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Crow
2008-10-07, 01:47 AM
So here's the bad guy (pulled from ENworld):

Jormungandr, the Midgard Serpent
Colossal Dragon (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 66d12+1,782 (2,211 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares), swim 60 ft
Armor Class: 90 (-8 size, +75 natural, +13 deflection), touch 15, flat-footed 90
Base Attack/Grapple: +66/+114
Attack: Bite +92 melee (8d6+32/19-20 plus poison) or slam +91 melee (4d8+32)
Full Attack: Bite +92 melee (8d6+32/19-20 plus poison) and slam +86 melee (4d8+16)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/30 ft (head only); 60 ft reach with slam
Special Attacks: Constrict 4d8+32, death throes, frightful presence, improved grab, poison
Special Qualities: Amphibious, blindsense 60 ft, cataclysmic motion, damage reduction 25/epic, darkvision 120 ft., fast healing 200, immunities, keen senses, regeneration 200, resistance to acid 20, electricity 20, fire 20, and sonic 20, spell resistance 66
Saves: Fort +62 Ref +37 Will +44
Abilities: Str 75, Dex 10, Con 65, Int 27, Wis 29, Cha 36
Skills: Balance +2, Bluff +82, Diplomacy +17, Gather Information +15, Intimidate +84, Knowledge (geography) +77, Knowledge (history) +77, Knowledge (local) +77, Knowledge (nature) +79, Knowledge (religion) +77, Listen +78, Search +77, Sense Motive +78, Spot +78, Survival +78 (+80 following tracks, +80 avoiding hazards, +80 aboveground), Swim +109, Tumble +69
Feats: Ability Focus (poison), Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Snatch, Track, Weapon Focus (bite)
Epic Feats: Epic Prowess, Epic Sunder, Devastating Critical (bite), Legendary Tracker, Overwhelming Critical (bite), Superior Initiative

Environment: Any land and aquatic
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 45
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: ---

This serpent is so massively immense that it seems to go on for miles. Its thick body lies in huge coils as it stretches out across the expansive wilderness. Its massive serpentine head is somewhat draconic, though it dwarfs the entire bodies of even the largest of mortal great wyrms.

Jormungandr is the offspring of the mischievous god Loki and the giantess Angurboda, along with Hel and Fenris. He is also called the Midgard Serpent, or the World Serpent.

When Odin saw the monstrous progeny, he threw the snake into the sea when he was still young to keep him from causing trouble. Unfortunately, Jormungandr’s isolation allowed him to grow unchecked, until he eventually was long enough to circle the entire earth and bite his own tail.

Thor is the mortal enemy of the Midgard Serpent and has tried unsuccessfully to slay him many times. According to a prophecy by the Norns, Thor will not succeed in his task until the time of Ragnarok – although Jormungandr’s poison would slay Thor in the battle as well.

Jormungandr is easily tens of thousands of miles long, and his weight is incalculable to any but a god.

Jormungandr speaks Abyssal, Aquan, Common, Draconic, Giant, Undercommon, and likely a handful of other languages that he has learned over his long life.

COMBAT
Jormungandr prefers to be left alone. He hunts when he is hungry, but ignores most combatants, as most other beings cannot truly harm him. He only defends himself against more powerful opponents like Thor. By coiling up his mass, Jormungandr can make slam attacks against any creature within 60 feet of his body, at any point, and can grapple more than one target at a time.

Jormungandr rarely moves his entire body, but when he feels the need to his movements cause destruction on a grand scale. Jormungandr’s impossible length allows his to lift his head to any height, and thus never needs to make a Climb or Jump check to reach higher or lower altitudes. He can move over hills, crevasses, ravines, and other natural features in a similar manner, and since it is impossible for him to fall, he never suffers falling damage.

Jormungandr’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

An opponent can attack Jormungandr’s head with a sunder attempt as if it was a weapon. Jormungandr’s head has 400 hit points. If Jormungandr’s head is dealt enough lethal damage to destroy it in a single attack, he dies.

Constrict (Ex): Jormungandr deals automatic slam damage with a successful grapple check.

Death Throes (Ex): If Jormungandr dies from having his head sundered, his venom will seep out from his rapidly from his body, filling a 50-foot radius area around his head. All creatures in this area are subject to Jormungandr’s poison.

Frightful Presence (Ex): Jormungandr can unsettle foes with his mere presence. This ability takes effect automatically whenever Jormungandr attacks. Creatures within 360 feet of Jormungandr are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than him.

