[3.5E] Epic Non-caster Feats

[Eldariel]

Hello,

I'm sure we all know how 3.5 spellcasters get absolutely insane boosts once they reach epic levels even with Epic Spellcasting reigned in (like max mitigation half the total value and making it CL-based) in Multispell, Automatic Quicken, Improved Spell Capacity and a host of insane feats. That line of thought lead me to thinking what could be done to work towards fixing the caster/noncaster power discrepacy that's so emminently present in Epic. I figured that one option would be to rein the casters in, but if they're hardly stronger than non-Epic casters, then being "Epic" doesn't feel like such a grand thing in the end, now does it?

Scanning through the present Epic noncaster feats, I'm staggered - most of them just effectively mimic lowlevel non-epic spells! Like Blinding Speed > Haste. Or Infinite Deflection > Wind Wall. Or Combat Archery > Arrow Mind. Epic Speed > Expeditious Dodge. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this - Epic feats made for noncasters are simply underpowered. I dreamed up a bunch of Epic feats I figured would help to even this out. To limit caster access to them, I'm using an Epic BAB limitation (BAB+Epic AB), which I'm just going to decide works here. Please tell me what you think of the following:

Defeat Mortal Magic [Epic] - Requires Epic BAB +21, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protections, Pierce Magical Concealment, Spellcraft 12 ranks

Benefit: Mortal Magic offers no protection against you. All attacks you make completely ignore any manners of defensive buffs granted by spells, be it miss chance, AC bonus or other similar effects. Further, if opponent is in a shape other than his native, you can strike straight at his native form ignoring any kinds of defenses shapeshift magic would bestow. Also, your equipment is unaffected by Anti-Magic Fields.

Finally, you can take immediate actions and attacks of opportunity even while the opponent is under the effects of a Time Stop-like effects. It takes more than light speed to escape your notice.

Special: Your caster level, if any, is reduced by 8.


Spell Immunity [Epic] - Requires Epic BAB +21, Mage Slayer, Spellcraft 12 ranks

Benefit: Choose one spell of 9th level or lower. You're immune to any effects of that spell. If the spell is used in your presence, you ignore its effects whatever they may be.

Special: Your caster level, if any, is reduced by 4. You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it, you choose a different spell affected.


Pierce Epic Magic [Epic] - Requires Epic BAB +22, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, Defeat Mortal Magic, Spellcraft 12 ranks

Benefit: As a swift action, you may ignore the effects of one epic spell per day for one minute. This allows you to penetrate epic wards, shrug off epic offense, walk through epic walls and Dispel and to dominate epic magic.

Special: Your caster level, if any, is reduced by 4. You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it you gain an additional daily use of the ability.


Epic Speed [Epic] (rewrite) - Requires Epic BAB +21, Dex 21, Run

Benefit: Your base movement speeds increase by the 30'.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it, your base movement speeds increases by an additional 30'.


Burst Speed [Epic] - Requires Epic BAB +21, Dex 25

Benefit: You may take a move action as an immediate action.


Disrupt Action [Epic] - Requires Epic BAB +21, Str 21

Benefit: Whenever making an attack of opportunity, if you deal damage, the action that caused the attack of opportunity automatically fails.


Mettle of the Immortals [Epic] - Requires Epic BAB +21, Steadfast Determination, Con 25

Benefit: Whenever you'd be reduced to negative HP, you may roll a Fortitude save vs. your negative HP total. If you succeed, you're alive at 1 HP.


Epic Alacrity [Epic] - Requires Epic BAB +21, Combat Reflexes, Dex 24

Benefit: You may take an extra swift or immediate action each round.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it, you gain an additional swift or immediate action per turn.


Epic Parry [Epic] - Requires Epic BAB +21, Combat Expertise, Int 21

Benefit: You may block any form of attacks. Whenever opponent makes an attack or a touch attack, you may make an attack roll as an immediate action. If you exceed the opponent's attack roll, the opponent's attack automatically misses.


Epic Vision [Epic] - Requires 25 ranks in Spot and Listen

Benefit: Your vision is not impaired by Magic. If you succeed the Spot- or Listen-check to pinpoint a creature, you're treated as seeing it normally (as opposed to it having total concealment). Furthermore, you ignore the 20-point adjustment to spot-checks to detect invisible creatures.


Shadow to the Eyes [Epic] - Requires 25 ranks in Hide and Move Silently

Benefit: You gain extraordinary Hide in Plain Sight that you can use without the need for any cover or concealment.


Clouded Mind [Epic] - Requires 25 ranks in Bluff and Sense Motive

Benefit: Your mind is guarded. You're treated as if constantly being under the effects of Mind Blank and Nondetection with CL infinite.


