[3.5] Playing a Demon/Devil

[Irreverent Fool]

I've been invited to a monstrous campaign with no alignment restrictions. I am aware of all the potential problems but we're all excited.

Anyhoo, I have a character concept I've gone over with my DM. Basically, my desire is to play a demon. I'm looking for something of Large size, natural attacks (preferably two claw attacks), strength bonus, and wings. The trouble is, all the things I've found that grant these qualities have LAs a little too high to play within the DM's guidelines. I'm looking for 2-3 LA if at all possible. Outsider type would be nice, but most of what I want for the character can be refluffed. I'd like DR (any kind, even /magic) but it's mostly to explain why he was able to devastate armies in ages past before his power was diminished by imprisonment, so it isn't required.

I thought I might take a likely candidate and add the 'winged' template, but the +2LA is a bit harsh considering my other criteria. I can always fluff ruined wings or simply not use them. It's more of an aesthetic requirement than a mechanical one.

Large size, Strength bonus, natural attacks, low LA is what I need. Ideas?

[Tsotha-lanti]

LA +2 or +3 for wings and Large size? No way. Both are pretty much LA +2 by themselves.

[Irreverent Fool]

LA +2 or +3 for wings and Large size? No way. Both are pretty much LA +2 by themselves.

I'm aware of the "winged" problem. What I've encountered so far with large creatures isn't so much the LA as the fact that they tend to have some amount of racial HD to overcome.

The most likely candidate right now seems to be the Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny.

[Kaihaku]

Well...

It's not quite what you asked for but there are the Incubus/Succubus from Savage Species. It's a 13 level racial progression but if you're going to hit level 14 then you can go for Warshaper. You'll have wings, natural attack, good to great bonus to most stats but especially CHA (+16 IIRC), and I think you might be able to shapeshift into large size...not positive though.

[Moonshadow]

Well...

It's not quite what you asked for but there are the Incubus/Succubus from Savage Species. It's a 13 level racial progression but if you're going to hit level 14 then you can go for Warshaper. You'll have wings, natural attack, good to great bonus to most stats but especially CHA (+16 IIRC), and I think you might be able to shapeshift into large size...not positive though.


Don't forget the mind-blowing sex either :smallbiggrin:

[jcsw]

Fey'ri from page 119 of Races of Faerun are the result of elves breeding with demons. The picture there, however, makes them look extremely demonic.

1. They can fly, 40ft with a maneuverability of poor.
2. They have alter self at will to any outsider form which looks vaguely demonic, which should solve the "I want to be large" thingy.
3. They have relatively low LA, of +2, or +3 if you pick one of the more powerful spell likes.

[Starbuck_II]

I've been invited to a monstrous campaign with no alignment restrictions. I am aware of all the potential problems but we're all excited.

Anyhoo, I have a character concept I've gone over with my DM. Basically, my desire is to play a demon. I'm looking for something of Large size, natural attacks (preferably two claw attacks), strength bonus, and wings. The trouble is, all the things I've found that grant these qualities have LAs a little too high to play within the DM's guidelines. I'm looking for 2-3 LA if at all possible. Outsider type would be nice, but most of what I want for the character can be refluffed. I'd like DR (any kind, even /magic) but it's mostly to explain why he was able to devastate armies in ages past before his power was diminished by imprisonment, so it isn't required.

I thought I might take a likely candidate and add the 'winged' template, but the +2LA is a bit harsh considering my other criteria. I can always fluff ruined wings or simply not use them. It's more of an aesthetic requirement than a mechanical one.

Large size, Strength bonus, natural attacks, low LA is what I need. Ideas?

1/2 Fiend + 1/2 Ogre race work.
Bearded Devil fits if ECL 12 game (6 LA, 6 HD).

Most monsters do not have LA because they considered not usable material.

[Irreverent Fool]

Well...

It's not quite what you asked for but there are the Incubus/Succubus from Savage Species. It's a 13 level racial progression but if you're going to hit level 14 then you can go for Warshaper. You'll have wings, natural attack, good to great bonus to most stats but especially CHA (+16 IIRC), and I think you might be able to shapeshift into large size...not positive though.

That's not bad, and mind-blowing sex is always an advantage. The lack of HD in the racial progression is kind of painful, but it's not a deal-breaker. I was going to try to steer clear of Savage Species but this has potential.


