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TheCountAlucard
2008-10-06, 02:35 PM
The first D&D book I ever read was Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss. I read it before I'd ever picked up a DMG or flipped through the Player's Handbook, before I really knew anything about the game.

One of the biggest things that interested me was the idea of obyriths - demons that were around before the advent of souls from the Material Plane in the Abyss, demons literally formed from the chaos of the plane itself.

They gave me my first idea for a campaign; it would be set in the Abyss, before the tanar'ri overthrew the obyriths.

Then I grew disappointed - there were only two examples of obyriths in the book! How could I make a game about obyriths with only two different varieties? There was no way I could come up with the multitude of obyriths I'd need for such a game. I sighed and pushed the idea onto the back-burners of my imagination.

Recently, the idea has surfaced again, and I mentioned it to some of my friends. "How would you like a D&D campaign, set in the Abyss before the rise of the tanar'ri?" Several of the people I mentioned this to have actually told me that they would enjoy such a game.

What do you think about this? It's still a developing idea - it obviously needs some time and hammering out before I can run such a game, but I'd like to hear input nonetheless.

mostlyharmful
2008-10-06, 02:40 PM
Sounds fun. From what I remember of the book and others like it in DnD outsiders as powerful as Obyriths need to be built on an individual basis around a theme, sounds like a whole lot of work but potentially very very worth it. You'll be playing epic level/high level right from the start bare in mind, this is a big challenge but not something to be put off by.

For high level play I recomend bouncing around dicefreaks for a while to get your brain in gear, and their epic adjustments are generally great for turning it from a mash-up to a workable-ish game.

bibliophile
2008-10-06, 02:54 PM
For a vague hint of an idea see the descriptions of Chaos in John Milton's Paradise Lost, available on project Gutenburg. Here for example is an extract from satan's journey through Chaos to earth. He meets Chaos and Old Night, rulers of the uncreated void from before the making of the world.

Thither he plies
Undaunted, to meet there whatever Power
Or Spirit of the nethermost Abyss
Might in that noise reside, of whom to ask
Which way the nearest coast of darkness lies
Bordering on light; when straight behold the throne
Of Chaos, and his dark pavilion spread
Wide on the wasteful Deep! With him enthroned
Sat sable-vested Night, eldest of things,
The consort of his reign; and by them stood
Orcus and Ades, and the dreaded name
Of Demogorgon; Rumour next, and Chance,
And Tumult, and Confusion, all embroiled,
And Discord with a thousand various mouths.

The poem may give you something to start with (and is probably what inspired the idea of Obyriths). It's a pretty good poem too.

arguskos
2008-10-06, 02:57 PM
If you go with this, play up the Queen of Chaos' war on the Wind Dukes of Aaqa. That'd be pretty neat actually.

-argus

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-06, 03:00 PM
Sounds fun.

Thank you. :smallsmile:


From what I remember of the book and others like it in DnD outsiders as powerful as Obyriths need to be built on an individual basis around a theme, sounds like a whole lot of work but potentially very very worth it.

Indeed; I hardly know where to begin. :smallbiggrin:


You'll be playing epic level/high level right from the start bare in mind, this is a big challenge but not something to be put off by.

This I disagree with. While characters of moderate to high levels are probably a good idea, they are in no way necessary. The Ekolid, for instance, is only a CR 4, and the Sibriex a CR 15.

I'm actually hoping to have the PCs start at level ten or so.


For a vague hint of an idea see the descriptions of Chaos in John Milton's Paradise Lost, available on project Gutenburg. Here for example is an extract from satan's journey through Chaos to earth. He meets Chaos and Old Night, rulers of the uncreated void from before the making of the world.

I've actually been wanting to read Paradise Lost for a long time now. I'll be sure and look it up. :smallsmile:


If you go with this, play up the Queen of Chaos' war on the Wind Dukes of Aaqa. That'd be pretty neat actually.