A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC 56 Will save remains immune to Jormungandr’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures become shaken for 4d6 rounds.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Jormungandr must hit with his slam attack. He can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If he wins the grapple check, he establishes a hold and can constrict.

Poison (Ex): Contact or injury, Fortitude DC 72, initial and secondary damage 3d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Jormungandr’s poison is so deadly that all living creatures, even deities and creatures with an immunity to poison, must succeed on the saving throw or take the listed damage. Magical protections against poison of non-epic status are also ineffective against Jormungandr’s poison.

Amphibious (Ex): Although Jormungandr is aquatic, he can survive indefinitely on land.

Blindsense (Ex): Jormungandr can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet from his body. Opponents he can’t actually see still have total concealment against Jormungandr.

Cataclysmic Motion (Ex): Jormungandr can move from one place on surface of the planet to any other as a full-round action. To accomplish this, he steers his head in the proper direction, and simply plows through or over anything in his path, moving at incredible speed to reposition himself. His head will end in whatever area on the world’s surface he desires. He cannot circle the world more than once this way in a single round.

Due to Jormungandr’s incredible size, this movement leaves natural disasters in his wake, out to a mile away from his body. In cold land environments, his movements cause avalanches (see Mountain Terrain in the DMG). In warm or temperate lands, his movements create an earthquake (as the spell). When moving through aquatic environments, he creates massive waves (treat as the raise water function of the control water spell, with an area using a caster level equal to Jormungandr's Hit Dice). Jormungandr does not take any action to cause these effects, nor can he prevent them from happening.

Immunities (Ex): Jormungandr is immune to ability damage, ability drain, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, energy drain, imprisonment, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, polymorph, and sleep effects.

Keen Senses (Ex): Jormungandr sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. He also has darkvision out to 120 feet.

Regeneration (Ex): Good bludgeoning weapons deal normal damage to Jormungandr.
If any part of Jormungandr is severed from the rest of his body, it reattaches instantly if not completely separated from the body.

Skills: Jormungandr has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. He can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. He can use the run action while swimming, provided he swims in a straight line.

Originally found in first edition Deities and Demigods (1980, James M. Ward and Robert J. Kuntz).

So at ECL 45, using the SRD, with no divine ranks, can a melee character take this thing down? The best way would probably be to get off the sunder attack against it's head (400hp in a single hit), but I have no idea how to pull that kind of damage in one hit in D&D aside from Leap Attack or Hulking Hurler (which isn't in the SRD). Of course, I've never played at ECL 45 either.

Maybe Spirited Charge with a Lance atop a flying mount? Outside of Spirited Charge, is it possible?

Ascension
2008-10-07, 01:49 AM
Why the SRD-only requirement? Is this question for an actual game, perhaps?

Crow
2008-10-07, 01:50 AM
One-shot challenge before the real game actually. :smalltongue: That's why it's melee only, too.

Adumbration
2008-10-07, 01:51 AM
Can it be a caster? I mean, you specified melee, but can it be a sort of gish?

Crow
2008-10-07, 01:55 AM
Can it be a caster? I mean, you specified melee, but can it be a sort of gish?

edit: Scratch that, just talked to the DM and he says melee only. Anything that gives you access to epic spellcasting is out.

Eldariel
2008-10-07, 01:58 AM
What level of cheese is allowed (Candle of Invocation, summoning creatures for Wishes, Shapechange)? Anyways, caster-based boosting is probably the way to start. If you really aren't allowed to use spells to kill it, some kind of super charge may be prudent. Divine Power for BAB 45 (pre-epic casting has to be allowed, no?) to Power Attack for 90 and then start applying the multipliers. Too bad it's core only so those are rather sparse. Still, you get x3 by doing a cavalry charge with a Lance. I suppose a colossal weapon and and some bonuses there-of could help. I think that could end up in 1000 or so with enough work - still not enough to oneshot that thing.

Hmm, how about Psionics? Deep Impact would definitely help with hitting.

Adumbration
2008-10-07, 02:03 AM
What level of cheese is allowed (Candle of Invocation, summoning creatures for Wishes, Shapechange)? Anyways, caster-based boosting is probably the way to start. If you really aren't allowed to use spells to kill it, some kind of super charge may be prudent. Divine Power for BAB 45 (pre-epic casting has to be allowed, no?) to Power Attack for 90 and then start applying the multipliers. Too bad it's core only so those are rather sparse. Still, you get x3 by doing a cavalry charge with a Lance. I suppose a colossal weapon and and some bonuses there-of could help. I think that could end up in 1000 or so with enough work - still not enough to oneshot that thing.