1/2 Fiend + 1/2 Ogre race work.
Bearded Devil fits if ECL 12 game (6 LA, 6 HD).

Most monsters do not have LA because they considered not usable material.

Half-Fiend/Half-Ogre actually fits the bill perfectly aside from the +6 LA. :smallfrown:


Fey'ri from page 119 of Races of Faerun are the result of elves breeding with demons. The picture there, however, makes them look extremely demonic.

1. They can fly, 40ft with a maneuverability of poor.
2. They have alter self at will to any outsider form which looks vaguely demonic, which should solve the "I want to be large" thingy.
3. They have relatively low LA, of +2, or +3 if you pick one of the more powerful spell likes.

Wow, I didn't even glance at the campaign-specific material. This may work perfectly. Considering the DM is encouraging warforged, I don't think it would be hard at all to convince him to allow this. I'll check it out.

Thanks guys. I usually restrict my posts to sarcastic comments but when I need help I know I can always count on the Playground. I'll update this when I get my character together.

[Fax Celestis]

Here's an alternative: Fiendish Raptoran. No claws, but you get your flight.

[BardicDuelist]

Here's an alternative: Fiendish Raptoran. No claws, but you get your flight.

And it's not large.

[Irreverent Fool]

I think I'm going to try to go for the Fey'ri from Races of Faerun. (Though the lack of natural attacks is something I just noticed, but I can probabkly trade in one of their spell-likes for a couple claw attacks). This brings up another question that has been puzzling me for some time. When converting 3rd edition material to 3.5, how does one deal with DR? Fey'ri have the option of having DR 10/+1. Would I be right to assume this would translate into a DR/magic?

...not that I feel DR 10/magic is worth a whole additional +1 LA. Well, it could be, but it's largely dependent on the campaign. The last campaign I played in had a significant number of humanoids to fight and therefore a significant number of magical weapons being hurled at us. But I digress.

[fractic]

I think I'm going to try to go for the Fey'ri from Races of Faerun. This brings up another question that has been puzzling me for some time. When converting 3rd edition material to 3.5, how does one deal with DR? Fey'ri have the option of having DR 10/+1. Would I be right to assume this would translate into a DR/magic?

3.0 had a lot larger DR numbers. DR 10/+1 should probably be DR 5/magic in 3.5

[Vortling]

If you're missing natural claw attacks there's always the Feral template from Savage species.

[monty]

Half-fiend half-giant, maybe? You're not actually large, but you get powerful build. +5 LA, though, which is still pretty bad.

[Irreverent Fool]

To address the Fey'ri's lack of natural attacks, I thought I might go through the Willing Deformity feats from Heroes of Horror. Two feats just to gain a bite attack and +4 to intimidate checks isn't too hot though. I'd prefer claws.

Pre-emptive edit: Before posting this I did some more looking and did a forehead-smack when I realized Deformity(Clawed Hands) is in the Book of Vile Darkness. I've got some confusion on the feat, however:



Because of intentional self-mutilation, the character has deformed arms and hands ending in sharp claws...
...Benefit: The character has the ability to deal 1d6 points of damage as an unarmed attack.

Would the character gain two claw attacks or just one?

Edit:

If you're missing natural claw attacks there's always the Feral template from Savage species.
See, this is why I need you guys. I've got all these books in front of me, but only one pair of eyes. I can't believe the feral template is only +1 LA. Unfortunately it is normally limited to humanoids and monstrous humanoids and the Fey'ri are native outsiders. I don't think it's impossible to get it allowed though.


Half-fiend half-giant, maybe? You're not actually large, but you get powerful build. +5 LA, though, which is still pretty bad.
I thought about the powerful-build races, but I mostly want this character large for largeness' sake. Half-ogre accomplishes roughly the same thing as half-giant and actually grants the large size, but the LA when combined with templates that grant the rest of the abilities I want is just a little too much.
Half-fiend half-giant sounds horrifying though.

[Fax Celestis]

One, from a strict reading, but you'd get iteratives.

[Irreverent Fool]

One, from a strict reading, but you'd get iteratives.

Oh I didn't notice that bit. It's listed as an unarmed claw attack and not a natural attack. Interesting. I might just refluff the Deformity(Teeth) bite attack then, though it's a wimpy little d4 damage but has more utility.

