that repsonsibility is not higher, what's the point of the responsibility? It's just a word then.

[Jammeez]

Kick-ass Strip! :frown: *snif*

[Yoyoyo]

How do you know? All we know is that she has green skin and two prominent fangs. How is that different from Taura in the Vorkosigan Saga?

Don't know her. Is she hot? :smallbiggrin:

Usually, for humans, green skin and fangs are not the most attractive qualities. But eye of the beholder and all that. Heck, for all I know, she has a lousy body too.

[Berserk Monk]

I want to know what sort of puns Elan made while he was carving into the giant petrified devil.
:elan: I'm a STONE cold killer.
Probably something a little bit more clever than that though.
Also, loved the tombstone. I want my grave to look like that.

[Eran of Arcadia]

So the whole thing reminded me of the funeral for Donny - is that even a spoiler anymore? in The Big Lebowski, with the person giving the eulogy getting sidetracked and talking about their own problems. But spending eternity buried under a petrified demon beats a coffee can, or the Dude's beard. Rock on.

[GamingBuddha]

Because "True Resurrection" is a clerical spell of the 9th (spell) level, requiring a cleric of at least 17th (character) level to cast. Durkon is not at that level. I don't know what the estimated level is for the characters of the Order of the Stick, but they are nowhere near level 17.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm


Just my 2 eurocent!
By RAW, and if the actual D&D version says the same as the SRD, True Resurrection is of no use to Roy as his body has been made into a construct.

[Dervag]

Wow. Just a perfect strip this time around.Oh yeah. This was great. And that is, indeed, a kickass headstone.


Uh, is it an execution now? I thought it was evil murder:smalltongue:

And due process is honoured more in its breech than its application.You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to have an attorney present during questioning. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Do you understand these rights?

Seriously, due process is routinely honored in its application in civilized countries. In fact, I would argue that one of the ways you can tell whether a society is civilized is by whether or not it has principles of due process. Nations without law enforcement agencies that honor due process tend to fall prey to reigns of terror.
__________________________


We've seen what strict adherence to the letter of the law does too.

Maybe, because nobles are believed by default, they are held to a much stricter rule and given much more punishment if they break the rules. Same as we (should) be doing to those who are supposed to be authoritative. E.g. politicians, policemen, judges, etc. When they break the rules, that is supposed to be a far worse crime than if an ordinary citizen does it. Why? Because with great power comes great responsibility. And if the censure for not living up to that repsonsibility is not higher, what's the point of the responsibility? It's just a word then.History suggests that nobles will get lighter sentences, not heavier ones. Justice suggests that the punishment for abusing authority should be harsh. Experience suggests that it rarely is. Few authority figures want to condemn their friends (and possibly themselves) to harsh punishment.

[Lamech]

Uh, is it an execution now? I thought it was evil murder

And due process is honoured more in its breech than its application.


Umm... and what V did breached due process, that in no way, shape or form, "honors due process". Kubota going free would not breach due process, if he did it through a trial. Due process means sometimes murders go free, sometimes innocents die, sometimes the police can't get the evidence. That is what the laws mean. Take the double jeopardy law, if you did in fact kill someone and then at your court case go free, that's it for the prosecution of you. You can go confess to the news media, (assuming you didn't lie under oath) and they don't get to re-prosecute you.



I wonder if this episode will, when added to the trouble Kabuto has caused *because* of Hinjo's morals, will make Hinjo accept his uncle's actions as appropriate, even though they wouldn't be ones *he* could accept.

This could do it because whichever way he goes, he's bad from *some* point of view and if he'd been more pragmatic about the exegiencies of the situation, this problem would not have arisen.

We may have a score of strips to see...
First off Hinjo is lawful good so he probably won't. Secondly it would be blantaly ignoring the lawful authority of the courts and probably cause him to fall for a code violation. Everyone else sees this: noble who Hinjo doesn't like disappears and Hinjo falls. That will look insanely bad.
Even if he can not report this to the courts, he can't lie. That is very clearly in the code, and the other nobles will ask questions.

act with honor (not lying...
The other nobles will go umm... no we want this guy brought to stand trial. No matter what happens Hinjo loses support unless the goes after V.

Of course, Hinjo will be fine in Elan lies, so its all up to Elan now.

[Eric]

First off Hinjo is lawful good so he probably won't.

Eugene (LG) had no problems lying.

His son, Roy (LG) didn't have problems with it either.

**Paladins*** have a problem with lying, but there's two people in that body:

The Paladin who is head of his order.
The Man who is in charge of all these people.

[Linkavitch]

So sad. . .and, yet, so completely kick-awesome!:biggrin:

[chiasaur11]

I agree with the majority.

A kickass headstone is, if you can't save a person, the next best gift you can give them.

[Mojique]

What an epitaph!

And now back to Haley & Co.

[Cthclain]

A rather nice tribute from Elan while it was fairly clumsy and uncertain he really tried to give her the best in the end.

I think he's finally growing into a leader; he knows that things are going badly and he's trying prevent that from happening again. I think Therkla's death is going to push him towards trying to improve himself and take responsibility.

and of course awesome headstone.

[Kaytara]

A wonderful comic. I'll admit I was very eager for some kind of resolution with Vaarsuvius, but the end of the previous strip made it obvious that the solution was to be postponed for a bit.

Very touching, and very Elan.

I actually think Hinjo might be rather sympathetic for Therkla's fate. For one thing, I believe he respected her loyalty to Kubota and her unwillingness to rat him out. When she's arrested, he just says "Take her away, then" after hearing her out, with a plain expression, not the angry eyebrows he'd probably have if he were dealing with someone he disliked. Besides, it were her actions that ultimately saved the Katos, who have told Hinjo what happened.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

:smallfrown: I guess Therkla won't be coming back now that the Giant has dropped a 50 foot tall stone statue on her head (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DroppedABridgeOnHim).

[B. Dandelion]

That was both extremely fitting and lovely. Poor Therkla could have made somebody a really cool girlfriend. I'm sorry she didn't get to. And Elan only continues to become more lovable.

I don't know if Hinjo would have been as unsympathetic as some people here seem to think. Yes, he arrested Therkla, after she confessed that her employer had ordered her to kill both him and Elan, but he also offered to work out a reduced sentence with her. He certainly didn't display the naked hostility he had towards Kubota (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html), and the fact that she wrecked Kubota's plans for killing Kazumi and Daigo spoke well of her. I could see him granting her a sort of parole if not an outright pardon.

[Pronounceable]

Boy, Elan sure knows his theatrics.

[SliderDaFeral]

Ya know, as much as I cannot stand Elan ... kudos for character development in this strip, Giant. Looks like the doofus is finally getting some real-world leadership training.

... and yeah, totally kick-ass headstone! :smallsmile:

I feel like bastardizing an Ursula K. LeGuin line.

"When dealing with sleep-deprived wizards grows unprofitable, bury the dead.
When burying the dead grows unprofitable, mourn the hell out of your role model."

Oh, and :elan:+1000 cool points for the headstone.