One more thing to look up, then. :smallbiggrin:

vegetalss4
2008-10-06, 03:06 PM
this sound like an fun idea.
but i disagree on that everyone of them has to be induviduali build, and very powerfull. thats only the ones whos still along after the Tanari took over:smallwink:

mostlyharmful
2008-10-06, 03:06 PM
This I disagree with. While characters of moderate to high levels are probably a good idea, they are in no way necessary. The Ekolid, for instance, is only a CR 4, and the Sibriex a CR 15

Simply by the nature of the environment you're going to need PCs with imunnities/resistancies that stand out from the DnD norm, the regular existance of CR 15 critters mean the higher level groups'll be able to do more in such situations, even if you are able to work together a lower level team they'll be very limited.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-06, 03:10 PM
Simply by the nature of the environment you're going to need PCs with imunnities/resistancies that stand out from the DnD norm, the regular existance of CR 15 critters mean the higher level groups'll be able to do more in such situations, even if you are able to work together a lower level team they'll be very limited.

You're certainly right in that the PCs will be limited - they won't be able to storm one of the iron fortresses of Verrh, but at low levels, are they really expected to, on any plane?

Besides, I wouldn't call the sibriexes "regular" any more than I would call the balors "regular." Higher CR monsters are typically rarer than the weaker variety.

mostlyharmful
2008-10-06, 03:32 PM
You're certainly right in that the PCs will be limited - they won't be able to storm one of the iron fortresses of Verrh, but at low levels, are they really expected to, on any plane?

Besides, I wouldn't call the sibriexes "regular" any more than I would call the balors "regular." Higher CR monsters are typically rarer than the weaker variety.

in a normal environment certainly, in outer planes it depends on the DM. Siberixies are rare now, not necessarilly before the rise of the Tana'ari.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-06, 03:47 PM
in a normal environment certainly, in outer planes it depends on the DM. Siberixies are rare now, not necessarilly before the rise of the Tana'ari.

I realize this, but I'd still peg them as rarer than the weaker varieties of obyrith, as is the situation between dretches and glabrezus in the modern-day Abyss.

mostlyharmful
2008-10-06, 03:53 PM
I realize this, but I'd still peg them as rarer than the weaker varieties of obyrith, as is the situation between dretches and glabrezus in the modern-day Abyss.

So you envisage hordes of lower level demons led by more powerful fiends that survive the change in the abyss. Ok. very alien and very stange campaign. I wish I could have a go.:smallsmile:

I'd also give a good bit of thought to how demons in this world level/progress, what the class and promotion system is just so the players can anticipate how their vicious little so and sos are likely to grow.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-10-06, 06:32 PM
There ARE more obyrinths, just so you know. Try getting the Dragon magazines with Dagon, Demogorgon, and the very last one. It'll help build some Obyrinth lords, give you at least two more obyrinths (Probably more like three though), and give you some decent info on the obyrinth's fall and whatnot.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-06, 06:41 PM
I'd also give a good bit of thought to how demons in this world level/progress, what the class and promotion system is just so the players can anticipate how their vicious little so and sos are likely to grow.

Quite so. The PCs will probably be taking levels in PC classes, instead of relying on the chaotic "advancement" that occurs in the Abyss.


Try getting the Dragon magazines with Dagon, Demogorgon, and the very last one. It'll help build some Obyrith lords, give you at least two more obyriths (Probably more like three though), and give you some decent info on the obyrith's fall and whatnot.

Where would I find it?

Callos_DeTerran
2008-10-06, 09:18 PM
Where would I find it?

You can order them of the Paizo.com site, I know that much, for probably about...40 dollars with shipping/tax. But you'll be getting PLENTY of content to work with the fluff given in the Demoniomicon articles by themselves. I'd actually suggest getting the other Demonimicon magazines if you could but not all of them are being made anymore.

Cuddly
2008-10-06, 09:25 PM
You'll be playing epic level/high level right from the start bare in mind, this is a big challenge but not something to be put off by.

Not necessarily. One could assume that only the most powerful of oby-thingies survived. Pre-tana-other things, they don't all have to be super powerful.

