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View Full Version : [3.5] Simple Homeruled Caster "Fixes"



Kaihaku
2008-10-06, 08:43 PM
So, it seems to be considered a significant problem that casters are more powerful than the other classes. I don't mind as much at high levels (I think it's thematic) but at lower to mid levels it bothers me as well.

Does anyone have a simple houseruling to counter this?

I recall someone mentioning that they give casters 1/2 level spell progression so that at level 20 they can only cast up to level 5 spells (come to think of it, isn't that similar to what d20 Modern did?).

For myself, I was pondering... What if all of the base full caster classes were made into prestige classes? Would a Wizard still be viable if they had to take five levels of a non-caster class before becoming a Wizard? There are Prestige Paladins and Prestige Bards, why not Prestige Wizards? Other than giving the classes entry requirements, I don't think any other changes would be necessary making it seem a simple houserule to implement.

Flickerdart
2008-10-06, 08:47 PM
That's an interesting idea, but delaying spells for 5-6 levels means that you'd need to adjust monster saves and SR as well. Sleep and Colour Spray, two excellent 1st level spells, are useless by the time you'd be able to acquire them. Besides, you wouldn't be able to cast 9th level spells (and a lot of stuff lower than that) pre-epic.

Plus, not much thematic sense. Both bard and paladin are focused schisms of the cleric/fighter or rogue/sorcerer. Wizards are made to do one thing, not suck at two. Re-fluffing and adjusting some abilities could help, taking the Ur-Priest as a base model for what needs to be done.

The Glyphstone
2008-10-06, 08:48 PM
That'd just make everyone play Gishes instead, or forget playing casters entirely. Better to use a scalpel than a sledgehammer...I have a fairly extensive list of spells I ban/modify, and a few minor bonuses given to the noncaster classes to help them out.

Casters aren't at all overwhelming compared to the other classes at low levels (low being pre-Polymorph).

Nohwl
2008-10-06, 08:49 PM
arent wizards supposed to be balanced if they cast blasty spells like fireball?

The Glyphstone
2008-10-06, 08:52 PM
And Cleric are supposed to be balanced if all they do is heal...

So you'd have to make the Prestige Sorcerer, Prestige Cleric, Prestige Druid, and Prestige Wizard. It doesn't take much houseruling, but it means that every single person in your entire world must be a Fighter, Rogue, or Monk for their first 5 levels.

Flickerdart
2008-10-06, 08:54 PM
And Cleric are supposed to be balanced if all they do is heal...

So you'd have to make the Prestige Sorcerer, Prestige Cleric, Prestige Druid, and Prestige Wizard. It doesn't take much houseruling, but it means that every single person in your entire world must be a Fighter, Rogue, or Monk for their first 5 levels.
Why so glum? You could start out a Warlock and branch out, or a Hexblade, or even those zany ToB classes. I think it makes for interesting flavour if a magic-like class chooses to become full wizard. Just, you know, impractical.

Kaihaku
2008-10-06, 09:01 PM
Plus, not much thematic sense. Both bard and paladin are focused schisms of the cleric/fighter or rogue/sorcerer. Wizards are made to do one thing, not suck at two.

I think it works thematically as it takes time, experience and study to acquire the knowledge/faith to become a wizard/cleric.

If faith takes time to acquire, Paladin would make sense as a prestige class in a setting like this (I think it makes more sense as a prestige class period) but otherwise the other core classes seem fine as they are to me.

The_Snark
2008-10-06, 09:09 PM
If I were going to make spellcasting classes a prestige class, I imagine I'd take inspiration from the d20 Modern spellcasting classes, which are available after level 3. It keeps the feeling of having to work to learn spellcasting, without requiring quite as much multiclassing.

It's tricky, though, because not all spellcasters are all that powerful. Some (like warmages and dread necromancers) are really specialized, and others simply prefer not to optimize (a lot of evokers, clerics who focus on spellcasting rather than buffing and melee and don't dip into lots of splatbooks for spells); if they have to have levels of something else first, it'll make things worse for them, and actually encourage people to optimize the spellcasters to make it worth it. I think it can be done with a good group, but I wouldn't recommend it as a general fix.

Zeful
2008-10-06, 09:38 PM
I've got a fix that I'm working on, it's incomplete at the moment though.


They start play with access to two schools of magic. At 3rd level they gain access to a third but at a -2 caster level. Then you add this feat.