A +2 LA Fey'ri combined with the Feral template just might pull it off too. It really depends on what I can talk the DM into. :smallamused:

Just noticed that Fey'ri only turn into humanoids with their alter self ability. So there goes my large size again. Of course, if it was to the outsider type, most of this would be moot anyway. I want to be big!

Edit:
Feral Half-Ogre may do it, but then I'd still be missing the wings. (and be applying a humanoid/monstrous humanoid template to a giant but I think I can get away with that.)

Edit:
I think I've got it! Spoilered below:
Feral Half-Ogre
Large Monstrous Humanoid (or Giant) [Dragonblood]
+10 Strength
-4 Dexterity
+4 Constitution
-6 Intelligence
+2 Wisdom
-2 Cha
• Large Size
• 40’ Movement, Glide 30' (average)
• HD increase to d10s
• Darkvision 60’
• 8 HD - 90'
• 12 HD - 120'
• Fast Healing 2
• 4 HD - 3
• 8 HD - 4
• 12 HD - 5
• +6 Natural Armor
• 2 claw attacks (2d6)
• Improved Grab
• 4 HD - Pounce
• 8 HD - Rake
• 12 HD - Rend
• Level Adjustment +3
• Favored Class: Barbarian

Feats:
Dragontouched (requires 11 cha)
+1 HP
+1 listen, search, spot
+1 to saves vs. paralysis/sleep
Adds the Dragonblood subtype
Dragon Wings
+1 racial bonus to jump, can negate damage from falling and glide forward 20' for every 5' descended. Can glide at a speed of 30' with average maneuverability. Restricted to light load. If unconscious or helpless while falling, wings unfurl automatically and character takes only 1d6 falling famage regardless of distance

Flaw: Undecided, but must be taken to allow a 2nd feat at first level as Dragon Wings must be taken at first level.

Books used:
Races of Destiny (Half-Ogre)
Savage Species (Feral Template)
Dragon Magic (Dragon-Touched)
Races of the Dragon (Dragon Wings)
Unearthed Arcana (Flaws)


He's a little dumber than I'd wanted but not bad for a LA of +3! I'll probably pick up Improved Dragon Wings when I can to allow true flight, but I don't mind being limited to gliding. Flight wasn't really the objective anyway.

I'm still open to suggestions (and grateful for all the help). What do you think?

[Vortling]

What about a Feral Half-Minotaur Raptoran? It gives you your wing, your large size, your strength bonus and your natural claw attacks. Only +2 LA for all of that but arguably uses two of the cheesiest templates available.

There's also a Winged Feral Half-Minotaur (insert 0 LA humanoid race here) which gives better flight and less dex penalties but costs +4 LA.

Mind you, if you combine Feral and Half-Minotaur you're going to be as dumb as toast.

[monty]

Half-minotaur means you're 1/4 bull, right? Since feral is almost like an animal, I'd put that at 3/4 bull. So, when combined, your character is total bull.

[Kaihaku]

Half-minotaur means you're 1/4 bull, right? Since feral is almost like an animal, I'd put that at 3/4 bull. So, when combined, your character is total bull.

That's sig-worthy.

[monty]

Yay, I got sigged again!

[ocato]

Here's an alternative: Fiendish Raptoran. No claws, but you get your flight.

A stormtalon (PrC in Races of the Wild) lets you sharpen your foot talons into claw weapons as a Raptorian. Still not large but not bad either.

Now, a player in one of my PbP games is playing a human (er, humanoid, doesn't really make a different fluff wise) who is possessed by a demon. This manifests as a Totemist (Magic of Incarnum) with a homebrewed version of Vow of Poverty that grants Abyssal Inheritor feats (at a slower rate) instead of Exalted Feats. I think that, overall, it has a lot of options (including growing extra arms, fire resistance, and I think some feat was taken for clawed hands, etc). While not necessarily a monster character, you're looking at 0 LA and the ability to fake being human in towns should that be necessary.

[Irreverent Fool]

What about a Feral Half-Minotaur Raptoran? It gives you your wing, your large size, your strength bonus and your natural claw attacks. Only +2 LA for all of that but arguably uses two of the cheesiest templates available.

There's also a Winged Feral Half-Minotaur (insert 0 LA humanoid race here) which gives better flight and less dex penalties but costs +4 LA.