The only problem is- how you roleplay a primordial chaos creature?

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-06, 10:45 PM
The only problem is- how you roleplay a primordial chaos creature?

Good question. It'd truly be an exercise in roleplaying. :smalltongue:

Prometheus
2008-10-07, 02:22 AM
The fact that this is ancient history on a nonmaterial plane gives you some creative story-telling leeway. Your campaign can be about how it really happened, which is always nice. I suggest adding a major influence to the world other than the tanar'ri and the obyriths. Perhaps there is an ongoing war with celestials? Maybe elementals are plentiful and more powerful in this period of the universe's early history? Maybe the Abyss is slowly splitting off from a nearby plane, or undergoing geographic transformation into its more modern state? I don't know much about extraplanar history, but all of these can help you fill in perceived gaps in creature content.

Kaiyanwang
2008-10-07, 02:23 AM
About the wind dukes: in the Oriental Aventures campaign setting web enhancement, Masharpa, you find the Vaati, the race of the wind dukes.

In the arms and equipment guide, you find the artifact defeated Miska, the Wolf-Spider: the rod of the seven parts.

There's one Dragon Magazine with more details of the story, and two swords the wind dukes used at Pesh. SHOULD be Dragon#341

P.S. awesome idea. I like it.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-07, 11:18 AM
P.S. awesome idea. I like it.

Thank you very much. :smallsmile:

Scaboroth
2008-10-07, 11:51 PM
I too am a huge fan of obyriths and the ancient history of the Abyss. The idea of the creepy proto-demon that was not based on a human form always scared me more than any old balor. To fill out the ranks of the obyriths, I noticed their resemblance to Lovecraftian beaties, and just picked the weirdest monsters I could and slapped the fiendish and/or pseudonatural templates on them. Rukarazyll, anyone? What the hell is with that thing?

Here's my suggestion for further reading: pick up "The Book of Fiends" by Green Ronin Press. Yeah, yeah, I tend to avoid third party books because they are so hit-or-miss. But this one's a really good one, and I'll tell you why. One of the authors is Erik Mona, who you may notice is also one of the authors of Fiendish Codex I. Very clearly, it was he who had the idea for the obyriths, since they have been ported directly into The Book of Fiends under a new name. They are called Qlippoth in this tome, but the stats and the flavor are exactly the same. The Book itself contains more info about the ancient history of the Abyss, as well as a few new Qlippoth. But there's lots more there. (mountain-sized demons, abyssal dragons, fiendish locusts...)

All WotC books are a little sanitized, even the ones they claim to be "mature" like the Book of Vile Darkness or the Fiendish Codices (as well they should - kids buy this stuff). The Book of Fiends is free to take things a little further. For example:

Evil crabs - and not the kind you find on the beach. Or how about an animate puddle of demonic semen?
Ew.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-07, 11:58 PM
For example:

...Creepy. Yeah, I doubt that'd ever get into a WotC splatbook.

By the way, I'm already starting to get some interested players, and I don't even have a plot yet! :smallbiggrin:

Grail
2008-10-08, 12:12 AM
Sounds like you've got an interesting idea there. Best and worst thing about ideas like this, is that there is very little written material. This means that you can strike out on your own and devise what you want. However, if you don't, you end up with nothing.

A good way to come up with quick fire fiends, is to borrow from other sources.

Take a stock creature from a source book (MM, Folio, Compendium, whatever), that you like. Add a template to it, change the description to match what you want and blamo, new creature.

I've done this plenty of times for my long-term and high powered Realms campaign. Lots of new daemons and Abyssal monstrosities by taking existing creatures and modifying them and then applying a new description to them. Players generally don't pick up that it is a stock creature that's been modified.

Example: I took a Dire Tiger, added the Fiendish and Half-Dragon templates to it, made it look like a cross between a Feline and Snake (it was had a sleak, sinuous body that was covered in fine, smooth black scales, it had slightly acidic blood, yellow eyes and small vestigal wings), and I had a new monster ready to go. This critter could spit acid, smite good and had a decent intelligence. The bodies would break down and dissolve once dead and it had the Outsider subtype. Knowledge (Planes) said that it was a Wratc, a subservient form of Fiend that were bred as beasts of war and sport. Players had no idea that it was just a stock creature with templates.