Expanded School knowledge
Your broad studies into the arcane open up new possibilities.
Prerequisites: Wizard Level 5+
Benefit: You gain access to another school of magic of your choice. You may cast spells from this school as if you were a wizard two levels lower then lowest level school you have access to.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, choosing a new school each time.

In short, access to new school but at -1 spell level.

I feel it's a step away from batman/Tippy wizards.

Kaihaku
2008-10-06, 09:43 PM
If I were going to make spellcasting classes a prestige class, I imagine I'd take inspiration from the d20 Modern spellcasting classes, which are available after level 3. It keeps the feeling of having to work to learn spellcasting, without requiring quite as much multiclassing.

Good thought, the entire concept would work better for low to mid fantasy rather than high fantasy.


It's tricky, though, because not all spellcasters are all that powerful. Some (like warmages and dread necromancers) are really specialized, and others simply prefer not to optimize (a lot of evokers, clerics who focus on spellcasting rather than buffing and melee and don't dip into lots of splatbooks for spells); if they have to have levels of something else first, it'll make things worse for them, and actually encourage people to optimize the spellcasters to make it worth it. I think it can be done with a good group, but I wouldn't recommend it as a general fix.

Valid points all around save that, in a good group, I wouldn't need a fix. :smallwink:

TempusCCK
2008-10-07, 12:37 AM
2nd Edition type initiative- You subtract a number from your initiative roll equal to the level of the spell you cast. Casting a ninth level spell? -9 initiative that round. Helps Melee types keep up tremendously because they can now interrupt that spell instead of wishing they could have a SAD build...

Ban obviously broken things like Solid Fog, Polymorph, Rope Trick, MMM, etc. etc.

Enforce the rules on spells you don't ban. Contingencies have a chance of going stale is something many people overlook.

Extend the number of encounters per day past 4. I know the rules say 4 is balanced, that's a trap. Anywhere from 5 to 8 should make your wizard feel very very strained. Time limits on missions is a good motivation too.

Chronos
2008-10-07, 12:55 AM
One houserule I've seen proposed is that all characters must start with n levels in an NPC class of the player's choice (the value of n depends on how much you want to nerf them). Melee types and rogues aren't too badly hurt by that, since they can take warrior or expert respectively (thus keeping BAB or skills high), but whatever the spellcasters take, it won't stack with their primary spellcasting.

Some other houserules to consider:

All metamagic cost reducers can only be used if you can cast high enough leveled spells to apply all the metamagic without cost reducers. Hence, for instance, a 9th-level wizard could use a 3rd-level spell slot and a Rod of Empower to cast an Empowered Fireball, but a 5th-level wizard could not, since Empowered Fireball is normally a 5th-level spell slot, and he can't cast 5th-level spells yet. This makes a lot of the worst spellcaster builds (DMM clerics, Incantatrix wizards, killer gnomes, etc.) nonviable.

Increase all concentration skill DCs: To concentrate on casting a spell, add twice the spell level to the DC. This makes the DCs keep up with the skill ranks, so that if a wizard is stuck in range of an enemy, he's likely to get disrupted at any level, unless he's casting very weak spells.

Increase all standard-action spells to 1-round casting time. In addition to making it easier to disrupt spells, this also gives the enemy time to react in some way (moving out of the spell's range, for instance, or behind cover).

Either take away the Natural Spell feat entirely, or at least make it a metamagic feat so a druid is penalized for casting in wild shape.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-07, 01:56 AM
I think I'd avoid using spellcasters altogether if I had to take levels in another class first (I can't see how it could be justified from afluff perspective, and I don't like multi-classing anyway). Are Rope Trick and MMM really broken, TempusCCK? I thought they were fine as they are. As far as Wizards being broken goes, would a Wizard who focussed on buffs and utility spells with some battle field control spells be okay without overshadowing people?

Temp.
2008-10-07, 02:17 AM
Easy solution?
Step 1: Ditch all spellcasting classes; introduce Psions in pointy hats and goofy robes.
Step 2: Encourage Tome of Battle use.

This was the central basis of my groups fix:
We killed all spellcasters from Bards to Archivists to Rangers, used Tome of Battle to death and added a healthy dose of EPH. Multiclassing was tweaked a bit--each non-manifester level counts as 1/2 of a manifester level as far as max PP investment is concerned; there are no penalties for unbalanced multiclasses.