Epic Reach [Epic] - Requires Epic BAB +21, Dex 24

Benefit: Your natural reach increases by 5'.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you pick the feat, your natural reach increases by additional 5'.


Forcebane [Epic] - Requires Epic BAB +21, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protections

Benefit: You may treat Force-effects as if they were Adamantine walls instead. If you manage to break the Force-effect, you leave a hole in the force effect and can move through as if it were any wall.


Soo, what say thee? Any big areas I missed? Maybe something monkeys could take constantly? Any ideas?


EDIT: Added Epic Reach and Forcebane.

[Suzuro]

It seems like there would be a problem with that many immediate actions...but I can't think of any....Oh! The one that lets you take a move action as an immediate action, maybe put a limit on that, so people can't move seventeen times a turn, or some such?

Anyways, these are just what i see with a preliminary sweep over them.


-Suzuro

[DracoDei]

Last one needs higher requirements I think... or maybe make it Caster Level = Equivalent Character Level?


The one that lets you take a move action as an immediate action, maybe put a limit on that, so people can't move seventeen times a turn, or some such?
I would call that unclearly written rather than actually flawed... I am pretty sure what he meant is that you can "borrow" move actions from your next turn... so up to 2 under "normal" circumstances, or 3 if Hasted.

[Draken]

The only reason Defeat Mortal Magic isn't more broken than Epic Spellcasting is because it doesn't affect Epic Spellcasting.

If it does affect epic spellcasting, well, then it is so utterly broken it is not funny.

Spell Immunity, even that of monsters, does not extend to spells that don't allow Spell Resistance, your feat, RAW, allows you to take such a spell, yes, these are among the most broken spells, but it makes no sense for a creature to be immune to certain spells. (Exemple: grease)

Pierce Epic Magic seens to make sure Defeat Mortal Magic isn't as broken as Epic Spellcasting. However, it makes sure that the only epic spell useful against this character is... How can I say... Something with the Slay Seed.

Mettle of the Immortals is either broken or useless.

Option a: Broken: Negative hit points can never go bellow -10. So the max DC of the check is 10. An epic character who can't make a DC 10 Foritude save, with a 25 Con, no less, is being played in a table of people who don't know anything about math.

Option b: Not broken, probably useless: Negative hit points can go bellow -10 for the purposes of the feat. Now get that ubercharger here and make this wretch try his fortitude save DC 170.

Disrupt Action: That is kind of nice I think.

Clouded Mind: CL infinite makes the DM cry.

I will let other people judge the other feats, these are the ones that jumped to my eyes.

[Eldariel]

It seems like there would be a problem with that many immediate actions...but I can't think of any....Oh! The one that lets you take a move action as an immediate action, maybe put a limit on that, so people can't move seventeen times a turn, or some such?

Anyways, these are just what i see with a preliminary sweep over them.


-Suzuro

Alright, thanks. I don't see it being any more of a problem than the already existent Multispell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell), which gives characters the ability to cast a random number of spells - I feel the huge amounts of movement is needed to counteract the spells and to maintain the ability to get up to the casters' skin (where you can affect them). Speaking of which, I'll have to write up a feat that increases your natural reach.


Last one needs higher requirements I think... or maybe make it Caster Level = Equivalent Character Level?

I thought of that, but really, boosting caster level in Epic is ridiculously easy (there're epic spells for that, you can use stuff like Hierophant that has no disadvantages in Epic and so on, not to mention, item-based boosts are bigger in Epic) and that wouldn't actually do anything as they'd always succeed their caster level checks (even if allowing the feat to be picked multiple times for cumulative bonuses). There's probably the golden middleroad there somewhere, but really, I don't see any problems in epic skill monkeys being completely invisible to scrying Magic.

[DracoDei]

Scrying Immunity? Sure, why not.
Immunity to all Mind-Influencing effects with infinite CL is the problem.

In that case it seems to me that it should be a matter of selecting X and Y in the following equation in that case:

CL = (X*ECL)+Y

As a W.A.G. I would say X=2, Y=0.

[Eldariel]

The only reason Defeat Mortal Magic isn't more broken than Epic Spellcasting is because it doesn't affect Epic Spellcasting.

If it does affect epic spellcasting, well, then it is so utterly broken it is not funny.

There's the separate "Penetrate Epic Magic" for this very reason - it does not influence epic magic. I figured this would be kinda necessary, since there're too many individual spells that all bone a melee character so hard he'll never stand a chance, so a categoric immunity to spells used to protect against his attacks (other than simply being somewhere else, of course) seems the least one can do for him, especially since he's already dedicated one of his skill progressions, 3 of his feats and all his class levels towards reaching the qualifications (I mean, c'mon, once you've already taken 3 anti-mage feats you may as well get more bang for the buck off the 4th...).