Mind you, if you combine Feral and Half-Minotaur you're going to be as dumb as toast.

Where is Half-Minotaur from again? I think it's a Dragon Magazine but I don't know which one.

Edit: It's from Dragon 313. Now I just have to find it :smallsmile:

[BossMuro]

Its not actually large size, but the Deformity(Tall) feat (also in HoH) gives you reach and a fluff reason to make your character way bigger then normal, in return for -1 AC. Not too great, but if you're going to take willing deformity anyways, it actually becomes worthwhile.

[Irreverent Fool]

So here's the cheesy templates Vortling suggested combined:

Feral Half-Minotaur Raptoran
Large Monstrous Humanoid (Raptoran)

+16 Str
-4 Dex
+8 Con
-6 Int
+2 Wis

+9 Natural Armor
2 claw attacks (2d6)
1 gore attack (1d8)
Improved Grab (claw)
- 4 HD - Pounce
- 8 HD - Rake
- 12 HD - Rend
Scent
Low-Light Vision
Darkvision 60'
- 8 HD - 90'
- 12 HD - 120'
Fast Healing 2
- 4 HD - 3
- 8 HD - 4
- 12 HD - 5
40' movement, 40' Glide (average)
- 5 HD - Flight 40' (average)
- 10 HD - Flight (no fatigue)
+10 Racial bonus to Jump
+1 Racial bonus to Climb
+2 Racial bonus to Listen, Search, Spot
+4 to escape Maze effects
Always know which way is North
Level Adjustment +2

Books Used:
Races of the Wild (Raptoran)
Savage Species (Feral Template)
Dragon Magazine #313 (Half-Minotaur Template)

That's pretty bad. I may use the feral half-ogre with dragonblood feats just because it's +3 LA and burning feats for a similar effect.

Deformity(Tall) isn't bad but I'm aiming for the full 'large' effect, not just reach... though now I have it in my head to make a reach-weapon wielding Deformity(Tall) Warblade with Dancing Blade Form.

[The Glyphstone]

well, you could always go with the Fey'ri and take the Otherworldly feat, turning you into an Outsider. That lets you Alter Self into demons all you like.

[jcsw]

Oh I didn't notice that bit. It's listed as an unarmed claw attack and not a natural attack. Interesting. I might just refluff the Deformity(Teeth) bite attack then, though it's a wimpy little d4 damage but has more utility.

A +2 LA Fey'ri combined with the Feral template just might pull it off too. It really depends on what I can talk the DM into. :smallamused:

Just noticed that Fey'ri only turn into humanoids with their alter self ability. So there goes my large size again. Of course, if it was to the outsider type, most of this would be moot anyway. I want to be big!

Edit:
Feral Half-Ogre may do it, but then I'd still be missing the wings. (and be applying a humanoid/monstrous humanoid template to a giant but I think I can get away with that.)

Edit:
I think I've got it! Spoilered below:
Feral Half-Ogre
Large Monstrous Humanoid (or Giant) [Dragonblood]
+10 Strength
-4 Dexterity
+4 Constitution
-6 Intelligence
+2 Wisdom
-2 Cha
• Large Size
• 40’ Movement, Glide 30' (average)
• HD increase to d10s
• Darkvision 60’
• 8 HD - 90'
• 12 HD - 120'
• Fast Healing 2
• 4 HD - 3
• 8 HD - 4
• 12 HD - 5
• +6 Natural Armor
• 2 claw attacks (2d6)
• Improved Grab
• 4 HD - Pounce
• 8 HD - Rake
• 12 HD - Rend
• Level Adjustment +3
• Favored Class: Barbarian

Feats:
Dragontouched (requires 11 cha)
+1 HP
+1 listen, search, spot
+1 to saves vs. paralysis/sleep
Adds the Dragonblood subtype
Dragon Wings
+1 racial bonus to jump, can negate damage from falling and glide forward 20' for every 5' descended. Can glide at a speed of 30' with average maneuverability. Restricted to light load. If unconscious or helpless while falling, wings unfurl automatically and character takes only 1d6 falling famage regardless of distance

Flaw: Undecided, but must be taken to allow a 2nd feat at first level as Dragon Wings must be taken at first level.