[Draz74]

Interesting to see the different ways being apart forces the characters to develop. Elan has been an irresponsible twit for most of the strip, and he's starting to understand that actions have consequences, and not everyone gets a happy ending. He's feeling for the first time like he's in over his head, and he's going to need to take responsibility.

Contrast with Vaarsuvius, who for the first time has come up against a serious problem that can't be solved with magic, and is losing his/her mind in his/her refusal to accept defeat, to the point of turning on teammates.

We don't know that at all. Eugene is a jerk, but the implication is that he'd be getting into the Lawful Good heaven if not for the Blood Oath.

I think this was entirely in character for Elan, as well as deftly providing some development and character exposition. He's got a pretty clear case of ADD, so getting distracted and talking about how he missed Roy isn't off the mark. Elan's had his best friend killed, his girlfriend has been MIA for months, and he believes he failed at rescuing the damsel in distress. He's got a lot on his not-too-bright mind, and his expressions of sorrow and self-doubt are, IMHO, what most people in his situation would be thinking. He says it out loud, because the author knows that using the device of a eulogy would be an effective way to express these things, and would be less boring than thought balloons.

As for the girlfriend thing... look at the comic where she died. Her last words were practically begging to be his girlfriend. He made a genuinely kind gesture with that headstone, in honor of her last wish.

All well-stated. The only thing I would add is that Elan and V's contrasting developments both, IMHO, point to how much Roy is needed as the leadership in these quests. Elan is only figuring out some of the ways he needs to grow up because he has Roy's example to fall back on, and if anyone could convince V to calm down and approach things a little more sensibly (and I'm not sure anyone could), it's Roy.

[RosesOnConcrete]

Oh, Elan. ♥

And yes, that is the most awesome tombstone ever, full stop.

*realizes I just echoed at least half the posts in this thread*

[Kato]

Woohoo, I want the very same tombstone!

otherwise, 'nother good strip... kinda lacked the humor of the series, but,,, it wasn't suppossed to be humorous after all ^^'

[CarpeGuitarrem]

That was a totally awesome headstone. Nice use of previous stuff to tie it in. And insult added to injury...not only is that demon summoned by an imp, but he also gets owned by an insomniac gender-uncertain wizard and turned into a headstone! Pwnage.

[sihnfahl]

Plus, Elan and Nale didn't even grow up together :P
Actually, they did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html).

However, their parents had a divorce; Mom took Elan and Dad took Nale when both were still babies and never mentioned the other.

[Kaytara]

I just realised Elan seems to have used the same ability he displays here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html

Chekov's Gun indeed. ^^

[SometimesKate]

My opinion is that they weren't together long enough for it to be considered "growing up together". Toddlers remember very little, and have very little influence on one another. Elan didn't even recall he had a brother, and the only reason Nale knew was because his father told him.

I think I may name my next gaming character Therkla. It's about time to dig out that Firefly RPG and give it a whirl.

[Nevitan]

I really liked this comic, except for the part where Elan said "just someone who plays a hero in a comic strip" :smallyuk:.

That sort of, for me at least, took away any meaning of this one.
If Elan says hes just someone in a comic strip It seems like Thelkra dieing didn't really mean anything because it 'just someone in a comic strip'.

But, It was still a good comic.

[AKA_Bait]

By RAW, and if the actual D&D version says the same as the SRD, True Resurrection is of no use to Roy as his body has been made into a construct.

I'm pretty sure that you are misinterpreting that sentence.


This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.

When it says that it can't resurrect constructs it means that it can't resurrect constructs themselves, rather the people who once inhabited the bodies that make up the form of the construct. This is because constructs have no soul. They are just matter powered by a bound elemental spirit. Elementals can be resurrected, their prisons can not be.

Basically it boils down to this:

Roy: Can be brought back through True Rez.
Bone Golem Made From Roy's Corpse (if destroyed): Cannot be brought back through True Rez.

[DrivinAllNight]

I want to know what sort of puns Elan made while he was carving into the giant petrified devil.
:elan: I'm a STONE cold killer.
Probably something a little bit more clever than that though.
Also, loved the tombstone. I want my grave to look like that.

How about ....

:elan: I'm a cold stone killer !!


Also, loved the strip :smallsmile:

[Malacandra]

Yeah, if I can just add a *sniffle*. Lovely strip. :smallcool:

[David Argall]

Hinjo has already been in the position of knowing full well who (Kubota) was behind a crime (hiring assassins to kill Hinjo) and he didn't bring that to trial, because he knew it wouldn't actually serve the interests of law or goodness to do something he knows isn't going to work.
It was not a matter of serving the interests of law. Hinjo simply had no case against Kubota. Hinjo heard 2 people he had never seen before, and who are unavailable to testify in court say Kubota had evil plans. They do not even say they got this information from Kubota. That is simply heresay, practically the same as gossip on the street.



Varsuuvius utterly destroyed the evidence of his unlawful actions, making it just as technically difficult to prove as any of Kubota's justice-evading tricks.
Not true in total. The prime evidence is Elan. His statement is quite sufficient to arrest V on. Whether it is enough to convict can depend, but is not out of the question. And various magic & other items of Kubota were swept overboard. It will not be hard to recover enough to verify most of Elan's story. A good defense attorney can probably get V off [say by making Elan look like an idiot who misunderstood or by convincing the jury that Kubota deserved killing and so they should ignore the law], but the case against V, assuming Elan talks, is orders of magnitude stronger than the one against Kubota was.


Varsuuvius also doesn't have any of Kubota's lawfully-evil motives for peacefully submitting to lawful arrest and a time-consuming trial, and he's the one guy who can defeat fifty-foot tall demons.
He's also the guy who had to run away from the breach because he ran out of spells. She's mucho powerful, but if they insist on bringing him in, her choices are surrender, fleeing, or dying. Victory against a determined effort to get him is not an option.


I do expect Hinjo at the very least to give Varsuuvius a teeth-gritting "I never want to see you in my town again" speech, but that might be all he is really able to do, under these circumstances.
Well, V can Fly and likely escape, and Hinjo has been willing to impose somewhat creative sentences in the past, but his sentence of Belkar isn't encouraging here. It seems likely Hinjo will want V to serve time.



really, "She would have made a pretty cool girlfriend, too"?
WELL THANKS, ELAN. I suppose that is everything any girl can wish, to be remembered as your potentially cool girlfriend.
Well, Therkla would have preferred something like “I birthed 20 quarter-orcs for Elan.”, but she likely would have liked what Elan wrote. It does imply she could have had him if she had been a little luckier, and that is what she wanted. It implies she is just his toy? She was begging to be that.



Loved this strip. Kickass headstone indeed.
I bet the resolution of the Vaarsuvius bit will wait til 600.
Personally, I consider it pretty much just filler. So much so, that I consider it is possible it’s purpose is to pad things out so a big strip will hit 600.