Hmm, how about Psionics? Deep Impact would definitely help with hitting.

That is, however, enough to kill the head.

Prometheus
2008-10-07, 02:04 AM
I kind of feel like any attempt to kill with anything but a hammer is destined to fail. Of course, I guess going that route can't kill the serpent without also dying from it's poison. Reference Here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr#The_final_battle)

SydneyLosstarot
2008-10-07, 02:09 AM
i dunno, is there an SRD-only way to deal enough DEX damage to incapacitate it?

Eldariel
2008-10-07, 02:15 AM
Bleh, 400 damage to the head should be easy by level 20. Then it's just a matter of avoiding the attacks of opportunity. If non-epic spellcasting is allowed, it's childs' play. Without magic, thing are much too bothersome. Anyways, the important questions are if Psionics are allowed (they are SRD after all) and if non-epic spells are ok?

Crow
2008-10-07, 02:27 AM
According to the DM, the intention is to take it down without resorting to magic. If more than one of us takes it down, the one who uses the fewest spells, and the least UMD is the winner. Same goes for Psionics, or items that give spell usage (Candles of Invocation). It's in, but the guy who doesn't use any will win out over the guy who does.

I am just wondering if taking it down with a straight-classed Fighter, Barb, or Ranger or something is even possible. I think I could get it down with the right spells, but that isn't really much of an accomplishment. Child's play as someone else said.

I'm so new to Epic though that I can't see how to hit it's AC without massive buffing.


I kind of feel like any attempt to kill with anything but a hammer is destined to fail. Of course, I guess going that route can't kill the serpent without also dying from it's poison. Reference Here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr#The_final_battle)


Death Throes (Ex): If Jormungandr dies from having his head sundered, his venom will seep out from his rapidly from his body, filling a 50-foot radius area around his head. All creatures in this area are subject to Jormungandr’s poison.



Poison (Ex): Contact or injury, Fortitude DC 72, initial and secondary damage 3d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Eldariel
2008-10-07, 02:39 AM
The thing is, SRD only Fighter doesn't gain much beyond Epic. Doesn't gain much before Epic either. Same goes for all other combatant types. Frustrating. Oh well, still, Power Attack + Spirited Charge is a good starting point. Stacking class-based plusses like Str-bonuses, Favored Enemy, Smite and such could also work on top of it. Really, the most effective way would probably be to play a non-standard race with a huge Str-bonus (like Were-Direbear) Then pick up a Lance and pierce its face.

Hmm, we need 400 total in one attack. That means we need 143 for Spirited Charge to multiply it enough to deal lethal. With Str 70ish (+30) from template/bonus/other stack, it still leaves 57 or something to gain from other sources. Barbarian is probably the closest, although a Dragon-hunting Ranger isn't that bad either (level 45 has FE bonus at +17 or something). Fighter is just sad. Sneak Attack isn't multiplied and again, since it needs to be one attack...

The limitations are just really tough - epic melee characters already suck, and SRD only their suckitude knows no bounds.

EDIT: Smite it! Paladin-level to damage adds 45 - helps boundlessly!

Crow
2008-10-07, 02:46 AM
Would it be worthwhile to get some Paladin levels for smite evil?

edit ninja'd!

Eldariel
2008-10-07, 02:48 AM
Would it be worthwhile to get some Paladin levels for smite evil?

45 levels of Paladin. Take Greater Smiting for every one of your Epic Paladin feats. By quick count, on 45 you've got 15 (8 base and 7 class bonus) of them. This gives you 15*45, or 675 on successful Smite. That isn't amazing, but it's enough.

EDIT: Now you just gotta hit the thing, which seems nearly impossible without any magic (including magic items, inherent bonuses and so on) or Wishes. I don't recall Ex means to make a Touch Attack in SRD. Using a single psionic feat though in "Deep Impact" (you need Psionic Focus for it so be a Psionic race or pick Wild Talent - it also requires Psionic Weapon, but you don't need to use that), you could do it though on anything but a natural 1 using completely non-magical equipment and no spells.

Sholos
2008-10-07, 03:37 AM
Was I the only person who saw the Touch AC of 15, the Dex of 10, and immediately thought of Shivering Touch (unless I'm completely wrong in my thinking of how it works). It's only one spell. Very hard to use less magic than that.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-07, 04:24 AM
Was I the only person who saw the Touch AC of 15, the Dex of 10, and immediately thought of Shivering Touch (unless I'm completely wrong in my thinking of how it works). It's only one spell. Very hard to use less magic than that.

