Characters changing places in OOTS

[esmerelder]

So much awesome character development in less than 600 strips! The latest comic (#598), in which Elan reflects on his efforts to step into Roy's shoes (which he feels are way too big for him) led me to think about the ways in which the role each character plays in the group/s have altered since Strip #1. In a funny way, it seems like lots of the characters have swapped roles as they've grown and changed (sometimes in a good way, sometimes not!).

* As Elan pointed out in #596, V. is falling into the role that used to played by Belkar. Ze's certainly not up to 'psychopathic halfling' territory yet, but the role of 'dangerous loose cannon who can't be relied upon not to kill randoms and/or hir own party members if ze gets the inclination'? Check.

* Meanwhile, Belkar himself, thanks to his illness, was reminding me quite a lot of early Elan in strips #573-#581 - cheerfully out of touch with reality, willing to put a positive spin on everything ("Goodbye, Happy Fun Sunshine Land! Thanks for everything!" "I'm a unicorn!") and, of course, a total liability to the rest of the team.

* Haley and Elan, obviously, have been taking over Roy's role in both their groups. I think if they're ever reunited with him, they're either going to be doing a lot of apologising for the way they behaved in the early strips now that they know what being the leader is like, or Roy is going to be teasing them a lot for their new 'responsible' attitudes.

* This is weaker, but at times Haley also seems to be getting pushed into V.'s role as the only person in her group who has any idea of the way the mortal world operates - some of her "I'm surrounded by IDIOTS!" expressions when confronted by Celia's ignorance about golems, humans and why it's a bad idea to sneak into Greysky City would have been classic Vaarsuvius moments a few years ago.

* And of course, Roy is now effectively stuck playing the role that his Dad played in the early comics - but don't tell him that!

* Durkon seems to be the only member whose role in the Order has stayed stable throughout the strips - any predictions on where he might go or how he might change, I'd love to hear them!

[Laurentio II]

I wholly agree. Nice post.

[vartan]

Durkon was proven to be stable in OOTS #1 and that way he shall remain :smallsmile:

[Talyn]

Yes, I concur entirely. Well done. I also think that with Elan admitting he's out of his depths in the leadership role, he's taking the first steps into becoming the person who ISN'T out of his depth in a leadership role.

My only hope is that if (when!) Roy comes back, Elan doesn't regress...

[SPoD]

I think Celia has become the Haley. Or at least, the old "Dorukan's Dungeon" era Haley.

She swings wildly between being hyper-effective and insightful to being an overt liability, and she challenges the leader's conclusions regularly. She puts her personal quest ahead of the group's problems, even if that means going behind the leader's back. She's too useful simply discount as a moron, but she's too unreliable to not keep an eye on.

[Desilva]

* Durkon seems to be the only member whose role in the Order has stayed stable throughout the strips - any predictions on where he might go or how he might change, I'd love to hear them!

Durkon is a dwarf, and as far as personality goes, he's also a tank. Like a boulder he weathers the winds of change with resilience and though he may suffer a bit of minor structural damage, he always comes out looking like the same Durkon he will always be. He's reliable and hardy. Like O'Chul, he endures.

If he ever undergoes major changes in character, I'll consider it a massive failure on Rich's part. But part of what makes the comic so great is that Rich understands his characters.

Some characters are meant to undergo awesome character development, and others are meant to remain stable, sometimes to emphasize the development of those around them.

[Roderick_BR]

Durkon was proven to be stable in OOTS #1 and that way he shall remain :smallsmile:
True. Ironically, being the stable guy means you'll be stable in your role as well :smalltongue:
Really, Durkon always acted as the better man (or dwarf), and the voice of reason (if not a father figure at times), so I think he doesn't really need character development, he's mostly an alerady finished character, even if we do see him act more "human", like when V has been pissing him off lately.

And there's no doubt on how Elan has developed lately, like the younger brother just realizing how the world out there is not so easy. I really can't wait to see what'll happen when(if?) Roy returns.

[Zordrath]

A very true OP. I'm not entirely happy with some of these changes, but they are clearly visible.

However, Belkar hasn't really changed all that much himself, he's more or less been forced into uselessness by Roy and Shojo (as opposed to V, who's descending more and more into madness despite Durkon and Elan trying to stop him). The total stupidity for a few strips was, hopefully, only temporal, as well.

[Linkavitch]

Nice. Could be, I suppose. Kudos for thinking it out, though.

[Staven]

* Durkon seems to be the only member whose role in the Order has stayed stable throughout the strips - any predictions on where he might go or how he might change, I'd love to hear them!

Durkon is the static character. It takes a little while to notice it, but he's always been a generally gruff but good natured LG dwarf, and probably always will be.