There are two possibilities. Either the Island is part of the territory of some KIngdom, in which case they are subject to that Kingdom's laws, and only their authorities can bring charges. Or the island is unclaimed, in which case it's the same situation as the bandits of Wooden Forest: they are outside any kingdom, thus there are no laws to break.
The captain of a ship was pretty much defined as king of a small kingdom. So no, this is not any sort of lawless wilderness situation. [And Roy was wrong about the legal situation in Wooden Forest. Any ruler who caught the bandits would have deemed the simple fact he caught them as adequate proof he had the authority to hang them.]

[carais]

I wonder how people might get the idea Hinjo would be mad about Elan burying Therkla.

Hinjo might not have been happy with Therkla herself, what with her working for Kubota (and probably being of a rather shady alignment). But he would consider Elan's act, not Therkla. Which is honoring someone he cared about. So what if that someone was maybe even evil? Does that make Elan's deed in any way evil? Not in my book. Quite the contrary, I'd say.

And Hinjo ist good. That, for him, includes a good heart. How could he condemn Elan for something that doesn't hurt anyone and is basically done out of love? Wouldn't work, methinks.

[Traker]

I wonder how people might get the idea Hinjo would be mad about Elan burying Therkla.

Hinjo might not have been happy with Therkla herself, what with her working for Kubota (and probably being of a rather shady alignment). But he would consider Elan's act, not Therkla. Which is honoring someone he cared about. So what if that someone was maybe even evil? Does that make Elan's deed in any way evil? Not in my book. Quite the contrary, I'd say.

And Hinjo ist good. That, for him, includes a good heart. How could he condemn Elan for something that doesn't hurt anyone and is basically done out of love? Wouldn't work, methinks.

You are Right right right. Vary well said

[Dalek Kommander]

Hinjo is not going to teeth-grit. He's bound by his code and will take action. Keep in mind, he was going to take action against his uncle before Miko decided to take a little too direct action. Hinjo wanted to arrest his uncle, full well knowing it could lead to his execution.

Hinjo may do more than teeth-grit, I said that's what he'd do at least. Whether he does more depends on whether he thinks he has a realistic chance to succeed.

Hinjo's uncle betrayed the sacred oath of his order, and lied to him about it his entire life. The fact that this was "his own uncle" just made the crime all the more personally offensive. Also, his uncle was an elderly Aristocrat who wasn't likely to kill his arresting officers with a lightning bolt and fly away.

But as I pointed out before, Hinjo didn't try to arrest Kubota for attempted regicide, even though he had no doubt Kubota was guilty of it. He was not "bound" to press charges because he knew someone was guilty of something, at least not to the degree that he lost his Paladin status over it. He was quite willing to do what he could, but what he could do didn't amount to much.

Can Hinjo legally prove that Kubota is dead at all, with the disintigrated dust of his remains blown into the ocean? Can he risk the lives of the subjects under his protection, by trying to arrest a wizard who can utterly destroy the Azure City fleet with a few well-placed fireballs?

Maybe he has some way to prove his case legally. And maybe he will find a way to subdue the wizard. But if he does take action, he will do it because he is a genuinely lawful and good-hearted person, not just because he's "bound" to mindlessly follow the letter of every law like a wind-up automaton. He's Good, not Dumb.

[Sebastian]

Because "True Resurrection" is a clerical spell of the 9th (spell) level, requiring a cleric of at least 17th (character) level to cast. Durkon is not at that level. I don't know what the estimated level is for the characters of the Order of the Stick, but they are nowhere near level 17.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm


Just my 2 eurocent!

And do you really think they have 25.000 gp in diamonds availlable?

[AKA_Bait]

And do you really think they have 25.000 gp in diamonds availlable?

They might. Haley has been saving up to ransom her dad.

[SteveMB]

I wonder how people might get the idea Hinjo would be mad about Elan burying Therkla.

I thought it was clear that Hinjo was upset that something he badly needed to know about had just happened, and the one person who could fill him in had run off somewhere. Surely he wouldn't object to burying Therkla, though he might have preferred that Elan had at least left a note or something.

[Enigma95]

R. I. P. Therkla.

[Sebastian]

Next page: Durkon dies. On his tombstone Elan will carve "He could have made a pretty long pub tab, given more time"


Any dwarf would be happy to have that on his grave.

"ancient dwarven tradition, we drink a beer for every number in the count"
"You do it for the new year count-down?"
"no, pretty much any time we count" :D

[B. Dandelion]

Well, Therkla would have preferred something like “I birthed 20 quarter-orcs for Elan.”, but she likely would have liked what Elan wrote. It does imply she could have had him if she had been a little luckier, and that is what she wanted. It implies she is just his toy? She was begging to be that.
ISTM you both missed the point. The epitaph doesn't read "she would have made a pretty good girlfriend to me." It says she would have been a pretty good girlfriend. In other words, she was a person deserving of love.

Which was the whole freaking tragedy of her character -- she was deserving of the love that she gave to others and did not get in return, she loved one man who killed her and died in the arms of another who would not lie to her.

Great, now I'm crying again. I mean, damn, literally. I hardly ever actually shed tears even if I am emotionally affected by something. Damn you, Giant.

[ishnar]

My thoughts seem to be a bit different from everyone else's.

I'm thinking that any stranger that walks up to the grave, won't even notice the little grave at the foot of the statue, especially once the flower dies and grass grows over the dirt.

Since this is a world where stone to flesh in a well known spell. I think it more likely that a stranger will assume that the statue IS Therkla, and wonder how such an ugly demon could be a good girlfriend.

[Somber Requiem]

As far as Elan and Therkla... really tragic. Unrequited love is the worst love of all and it was lose lose all ways. I have to wonder if Haley, given some one loving her so completely as to betray their master, would be so noble. At least Elan is honoring her as best he can. Oddly too, Elan is growing up. He's understanding consequences and feeling regret. I have to wonder if Roy is hanging around to see this. I think he'd find it really touching.

As far as V is concerned, if Elan testifies against him then it's pretty open and shut. The question is how can Hinjo respond. He could say 'V helped us in Azure City, killed a noble, so we'll call it even and banish him from the fleet.' Hopefully they don't maroon him. If Hinjo goes for the Good, then he might pardon him (which could be read as forgiving or permissive or self-serving depending on your point of view) or he can call for V's execution. Murder, particularly of a helpless captive, is pretty standardly punished in lawful societies.

Personally I feel that the OotS's time with the refugees is drawing to a close. The threat of Kubota is gone and while the AC situation hasn't been resolved it's something that can be put on a back burner. It's time for Elan and Durkon and V to do what Haley and Belkar did and leave in search of the others. What I suspect is that V will be exiled from the fleet and there will be a showdown with V and Elan and Durkon where V will either breakdown into a crying fit or will finally snap into loco kabanzas. And if Durkon has anti-magic shell, all he has to do is walk up to V, Elan walk up behind, and wizard boy is shut down.

Oddly enough I sort of want the other paladin to go with them. Haley and Belkar picked up Celia. I think I could see Hinjo asking her to accompany them for the good of the world, as AC's contrabution to stopping Zulkon.

[Gitman00]

Possibly. Alternatively, he's going to need someone to take responsibility for him - specifically, going to need Roy back. Maybe he'll realize he really should be helping Vaarsuvius. That's what I'm hoping for.

