[3.5] Threatening 5' and 10'

[Epinephrine]

What easy ways are there to threaten adjacent and reach as a small/medium character? I was looking for something like a spear haft feat, but the short shaft only allows you to switch as a swift action, and I'd like to threaten both ranges at once.

[RTGoodman]

I think people usually wield a normal reach weapon and either spiked armor/gauntlets or natural weapons or something like that.

Or you could use a spiked chain, which threatens at 5' and 10'.

[Eldariel]

EWP: Spiked Chain. Reach weapon + Improved Unarmed Strike (+Monk for damage)/Armor Spikes/Natural Weapon (preferably non-Claw; many DMs may not allow using Claws while wielding two-handed weapons). Short Haft is usually good enough though - however, since it requires Weapon Focus, it's less than optimal.

Basically, either a weapon that threatens both or a separate weapon for adjacent and reach. I prefer latter since it gives me more choice in weapons and costs less feats (Armor Spikes, for example).

EDIT: I wanna become a ninja too, but mommy says it's too dangerous.

[Zeful]

Anything that would allow you to wield a reach weapon one handed would allow you to wield another one handed weapon.

So like Monkey Grip and TWF with a longsword might work. Well you don't need to attack with both weapons so you don't need TWF.

[Eldariel]

Monkey Grip doesn't work that way. In fact, there's nothing in the game that allows you to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand by 3.5 rules. It simply allows you to wield a two-handed weapon of a larger category with less penalties.

Speaking of which, I gotta make my Spiked Chain TWF Unarmed Swordsage (with Monk-dip for Flurry) that TWFs with Spiked Chain and Unarmed Strikes and Power Attacks to his heart's content while threatening 10'.

EDIT: Woohoo, seems like I made it to the ninja college after all!

[The Glyphstone]

Anything that would allow you to wield a reach weapon one handed would allow you to wield another one handed weapon.

So like Monkey Grip and TWF with a longsword might work. Well you don't need to attack with both weapons so you don't need TWF.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/AwXomeMan/morbo.jpg
MONKEY GRIP DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

Monkey Grip only allow you to wield a Large creature's weapon when you are Medium, or Medium when you are small. It does not affect handedness in any way - you need Wield Oversized Weapon (Epic) to do that.

@Eldarial: In the back of Complete Warrior is that feat. It treats all weapons as one size smaller and one category lighter (two-handed, one-handed, light) for anyone who takes it. Ya ninja.

[Eldariel]

@Eldarial: In the back of Complete Warrior is that feat. It treats all weapons as one size smaller and one category lighter (two-handed, one-handed, light) for anyone who takes it. Ya ninja.

Epic feat called Wield Oversized Weapon it seems. No wonder I didn't know about it - takes a maniac to use weapons in Epic!

[Zeful]

Monkey Grip doesn't work that way. In fact, there's nothing in the game that allows you to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand by 3.5 rules.

Powerful build, you are treated as one size larger whenever it would be advantageous to you (roughly). A large creature can wield a medium two handed weapon as a one handed weapon. So unless I'm wrong about powerful build a medium character with powerful build can wield a longspear one handed.

[drengnikrafe]

I think if you have a natural attack (I read this in another forum), then you can have a longer distance weapon (I.E. a Ranseur, or whatever), and threaten both at once.

[Eldariel]

Powerful Build: "X can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty."

Doesn't seem to me like it says anything about being able to use two-handed weapons of any size as one-handed weapons. It worked differently in 3.0, so that might be what you're thinking about.

EDIT: Seems like I passed my first test in the ninja college!

[RTGoodman]

Powerful build, you are treated as one size larger whenever it would be advantageous to you (roughly). A large creature can wield a medium two handed weapon as a one handed weapon. So unless I'm wrong about powerful build a medium character with powerful build can wield a longspear one handed.

That's still not true, in 3.5 (though I think it was that way in 3.0). By RAW, you can't EVER wield a weapon made for a different size category than yourself to change the handedness. As far as I know, you can wield a Small Greatsword with a -2 penalty (I think - it could be -4), but it's still two-handed. "Handedness" never changes, as far as I know.

[The Glyphstone]

That's still not true, in 3.5 (though I think it was that way in 3.0). By RAW, you can't EVER wield a weapon made for a different size category than yourself to change the handedness. As far as I know, you can wield a Small Greatsword with a -2 penalty (I think - it could be -4), but it's still two-handed. "Handedness" never changes, as far as I know.


See also: Wield Oversized Weapon.:smallsmile::smallcool:

Epic is still RAW, crazy as it can get. Just go talk to that Cheesewrought Instabold over there.