[Nightgaunt]

Durkon is a dwarf, and as far as personality goes, he's also a tank. Like a boulder he weathers the winds of change with resilience and though he may suffer a bit of minor structural damage, he always comes out looking like the same Durkon he will always be. He's reliable and hardy. Like O'Chul, he endures.

If he ever undergoes major changes in character, I'll consider it a massive failure on Rich's part. But part of what makes the comic so great is that Rich understands his characters.

Some characters are meant to undergo awesome character development, and others are meant to remain stable, sometimes to emphasize the development of those around them.

Disagreement, based on Origins... (Spoiler, is thusly based)

I disagree only in that if D if ever find out WHY he was tossed from his ancestral lands it may shake the very foundations of his belief structure. He was, essentially, exiled and lied to about it. As a Lawful Good dwarf being betrayed by your own system would likely tweek him a bit. That'd be a tough blow. I'm not sure what exactly the development would be, but that could cause some alteration.

[Mercenary Pen]

Maybe the whole change in character roles is based upon the way that class roles took formalised form with the shift to fourth edition rules? I know Rich stated he wasn't converting wholesale, but he also stated he wouldn't rule out taking inspiration from fourth edition either...

Warning: contains 4e-based musings in great detail... you have been warned!
I mean, Roy's always fitted more as a Warlord than a straight Fighter (considering his ability scores and general skill in commanding people), Durkon's always been the other style of play for the Leader archetype, the solid platform everyone else uses to shore themselves up. Bards have, in the new edition, been tentatively identified as a Leader class, and with Roy out of the picture, and at least one level in Dashing Swordsman, Elan's stepped up to the plate on that count. I'm not exactly certain how this fits for Haley and Belkar as Strikers, nor whether Vaarsuvius in his/her quest to scry for Haley, etc. hasn't given up all real control through sheer control-freakery- although I suppose control-freakery is one way of portraying the controller role...

[Izad]

* Durkon seems to be the only member whose role in the Order has stayed stable throughout the strips - any predictions on where he might go or how he might change, I'd love to hear them!

Consider the implications of:

1) The oracle said he would return home posthumously
2) The prophecy from the priest of thor was that when he did return, he would "bring death and destruction for us all."

Which means he returns, as a problem, *after* his death. I can think of a couple of mechanics for that, and none of them are pleasant.

[gamerboy6000]

I agree, nice job!

[Staven]

Just a theory on the whole "Death and Destruction" thing: what if he comes back, after being rezzed after dying, with Redcloak in chains, a cleric of the death and destruction domains?

[Terrace]

That would be a great theory, and I will cackle happily if that happens.

[David Argall]

In a funny way, it seems like lots of the characters have swapped roles as they've grown and changed (sometimes in a good way, sometimes not!).
Well, if you mean by "funny" extremely stretched and reaching, you may have a point.


* As Elan pointed out in #596, V. is falling into the role that used to played by Belkar. Ze's certainly not up to 'psychopathic halfling' territory yet, but the role of 'dangerous loose cannon who can't be relied upon not to kill randoms and/or hir own party members if ze gets the inclination'?
V kills one !@#$, who needs killing, and you are talking of him becoming Belkar? And V is a slippery slope, not a loose cannon. [You have no idea where a loose cannon is going, except that you are pretty sure you don't want it going there. V is obsessed with the idea of contacting Haley, and we can see the path she is on and can reasonably predict the consequences.]


* Meanwhile, Belkar himself, thanks to his illness, was reminding me quite a lot of early Elan in strips #573-#581 - cheerfully out of touch with reality, willing to put a positive spin on everything ("Goodbye, Happy Fun Sunshine Land! Thanks for everything!" "I'm a unicorn!") and, of course, a total liability to the rest of the team.
We get a half dozen strips, with hints they are a temporary condition, and we are supposed to assume the vaguely similar is the identical? Belkar is merely a burden. Elan at times was an outright danger to himself and others.


* Haley and Elan, obviously, have been taking over Roy's role in both their groups. I think if they're ever reunited with him, they're either going to be doing a lot of apologising for the way they behaved in the early strips now that they know what being the leader is like, or Roy is going to be teasing them a lot for their new 'responsible' attitudes.
Again we have as many differences as simularities. Haley may be said to have become a leader, but Elan? What leadership has he displayed? He acted as Hinjo's guard and has been sent on some missions, in a non-command position. Our party on the ship is leaderless and is going in random directions.


* This is weaker, but at times Haley also seems to be getting pushed into V.'s role as the only person in her group who has any idea of the way the mortal world operates - some of her "I'm surrounded by IDIOTS!" expressions when confronted by Celia's ignorance about golems, humans and why it's a bad idea to sneak into Greysky City would have been classic Vaarsuvius moments a few years ago.
Would these be V moments? Or Roy moments?


