[3.5]Chain wielding maniacs

[herrhauptmann]

Hallo,
I'm getting set to join a game starting at ECL 3, DM will allow almost everything except, gestalts, feral template, and variants of main classes (non casting paladin for one), no flaws allowed at the moment.
We've already got 1 guy who's playing a Neanderthal Barbarian, a cleric (no idea if they're any good or not) and me. I was going to do a leap attacking combat brute, but figure with the caveman, we got enough bashing already. So I'm putting together a few other characters, I'll chose one depending on what everyone else ends up using.
Currently I'm working on a chain fighter, level 3. Rolled stats are 16,17,14,14,12,11.
If there's no rogue in the party, he'll be rog1, ftr 2. Otherwise, it'll be ftr 3.
Now the problem is that I'm stuck on his feat progression, and I'd appreciate any help or advice you guys can offer.

Here's what I've got now:
Rog1: Exotic weapon prof, combat reflexes
Ftr1: Deft Opportunist (+4 on AoOp)
Ftr2: Weapon Focus :chain
Ftr2: Vesxing flank (+4 when flanking)
Ftr 4: Adaptable flanker (any square I threaten, can be used to give allies flanking)
Ftr5: Combat Expertise
Ftr6: Improved Trip
Ftr8: Vae School (drow of underdark. If I get flank or sneak attack, after hitting enemy, I get free trip attempt. If I fail, he can't trip me. Usable once per round)

Now what bothers me, is that there's a lot of feats I'd like to get, and I think I'd be uselessly limiting myself by not taking them now.
Such as dodge/mobility/sidestep (5ft step each AoOp I make), dodge/mobility for shadowdancer PrC, Power Attack/Cleave/great cleave. Powerful charge/greater powerful charge. Foe Specialist. And mageslayer(especially useful if our wizard sucks, I can't match him, but at least I can hurt him when he wants to cast).

Thanks
HH

[Eldariel]

You need to focus on the most important feats first. The ones that give you the biggest bang for the buck. Move Weapon Focus down the line and pick up Improved Trip ASAP. After that, Power Attack. Then go down from there. I'd drop Vexing Flanker unless you're guaranteed an ally to flank with constantly (for example, Druid with Animal Companion, or Island of Blades-Swordsage).

Don't bother with Mobility (unless as a prerequisite) or Weapon Focus - your other feats are so much more important. Dodge > Sidestep with Robilar's Gambit is a fine idea. Likewise, picking up two Crusader-levels later for a bunch of maneuvers+Thicket of Blades (all movement in your threatened area provokes AoOs) seems like a darn good idea. Really, there're too many feats in the game to pick all the useful ones so you have to prioritise - pick the most useful ones first.

Power Attack? Great. Cleave? Less great. Greater Cleave? Way, way too rarely useful to pick up unless it's a free bonus.

Weapon Focus? Meh. Weapon Specialization? More meh. Melee Weapon Mastery? Great, but costs you two meh-feats to pick, so unless you have nothing better to do than to get +1 to hit for a feat, don't bother.

Dodge? Meh. Mobility? Worst feat in the game - if you have Tumble, it never does anything. Sidestep? Great with Robilar's Gambit, but look at the cost of picking it. Same goes for Elusive Target - unless you really have a good reason to pick the feats, you shouldn't bother with any of this simply because of the price of entry - Dodge and Mobility are two feats that basically do nothing.


Since you're a Fighter, you can afford Improved Bull Rush > Shock Trooper later just for added oomph - you'll keep doing your thing while at it. Also, you may want to pick up Standstill to prevent big things from moving - Improved Trip is useless against Huge things or biggers (without sizeincreasing magic anyways).

[herrhauptmann]

What/where is elusive target? I did find Clever Opportunist (drow of underdark), which allows me to switch places with a foe I strike with an AoOp.
I'll think about Robilars Gambit when I get close to level 12.

I know that the weapon focus feats are only average, but I need ways to ensure I hit my enemies. And like you said, I don't know for a fact my allies will help out with my battle plan. Of course if they do, all those feats I took will give them the bonuses they need to kill off the enemy faster.

Yeah, trip sucks with regards to the size issue, but disarm doesn't give enough AoOps, which is why I figure I'll raise my strength to 18 at level 4, then set about procuring items for both str and dex.

edit: Just noticed standstill on your list. No idea on that one, and to be honest, I've never felt I fully understand ToB or Psionics.

[Eldariel]

Eh, +1 to hit isn't significant enough for one feat. Seriously, it's 5% per attack (and many attacks would hit likely enough anyways, and others don't really have a chance even with it) - pick it if you've got feats to spare, but not before. Alone, it's statistically about one-in-10 improvement. If your Trip succeeds, you're already at +4, and other +2-+4 from flanking, I seriously wouldn't worry about

Elusive Target is a tactical feat in Complete Warrior: Allows you to negate Power Attack-damage from your Dodge-target (incredibly good), allows you to make a flanking opponent hit the flanker instead of you and allows you to make a trip-attempt by provoking an attack of opportunity that misses (moving out of a threatened square).