If that's the way the Giant goes with this, I will consider it very poor writing indeed. A major reason (from a storytelling perspective) for the Order to be separated is to allow each of them to have significant character development as they reconsider why they're in this and what it is going to require of them. Elan has, through the kidnapping and Battle of Azure City arcs, been forced to reach within himself and find depths of resolve and courage that he didn't know were there. For him to, after all that, still be useless without Roy would be poor storytelling indeed. What I expect to see is for Roy to return and the Order to come together again with each of them, including Elan, taking more initiative and ownership of the quest.



I would say, "contrast with Vaarsuvius, who for the first time is in a situation where the rest of the team isn't helping, and has to find a solution alone."

I think you're missing the point a little. We, as the readers, of course know that many of V's victories wouldn't have been possible without the rest of the team. V him/herself is sometimes laughably arrogant, and constantly reminding the others of his/her arcane might. Up until now, Vaarsuvius hasn't had any major defeat that he/she couldn't rationalize away. Heck, V even used magic to solve relationship problems (see #127 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html) and #128 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html)) Now he/she has come across a problem that his/her powers can't solve, and is unwilling or unable to admit it.




More than that. In Start of Darkness we get to see that Eugene really isn't a jerk after all ... he just put his family ahead of "wasting time on petty revenge".

Nah, he's still a jerk. He has never offered Roy any encouragement in his life, we've seen plenty of evidence that he's really not much of a father, and his wife certainly doesn't miss him. Also, see #490 and #491, where Eugene is so utterly self-absorbed that he's actually angry when Roy gets into heaven.


In addition, with respect to visiting Roy by taking the form of a being of pure good and law, (a) he seems to be more clearly lawful good than Roy, who barely squeaks by, whether or not he's "pure", and (b) it's clear he's allowed to manifest to Roy to pass on information about the blood oath.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here... Eugene used an illusion to appear as a being of law and good in the trial, something the actual being of law and good was highly annoyed at. See #487.

EDIT:


All well-stated. The only thing I would add is that Elan and V's contrasting developments both, IMHO, point to how much Roy is needed as the leadership in these quests. Elan is only figuring out some of the ways he needs to grow up because he has Roy's example to fall back on, and if anyone could convince V to calm down and approach things a little more sensibly (and I'm not sure anyone could), it's Roy.

Thank you. :smallsmile: And the same to you; this sums it up well. Roy's absence has forced the rest of the party to fill his role as best they can, and it's forcing them all outside their comfort zones, since he's really the only one of them who is a natural leader.

[Samurai Jill]

Than is all just Elan speaking of himself, how he misses Roy and (my opinion) the author voice telling that Elan is, really, stupid as he seems. Just to close some weird thread. Great way to honor someone that died for you, blockhead. ...Elan thinks she was a super heroine, so this is nice from him. But really, "She would have made a pretty cool girlfriend, too"?
I think Elan was doing the best he could given his limited mental faculties and Therkla's actual record... of, well... killing innocent people for money. The best you could say for her is that she might, maybe, have turned into a halfway-decent demihuman given enough application. It's not as if she even had a particularly tragic backstory- as the giant went to some lengths to show, she had a happy, well-adjusted family life, full educational opportunities and a solid career progression- so if she wants to get neurotic about being stuck between a rock and a hard place, that's her own problem.

Heck, I imagine T's not complaining... much.

[Laurentio II]

Hey Laurentio II, mind that Elan is supposed to be an idiot, and that one can love him or hate him, but he is there for that purpose
I know, I know. Really, I always knew, I know his role in the comic. I even admit that it would be bad, for the comic, to have a less-idiot Elan, or even a less naive one, to say.
But I hate him this strip. Just this, maybe because sometimes you just can't forgive someone for the simple fact that he is smart as a 5 years old children.
Admittedly, the fact that I feel a genuine sentiment (even a negative one) for a fictional character shows how good is the writer. Or that I'm just not the sanest person around, for what matters. Still, again, I'd like to have some words with Elan on the argument of empathy and respect. With a plumb pipe, maybe.
Not, all together: "This is only a comic. This in only a comic. This..."

[Lamech]

Oddly enough I sort of want the other paladin to go with them. Haley and Belkar picked up Celia. I think I could see Hinjo asking her to accompany them for the good of the world, as AC's contrabution to stopping Zulkon.
And then they would be high enough to stop Xykon! Brilliant!:smalltongue:

[Vonriel]

I have to add my vote for a headstone like that. :smallbiggrin:

[Tobimaro]

Now THAT is a great headstone. :biggrin: And I love Elan's exposition.

[Martok]

Okay, honestly. I'm not supposed to tear up just from reading a bloody web-comic....and especially not twice in the same one. :smallfrown:



Elan was officially playing dumb in the last strip. Awesome.
Indeed. This is now my favorite Elan strip of all time!


Very, very, *very* well done Giant.

[Leo_Forestclaw]

Elan, you rock.

That is all.

[Timespike]

I get a sinking feeling that Hinjo's not gonna be nice to Elan. As a paladin, he thinks evil=evil, so to him, Therkla is just as bad as Kubota.

I honestly don't think so. Therkla was, at worst, small "e" evil. In fact, an argument could be made for a shade of neutrality. In any case, she died trying to rescue and save people (even if some of them didn't deserve it). That seems to be the sort of thing Miko would dismiss, but not Hinjo or O-Chul.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Elan, you rock.


A pun worthy of the Dashing Swordsman himself.

[silvadel]

Therkla -- whether or not she achieved neutral alignment in life certainly did or better in death. I could see her in the lawful neutral tending towards good afterlife along with Miko.

Really here we have opposites -- a character who was evil throughout life but reformed at the end even ending up dying for it while in Miko we have exactly the opposite -- a character who was good throughout life and blew it badly at the end.

I still think there is a shot Therkla will eventually ascend as the goddess of unrequainted love -- if her resting place becomes a landmark.

=======================================

As for what Hinjo does with V -- remember -- he even gave Belkar 1 year for his heinous crimes.

[Zolem]

The other nobles will go umm... no we want this guy brought to stand trial. No matter what happens Hinjo loses support unless the goes after V.

Of course, Hinjo will be fine in Elan lies, so its all up to Elan now.

Except that a paladin cannot let sombody get away with telling somthing they know is a lie.

[Ron Miel]

The captain of a ship was pretty much defined as king of a small kingdom.

A military vessel, subject to military law, yes. Civilian ships, ships, no I don't think so. The captain of a merchant ship couldn't hang his crew for mutiny, I don't think. Most of the people on those ships are refugees, not subject to military law. Elan and V are unofficial advisors to Hinjo, and not


So no, this is not any sort of lawless wilderness situation. [And Roy was wrong about the legal situation in Wooden Forest. Any ruler who caught the bandits would have deemed the simple fact he caught them as adequate proof he had the authority to hang them.]

No, it's just that outside of any kingdom the bandits too are not protectted by laws, and have no right to due process. Anyone, including bandits, can be killed without legal reprisal. But Hinjo, as a paladin, is bound by Law, and can't take extra-judicial action. Another ruler might deal with the problem.