[monty]

That's still not true, in 3.5 (though I think it was that way in 3.0). By RAW, you can't EVER wield a weapon made for a different size category than yourself to change the handedness. As far as I know, you can wield a Small Greatsword with a -2 penalty (I think - it could be -4), but it's still two-handed. "Handedness" never changes, as far as I know.

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm, under "Inappropriately Sized Weapons":


The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

[Eldariel]

This is true. Doesn't work with Powerful Build (because of the wording of the ability), but actually being Large (or wielding small Spiked Chain + whatever) would work.

[monty]

If you're Medium and humanoid, a simple Enlarge Person would do the trick nicely. Alternately, Inhuman Reach or a similar feat.

[Smeggedoff]

you could always move into warshaper, one of the levels in that gives you +5 foot reach while shaping and the class has deceptively easy prerequisites for what it is
(apart from the shapeshifting ofc)

[RTGoodman]

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm, under "Inappropriately Sized Weapons":

Huh, well then I concede defeat. I could have sworn that that particular section wasn't in the 3.5 PHB. Still, I think Spiked Chain or reach weapon + spiked gauntlets get my vote.

[Bayar]

Epic feat called Wield Oversized Weapon it seems. No wonder I didn't know about it - takes a maniac to use weapons in Epic!

There is Oversized TWF (not epic), it lets you wield a one-handed weapon in your off hand.


But Spiked chain is the best.

For max reach, go with whip, 15 reach, hit adjactent, great for duskblade's with inhuman reach and enlarge self. Especially if it is a Whirlwind whip :smallbiggrin:.

[Eldariel]

OTWF doesn't increase your wielding capabilities though, only reduces the penalty for having a One-Handed weapon in the offhand.

[Chronos]

For max reach, go with whip, 15 reach, hit adjactent, great for duskblade's with inhuman reach and enlarge self. Especially if it is a Whirlwind whipGreat for channeling spells into dozens of targets at once, but whips don't threaten, which takes away one of the bigger advantages of reach.

And if you're going to use a weapon of the wrong size, then you don't need Monkey Grip: Just wield a halfling-scale longspear. But I think there's a FAQ entry that says that when wielding a weapon with the wrong number of hands, you don't benefit from the reach. And even if you do, you're piling on penalties.

[bosssmiley]

What easy ways are there to threaten adjacent and reach as a small/medium character? I was looking for something like a spear haft feat, but the short shaft only allows you to switch as a swift action, and I'd like to threaten both ranges at once.

Armour spikes + a 10' reach polearm. You now threaten every space within 10'.

[Curmudgeon]

You really want to command the spaces around you at medium size? Get a horse, armor spikes, and a lance. You threaten at 5' and 10' distances around the 10' x 10' space of your mount. Since you can use the lance one-handed while mounted, you could throw in an off-hand whip to reach (but not threaten) at 15' as well.

[Chineselegolas]

Two feat combinations (Each requiring two feats)

The first combination is from 'Heroes of Horror' requires you be evil:
Willing Deformity
Deformity (Tall)

The second is from 'Lords of Madness' and merely requires you to be humanoid
Aberrant Blood
Inhuman Reach


Interestingly these add 5 foot of reach, so for cheese take both. Then a reach weapon to double that. Nice with a spiked chain and everyone within 30ft being in your reach... Whirlwind Attack anyone?
Or cleric/wizard and touch spells from 15ft away...

[Epinephrine]

Wow, lots of replies!

Thanks, I hadn't thought of spiked armour, that fits the bill perfectly.

[The Glyphstone]

Anyone ever tried using the Awl Pike from Dragon? It was a pole-arm type weapon that threatened at 10' and 15', but not 5ft. Didn't do a lot of damage, though.

[Person_Man]

Spiked Armor
Spiked buckler
Spiked gauntlets
Improved Unarmed Strike
Any natural weapon (claws, bite, tentacles, etc)
Spiked Chain
Gnomish Quickrazor (can draw and sheath as a free action)
Willing Deformity + Deformity (Tall)
Aberrant Blood + Inhuman Reach + Extended Reach (Savage Species: adds another 5 feet for those with "nonrigid body or a nonrigid attack form such as a tentacle, feeler, or pseudopod." Inhuman Reach specifically states that your arms become like snakes or tentacles).

[Tokiko Mima]

Reach is wierd, and the weapon's size has nothing to do with the reach you obtain. For example, if you took the major Titan Bloodline in order to wield a gargantuan two handed warhammer without penalty you'd still only have a 5' reach despite the fact that your weapon is at least 30' long.