I did the same with an entire race of humans (the characters ended up calling them Sub-Humans). They had blotchey, lumpy skin, tubes going into their mouths and backs etc, which allowed them to breathe and survive in the harsh climate of Thanatos - where they came from. These were just humans made into 2HD critters and given the Fiendish Template. But the players thought of them as an entire race.

Again, I've done something similar with a type of Undead that are some of the BBG's in the game "Breathless". They are Vampire Spawn with the Epic Paragon template and a few other minor tweaks, and then made slightly unique by adding individual special abilities for each one.

As to the level of the game, it can be as high or low powered as you want. Granted, with lower power levels, the characters will need to be a whole lot more careful, and the campaign will take on a completely different style, but it can be done. I had my guys when they were 9th and 10th level running around on Acheron.

A good rule of thumb is that powerful creatures (even Daemons and Devils) don't always attack. They may have other agendas, or simply not be in the mood. So, lower level characters can get away with the occasional encounter - just don't make it common place, or the big guys can lose that aura of power and menace.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-08, 12:40 AM
Sounds like you've got an interesting idea there. :smallsmile: Thank you!

When I get a chance to work on some monsters, I'll post 'em here.

Asbestos
2008-10-08, 10:07 AM
For some reason I thought there were more of these buggers in the books... but could only find that one CR 10 guy in the MM V.

Anyway, my suggestion is to just start reskinning aberrations. Both of them seem to be heavily influenced by the same sort of chthulhu/elder gods mythos.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-08, 12:43 PM
For some reason I thought there were more of these buggers in the books... but could only find that one CR 10 guy in the MM V.

There's also one in Elder Evils, and that's all the love that the Obyrith seems to have been given, which is very disappointing. -_-

hamishspence
2008-10-08, 01:54 PM
And Dragon magazine: some demonomicon articles.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-08, 02:16 PM
And Dragon magazine: some demonomicon articles.

Yeah; sadly, I've never read Dragon, and, being short on cash as I am, it's unlikely that I will soon...

Lycan 01
2008-10-08, 02:51 PM
Hmmm... I like the idea. I just wish I knew more about DnD's Lore, so I dunno how much help I can be.

Might I suggest a writhing mass of claws, maws, tentacles, and limbs as one enemy? Its assured to break their minds and bodies, plus it fits quite well with the whole "chaos" thing.


Maybe giant insectoid creature, like a praying mantis with eyes all over its head, and tentacles, because tentacles always make monsters cooler.

Or a centipede. A centipede with the arms of a man, or some other freaky trait like that... (Yes, I ripped that from Silent Hill 5. :smalltongue:)


Whats the plane itself going to be like? Infinte darkness? A swirling void of color and chaos? A jagged, fiery realm?


Have you played Oblivion, btw? :smallconfused:

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-08, 03:16 PM
Whats the plane itself going to be like? Infinte darkness? A swirling void of color and chaos? A jagged, fiery realm? Well, it's a plane with infinite layers to it, each affected by the chaos in its own way. Pazunia has vast pools of molten iron and massive fortresses, along with portals to other layers. A massive red sun hangs overhead. Thanatos, on the other hand, has ash-grey clouds that obscure the sun, thin air, and vast tundras.


Have you played Oblivion, btw? :smallconfused:

Nope's. -_-

Lycan 01
2008-10-08, 03:23 PM
Watch some videos on youtube or something. It'll give you some ideas, since Oblivion is supposed to be chaotic and whatnot, and its divided into Spheres (read: realms) by the Deadra (read: uber-demons) who control them.

