[3.5e] Whirling Frenzy

[Uin]

Does Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) have the ability to grant 2 attacks as a standard attack or is it treated like Haste and requires a full attack action? It doesn't say it requires a full attack, so I take it thats the reason everyone likes this variant.

[sonofzeal]

Does Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) have the ability to grant 2 attacks as a standard attack or is it treated like Haste and requires a full attack action? It doesn't say it requires a full attack, so I take it thats the reason everyone likes this variant.
Well, that and AC boost instead of AC penalty, but yes, I think it works on standard attacks too.

[Uin]

Thanks for the quick reply. I'm creating a non-ToB version of Warblade12/Dragonmarked Heir4/Storm Sentry4. Should end up something like Rogue4/Barbarian8/Dragonmarked Heir4/Storm Sentry4.

To be honest I think I like the Barbarian version better, Raging Sky-Priate of Doom an' aw' that.

[tyckspoon]

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

Sorry. It's in the general information under 'Full Round Actions- Full Attack'. You only get extra attacks on a Standard attack action if the ability explicitly says so; otherwise it's covered by that general rule. It also doesn't stack with Haste or Speed weapons.. but it does work very nicely with the Complete Champion Pouncing variant.

[Douglas]

It also doesn't stack with Haste or Speed weapons.. but it does work very nicely with the Complete Champion Pouncing variant.
Actually I think this one does stack with Haste. In my understanding of the rules for sources of extra attacks, Haste-like effects are just one category. A Haste-like effect typically gives an unlimited use bonus attack with no cost or drawback and specifically states it does not stack with other Haste-like effects. A non Haste-like effect typically has an unusual use restriction, a limited number of uses, or a drawback that is paired with the bonus attack, and does not mention stacking with Haste at all.

Examples of Haste-like effects: Haste, Frenzy, Speed weapon property
Examples of non Haste-like effects: Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, Slashing Flurry, Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose, Flashing Sun, Whirling Frenzy.

Flurry of Blows is restricted to certain weapons and (at least initially) gives an attack penalty when used. Rapid Shot is ranged only and gives an attack penalty. Slashing Flurry is slashing only and gives an attack penalty. Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose only work for a single round, must be recovered before being reused, and take a swift action in that round to use. Flashing Sun only works for a single round, must be recovered before reuse, and gives an attack penalty. Whirling Frenzy gives an attack penalty when used. None of these various feats, maneuvers, and special abilities mention Haste at all.

Only a single Haste-like source of bonus attacks works at once, but any number of non Haste-like bonus attacks can stack provided that you can satisfy the use restrictions of all of them and are willing to pay their combined cost. A Monk 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 13 with the right feats could theoretically use Flurry of Blows, Slashing Flurry, Dancing Mongoose, Flashing Sun, and Whirling Frenzy to get 5 bonus attacks with a melee monk slashing weapon, all of which would stack with Haste for a 6th bonus attack. He would take a -11 attack penalty that round, but he could do it.

[Tsotha-lanti]

tyckspoon quoted the relevant rule, and that's what applies. There are very few reasons you ever get multiple attacks on a standard action, and they're all explicitly spelled out. There are no "haste-like" and "non-haste-like" categories of extra attacks.

The general rule about multiple attacks applies because there is no specific exception.

[monty]

tyckspoon quoted the relevant rule, and that's what applies. There are very few reasons you ever get multiple attacks on a standard action, and they're all explicitly spelled out. There are no "haste-like" and "non-haste-like" categories of extra attacks.

The general rule about multiple attacks applies because there is no specific exception.

True, but that doesn't necessarily mean that those other abilities don't stack with Haste.

[Douglas]

tyckspoon quoted the relevant rule, and that's what applies. There are very few reasons you ever get multiple attacks on a standard action, and they're all explicitly spelled out. There are no "haste-like" and "non-haste-like" categories of extra attacks.

The general rule about multiple attacks applies because there is no specific exception.
Regarding multiple attacks on a standard action, yes he did. He did not quote any rule regarding the matter my post was about, which is an entirely separate issue. The distinction between haste-like and non-haste-like effects has nothing whatsoever to do with getting multiple attacks on a standard action, only with stacking of bonus attacks when you make a full attack.

[tyckspoon]

True, but that doesn't necessarily mean that those other abilities don't stack with Haste.

I admit this is an equally valid interpretation. The problem arises because 'similar effects to Haste' is a uselessly vague statement.. and one that is, to the best of my knowledge, completely undefined in the rules. It could mean anything from any ability that gives you more attacks than are in your BAB line (so Haste/Speed wouldn't stack with Flurry or TWF or Rapid Shot.. a little extreme, but not inconsistent with the text) to something like 'spells or effects of the Transmutation school that operate by making the target(s) move faster.'