EDIT: Oh yeah, Jotunbrud is awesome regional feat - treats you as Large for tripping and all such (in other words, +4 and trip Huges).

[MeklorIlavator]

Good thing that Standstill is simply a normal feat that got placed in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, then. Here it is in its entirety(it's also in the SRD):


Stand Still [General]

You can prevent foes from fleeing or closing.
Prerequisite

Str 13.
Benefit

When a foe’s movement out of a square you threaten grants you an attack of opportunity, you can give up that attack and instead attempt to stop your foe in his tracks. Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round.

Since you use the Stand Still feat in place of your attack of opportunity, you can do so only a number of times per round equal to the number of times per round you could make an attack of opportunity (normally just one).
Normal

Attacks of opportunity cannot halt your foes in their tracks.

[AslanCross]

Knock Down may seen redundant, but I think it works fine with a trip build.

[sleepy]

Eh, +1 to hit isn't significant enough for one feat. Seriously, it's 5% per attack...

Now I'm not about to claim weapon focus is such a great feat, but I keep seeing this analysis and I really don't get how people arrive at that conclusion. I get that it adds 1 possible dice result, and that the chance of rolling any given number is 5%, but... assume you're attacking an AC you need a 19 or 20 to hit. You add +1 and now hit on an 18, 19 or 20. Possible hit results just increased from 2 to 3, a 50% jump. If you're for some reason fighting something this far above appropriate encounter level weapon spec represents a 50% increase in hit rate for the same 5% increase in chance to hit. On a more reasonable requirement of a 12 to hit, your hit results increase to 9 from 8 and represent a 12.5% increase in hit rate. If your iterative attacks hit on 7, 12, and 17, the average increase to hit rate over your 3 attacks is 17.8%

Am I making a logical fallacy here or is calculating the bonus to dps as 5% just wrong?

[Animefunkmaster]

Knockback is superior to knock down.

Power attack 1 on a touch attack (for a trip). Succeed, trip attempt + bullrush attempt. Sucessful trip = another attack + power attack and another bullrush.

Adding knockdown gets an extra attack (or rather instead of the initial touch attack). Dungeon crasher fighter variant (I know no variant base classes), but its worth it and you don't need to use rogue and flanking for bonus damage.

[Eldariel]

Now I'm not about to claim weapon focus is such a great feat, but I keep seeing this analysis and I really don't get how people arrive at that conclusion. I get that it adds 1 possible dice result, and that the chance of rolling any given number is 5%, but... assume you're attacking an AC you need a 19 or 20 to hit. You add +1 and now hit on an 18, 19 or 20. Possible hit results just increased from 2 to 3, a 50% jump. If you're for some reason fighting something this far above appropriate encounter level weapon spec represents a 50% increase in hit rate for the same 5% increase in chance to hit. On a more reasonable requirement of a 12 to hit, your hit results increase to 9 from 8 and represent a 12.5% increase in hit rate. If your iterative attacks hit on 7, 12, and 17, the average increase to hit rate over your 3 attacks is 17.8%

Am I making a logical fallacy here or is calculating the bonus to dps as 5% just wrong?

My wording is wrong since I don't expect the need for precisions when not talking to mathematicians. The chance to hit for every +1 increases by 5 percentage-units. That's the mathematically correct terminology, and the relevant number as far as damage calculations and such go (although the percentual changes also yield the correct numbers). 1d20 has 20 possible outcomes so each outcome has a 5% chance of happening and with +1 to anything, there's one additional 5% chance that yields the desired result. So percentage-units is the term I should be using, but as I said, since I'm not talking with mathematicians, I figure the basic "percentage" will get the point across better.

[Curmudgeon]

This build seems too specialized to me. You've got no distance combat capability; any archers with decent movement can kill you from a distance. Plus you'll find that tripping stops working against some opponents from level 5 on, for a variety of reasons:
At level 5 the Fly spell becomes available. You don't do anything useful if you trip a non-winged flying opponent. Plus they can stay above your reach and kill you easily.
The Nimble Stand skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) can be taken at level 5, allowing opponents to stand from prone without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Opponents who max out Tumble will be able to move through your threatened area with impunity when they can reliably make a DC 15 check.
Starting at level 7 opponents may make a Balance check to oppose your trip attempt. (See Complete Adventurer page 97.) Skill ranks go up faster than your STR increases, so they'll rapidly become untrippable.
The Back on Your Feet skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) can be taken at level 9, allowing opponents to stand from prone as an immediate action without AoOs.