For example, the Deadra of Destruction's realm is magma, man-eating plants, burning corpses, and very wicked looking towers and fortresses filled with traps, fountains of blood, torture devices, et cetera. Meanwhile, the Deadra of Madnesses' realm is colorful, full of crazy people, ever-changing, artistic, et cetera. The Deadra of Knowledge's realm is a never-ending library filled with forbidden knowledge, where the books fly back and forth between the shelves. There are Deadra's for Dusk and Dawn, Hunting, Assassination, Nightmares, Order, and even one for partying and endulging in hedonistic desires...

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-08, 05:21 PM
The land isn't just chaotic; it's also evil. Ships flying around, made of flayed skin and bound souls. A river that leeches the memories away from those who come into contact with it. The landscape itself is malevolent.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-09, 08:01 PM
I decided to post my obyrith ideas on the Homebrew thread, and everything else pertaining to the campaign here...

One of my players is wanting to play a Maug (Fiend Folio) Warblade. Essentially, he'll be a big stone robot from Acheron. :smallbiggrin:

Callos_DeTerran
2008-10-09, 09:09 PM
Just a note, from what it suggests with what little material there is from the time, the land scapes haven't changed all that much aside from personal demonic realms. If it's set at the time of the fall of the obyrinth then there should be incursions from celestials since that was the time of most quests into the Abyss since it was only then that the tanari rose up.

Something else to keep very much in mind...this was also the time that all the legendary demon lords like Demogorgon, Orcus, and so on were the most active. Especially Demogorgon.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-09, 09:30 PM
Just a note, from what it suggests with what little material there is from the time, the land scapes haven't changed all that much aside from personal demonic realms. If it's set at the time of the fall of the obyrinth then there should be incursions from celestials since that was the time of most quests into the Abyss since it was only then that the tanari rose up.

Something else to keep very much in mind...this was also the time that all the legendary demon lords like Demogorgon, Orcus, and so on were the most active. Especially Demogorgon.

It's not set at the fall of the obyrith, though.

Here's the timeline...

Obyriths utterly rule the Abyss

The first Chaotic Evil souls start trickling their way into the Abyss, becoming larvae.

The Queen of Chaos, realizing that the souls have to come from somewhere, rallies obyriths to the cause of taking over the other planes.

The Sibriexes begin to experiment with the larvae and make the first tanar'ri.

My game begins.

The Queen of Chaos slays Obox-Ob and appoints Miska the Wolf-Spider as the Prince of Demons.

Miska the Wolf-Spider is slain by the Wind Dukes of Aaqa.

The Great Upheaval. The tanar'ri turn on the obyriths and slay them. At the same time, a mass of eladrins mount an attack on the Abyss. The Queen of Chaos flees and the tanar'ri rise to power.

Present

Grail
2008-10-09, 10:03 PM
Sounds like you've got a good idea for what you want to do, and often that's the biggest challenge.

When I took my characters into the Abyss and through Thanatos, it was an interesting series of sessions. Doing anything other than the norm can really make for interesting, unique and memorable gaming sessions.

My crew are going through an Apocalyptic Forgotten Realms game which is much different from the status quo of most games, and it's been pretty cool. My only concern with your game is that I will not be playing in it.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-09, 10:11 PM
My only concern with your game is that I will not be playing in it.

Aww, now you're making me feel sad! I'm already playing in two PbP games and another IRL, and DMing a PbP game, and another IRL.

EvilElitest
2008-10-09, 10:48 PM
Dude, i love the idea, go for it. Really, sounds great

I would suggest looking into the older Demon legends for inspiration beause your right there isn't enough content on them

Oh here is a great idea, start a thread in homebrew asking for more demon types there. Teh homebrew boys will go take pictures of their bosses and you'd have some new monsters :smallbiggrin:

Oh grail, for that mega post, may i award you DM badass of the day?
from
EE

Grail
2008-10-09, 11:23 PM
Aww, now you're making me feel sad! I'm already playing in two PbP games and another IRL, and DMing a PbP game, and another IRL.

Well, I'm only running 2 IRL games.
One of them though has the characters now at 20-21st level, after starting at 2nd. Been going for almost 4.5 years.