[Estovus]

I know, I know. Really, I always knew, I know his role in the comic. I even admit that it would be bad, for the comic, to have a less-idiot Elan, or even a less naive one, to say.
But I hate him this strip. Just this, maybe because sometimes you just can't forgive someone for the simple fact that he is smart as a 5 years old children.
Admittedly, the fact that I feel a genuine sentiment (even a negative one) for a fictional character shows how good is the writer. Or that I'm just not the sanest person around, for what matters. Still, again, I'd like to have some words with Elan on the argument of empathy and respect. With a plumb pipe, maybe.
Not, all together: "This is only a comic. This in only a comic. This..."

You're not responding to any of the other points that other posters have made, specifically the one that Elan is doing what almost everyone ends up doing at funeral speeches. They do that because, while it's meant to be for the deceased, they're really doing it for themselves, to give themselves some sort of absolution with the deceased. Therkla doesn't care, she's dead. Elan cares, though, and he needs to process all the things that have been happening to him recently. Hence, whilst he keeps Therkla in the back of his mind, he's really talking to himself about the current state of affairs.
As for the epitaph on Therkla's gravestone, that's not Elan being a selfish chauvinist. It's Elan feeling bad that she didn't get the affection that he feels she deserved.

As for the reality of it, though, I'm surprised how many people here are forgetting that Therkla was evil; employed by an evil man to kill people. Not just nameless, faceless redshirts, either, but actual people with personalities. She just happened to get a hormonal trip that made her feel giddy about Elan, that doesn't make her good. She got everything she deserved, and not a moment too soon.

[FriskyDingo]

I agree. Oracle said Elan's getting the happy ending -- whether it's happy for Roy remains to be seen.



While this is right technically, I doubt that the law of the ship has been so formerly considered. I think all of the AC folks just assume that the law of AC applies. And Elan and Durkon would just follow AC law because they are LG and its what they would do. V, on the otherhand, is all for making your point -- AC law doesn't apply here and, more importantly, doesn't apply to her -- so whatever law may apply, V won't care.

I thought Elan was supposed to be CG? Sorry if I'm being nitpicky :smallredface:

[AKA_Bait]

Heck, I imagine T's not complaining... much.

Wouldn't go that far. She's probably in the Nine Hells right now wishing she'd told Elan she'd be willing to come back.


The fact that you're honestly enraged by the actions and words of a stick figure creeps me out more than a little bit. Seriously. Go get laid or something.


Although I agree with the points you make in your post, this little bit was uncalled for in my opinion. That someone feels strongly about the characters in the comic is not good reason to insult them, even if you think it's silly.

[Hithros]

Wow....Elan really did have a cool headstone for Therkla.....
I wonder if that was planned out?

[Estovus]

Although I agree with the points you make in your post, this little bit was uncalled for in my opinion. That someone feels strongly about the characters in the comic is not good reason to insult them, even if you think it's silly.

Fair. I've deleted that bit, now.

[B. Dandelion]

As for the reality of it, though, I'm surprised how many people here are forgetting that Therkla was evil; employed by an evil man to kill people.
You're assuming that we are forgetting it and not finding it a sad story in spite of it -- which I would call insulting but am so used to by now that it inspires nothing so much as a weary exasperation.


Not just nameless, faceless redshirts, either, but actual people with personalities. She just happened to get a hormonal trip that made her feel giddy about Elan, that doesn't make her good.
I actually give her a little more credit than that. It was a pretty shallow and blatantly sexual attraction that brought her into Elan's orbit in the first place, but his influence seemed to have a positive effect on her. He shot down her advances but she still didn't want any harm to come to him. She could have just killed the guards that were restraining her, she chose to knock them out. She could have fled the island and Hinjo's justice, or even fought alongside the devil to bring them down -- and if she'd done the latter and been successful, Kubota's plan would have gone down without a hitch. Instead she rowed back to the ship to stop the Katos from being murdered. She tried to keep her boss from being arrested, as well, which was her undoing, and she apologizes to Elan for it before she dies.


She got everything she deserved, and not a moment too soon.
If the story's more satisfying when you read it to yourself that way, more power to you. To me it wasn't so much about good and evil and being punished or rewarded for it, it was about love and loyalty and a person absolutely brimming with both who was torn apart by it.

[Estovus]

You're assuming that we are forgetting it and not finding it a sad story in spite of it -- which I would call insulting but am so used to by now that it inspires nothing so much as a weary exasperation.
I'm sorry I insulted your superiority. You are clearly a better person than me.

[B. Dandelion]

I'm sorry I insulted your superiority. You are clearly a better person than me.

I daresay my manners and basic reading comprehension might be a few levels above yours.

[Lamech]

Except that a paladin cannot let sombody get away with telling somthing they know is a lie.
It appears you miss understood my intended meaning, probably because I mis-typed a word. In fact mis-typed quite a bit. V will be fine if Elan tells a lie to protect her, Hinjo too as he won't see the truth. Of course, Elan may screw it up, or he may get detect lies and get caught anyway. So it is kind of up to Elan, but if he decides to tell Hinjo, V is getting kicked out at least.


Secondly V can break the fleet, he can fly out of weapon's range, long-range spell bomb, retreat, and repeat. Fleet sinks to the bottom of the ocean It would be extremely evil, but he can do it. Regardless, it would waste time and serve no purpose, so V will simply leave if attacked.

[Estovus]

I daresay my manners and basic reading comprehension might be a few levels above yours.

I respectfully suggest that you may be coming forth as somewhat arrogant, and though I am very sure you are an absolutely wonderful person, I would prefer not to continue conversing, discussing, or in any other way, shape, or form communicating with you. Furthermore, I find it most noticeable (though absolutely fine and downright dandy) that you took the time to write such a lengthy reply to a post that was clearly directed at someone other than yourself. Respond to this if you will, but I will (again, respectfully) withdraw from this little exchange.

[Warren Dew]

If that's the way the Giant goes with this, I will consider it very poor writing indeed. A major reason (from a storytelling perspective) for the Order to be separated is to allow each of them to have significant character development as they reconsider why they're in this and what it is going to require of them.

The characters can develop and grow without all becoming clones of Roy. Reconsidering why he's there might cause Elan to decide to find Haley, for example, and helping Vaarsuvius do it, as I suggested as a possibility, would in my opinion be just as much character growth - maybe more - than trying to do it on his own.


I think you're missing the point a little. We, as the readers, of course know that many of V's victories wouldn't have been possible without the rest of the team. V him/herself is sometimes laughably arrogant, and constantly reminding the others of his/her arcane might.

I think you're misunderstanding Vaarsuvius' personality. When Vaarsuvius is arrogant, it's largely or completely justifiable, as recently illustrated with the demon. Vaarsuvius would be more than happy to have help looking for Haley, and as much as asks Elan for it in the last strip. It's the rest of the "team" that is failing here, not Vaarsuvius.


Eugene used an illusion to appear as a being of law and good in the trial, something the actual being of law and good was highly annoyed at. See #487.