[olelia]

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#reachWeapons

Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.


If the weapon size will only give +10 feet no matter what the size is, why is it then at huge when you have a natural 15 foot reach you'll gain a 30 foot reach according to the text? :smallconfused:.

[AstralFire]

Reach weapons double your reach. Double your fun.

That's the statement of the great mint of double mint gum.

[olelia]

That strangely tastes of Swiss.

[RikuKupo]

The Glyphstone: I laughed for like 3 minutes at the futurama joke. That was awesome.

Although it's a 3.0, there is a graft in fiend folio that increases your reach by 5 feet. It was before the crappy new rules, AND was one of the good cheap ones. That still counts right? FF never got updated.

[The Glyphstone]

The Glyphstone: I laughed for like 3 minutes at the futurama joke. That was awesome.

Although it's a 3.0, there is a graft in fiend folio that increases your reach by 5 feet. It was before the crappy new rules, AND was one of the good cheap ones. That still counts right? FF never got updated.

Thanks, but don't give me credit. I didn't start the meme, I'm just perpetuating it.

[Keld Denar]

Taking EWP Spiked Chain is, in my opinion, the most economical thing to do from a lockdown point of view. Sure, you can have a glaive and armor spikes, but for melee, the primary mode of delivering damage is Power Attack, and you can't PA with armor spikes. They only get 1x str and have a small die, so while you do threaten with spikes, the damage you do might not even be there. Plus, you have to invest some money into improving your armor spikes, or you won't be able to penetrate DR with the minor damage you do. Its hard to control someone with Standstill when the damage you do makes for tiny saves. With a spiked chain, you only need 1 weapon, and you get 1.5str AND 2x PA with it. Plus, if you take a level of Exotic Weapon Master from CWarrior, you get Flurry of Strikes, which gives you an extra attack with all the fun PA and other bonuses you get with it.

So, while glaive + armor spikes saves you a feat, spending that feat on EWP Spiked Chain saves you more cash, and gives you a more powerful versitile weapon.

[Thrawn183]

The problem is people suggesting a spiked chain AND unarmed strikes or whatever. Now that's a cubicle in the department of redundency department.

We seriously need a sticky just about powerful build and monkey grip.

[Eldariel]

Spiked Chain + Unarmed Strikes makes for an awesome TWF-combo - both have Power Attack-capability, you've got very decent damage in both weapons and you still threaten at reach too. The only real drawback is the annoying -2 to attacks, but a quick Bloodclaw Master-dip solves that. I suppose the bigger problem is that most of your levels are determined since they need to advance your unarmed strikes and you'll burn a ton of feats on EWP: Spiked Chain, Superior Unarmed Strike, TWF, ITWF, GTWF and PA.

Consolidating TWF into one feat solves a part of that, and using Dragon-contents gets you free EWP by taking a level of Exoticist Fighter, but that's still 3 nearly-must feats and a bunch of levels (unless you go for Unarmed Strike off purely SUS, but that's just hugely feat intensive as you need IUS too, and you'll have to make do with relatively poor damage totals).

The final problem with the build is that since it has reach, it can't Pounce fully on a Charge. Some ToB-maneuvers like Bounding Assault, or just Shadow Pouncing, solve that though.


As a bonus to all this, not only do you get full 4+3 attack routine, you can pick up Flurry of Blows from Exotic Weapon Master for extra with Chain, Monk's Greater Flurry for two extra Unarmeds and Snap Kick for an extra Unarmed. So in reality, you'll have 5+6 routine, and 6+6 routine with Haste. Then get Shadow Pounce and use it three times in a turn (Swift, Move and Standard). 36 attacks, one with double PA and one with full, and one with 1½ Str and one with full. And that's without trying (like getting additional limbs or anything) - that's just a Really Good Human™. It's even all extraordinary if you use ToB Shadow-maneuvers and some Ex source of Haste-attack!

EDIT: Oh yeah, and practically all your attacks qualify for practically all combat maneuvers including Trip, Disarm and Sunder. Only Grab is limited to Unarmeds. And you can use Dex with both weapons for To Hit and Damage! Bloodclaw Master doesn't work due to Spiked Chain not being a Tiger Claw weapon though :( Oh well, good enough without it! We'll just have to pump up To Hit.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Spiked Chain + Unarmed Strikes makes for an awesome TWF-combo - both have Power Attack-capability, you've got very decent damage in both weapons and you still threaten at reach too. The only real drawback is the annoying -2 to attacks, but a quick Bloodclaw Master-dip solves that. I suppose the bigger problem is that most of your levels are determined since they need to advance your unarmed strikes and you'll burn a ton of feats on EWP: Spiked Chain, Superior Unarmed Strike, TWF, ITWF, GTWF and PA.