* And of course, Roy is now effectively stuck playing the role that his Dad played in the early comics - but don't tell him that!
But his dad was able to communicate, which is Roy's big problem. He can't play his dad's roll until he can be heard by someone.

[AceOfFools]

I think Celia has become the Haley. Or at least, the old "Dorukan's Dungeon" era Haley.

She swings wildly between being hyper-effective and insightful to being an overt liability, and she challenges the leader's conclusions regularly. She puts her personal quest ahead of the group's problems, even if that means going behind the leader's back. She's too useful simply discount as a moron, but she's too unreliable to not keep an eye on.

Haley as an overt liability?

I wouldn't count her kidnap because the OotS weren't put in danger of losing due to her absence. Further, she got herself out of it, learned Xykon's nefarious plot as a result, AND was able to reunite with the order in time to prevent said plot from working. I'd love liabilities like that.

She may have skimmed substantial amounts of cash off the top, but not in such a way that it overtly damaged the groups survival chances.

I fully concede that she was a covert liability, but what rouge isn't?
Cookies to those who caught the OoPCs reference without the secret text.

[Theodoriph]

Maybe the whole change in character roles is based upon the way that class roles took formalised form with the shift to fourth edition rules? I know Rich stated he wasn't converting wholesale, but he also stated he wouldn't rule out taking inspiration from fourth edition either...

I mean, Roy's always fitted more as a Warlord than a straight Fighter (considering his ability scores and general skill in commanding people), Durkon's always been the other style of play for the Leader archetype, the solid platform everyone else uses to shore themselves up. Bards have, in the new edition, been tentatively identified as a Leader class, and with Roy out of the picture, and at least one level in Dashing Swordsman, Elan's stepped up to the plate on that count. I'm not exactly certain how this fits for Haley and Belkar as Strikers, nor whether Vaarsuvius in his/her quest to scry for Haley, etc. hasn't given up all real control through sheer control-freakery- although I suppose control-freakery is one way of portraying the controller role...

Except the character in question were that way before 4th ed (e.g. Roy, Durkon), or began undergoing the change long before 4th ed. came out (eg. Elan). The others don't quite fit 4th ed. descriptions.

[eyeofsaulot]

I fully concede that she was a covert liability, but what rouge isn't?

Rouge is anything but covert!

[AceOfFools]

Rouge is anything but covert!

Depends on the amount applied. I've long held the opinion that if its obvious your wearing make up you've got too much on.
Deleting the hidden text? No cookies for you!
:smallamused:

[eyeofsaulot]

Depends on the amount applied. I've long held the opinion that if its obvious your wearing make up you've got too much on.

Too many simply don't understand this concept.
And I deleted it again! Had I not, it would have defeated the purpose of it being hidden... what with the tan background and the white text and the conspicuousness!

And in attempts to not stray too far off topic:
In response to the OP, *if* V were to turn evil, I sincerely doubt she would ever venture into loose canon territory. V is much too methodical for that. Despite being evil, she would still only kill with purpose...selfish and evil purpose, but purpose nevertheless.

[Chazzie]

Someone mentioned Durkon staying stable ever since comic #1.

I have to respectfully disagree.

Trees.

[House_of_Dexter]

Too many simply don't understand this concept.

Heh...think you didn't catch the hint of sarcasm...:smallbiggrin: Rouge...is makeup that you wear...A Rogue is character that might stick a dagger in your backside...:smallredface:

[House_of_Dexter]

And in attempts to not stray too far off topic:
In response to the OP, *if* V were to turn evil, I sincerely doubt she would ever venture into loose canon territory. V is much too methodical for that. Despite being evil, she would still only kill with purpose...selfish and evil purpose, but purpose nevertheless.Ummm...I think V is sliding quickly down the path to kill anyone who gets in his way or do anything to reach their ultimate goal...and will use logic to justify the means...The worst type of crusader...

[eyeofsaulot]

Heh...think you didn't catch the hint of sarcasm...:smallbiggrin: Rouge...is makeup that you wear...A Rogue is character that might stick a dagger in your backside...:smallredface:

Well yes...we were actually talking about rouge, not rogues. The initial joke made my AceOfFools was a reference to OtOoPCs where Haley claimed she was a "rouge" on her OOTS application.


Ummm...I think V is sliding quickly down the path to kill anyone who gets in his way or do anything to reach their ultimate goal...and will use logic to justify the means...The worst type of crusader...

To me, this argument doesn't work, because V was able to assess the situation with Kubota correctly and her threat toward Elan afterward was a total bluff. But I can certainly see why someone would interpret these things differently.

[Starbuck_II]

Someone mentioned Durkon staying stable ever since comic #1.

I have to respectfully disagree.

Trees.

Ahck, you are right. He became a tree. Betraying his dwarven heritage.