Books used:
Races of Destiny (Half-Ogre)
Savage Species (Feral Template)
Dragon Magic (Dragon-Touched)
Races of the Dragon (Dragon Wings)
Unearthed Arcana (Flaws)


He's a little dumber than I'd wanted but not bad for a LA of +3! I'll probably pick up Improved Dragon Wings when I can to allow true flight, but I don't mind being limited to gliding. Flight wasn't really the objective anyway.

I'm still open to suggestions (and grateful for all the help). What do you think?

I'm pretty sure "Humanoid form" doesn't mean humanoid type, because the books often use "Humanoid" as a description, whether or not it actually is a humanoid type.

Besides, if it only allowed turning into humanoids, they would have said they "can use Alter Self at will, except that they can only change into creatures with the humanoid type, even though they are outsiders."

In fact I'd think they can't even turn into the Humanoid type, due to the text of alter self only allowing you to change into the same type that you are.

Maybe it's just my reading though...

[Irreverent Fool]

well, you could always go with the Fey'ri and take the Otherworldly feat, turning you into an Outsider. That lets you Alter Self into demons all you like.

Actually the Fey'ri are already Native Outsiders, but the description of their alter self at-will ability reads:

Alter Self (Sp): Fey'ri can use alter self at will to assume any humanoid form, and can remain in that form indefinitely.

But thank you for alerting me to that feat. It may help me fulfill my other criteria.


I'm pretty sure "Humanoid form" doesn't mean humanoid type, because the books often use "Humanoid" as a description, whether or not it actually is a humanoid type.

Besides, if it only allowed turning into humanoids, they would have said they "can use Alter Self at will, except that they can only change into creatures with the humanoid type, even though they are outsiders."

In fact I'd think they can't even turn into the Humanoid type, due to the text of alter self only allowing you to change into the same type that you are.

Maybe it's just my reading though...

I'd like to think that too, but given the fluff and the fact that they bothered specifying at all instead of just saying that they can use the ability 'at will and for an unlimited duration', I think that they are meant to turn into humanoid forms to better blend in.


Fey'ri are obviously different from normal elves and could quickly be killed by most other elves if discovered. Luckily for them, their demonic bloodline gives them several abilities, including the ability to change their shape. Thus they can pass freely among other creatures without causing alarm.

Not that I don't want my character to be able to alter self into an Advespa and gain four claw attacks and flight at 4 HD.

[Te'Shen]

Ok... I'm curious if I'm reading this incorrectly, or if crystalkeep is wrong.

The half minotaur grants the listed racial bonuses and the benefits of changing sizes... that's what makes it so monstrous. So going from a medium creature to a large creature changes does this (Medium to Large: Str +8, Dex -2, Con +4, Natural Armor +2, AC and Attack -1) in addition to the Str +4, Con +2, Int -2, Wis +2, Natural Armor +2, and all the other things like the track feat and darkvision and etc.

Unless I'm reading it wrong. We've houseruled an alteration to the template... the base modification is a +1 for just the minotaur and the size change is an additional +1, although it's still just too good for how we've played it.

[Kyace]

Having not read the template in question, I /will/ say that the quoted stat changes for increasing in size is only for increasing due to HD advancement. When increasing in size by other ways, don't apply these mods, generally the method that increases the size has it's own rules. If they don't mention any mods to a stat, you don't get it.

I'll look up crystal keep for the template to see what it says, I might have to edit my post shortly. :P

Edit: Well, Crystal Keep's version does literally say to increase size change abilities scores as appropriate. Unless the writer has no understanding of balance, I would assume they meant using Enlarge Person's ability changes, but I don't have a copy of the Dragon magazine, as it's possible Crystal Keep obfuscated which ability changes to use when it shortened.

[Irreverent Fool]

Having not read the template in question, I /will/ say that the quoted stat changes for increasing in size is only for increasing due to HD advancement. When increasing in size by other ways, don't apply these mods, generally the method that increases the size has it's own rules. If they don't mention any mods to a stat, you don't get it.

I'll look up crystal keep for the template to see what it says, I might have to edit my post shortly. :P

Well I was pretty sure this was right until I checked the SRD. Under the 'Improving Monsters' section and the 'Reading a Template' subsection, the SRD reads:


If a template changes a creature’s size, use Table: Changes to Statistics by Size to calculate changes to natural armor, Armor Class, attack rolls, and grapple bonus.

So the template is even cheesier than it looks. Dear lord. I've edited my previous post to reflect these changes.