Later, we made a heap of other changes (basically creating a Generic class system based around a Manifester who could pick a mental stat and a single power per level, a Martial Adept who basically functioned as an ability-less Warblade who could choose three schools to learn from and a Factotum-type which could choose its primary mental stat; reworking every feat to either scale by level or grant a new ability--often stolen from the class features of the classes we axed), but that sort of thing would probably get confusing without the whole group involved.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-07, 02:34 AM
The problem with that idea is that Psionics aren't that good for healing. Admittedly, I never really liked the idea of Psionics that much (I prefer Vancian casting). I decided to look into a few things to help Psionics uses with healing a while back: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4909397&postcount=14 . Do you think those ideas are balanced?

bosssmiley
2008-10-07, 03:51 AM
Simple fix? No metamagic. None.

That means no Arcane Thesis cheese. No Quicken or Chain cheese. No divine metacheese. And no Incantatrix cheese.

Did I miss anything there? Other than wildshape cheese and polymorph abuse (ban the 1st, use the Tome fix for the 2nd).

arguskos
2008-10-07, 03:55 AM
Simple fix? No metamagic. None.

That means no Arcane Thesis cheese. No Quicken or Chain cheese. No divine metacheese. And no Incantatrix cheese.

Did I miss anything there? Other than wildshape cheese and polymorph abuse (ban the 1st, use the Tome fix for the 2nd).
Yuppers, you missed two issues (though I agree at times):

1st: What about mostly harmless metamagics like Blistering Spell, Invisible Spell, stuff like that?

2nd: Gate. Time Stop. Grease. Celerity. Just sayin'. :smallwink:

On topic, my best bet for fixes is to address the spells first, the non-casters second, and the actual casting mechanic third (if needed at all).

-argus

Kurald Galain
2008-10-07, 04:02 AM
I've got a fix that I'm working on, it's incomplete at the moment though.

Restricting wizards to two schools isn't going to help all that much. They can pick e.g. conjuration and transmutation, and still be awesome.

Kaihaku
2008-10-07, 05:16 AM
I can't see how it could be justified from a fluff perspective, and I don't like multi-classing anyway.

Not in a High Fantasy setting... Well, no, something like Forgotten Realms goes beyond High Fantasy. In a setting where magic doesn't ooze from every pore of the world and is a bit more of a forgotten or secret art I think it works to make it a Prestige Class. Now, in something like Eberron or Forgotten Realms, no it wouldn't.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-07, 05:47 AM
Easy solution?
Step 1: Ditch all spellcasting classes; introduce Psions in pointy hats and goofy robes.
Step 2: Encourage Tome of Battle use.


Add Healers from the Miniature Handbook, or houserule some healing psionic powers, and Bob's your uncle.

1of3
2008-10-07, 05:50 AM
Simple fix: Use gestalt rules and ban the combination of two full-casters.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-07, 06:52 AM
Would healers be that useful, Tengu? I know that a lack of any other source of healing magic would make them much more powerful, but in a normal game, do you think letting them spontaneously cast all of their spells while giving them some non-lethal battle-field control spells and buffs would help them enough?

AslanCross
2008-10-07, 06:54 AM
Honestly I don't think there's any truly viable simple fix. The simplest, I think, is an agreement with the players that they won't cheese the heck out of the game. (Though frankly they rarely even need to try. The wizard in my game is fairly blasty, and even then he kind of breaks encounters by himself.)

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-07, 06:55 AM
Now that I thinkj about it, how hard is it to overcome spell resistance? I know that it doesn't apply to all spells, but I would have thought that it would be a problem for magic users who rely on certain spells.

magellan
2008-10-07, 07:08 AM
2nd Edition type initiative- You subtract a number from your initiative roll equal to the level of the spell you cast. Casting a ninth level spell? -9 initiative that round. Helps Melee types keep up tremendously because they can now interrupt that spell instead of wishing they could have a SAD build...

Ban obviously broken things like Solid Fog, Polymorph, Rope Trick, MMM, etc. etc.

Enforce the rules on spells you don't ban. Contingencies have a chance of going stale is something many people overlook.

Extend the number of encounters per day past 4. I know the rules say 4 is balanced, that's a trap. Anywhere from 5 to 8 should make your wizard feel very very strained. Time limits on missions is a good motivation too.

*Kisses TempusCCKs feet*

What beautiful words of wisdom!