You seem to have gotten the wrong comic. We don't actually know what alignment the Deva in 487 is; after all, she assigns people to other afterlives besides lawful good. The one who was originally scheduled to answer the call was Tony (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html) in 292; while he's certainly disconcerted at the substitution, he isn't visibly annoyed. Given he's on a first name basis with Eugene, I'm sure he agreed the substitution was perfectly fine when Eugene explained at their next D&D session or whatever.

[B. Dandelion]

I respectfully suggest that you may be coming forth as somewhat arrogant,
I am arrogant, but my posts are not supposed to be read with the assumption that it means I'm insulting you. Try to not be so automatically defensive.


and though I am very sure you are an absolutely wonderful person, I would prefer not to continue conversing, discussing, or in any other way, shape, or form communicating with you.
I've never found the ignore function of any use myself, since the mods are quite vigilant, but if I threaten you that much perhaps you'll want to use it. I post frequently and I don't tend to remember petty hostilities from one thread to the next, so I might accidentally respond to you again.


Furthermore, I find it most noticeable (though absolutely fine and downright dandy) that you took the time to write such a lengthy reply to a post that was clearly directed at someone other than yourself.
Yeah, on a public message board. Also most of your missive wasn't directed at anything Laurentio said, but people in general who seemed to have "forgotten" that Therkla was evil.

Respond to this if you will, but I will (again, respectfully) withdraw from this little exchange.
I find it rather sad that you can't even bring yourself to honestly insult me when you bow out of this. I named myself after a weed on purpose, you know. I can take a little abuse.

[SometimesKate]

At the risk of throwing a few logs on the flamewar, dandelions are actually incredibly useful plants with exceptional medicinal and nutritional value. And if you prepare them right, they are quite tasty.

Yes, Therkla killed people. But I think that Kubota gave her, based on her reactions to him, and honestly, his reactions to her up till the end, the respect for her abilities and talents that she needed. Kubota was thoroughly evil. Therkla wasn't, in my opinion. And I feel her love for Elan, and her willingness to put herself at risk for him, despite him not feeling the same way about her, meant she was a changed person. Nothing suited her life so much as the leaving of it, to be perfectly maudlin. She didn't just risk herself for Elan, or even to impress Elan. He knew -nothing- about the Katos, she did, and she went to save them because it was the right thing to do. I admire her, and will do so no matter what.

[Arcadius798]

this proves that Rich Burlew is the final boss of the internet

well played sir, well played

[MyrddinDerwydd]

Even if it's already 8 pages into the discussion, I have to say it--

Awwwww.....That was so sweet.

Anyway, I think we might see a serious turn around for Elan here. A lot of growing up has gone on since he hooked up with Haley.




Respond to this if you will, but I will (again, respectfully) withdraw from this little exchange.
I find it rather sad that you can't even bring yourself to honestly insult me when you bow out of this. I named myself after a weed on purpose, you know. I can take a little abuse.
Congratulations, you just proved his point. :smallcool:

[B. Dandelion]

At the risk of throwing a few logs on the flamewar, dandelions are actually incredibly useful plants with exceptional medicinal and nutritional value. And if the prepare them right, they are quite tasty.
I did not know that. I remember I used to pick them when I was... eh, 3 or 4 and being heartbroken when my older sister said they were just weeds. My mom would shoot her a look, say they're still flowers and put them in a vase anyway. I kind of think of them as one or the other, or sometimes both at the same time, which seemed kind of appropriate to my personality. I know I'm abrasive at times but I don't honestly mean to be unkind.


Yes, Therkla killed people. But I think that Kubota gave her, based on her reactions to him, and honestly, his reactions to her up till the end, the respect for her abilities and talents that she needed.
I got that impression too. He treated her almost like a daughter until she betrayed him. Then he severed ties without remorse. It was a peculiar sort of relationship.


Kubota was thoroughly evil. Therkla wasn't, in my opinion. And I feel her love for Elan, and her willingness to put herself at risk for him, despite him not feeling the same way about her, meant she was a changed person.
Her quote about being sick of good guys and bad guys equally, and only wanting the people she loved to be safe, sounded thoroughly neutral. Also we never did get actual confirmation that she had an evil alignment, although she must have thought she did. I like to hope she was LN at least at the end there.

Nothing suited her life so much as the leaving of it, to be perfectly maudlin.
Sadly yes, although I still get a kick out of her earlier strips "...which is why pants should be forsaken whenever possible." "I've always felt the same way! Wow!"


She didn't just risk herself for Elan, or even to impress Elan. He knew -nothing- about the Katos, she did, and she went to save them because it was the right thing to do.
To be fair, she said she didn't want the Katos hurt but also specifically said she wanted to stop Kubota from making a mistake that would ruin his career.

I admire her, and will do so no matter what.Personally I'd have to vote it as one of the Giant's best arcs. It's lovely (although incredibly sad) just by itself, but also as I've said elsewhere, it really makes Elan's character shine. I've never liked him so much as I do now.


Congratulations, you just proved his point. :smallcool:
That point being that displaying a patently insincere personality when you obviously just want to tell someone to shove off (to put it mildly) is the way to win points in an internet debate? Look it's all well and good and rule-abiding to be polite, but if you can't say something nice without your teeth clenched tight enough to crack a walnut shell in between your jaws, maybe you'd be better off not replying to someone instead of "respectfully" saying that this will be your last post.

And that's the last I have to say on the matter. I sincerely hope I wasn't out of line because I don't mean to cause trouble. I'll be elsewhere.

[dps]

As far as Elan and Therkla... really tragic. Unrequited love is the worst love of all and it was lose lose all ways. I have to wonder if Haley, given some one loving her so completely as to betray their master, would be so noble. At least Elan is honoring her as best he can. Oddly too, Elan is growing up. He's understanding consequences and feeling regret. I have to wonder if Roy is hanging around to see this. I think he'd find it really touching.

As far as V is concerned, if Elan testifies against him then it's pretty open and shut. The question is how can Hinjo respond. He could say 'V helped us in Azure City, killed a noble, so we'll call it even and banish him from the fleet.' Hopefully they don't maroon him. If Hinjo goes for the Good, then he might pardon him (which could be read as forgiving or permissive or self-serving depending on your point of view) or he can call for V's execution. Murder, particularly of a helpless captive, is pretty standardly punished in lawful societies.



I think that you are assuming a lot about Azure City laws that we don't actually know. You (and I mean "you" in the plural sense, becasue other posters seem to do the same) seem to think that Hinjo has to either ignore what V did or try V for murder. But there may be other possibilities. For example, it's possible that V might be convicted of manslaughter instead of murder, and given a sentence of six months, said sentence suspended until the threat to the gates is ended.

[darkriku2000]

Elan can tell everybody what happened and still pull a loop hole to get them out of it, simply put, they're not in Azure City anymore, they're in the middle of the ocean where their are no laws on a run away boat, so Hinjo is free to do with the laws as he pleases, plus, let's face it, V is SCARY!

[Kaihaku]

So, question...