No PbP games for me. Don't have the ability really to do it, too many sites get blocked from work, and no time at home to do it.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-10, 12:17 AM
Well, I'm only running 2 IRL games.
One of them though has the characters now at 20-21st level, after starting at 2nd. Been going for almost 4.5 years.

Coolies. :smallbiggrin:

The other players really don't have any clear concept for their characters yet... :smallfrown:

Lycan 01
2008-10-10, 11:25 AM
My currect work load:

2 RL Cthulhu campaigns I'm Keeping (Silent Hill might get cancelled, the Cthulhu campaign is going to begin ASAP)
1 pbp Cthulhu session I'm Keeping (10-12% done, I'd say...)
1 pbp game I'm in (WW1 Dwarf infantry thing... quite fun!)

1 RP I'm in (A Werewolf game on the Elder Scrolls forums)
1 RP I might Host (Elder Scrolls survival-horror dungeon crawl)

College Stuff (Self-explaining)


Too much? :smallconfused:

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-10, 12:20 PM
College Stuff (Self-explaining)


Too much?

This, by itself...

TOO MUCH! :smalltongue:

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-24, 02:25 PM
Bit of an update - I've got five people who are interested in playing.

The Maug Fighter, by the way, has an AC of 37, and that's before applying his Combat Expertise. I took the time to compare the character to a Clay Golem - he can reliably hit it on a roll of a 3 or better, while it can't hit him except on a 20.

One of my players is rather attached to the idea of playing a catgirl-esque rogue character... any suggestions? I looked at all the rakshasas, but their Level Adjustments and Racial Hit Dice were crazy, considering that I'm trying to go for ECL 10.

FoE
2008-10-24, 02:56 PM
Just so you know ... Sertrous, who most Yuan-ti worship, was an obyrith before he got killed. If you want some stats, I suggest looking at Elder Evils or getting the stats from someone who has.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-24, 03:07 PM
Just so you know ... Sertrous, who most Yuan-ti worship, was an obyrith before he got killed. If you want some stats, I suggest looking at Elder Evils or getting the stats from someone who has.

Don't worry, already done all that.

Reinboom
2008-10-24, 03:09 PM
Bit of an update - I've got five people who are interested in playing.

The Maug Fighter, by the way, has an AC of 37, and that's before applying his Combat Expertise. I took the time to compare the character to a Clay Golem - he can reliably hit it on a roll of a 3 or better, while it can't hit him except on a 20.

One of my players is rather attached to the idea of playing a catgirl-esque rogue character... any suggestions? I looked at all the rakshasas, but their Level Adjustments and Racial Hit Dice were crazy, considering that I'm trying to go for ECL 10.

Catfolk, from Races of the Wild
+10 ft. Movement, +4 Dex, +2 Charisma. only +1 LA, no HD.
Wonderful for a Rogue.
Oh, and +2 to move silently.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-24, 03:17 PM
Catfolk, from Races of the Wild
+10 ft. Movement, +4 Dex, +2 Charisma. only +1 LA, no HD.
Wonderful for a Rogue.
Oh, and +2 to move silently.

I'll have to point that out to her when I get the chance.

Still, that'd mean she's the only party member who currently needs to eat or sleep...

By the way, is Miska the Wolf-Spider statted out anywhere? How's about the Queen of Chaos? Heck, I'll even settle for pictures...

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-26, 02:40 PM
Also, any ideas on potential adventures in the Abyss during this time period?

Scaboroth
2008-10-27, 03:58 AM
Check it out here (http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=732&p=12300&hilit=miska#p12300). This write-up of Miska is fascinating and scary as Hell. A 33HD outsider with 27 Fighter levels? Wicked.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-27, 01:49 PM
Check it out here (http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=732&p=12300&hilit=miska#p12300). This write-up of Miska is fascinating and scary as Hell. A 33HD outsider with 27 Fighter levels? Wicked.

Scary indeed. It's certainly something that my players will never want to mess with...

Trying to come up with some Abyssal adventures at the moment, and maybe some obyrith Demon Lords.