[Vortling]

I would just like to note that I didn't realize the template was that cheesy when I suggested it. I thought the shift to large merely had the effect of casting enlarge person on the creature.

[Kyace]

"changes to natural armor, Armor Class, attack rolls, and grapple bonus." doesn't include ability score changes, if the template does change the ability scores due to size, that's because it explicitly says it does. Everything other than Natural Armor is stuff that normally includes a size modifier, I wasn't aware of the Nat Armor rule but then so few templates change size that it doesn't come up often so that's a small consolation on my part. :/

[Irreverent Fool]

"changes to natural armor, Armor Class, attack rolls, and grapple bonus." doesn't include ability score changes, if the template does change the ability scores due to size, that's because it explicitly says it does. Everything other than Natural Armor is stuff that normally includes a size modifier, I wasn't aware of the Nat Armor rule but then so few templates change size that it doesn't come up often so that's a small consolation on my part. :/


If the Base Creature was of Small or Medium size, its size is
increased by one category, with all the appropriate changes to its
ability scores, etc., plus a +10’ improvement to base movement.
These changes are in addition to the bonuses and penalties listed.

I think you're right about the quoted text. I somehow missed that bit. But the half-minotaur template specifically references changing the ability scores of the base creature. Not that I think this is okay without increasing the LA, but as written it's insane. Wonder if I can slip it past my DM. :smallbiggrin:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe use Variant Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=1), via a level progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) if necessary. One of my favorite half-fiend variants is that of a Goristro (FC1), which would get +8 Str and Con and a size increase (with another +8 str, +4 con, -2 dex). The only problem with that is the lack of wings. Try a Half-Nalfeshnee, as per the link I gave:
Size and Type
The creature’s type changes to outsider. If applied to a base creature of Large or smaller size, increase the base creature's size by one category, with the appropriate ability modifiers for changing a size category. Do not recalculate Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or saves. Half-fiends are normally native outsiders.

Speed
A half-nalfeshnee has bat wings which appear to be far too small to grant it flight. Unless the base creature has a better fly speed, the creature can fly at the base creature’s base land speed (average maneuverability).

Armor Class
Natural armor improves by +4 (this stacks with any natural armor bonus the base creature has).

Attack
A half-fiend has two claw attacks and a bite attack, and the bite is the primary natural weapon. If the base creature can use weapons, the half-fiend retains this ability. A half-fiend fighting without weapons uses a bite when making an attack action. When it has a weapon, it usually uses the weapon instead.

Full Attack
A half-nalfeshnee fighting without weapons uses its bite and both claws when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its bite as a natural secondary attack. If it has a hand free, it uses a claw as an additional natural secondary attack.

Damage
Half-nalfeshnees have bite and claw attacks. If the base creature does not have these attack forms, use the damage values in the table. Otherwise, use the values in the table or the base creature’s damage values, whichever are greater.

Special Attacks
A half-fiend retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains the following special attack.

Smite (Su)
Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack which deals normal damage and forces the target to make a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha modifier) or be Dazed for 1d10 rounds as visions of its worst fears hound it. The creature receives its full Dexterity and shield bonuses to AC if attacked but can take no actions. If the attack misses this ability is still used up for the day. Other demons are immune to this effect. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

Spell-Like Abilities
A half-fiend with an Intelligence or Wisdom score of 8 or higher has spell-like abilities depending on its Hit Dice, as indicated on the table. The abilities are cumulative. Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable once per day. Caster level equals the creature’s HD, and the save DC is Charisma-based. For a Half-Nalfeshnee, use the standard Half-Fiend spell-like abilities but replace Poison with Slow, Contagion with Call Lightning, Blasphemy with Feeblemind, Unholy Aura with True Seeing, and Unhallow with Greater Dispel Magic. (Some DMs may choose different substitutions for spell-like abilities.)

Special Qualities
A half-fiend has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus the following special qualities.

* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Immunity to poison.
* Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10.
* Damage reduction: 5/good (if HD 11 or less) or 10/good (if HD 12 or more).
* A half-fiend’s natural weapons are treated as magic evil weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
* Spell resistance equal to creature’s HD + 10 (maximum 35).

Abilities
Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Con +4, Int +4, Cha +4.