I think I was interpreting it by drawing a distinction between, essentially, status conditions and special attack options. Special attacks would be things you decide to do at the time of making the attack- Rapid Shot, Flurry, Snap Kick, Two-weapon fighting. Status conditions are passive benefits that you just have once they've been applied to you- Haste, Speed weapons, Righteous Might. You can combine as many special attack options as you have available, but can only get an extra attack or attacks from one status condition at a time. Confusion arises when you have to decide whether things like Rage or the Mongoose line of boosts are activated buffs (and therefore status conditions) or special attacks... for what it's worth, I think the Monster Manuals tend to list rage/frenzy-type abilities as special attacks rather than qualities.

[Eldariel]

My understanding of "Haste-like" has always been that Haste and every effect that mentions "Haste-like" is considered haste-like. Every non-Haste source that gives such a bonus specifically mentions that it doesn't stack with Haste, which leads me to believe that things that state they don't stack with Haste-likes are considered Haste-like.

[Tsotha-lanti]

True, but that doesn't necessarily mean that those other abilities don't stack with Haste.

The rule doesn't address that one way or the other. I'm not sure if there's any ruling anywhere about stacking extra attacks in general. (I'd look in the FAQ, I suppose.)

"Haste-like" means nothing within the rules. I'd say that in general, extra attacks don't stack unless it's stated separately, regardless of source - but I'm not sure if this is compliant with the rules. Neither Rapid Shot nor the haste spell say whether they stack, for instance - are feats considered "effects"? This is definitely something that should be dealt with by a FAQ ruling.

If feats aren't effects, then I suppose (Ex) and (Su) abilities might not be, either, and feats/abilities could stack with spells and other effects.

It's a really tricky rules issue, hanging on definitions and interpretations. Even if there's a FAQ ruling, DMs need to make their own call on stacking.

The OP's question is well answered by now, though. Whirling frenzy extra attacks require full attack actions, since no exception is stated for them from the general rule.

[Douglas]

I use the mention of stacking with Haste as the deciding factor for whether something is "similar to Haste". Things that include that doesn't-stack-with-Haste clause are similar to Haste, things that don't aren't. This correlates almost perfectly with the presence or absence of use restrictions and/or penalties paired with the extra attack. Pretty much everything that does say it doesn't stack with Haste has no penalty, can be used with anything, and works whenever the effect is active and you make a full attack. Pretty much everything that doesn't mention Haste comes with a penalty, has restrictions on what you can use it with, or only works once per use.

[monty]

It seems clear, to me at least, that anything that doesn't stack with Haste explicitly says so.

[Uin]

Sorry. It's in the general information under 'Full Round Actions- Full Attack'. You only get extra attacks on a Standard attack action if the ability explicitly says so; otherwise it's covered by that general rule. It also doesn't stack with Haste or Speed weapons.. but it does work very nicely with the Complete Champion Pouncing variant.

Thanks to you too, Tyck. Below is the character, sky-pirates are fun, but I like the fact this particular build is Core+Eberron only.



Valkir d'Lyrandar
Male Half-Elf Rogue4/Barbarian8/Storm Sentry4/Dragonmarked Heir4
CG Medium Humanoid (Elf)

1 Rogue Least Mark (Gust) 1d6 SA, TrapFinding
2 Barbarian Fast Movement, Whirling Frenzy (1/day)
3 Barbarian Favoured in House Uncanny Dodge
4 Rogue Evasion
5 Storm Wind's Embrace
6 Storm Improved Initiative Lyrandar's Shield
7 Heir Lesser Mark (Favour)
8 Heir Additional Action Points, Improved Least (Endure)
9 Heir SOMETHING Improved Lesser (Wall)
10 Barbarian Trap Sense 1
11 Barbarian Frenzy (2/day)
12 Storm SOMETHING Lyrandar's Fist
13 Barbarian Improved Uncanny Dodge
14 Heir Greater Mark (Weather)
15 Barbarian Mark Visionary (Touch) Trap Sense 2
16 Storm Storm Strike
17 Rogue 2d6 SA, Trap Sense 3
18 Barbarian SOMETHING DR 1/-
19 Barbarian Frenzy 3/day
20 Rogue

Spell-Like Abilities
Least; Gust of Wind (7), Endure Elements (3)
Lesser; Wind's Favour (2), Windwall (2)
Greater; Control Weather (2), Storm Touch (2)
Substitutes; Feather Fall, Shield, Ranged Bull Rush, Storm Strike