You dont need to balance casters, you need to challenge them.
Anybody remembers what they used to call DMs beefore they called them DMs? Referee.
I say claim that title back Referees all over the world! You dont need Balance! you are a referee and can swing it into the intended direction much better (due to being in the situation) than a "this should be balanced in 99% of the cases" rule could, because ... you are going to hit that 1% some times and run into the "should be" at others...

AslanCross
2008-10-07, 07:18 AM
Now that I thinkj about it, how hard is it to overcome spell resistance? I know that it doesn't apply to all spells, but I would have thought that it would be a problem for magic users who rely on certain spells.

A lot of Conjuration spells ignore spell resistance. The Orb spells ignore SR, and so do a lot of controlling area spells like stinking cloud and black tentacles.

I've seen SR stop enough of a Wizard's spells to frustrate him (happened in a dragon battle), but not everything has SR.

weenie
2008-10-07, 07:29 AM
The best way of "fixing" casters I've seen so far is to give them reduced spell list, as was done with the beguiler and the warmage.

It makes them more playable, and more flavorful. I simply hate that a wizard with 6 charisma is equally effective at enchanting people than a sorcerer(or sorceress :smallwink:) with 18 charisma. It just.. seems out of place.

Saph
2008-10-07, 07:51 AM
So, it seems to be considered a significant problem that casters are more powerful than the other classes. I don't mind as much at high levels (I think it's thematic) but at lower to mid levels it bothers me as well.

Does anyone have a simple houseruling to counter this?

Spellcasters really aren't that great at lower levels anyway. I usually find that they're inferior to melee types at levels 1-4, and about equal for levels 5-10.

But if you want to weaken them, by far the easiest and simplest way to do it is just to ban the best spells. If Sleep, Colour Spray, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Invisibility, and Web are all banned, a level 1-4 core wizard is going to be severely nerfed (probably over-nerfed IMO, but it's up to you).

- Saph

Kami2awa
2008-10-07, 08:02 AM
You could also go the 2e route of making spells take much longer to prepare, increasing casting times and getting rid of Concentration checks and Combat Casting (or making the DCs much higher) for casting in difficult situations, and maybe get rid of metamagic too.

Temp.
2008-10-07, 11:03 AM
Add Healers from the Miniature Handbook, or houserule some healing psionic powers, and Bob's your uncle. Hell, just toss in Ardents or the Touch of Health and Mend Wounds powers from CPsionic and you're done.


You could also go the 2e route of making spells take much longer to prepare, increasing casting times and getting rid of Concentration checks and Combat Casting (or making the DCs much higher) for casting in difficult situations, and maybe get rid of metamagic too. There's a difference between powering-down casters and making them mind-bendingly frustrating to play. There are plenty of ways to do this:
Replace casters with Bard variants--Wizards who replace Bardic music with Familiars and spellbooks, Druids who replace music with Animal Companions and Tracking abilities. Adjust spell list according to niche.
Replace casters with ToM, Warlocks and flavor-neutral Dragon Adepts
Turn all spellcasters into Dread Necromancer/Beguiler/Warmage-types. You'll have to homebrew Abjurers, Transmuters and Summoners, but none of those should be too hard (the Master Specialist classes provide plenty of ideas)
Or just raise the power levels on everyone else. There's no problem if everybody's a spellcaster. In fact, there's little fluff distinction between a Rogue who activates magic through a wand and an Unseen Seer who activates magic through a spellbook. The distinction between a Paladin/Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion/Sacred Exorcist and a straight Paladin is equally hazy. Even when players don't want spellcasting on their abilities list, skillmonkeys and martial adepts can get by without many problems.

Epinephrine
2008-10-07, 12:03 PM
W.r.t. the spelllists, one DM I know restricts Druids and Clerics to spells from the PHB, allowing only 2 spells per level from other sources. Not being able to choose from a HUGE list drops their power a fair bit. Spotaneous spellcasters have limited selection of spells anyway, so limiting abusive metamagic solves these, and wizards/archivists/other spellbook users can be kept in line by limiting access to spells that aren't desired.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-07, 12:32 PM
Would healers be that useful, Tengu? I know that a lack of any other source of healing magic would make them much more powerful, but in a normal game, do you think letting them spontaneously cast all of their spells while giving them some non-lethal battle-field control spells and buffs would help them enough?

Well, you do need *someone* who can heal, and Healers are good at this - they're perfect for people who want to be the White Mage healbot, and, as weird as that is, such people exist (yes, I'm shocked too. No sarcasm here).