Skills
A half-fiend gains skill points as an outsider and has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-fiend gains outsider skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and add Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, and Use Magic Device to its list of racial class skills. If the base creature has no racial hit dice its class skills are based on its class levels instead.

Alignment
Always evil (any).

Level Adjustment
+4
I would probably use Half-Orc as the base creature with this, which including the jump to large size you would get Str +14, Dex -2, Con +8, Int +2, and Cha +2. Take the feat Improved Flight (RotW) to have Good maneuverability, which is as good as you'll ever need. I'd go Crusader 1/ Barbarian 2/ Crusader 17+, taking Extra Rage and Extra Smiting, which gives you +2 Smite uses which can be applied to your Crusader Smite or your racial Smite ability as you choose each day.

[Kyace]

Specifically and explicitly mean the same thing in this context: I was merely clarifying that all templates don't do this.

[Irreverent Fool]

Well, I've got several potentials put together to run past my DM, but I'd like to continue work on the cheesy one just for fun. Here he is using my DM's altered point-buy system (Stats at 10, from 10-14 is 1 point, 15-18 is 2. 20 point buy)

Vxniel the Lost
Feral Half-Minotaur Raptoran
Large Monstrous Humanoid (Raptoran)

Hit Dice --
Initiative +0
Speed 40', Glide 40'
Armor Class 18 (-1 size, +9 natural)
touch 9, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple +0/+20
Attack Claw +11 (2d6+12)
Full Attack 2 Claws +11 (2d6+12) and gore +6 (1d8+6)
Space/Reach 10'/10'
Special Attacks Improved grab (claw), Dive attack
Special Qualities Darkvision 60', low-light vision, scent
Direction sense, fast healing 2, +4 to escape mazes
+1 CL to [air] spells
Saves --
Abilities Str 34, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills(racial) Jump +10, Climb +1, Listen +2, Search +2, Spot +2
Feats --
Level Adjustment +2

As I stated he is to be refluffed as a demon(or devil, haven't decided) called to the Prime Material in the services of a spellcaster to turn the tide of a war. Fearing retribution, the spellcaster refused to release Vxniel and instead entrapped him in the depths of some catacombs after draining the bulk of his powers. Vxniel raged against his captivity for hundreds (maybe thousands) of years until a treasure-hungry band of adventures mistook the binding seals for the secret door to a horde. He thanked them in the typical manner of a freed demon and painted the walls with the scraps of their bodies.

He wanders the world now in search of the object containing his powers, lost after the demise of his warden. He wants nothing so much as to return to his layer of the abyss and reestablish the power he once held.

I hadn't really thought too much of a class. I'd considered swordsage to gain access to the 'throw' maneuvers and the fire-based attacks, but I've done the martial-adept thing recently and am kind of in the mood for something different. I can always pick up the maneuvers I want later via the feats as Vxniel regains his power, though one thing I'd really like to see is this guy using Aura of Chaos, the 6th level Devoted Spirit stance that lets you reroll any dice during an attack that roll maximum and continue to add them until you 'burn out'.


Specifically and explicitly mean the same thing in this context: I was merely clarifying that all templates don't do this.

Sorry about that, Kyace. My reading comprehension seems to have gone downhill lately... that and I like arguing.

[bosssmiley]

I've been invited to a monstrous campaign with no alignment restrictions. I am aware of all the potential problems but we're all excited.

Anyhoo, I have a character concept I've gone over with my DM. Basically, my desire is to play a demon. I'm looking for something of Large size, natural attacks (preferably two claw attacks), strength bonus, and wings. The trouble is, all the things I've found that grant these qualities have LAs a little too high to play within the DM's guidelines. I'm looking for 2-3 LA if at all possible. Outsider type would be nice, but most of what I want for the character can be refluffed. I'd like DR (any kind, even /magic) but it's mostly to explain why he was able to devastate armies in ages past before his power was diminished by imprisonment, so it isn't required.

I thought I might take a likely candidate and add the 'winged' template, but the +2LA is a bit harsh considering my other criteria. I can always fluff ruined wings or simply not use them. It's more of an aesthetic requirement than a mechanical one.

Large size, Strength bonus, natural attacks, low LA is what I need. Ideas?

Ask your DM if you can use the Tome of Fiends (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28828) monster classes. They're much less fiddly than juggling LA templates. Take levels of True Fiend and Fiendish Brute, then the Wings of Evil feat. Job done.