I noticed that, then went straight to its special qualities and then read over its immunities. Being completely immune to ability damage of any kind, that won't work at all. Plus this is core only, Shivering Touch is from Frostburn, and the goal is to defeat it using zero spells.


I think a Cleric 45 can do it without casting spells, and without taking the feat for epic spellcasting. Start with the Strength and Destruction domains, with Bonus Domain twice for the Protection and Luck domains (having switched deities if necessary). You get nine epic feats by then, so Great Smiting x7 for +360 damage from your Destruction domain's Smite attack. Str is 16 starting out, probably -1 for age, with +45 from the Strength domain makes it 60 (+25), +4 to hit for Smite from the Destruction domain with a +28 BAB, and let's assume you get Wild Talent, Psionic Weapon, and Deep Impact. You can't miss its touch AC, get a +6 Holy Heavy Mace and attack two-handed and your minimum damage will be over 400. Activate your Protection domain power to get +45 to your Fort save and you'll automatically save vs its poison. You could just walk right up and hit it, as it would ignore you until you proved to be a serious threat, which would then be too late. The Luck domain is just in case you roll a 1 on the attack or on a saving throw, assuming you don't use the 1-doesn't-fail epic rule. It doesn't matter if you're shaken the whole time from its frightful presence, anyone would be nervous in that situation.

AslanCross
2008-10-07, 04:26 AM
Was I the only person who saw the Touch AC of 15, the Dex of 10, and immediately thought of Shivering Touch (unless I'm completely wrong in my thinking of how it works). It's only one spell. Very hard to use less magic than that.

Shivering Touch isn't SRD, though.

Anyway, if it's SRD-only, I'd probably use one of the giant races (likely Fire Giant since that's the strongest Giant that is PC-able) and the appropriate number of Barbarian or Paladin levels. Since Fire Giant is ECL 19, 26 levels of Barbarian would work well.
That would give enough STR behind each swing. Heck, maybe even a Titan would do. A Gargantuan weapon would definitely be worth using.

Edit: Ninja'd! Also realized Titans aren't PC-able.

Eldariel
2008-10-07, 10:53 AM
Was I the only person who saw the Touch AC of 15, the Dex of 10, and immediately thought of Shivering Touch (unless I'm completely wrong in my thinking of how it works). It's only one spell. Very hard to use less magic than that.

It's immune to ability damage (and drain and most other forms of non-damaging attacks like most things in the epic).


But yea, one magical/psionic source tends to be what you need:
-Limited Wish (next attack hits)
-Deep Impact
or any number of others. Other than that, completely mundane equipment and Smite will do.

Crow
2008-10-07, 11:39 AM
It's probably going to have to be limited wish, because deep impact isn't going to help on the opposed attack roll on the sunder attempt. Smite definitely looks like the way to go.

I don't see any other way to get the attack bonus high enough.

Chronos
2008-10-07, 11:53 AM
A lance won't work. To decapitate it, you need to do enough lethal damage to its head, and its regeneration ability says that it only takes lethal damage from good-aligned bludgeoning. So, yeah, you do actually want to use a hammer.

You can save some money on your weapon by making it +4 (or higher) and dragonbane, for a nonepic weapon that'll count as epic for bypassing its damage reduction.

We also need to avoid an attack of opportunity. It doesn't have Combat Reflexes, so if we can get it to waste its attack on something else, we have that covered, but on the other hand, with 27 Int, it's going to be difficult to trick. Alternately, we could get a whole bunch of miss chances (Invisibility, etc.), and hope for the best.

For the Death Throes, we can't really protect against the poison, but we can just have a whole bunch of con. Anything over 21 Con will give better than 50-50 chance of surviving it. Alternately, just get a 19 Con and splurge for a few Lesser Restorations to cast between the initial and secondary damage, and you're sure to survive it.

Eldariel
2008-10-07, 12:12 PM
Thanks to Smite, that's trivial. A sacred hammer (non-magical, but is treated as a good weapon - BoED) to Smite Evil with does it. Limited Wish "My next Sunder-attempt succeeds" > Smite its FACE with a huge Hammer.

Tokiko Mima
2008-10-07, 12:48 PM
A warlock could do the 2k damage needed in a single round easily pre-epic, but you'd need access to books not in the SRD especially since Warlock is not in the SRD.