In #598, Durkon is rubbing momma on the belly in panel one and she looks unhappy. In panel three, Durkon is off camera and momma looks really happy. What's going on?

[FujinAkari]

So, question...

In #598, Durkon is rubbing momma on the belly in panel one and she looks unhappy. In panel three, Durkon is off camera and momma looks really happy. What's going on?

Durkon was checking to ensure the baby survived, which (s)he did.


Elan can tell everybody what happened and still pull a loop hole to get them out of it, simply put, they're not in Azure City anymore, they're in the middle of the ocean where their are no laws on a run away boat, so Hinjo is free to do with the laws as he pleases, plus, let's face it, V is SCARY!

Lawful Good doesn't mean "follow the law" it means following an established series of protocol, which V very clearly broke. The claim of open ocean has no basis.

Remember, Miko apparently routinely enforced her code of morals on others, regardless of how geographically remote she was from Azure City.

[Warren Dew]

So, question...

In #598, Durkon is rubbing momma on the belly in panel one and she looks unhappy. In panel three, Durkon is off camera and momma looks really happy. What's going on?

The theory people have offered is that Durkon is figuring out whether the baby is okay in the first panel, and the third panel reflects her reaction to his informing her that baby is fine.

[David Argall]

A military vessel, subject to military law, yes. Civilian ships, ships, no I don't think so. The captain of a merchant ship couldn't hang his crew for mutiny, I don't think.
Merchant ships have historically suffered less mutinies, and were generally able to push them off on civil courts since the crew was in general better paid and in more regulated waters, but that is merely relatively. Merchant captains sometimes did suffer serious mutinies, and punished them.

http://www.mojolaw.com/defs/ca041

On board, the captain is invested with almost arbitrary power overthe crew

http://www.literarytraveler.com/authors/robinson_crusoe.aspx

The senior merchant had the mutineers arrested and immediately tried for their acts of piracy.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O225-mutiny.html

Those who mutinied and escaped often resorted to piracy and any that were caught were hanged from the yardarm without further ado



No, it's just that outside of any kingdom the bandits too are not protectted by laws, and have no right to due process. Anyone, including bandits, can be killed without legal reprisal. But Hinjo, as a paladin, is bound by Law, and can't take extra-judicial action. Another ruler might deal with the problem.
It should be obvious that the very lawful leader is not going to tolerate unlawful behavior like this. They impose the law where they can, not just in some limited area.
The limits on a judicial code are practical. There is no Lawful area where the law applies, and an unlawful area where the law is void according to the lawful view. There are merely areas where law should be enforced, but is not being enforced. In the comic, we see Roy trying to argue a lack of jurisdiction, and getting shot down. Such is the normal attitude of the law. If the government has the most guns in an area, it's laws are valid. And if it gets more guns in the future its laws were valid in the past too.

Imagine that Hinjo recaptures Azure City and a number of the slave drivers that had fun under Redcloak. Hinjo will reject any plea that these were not criminal due to his having been forced out of the city. Instead, he will want to punish them as if he had been in charge of the city the entire time.

[Somber Requiem]

Manslaughter would be murder III, accidental death. So unless V happens to accidentally cast disintigration spells and accidentally hits a bound captive and accidentally confessess to doing it intentionally murder III is probably not an option. And I think that Shojo probably would have found a loophole or held another farce trial or covered it up; after all he was chaotic. But Hinjo isn't like his father. He's lawful. And there isn't a law on Earth that allows premeditated, intentional murder of a citizen with status to go around unpunished. It's just not how any lawful civilization functions, period. Murder is one of the oldest laws in the books and it's a pretty universal thread in every society that uses laws. I don't see it as a big assumption that the laws of AC would equally reflect such laws.

Now, if this were a chaotic good society then I suspect they'd by V a pint and force him to drink it while slapping him on the back and thanking him for getting rid of such a pain in the ass like Kubota. But they're not.

So again I predict the following. Elan tells Hinjo what happened to Kubota and V. Hinjo speaks with Durkon, the Matos, Lien, and Elan about V. There's a confrontation where Hinjo exiles V, they are left on a shore and there's a confrontation between V and the others. And then either V cracks, goes his own way, or goes scatterbug crazy. Then back to Roy or Haley! Or Zulkon!

[Kaihaku]

The theory people have offered is that Durkon is figuring out whether the baby is okay in the first panel, and the third panel reflects her reaction to his informing her that baby is fine.

That makes a lot of sense but why is Durkon grinning in the first panel then?

[Prowl]

That makes a lot of sense but why is Durkon grinning in the first panel then?

Doctor's bedside manner. Not so much grinning, just smiling comfortingly.

[Ravens_cry]

Poor Elan. He is trying so hard, attempting to fill shoes he was never meant to fill.

[Albion]

Aww.
I'm a tad hungover and emotional and touchy so... well damn (wipes away an invisible particle of dirt from the corner of his eye) Yeah, pretty good alright. :smallredface:

[Eric]

Therkla -- whether or not she achieved neutral alignment in life certainly did or better in death. I could see her in the lawful neutral tending towards good afterlife along with Miko.

I suppose it depends on whether there is absolution in D&D. There's less need because there are several heavens and some of them are the ones evil people go to. Whereas here christianity assumes hell is for punishment and you only have the one heaven, so forgivness is more necessary because an eternity of punishment needs to be REALLY deserved.

I think if this was a story set in this world, Therkla would be going to heaven. Unlike Miko, at the end, when she's dying she realises and regrets the mistakes made.

Isn't that what forgiveness for?

[Eric]

Manslaughter would be murder III, accidental death.

Justifiable homicide?

[Eric]

ISTM you both missed the point. The epitaph doesn't read "she would have made a pretty good girlfriend to me." It says she would have been a pretty good girlfriend. In other words, she was a person deserving of love.

Just hope laurentio ii read that one.

Yes, you nailed it (and, no "nailed in this context doesn't mean anything sexual: if there are two ways to read something and one is offensive, the other one was probably what was meant).

(sorry, just had to nail home the point. you spotted the good meaning off the bat, BD).

[Jan Mattys]

I think the most important thing that can be assumed in this last strip is that Elan was definitely "pretending" to be stupid in the 597 one.

Which is both a big leap towards becoming a better leader and a sign INT isn't his dump stat any more...

[Eric]

I think the most important thing that can be assumed in this last strip is that Elan was definitely "pretending" to be stupid in the 597 one.

Which is both a big leap towards becoming a better leader and a sign INT isn't his dump stat any more...

Two things:

a) "assume" and "definitely" don't go together in the same sentence. Assumption isn't always correct, a definitely true statement is.

b) I don't see how this can be assumed from this strip anyway. In this one Elan even SAYS he's too dumb to understand or think of other ways to solve issues. And his problem with V is amply covered with "he killed Kabuto and now I may have to tell Hinjo".

[Jan Mattys]

Two things:

a) "assume" and "definitely" don't go together in the same sentence. Assumption isn't always correct, a definitely true statement is.