Spell Immunity, even that of monsters, does not extend to spells that don't allow Spell Resistance, your feat, RAW, allows you to take such a spell, yes, these are among the most broken spells, but it makes no sense for a creature to be immune to certain spells. (Exemple: grease)

Well, things on Epic don't necessarily need to make sense - some guys are just that good. I mean, they can already break the speed of light and walk in the air, see things that don't reflect light and so on. Being able to walk on grease without slipping seems like the least impressive thing he can pull off, just the same as shrugging off some orbs of force.

Speaking of which, I'll have to add an Anti-Force Feat 'cause otherwise any Epic melee character is still boned by a level 7 spell...

Pierce Epic Magic seens to make sure Defeat Mortal Magic isn't as broken as Epic Spellcasting. However, it makes sure that the only epic spell useful against this character is... How can I say... Something with the Slay Seed.


Mettle of the Immortals is either broken or useless.

Option a: Broken: Negative hit points can never go bellow -10. So the max DC of the check is 10. An epic character who can't make a DC 10 Foritude save, with a 25 Con, no less, is being played in a table of people who don't know anything about math.

Option b: Not broken, probably useless: Negative hit points can go bellow -10 for the purposes of the feat. Now get that ubercharger here and make this wretch try his fortitude save DC 170.

Sure, überchargers can kill him. The point isn't to make him really immortal. However, surviving taking 400 points of damage (350 into the normal HP, then DC 50 fort-save) and surviving stuff like maximized Maw of Chaos (DC 120 Fort-save) and such seem like things that could potentially be helpful. A weaker version of this already exists as a stance in Tome of Battle, so the rules definitely work out. That one shuts down after 3 uses, but this one is permanent. Basically, it just gives you immunity to the lesser warriors (like any number of level 1-10s) which you should have anyways, and the power to prolong your life in the face of extreme damage. Also, it's very efficient against all things working off multiple attacks, and in combination with Damage Reduction. I think this is fine as is.


Clouded Mind: CL infinite makes the DM cry.

Maybe I should word it differently: "Scrying and similar spells against the character automatically fail." The only reason I had to write up the CL Infinite was because I templated it off Nondetection. If it doesn't have infinite CL, the mages can just keep casting the Scrying over and over until they can locate the best sneak in the world. That just feels wrong - the mages shouldn't be able to just locate skill monkeys through persistence - it should take using some of the skill monkey's area of expertise instead of just ignoring everything with spells... At least, that's the rationale behind this feat - epic Rogues should be something special!

[Roderick_BR]

I didn't have time to check it all, but how about this for the "broken" feats that grant immunity: Instead of total immunity, make it that they grant a large bonus.
For example, spells that doesn't grant a saving throw now grants a normal saving throw (DM's discretion). Effects that grant saving throw or spell resistence just gain a bonus on the check. Some effects that grant neither could have a chance of failute. A windwall, for example, have 50% of chance of failing to hold an arrow fired by that character.
When fighting epic spellcasters, make another feat with smaller bonuses (a epic wall spell would have only 25% chance of failing, for example).
The idea is showing that a epic warrior can shrug off some effects, not be 100% immune to magic.

And what's the problem with CL infinite? Lots of non-epic spells do that.
"Corellon, the elven patron deity himself, descendes from the clouds, picks up his legendary bow, knocks a godly empowered arrow, and unleashs an attack powerful enough to kill Orcus himself in one blow... and it bounces off the 5th level wizard's windwall." :smalltongue:

[insecure]

It seems like there would be a problem with that many immediate actions...but I can't think of any....Oh! The one that lets you take a move action as an immediate action, maybe put a limit on that, so people can't move seventeen times a turn, or some such?

Keep in mind that you can only take one immediate action per round, so I don't think that it is so broken then.

[bosssmiley]

Excellent. Would happily use these in play (if I ever decided to revisit Epic crazytown), rather than forcing people to take the weaksauce joke feats offered in the ELH. :smallsmile:

[MythMage]

Granting bonuses instead of immunity is pretty much always going to make things play better. Good idea. It allows far more powerful entities to still be a threat while also allowing you to ignore foes that you have a right to ignore based on your level. In fact, I think it's a good house-rule to turn most abilities that grant immunity into +10 saves or really high energy resistance or similar appropriate things.


Burst Speed is horribly broken. That would allow you to easily ruin virtually any form of attack once per turn (way stronger than Epic Dodge, which is already very good), not to mention it gives one vastly more movement out of each turn. If it were ever balanced as a feat, it would only be so somewhere above 35th-40th level.


Epic Alacrity (and Multispell, for that matter) is a poor fix to a flawed system. The only way to add sanity to the system is to either severely limit/remove Multispell or provide enough options to non-casters so that they can get as much use out of swift actions as casters can via Quicken Spell.