[AslanCross]

This build seems too specialized to me. You've got no distance combat capability; any archers with decent movement can kill you from a distance. Plus you'll find that tripping stops working against some opponents from level 5 on, for a variety of reasons:
At level 5 the Fly spell becomes available. You don't do anything useful if you trip a non-winged flying opponent. Plus they can stay above your reach and kill you easily.
The Nimble Stand skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) can be taken at level 5, allowing opponents to stand from prone without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Opponents who max out Tumble will be able to move through your threatened area with impunity when they can reliably make a DC 15 check.
Starting at level 7 opponents may make a Balance check to oppose your trip attempt. (See Complete Adventurer page 97.) Skill ranks go up faster than your STR increases, so they'll rapidly become untrippable.
The Back on Your Feet skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) can be taken at level 9, allowing opponents to stand from prone as an immediate action without AoOs.


I get where you're going, but the DM would still have to go out of his way to render his monsters resistant or immune to tripping.

...btw, are oozes immune to tripping? Just thought of it now, but I don't remember any specific rules.

[Who_Da_Halfling]

I get where you're going, but the DM would still have to go out of his way to render his monsters resistant or immune to tripping.

...btw, are oozes immune to tripping? Just thought of it now, but I don't remember any specific rules.

Not to mention the fact that with your high Strength and Power Attack and increased flanking on a weapon with reach, you're going to be reasonably good in melee even if you're no longer able to make your enemies fight from the prone position all the time :-). You can still force Flanking bonuses for your teammates melee attacks, and any opponent with all the feats/bonuses mentioned will be relatively immune to you but also probably vulnerable to any of your teammates' attacks.

Also, it would be kinda mean metagaming for your DM to deliberately give all your opponents feats and abilities that are explicitly selected to beat your precise build. Unless it's like a recurring villain, or......you're fighting some kind of warrior guild that hates falling over?

-JM

[Curmudgeon]

...btw, are oozes immune to tripping? Just thought of it now, but I don't remember any specific rules. Yes, as are all other land creatures without legs; all water creatures; and all flying creatures without wings. (Tripping winged creatures forces them to stall.)

[Eldariel]

This build seems too specialized to me. You've got no distance combat capability; any archers with decent movement can kill you from a distance. Plus you'll find that tripping stops working against some opponents from level 5 on, for a variety of reasons:
At level 5 the Fly spell becomes available. You don't do anything useful if you trip a non-winged flying opponent. Plus they can stay above your reach and kill you easily.
The Nimble Stand skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) can be taken at level 5, allowing opponents to stand from prone without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Opponents who max out Tumble will be able to move through your threatened area with impunity when they can reliably make a DC 15 check.
Starting at level 7 opponents may make a Balance check to oppose your trip attempt. (See Complete Adventurer page 97.) Skill ranks go up faster than your STR increases, so they'll rapidly become untrippable.
The Back on Your Feet skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) can be taken at level 9, allowing opponents to stand from prone as an immediate action without AoOs.


Most of those aren't an issue except if dealing with the Thieves' Guild. And even then, Balance is all good, but Trip gets size increases and such so it can be pretty mean (it's worth remembering that stock monsters don't have trained Balance and no skilltricks). And all the "back on your feet"-stuff still means the guy will be taking a full attack while prone (-4 AC). And if the PC acquires Thicket of Blades, there'll be no Tumbling.

And you can trip airborne guys - just cause someone is flying doesn't mean every position is optimal and while it doesn't put them prone, it doesn't make moving more difficult (although this is a houserule - by RAW, tripping a flying guy puts them prone in the air and probably falling...whatever).

Anyways, becoming a good archer takes way too much effort so he can't really go for it - you'd need Rapid Shot, huge Dex, heavily enhanced bow and such to even matter. Becoming a good thrower would likewise cost multiple feats. It's better to just rely on the party mage and your own movement to get up to the skin rather than to dilute your feats to auxillary goals. If he becomes the best he can at melee, he'll do just fine.

[Curmudgeon]

And all the "back on your feet"-stuff still means the guy will be taking a full attack while prone (-4 AC). Not with Back on Your Feet -- it's an immediate action to stand up from prone, so it happens on the tripper's turn.

I also forgot to mention the spellcaster's option, the Stand spell -- an immediate action to stand up from prone, with no AoO.

[Eldariel]

Not with Back on Your Feet -- it's an immediate action to stand up from prone, so it happens on the tripper's turn.

I also forgot to mention the spellcaster's option, the Stand spell -- an immediate action to stand up from prone, with no AoO.

Eh, Trip > Attack - if they stand now, you'll simply Trip them again with your next attack. I fail to see how that helps them.

[Curmudgeon]

Eh, Trip > Attack - if they stand now, you'll simply Trip them again with your next attack. I fail to see how that helps them.
They don't take any damage from that next attack.
They don't have -4 to AC for that next attack, either.
Your subsequent iterative attacks suffer -5 cumulative penalties, so you might not succeed even with a touch attack.
I hope that helps with your vision failure. :smallamused:

[Eldariel]

Improved Trip = the successful trip > attack. The only difference is that the first attack is made without the +4, you'll have to trip again, and that they don't have a swift action the next turn.