You could wait until it was sleeping, and teleport it into deep space but that's not a melee solution is it?

I'd say take a succubus, give it the ghost template and 28 cleric levels.

Triaxx
2008-10-07, 06:28 PM
Rogue, high dex, finessable hammer. Combine with Power attack, and epic sneak attack. Should be able to deal enough damage to sunder his head in a single go.

Crow
2008-10-07, 06:48 PM
Rogue, high dex, finessable hammer. Combine with Power attack, and epic sneak attack. Should be able to deal enough damage to sunder his head in a single go.

I don't think he'll be able to do enough damage in one strike. Does sneak attack count on a sunder attempt?

AstralFire
2008-10-07, 06:48 PM
I don't think he'll be able to do enough damage in one strike. Does sneak attack count on a sunder attempt?

The only usual restriction against it is the fact that you usually sunder objects, I think.

Crow
2008-10-07, 06:53 PM
The only usual restriction against it is the fact that you usually sunder objects, I think.

Good point. The rogue should be able to win initiative, so the big obstacle is getting that hit. Which brings us back to limited wish. Luckily, the rogue can UMD it himself.

I don't have my books with me to look up epic sneak attack, so I'll have to take your words that it can supply the needed 400 damage.

Eldariel
2008-10-07, 06:58 PM
Eh, Paladin can just as easily UMD Limited Wish himself since we're talking about level 45 which gives you crossclass max of 24, which alone is almost enough (and Paladins are Cha-based and you get synergies from Spellcraft and Decipher Script), easily reaching the prerequisite 33.

tonberrian
2008-10-07, 08:11 PM
This is where I'm at, with no equipment whatsoever.

Human Cleric 34/ Paladin 1/ Divine Emissary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/divineEmissary.htm) 9/ Legendary Dreadnought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/legendaryDreadnought.htm) 1

See if you can convince your DM to allow a Deity with Strength and Destruction Domains with favored weapon: unarmed strike. Call him Chuck. Point out that St. Cuthbert already has those domains, and the favored weapon is purely aesthetic for this build. If this doesn't work, then just take St. Cuthbert as your deity, with the two listed domains.

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (Deity's Favored Weapon), Weapon Focus (Deity's Favored Weapon), Improved Sunder, Reckless Offense

Epic Feats: Great Smiting x 9, Holy Strike, Epic Weapon Focus (Deity's Favored Weapon)

Attack bonus total is:
+15 Base
+8 Epic
+20 Sacred (Divine Hand)
+20 (Unstoppable)
+17 (Strength Domain)
+4 (Smite)
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 Epic Weapon Focus
+2 Reckless Offense
+4 Improved Sunder

For a total of +93 on the sunder attempt without any spells. Sadly, if you're using an unarmed strike, you lose four points, for a total of +89. You need to beat +108, so even if you roll a natural 20 and the serpent rolls a 1, you tie, and thus not hit. However, Since Divine Emissary stacks with Cleric for smite damage, you would deal at least 430 damage with a smite, which would deal over 400 damage to the head, even accounting for DR.

Thematically, you're backhanding the Midgard Serpent and caving it's skull in. :smallcool:

Crow
2008-10-07, 09:05 PM
Impressive. You forgot your +2 to hit from Divine Inspiration :smallsmile:

Zeta Kai
2008-10-07, 10:11 PM
The only way that I can see to take this thing down with the restrictions that are in place is for the DM to follow the Death by Massive Damage rule. If strictly enforced, this rule allows for many melee builds to be more functional at high levels. Of course, it also leads to higher death tolls for PC's, but at high levels, death is cheap.

Lemur
2008-10-08, 12:57 AM
Using a lance doesn't seem so bad to me. I don't see Diehard or any tenacity abilities on him, which means that if you can incapacitate him with enough damage with a single attack, you're free to bash him in subsequent rounds.

I count a level 45 paladin as having 17, not 15 epic feats available for Great Smiting. That's 45x17 plus 90 for full power attack, which makes 855 damage. If you can get around 20 more damage from strength, magic weapon bonuses, etc, you get 875 times 3, which is 2625 damage. With Deep Impact, you should only have a 5% chance of missing, so you should have enough damage to drop him.

It's cutting it kind of close, but he'll still be in negative hit points the next round after he recovers 400 hp. This gives you the chance to pull out a properly enchanted hammer in the next round and coup de grace him with another smite. It's not exactly an instant kill, but it doesn't need spells and it avoids his death throes.