Consolidating TWF into one feat solves a part of that, and using Dragon-contents gets you free EWP by taking a level of Exoticist Fighter, but that's still 3 nearly-must feats and a bunch of levels (unless you go for Unarmed Strike off purely SUS, but that's just hugely feat intensive as you need IUS too, and you'll have to make do with relatively poor damage totals).

The final problem with the build is that since it has reach, it can't Pounce fully on a Charge. Some ToB-maneuvers like Bounding Assault, or just Shadow Pouncing, solve that though.The one use for Master of Masks that I know is a one level dip for Gladiator mask, which has proficiency in all Exotic Weapons, as well as other minor benefits.

[Eldariel]

The one use for Master of Masks that I know is a one level dip for Gladiator mask, which has proficiency in all Exotic Weapons, as well as other minor benefits.

Annoyingly enough though, that's a Su-ability :( I kinda like to have my Proficiencies from Ex-sources, especially when talking about a guy who's probably teleporting around in an Anti-Magic Field pwning things.

[snoopy13a]

I would assume that if the character wanted to attack using spiked gauntlets or armor spikes that they'd have to drop the two handed reach weapon first (free action).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I would assume that if the character wanted to attack using spiked gauntlets or armor spikes that they'd have to drop the two handed reach weapon first (free action).For Gauntlets, yes, but Unarmed Strikes can be done with any part of your body(kicks), and Armor Spikes are literally slamming your body into theirs, neither of which requires dropping the Longspear.

[Curmudgeon]

Taking EWP Spiked Chain is, in my opinion, the most economical thing to do from a lockdown point of view. Sure, you can have a glaive and armor spikes, but for melee, the primary mode of delivering damage is Power Attack It's not the only way, though. Power Attack + a two-handed weapon gives a reliable +2 points of damage/level, but by greatly reducing your likelihood to hit. You have to pick a PA number for all attacks at the beginning of your turn, realizing that you're probably guaranteeing misses with later attacks.

Consider an alternative: sneak attack as the primary means of delivering melee damage, used with unarmed strike plus a longspear. Mostly that just requires planning: either a spell like Greater Invisibility, or coordination (a flanking buddy) to make sneak attack reliable. The base SA average damage is +1.75 points/level, but one feat (Craven) increases that to +2.75. You maintain 3/4 of the BAB of warrior-type classes so your chances of hitting and doing damage are consistently better than with full BAB minus Power Attack reduction. Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerun) cost only 1,310 gp and grant you Improved Unarmed Strike. (They can also be enhanced as weapons, but Greater Magic Fang + Permanency is more cost-effective.) Rogues (like most everybody) are proficient with the longspear, which takes care of reach. One extra feat (Snap Kick) then gives you at least one bonus attack every round of melee.

Fighters get more feats, so their cost of 2 feats (Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) + Power Attack) is lower than the Rogues' cost for 2 feats (Craven + Snap Kick). The Rogue solution gets a low cost for permanent +5 enhancement on their unarmed strikes, but longspear enhancements cost the same for them as the Fighter's spiked chain enhancements; again, the advantage is to the Fighter. Both solutions require players to use their brains during combat (Power Attack calculations for the Fighter; tactical planning to enable sneak attack for the Rogue). Snap Kick, though, gives an advantage to the solution that uses unarmed strikes. Finally, because Power Attack always reduces the chances to hit, the general advantage is to the Rogue.

The longspear isn't a glamorous weapon, but it provides the same 10' reach as the spiked chain, with equivalent damage (1d8 vs. 2d4). And because it generally doesn't require a feat for proficiency it's an attractive solution to the reach problem. That you have to combine it with something else for 5' reach, and in doing so you're largely making Power Attack ineffective, isn't a problem -- just an intriguing challenge.

[monty]

It's not the only way, though. Power Attack + a two-handed weapon gives a reliable +2 points of damage/level, but by greatly reducing your likelihood to hit. You have to pick a PA number for all attacks at the beginning of your turn, realizing that you're probably guaranteeing misses with later attacks.

Alternately, if you are willing to sacrifice your AC, take Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper. The latter lets you add your PA penalty to AC as long as it's at least -5, so you can forgo armor entirely, find some other means of not getting hit (like invisibility), and Power Attack to your heart's content.