Uselessly pedantic. Especially considering I'm pretty sure you got what I meant :smalltongue:


b) I don't see how this can be assumed from this strip anyway. In this one Elan even SAYS he's too dumb to understand or think of other ways to solve issues. And his problem with V is amply covered with "he killed Kabuto and now I may have to tell Hinjo".

Uhm, that makes sense. Still, Elans clearly stated "I am not going to lie for you, I'm gonna tell Hinjo", so it seems that he already decided what he's gonna do. The problem with V he's talking about now seems to me as something a bit deeper than just "having to do something that is likely to make a friend of mine angry with another friend of mine". "What would Roy do about Varsaavius" seems to refer to the whole "how to deal with V, whose fingers are fizzling with power and whose eyes glow red, now" thing, and not specifically to the "I'll have to tell the paladin about Kubata".

But again, that was my perception of it. Of course, being Elan... well, Elan, you can never tell. But the speech he had in this last strip seems to imply he's trying hard to get the best out of his Wis and Int values...

[BloodOnlySpills]

Very well done. Once again, Elan shows he's one of the more heartfelt characters, if not the most.

Perhaps Roy was watching, and will find Therkla and see what she knows?

[SometimesKate]

"What would Roy do about Varsaavius" seems to refer to the whole "how to deal with V, whose fingers are fizzling with power and whose eyes glow red, now" thing, and not specifically to the "I'll have to tell the paladin about Kubata".

I have to disagree with this. It seemed to me that Elan was oblivious to the glowing red eyes and fizzling fingers. (Fizzling Fingers would be a nifty name for a band, by the way) Hence V's giving up trying to threaten and, what to me was a hilarious line, "...Well done. Have a cookie." I can just hear that in my head, dripping with sarcasm, mixed with anger, and honestly, a flicker of amusement, because V -knows- Elan doesn't get it, and wouldn't believe that V would harm him. He really wouldn't, and even if he had a lightning bolt in his chest, he'd assume there'd been some sort of mistake. V's world is currently revolving around two points, I think; a) Finding Haley, Roy, and yes, even Belkar, so they can be reunited and, in the case of Roy, restored, and b) saving the world. Everything else is just chaff.

[Dalek Kommander]

I have to disagree with this. It seemed to me that Elan was oblivious to the glowing red eyes and fizzling fingers. (Fizzling Fingers would be a nifty name for a band, by the way) Hence V's giving up trying to threaten and, what to me was a hilarious line, "...Well done. Have a cookie."

But the fact that acting stupid defused a very dangerous confrontation is precisely the reason that it was the smartest thing for Elan to do at the time. Mind you, I don't deny it was also the stupidest thing he could have done at the time, so it just doesn't prove anything at all.

Now that Elan is alone, and not potentially bluffing the trigger-happy mage, he obviously does realize that this is going beyond the usual level of happy-go-lucky mayem, like the good old days when Varsuuvius was harassing Belkar with explosive runes. Elan might not be a rocket scientist, but he does seem to grasp the important point that tattling to the paladin might not be enough to solve this problem off-panel in time for next week's strip.

[Gitman00]

The characters can develop and grow without all becoming clones of Roy. Reconsidering why he's there might cause Elan to decide to find Haley, for example, and helping Vaarsuvius do it, as I suggested as a possibility, would in my opinion be just as much character growth - maybe more - than trying to do it on his own.

Fair enough; we may just be arguing semantics here.


I think you're misunderstanding Vaarsuvius' personality. When Vaarsuvius is arrogant, it's largely or completely justifiable, as recently illustrated with the demon. Vaarsuvius would be more than happy to have help looking for Haley, and as much as asks Elan for it in the last strip. It's the rest of the "team" that is failing here, not Vaarsuvius.

You're still missing the point. I'm looking at this subjectively from Vaarsuvius' point of view. He/she is so caught up in his/her own refusal to admit weakness, that he/she is having a mental breakdown due to the circumstances forcing him/her to face failure. He/she just murdered, yes, murdered a helpless prisoner, then threatened to do the same to a friend and teammate with whom he/she had been travelling for the better part of a year! What Vaarsuvius is exhibiting is not "justifiable arrogance," it is hubris, plain and simple. There's a reason vanity is considered one of the seven deadly sins.


You seem to have gotten the wrong comic. We don't actually know what alignment the Deva in 487 is; after all, she assigns people to other afterlives besides lawful good. The one who was originally scheduled to answer the call was Tony (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html) in 292; while he's certainly disconcerted at the substitution, he isn't visibly annoyed. Given he's on a first name basis with Eugene, I'm sure he agreed the substitution was perfectly fine when Eugene explained at their next D&D session or whatever.

No, I'm pretty sure I got the right comic. The OOTS afterlife, from what we've seen, works on an application system. Roy wasn't at a neutral place deciding where to go, he was right at the door to the Lawful Good afterlife, and that's what he was applying to enter. The Deva said she's judging Roy on whether he's lawful, and whether he's good. Seems pretty clear she's Lawful Good.

At any rate, this is beside the original point, which was that Eugene hijacking Tony's summoning is hardly indicative of him being lawful good.

[DomaDoma]

I have to disagree with this. It seemed to me that Elan was oblivious to the glowing red eyes and fizzling fingers. (Fizzling Fingers would be a nifty name for a band, by the way) Hence V's giving up trying to threaten and, what to me was a hilarious line, "...Well done. Have a cookie." I can just hear that in my head, dripping with sarcasm, mixed with anger, and honestly, a flicker of amusement, because V -knows- Elan doesn't get it, and wouldn't believe that V would harm him.

He was really quite sure what to do about Vaarsuvius before the threat. And he's given Hinjo a message in advance that they need to talk. No, I think he gets it.

[RMS Oceanic]

This comic was really sweet and sad, showing Elan at his best. It's sad that he feels like the only one trying to live up to Roy's standards, yet knowing he really can't.

I get a feeling, although it's not iron-clad, that this is a bookmark on the time we spend with the azurites, and 599 may flick somewhere else. Having a big headstone like that makes me think so.

[Eric]

Uselessly pedantic. Especially considering I'm pretty sure you got what I meant :smalltongue:

No. I don't. Is your supposition DEFINTELY right or not.

Edit: it looks like you admitted to the "not".

Fair enough. It *did* need clearing up.
You may be right, but Rich is the only one who knows. And maybe not even him.



Uhm, that makes sense. Still, Elans clearly stated "I am not going to lie for you, I'm gonna tell Hinjo", so it seems that he already decided what he's gonna do.

As the oldest son I've been in charge of the rest of the kids.

The number of times I've had "I'm going to tell dad on you!!" later to be put "Look, lets not spoil their time out and forget it." would have had me on easy street if I'd been paid per incident.

[Eric]

FHe/she just murdered, yes, murdered a helpless prisoner

And executions are murder too.

Just state sponsored.

And was V's threat genuine or a get-back at someone who told them "You know that guy you don't like? That's *you*, that is"?

[Ron Miel]

... and 599 may flick somewhere else...

I predict that we'll stay with them for at least another 2 strips, and #600 will feature the birth of baby Hinjo Elan Kato.