Psions with healing powers would be a better choice, though.

AstralFire
2008-10-07, 12:33 PM
Well, you do need *someone* who can heal, and Healers are good at this - they're perfect for people who want to be the White Mage healbot, and, as weird as that is, such people exist (yes, I'm shocked too. No sarcasm here).

Psions with healing powers would be a better choice, though.

One of the recurring complaints about my homebrew system is the fact that there is no easy way to heal people.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-07, 12:39 PM
I like playing as characters with healing abilities (as you can guess from my sig :smalltongue:). I'll look into the Complete Psionic abilities.

Person_Man
2008-10-07, 12:47 PM
The fix which all of my groups use:

Ask players to make their characters at the same table together. This serves two purposes. First, it gives them a chance to talk about their characters, and to create a rationale for being together. Second, it gives them a chance to decide on the general power level of the party. Full casters can easily lower their power level by altering their spell selection. Nerfed hybrid classes (monk, dragon shaman, etc) can up their power level (somewhat) by mining the splat books. And even if Player A ends up much more powerful then Player B, then at least they know this going into the game, which creates far less resentment later in the game when the Wizard starts to abuse Solid Fog.



Add Healers from the Miniature Handbook, or houserule some healing psionic powers, and Bob's your uncle.

Interestingly enough, Healers get THE BEST spell progression in D&D. Unfortunately, they also get the worst spell selection in D&D, and they have to memorize their spells. This renders them one of the weakest classes in the game.

However, this be fixed by taking feats and PrC that expand your spell selection. When combined with the fact that they get an excellent animal companion at mid levels with which they can share spells, they can actually be quite playable at mid-hit levels.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-07, 12:53 PM
Which feqats would you recommend for Healers, Person_Man? I couldn't find those powers in Complete Psionic.:smallfrown:

Satyr
2008-10-08, 03:33 AM
The best fix I know is to create mundane characters as Gestalt characters, while spellcasters (with the exception of rangers, paladins etc.) are created regularly. It works quite well, but we had two problems with it: A) Should the Bard be treated as a spellcster for this r not (we decided against it, making Bards quite atttractive) and B) what to do with the Tome of Battle Character Classes (we counted them as mundane characters, which lead to the situation that most characters had at least some levels in one of the ToB classes).

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-08, 04:15 AM
That sounds like an interresting idea. How optimised were the spellcasters, though?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-08, 04:19 AM
Generally, I find the best fix until level 10(I don't GM, but I like to help them out), is to offer to help any player build their character. Casters require optimized play as well as builds, so I can't break them vicariously, but I can introduce the trapmonkey to the world of the Swift Hunter, the meatshield to ToB, and the divine caster to the world of Reached, Chained buffs. It evens out.:smallbiggrin:

Kami2awa
2008-10-08, 04:37 AM
There's a difference between powering-down casters and making them mind-bendingly frustrating to play.

I would agree, but 2e casters generally were still fun to play. Their major disadvantage was their vulnerability and 3.x e has made them slightly tougher. 2e required some strategy and cooperation on the part of the wizard; he would almost always need bodyguards, being more like a stationary artillery piece than an all-purpose war machine.

Another idea would be to give spellcasters a disadvantage as a trade-off for magic power, since in many fantasy worlds magic is dangerous for the user. For example, a caster might be vulnerable to a particular material (e.g. silver) or damage type (a mage with a lot of fire spells is vulnerable to cold damage). For more fun, you could say that if a spell fails for whatever reason, the caster gets some kind of backlash effect (the spell fires the wrong way, or produces a silly effect like a rain of frogs).

You could also simply adjust levels on the more powerful spells, since some spells are very overpowered for their level (e.g. Solid Fog).

Satyr
2008-10-08, 04:46 AM
That sounds like an interresting idea. How optimised were the spellcasters, though?

Neither too optimized nor too nerfed.
One spellcaster was a very normal druid without any 'mistakes' in the character development, the other three were a wizard with a focus on illusion spells who actively tried to avoid the more gamebreaking spells, an Elvish Archer Cleric and a Sorcerer who almost exclusively took dragon heritage feats. With the exception of the sorc, the spellcasters where still more powerful than the rest of the rest of the group, but most of them weren't too optimized either.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-08, 05:44 AM
Thanks for telling me. I'd avoid using things like Celerity and Polymorph, but I'd make use of battlefield control spells like Solif Fog, so I'm not sure if that would be too powerful in that sort of game.