PDA

View Full Version : No. Oh, no. Nooooooo!



Adumbration
2008-10-07, 11:22 AM
Player's Handbook II, page 50. Monk character themes. All I can ask? Why? Why would anyone do that? What was the author thinking?! Take a good look at the "Stylist" fighters. And don't forget to look at how monks who fight with staffs refer to it as their "dragon pole" or "flowing water staff."

Tell me the whole thing is a joke. Please. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, try and imagine saying all those things listed there in a gaming table. "Dragon Claw!" signature attack my ***... I want to bash my head against the table and laugh while at it.

LibraryOgre
2008-10-07, 11:47 AM
Rice Paper Walk

Footpaddin'

It's a joke that began in the PH.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-07, 12:48 PM
I wondered whether the whole book was a joke; as well as the writer's tendancy to class Wis as more important to Favoured Souls then Cha, they refered to nobles paying low-level Wizards to cast Disguise Self on them for parties, and a lot of the quick-character creation "advice" was far from optimal.

TakeV
2008-10-07, 02:50 PM
Far from optimal, yes.
But fun as hell.

Ascension
2008-10-07, 03:08 PM
I don't know, I can think of practical applications for renaming class features.

For example, it's a lot easier to convince your DM to let you play a high-Int barbarian in a d20 Modern game if you tell him that you're trying to build your character around NERD RAEG!

And if all your bard's Perform ranks are in Dance or Oratory or something it's just plain silly to talk about his/her bardic "music."

And your "oddly lucky" material-eschewing sorcerer who doesn't realize he's capable of casting spells certainly wouldn't refer to any of his "lucky breaks" as magic.

I'm only being halfway facetious.

Magnor Criol
2008-10-07, 08:03 PM
...they refered to nobles paying low-level Wizards to cast Disguise Self on them for parties
Why is this so strange? They're nobles. They like to spend lonts of money on lavish, impractical things. WHat better way to ensure an amazing costume for a party than magic like Disguise Self?



and a lot of the quick-character creation "advice" was far from optimal.
Not everyone likes to play "optimal" characters. What's fun is fun. Now, whether the ones they offered are actually fun...well, that's another story. Not all of them are.

monty
2008-10-07, 08:05 PM
Why is this so strange? They're nobles. They like to spend lonts of money on lavish, impractical things. WHat better way to ensure an amazing costume for a party than magic like Disguise Self?

Disguise Self. Self. This exact thing was made fun of in one of the OotS comics.

JaxGaret
2008-10-07, 08:08 PM
Disguise Self. Self. This exact thing was made fun of in one of the OotS comics.

Beat me to it, darn you.

MeklorIlavator
2008-10-07, 08:09 PM
Why is this so strange? They're nobles. They like to spend lonts of money on lavish, impractical things. WHat better way to ensure an amazing costume for a party than magic like Disguise Self?

Because the duration is 10 min/level. Don't know about you, but most parties tend to last more than 10-40 minutes.
Wow, completely missed the range of the spell.


Not everyone likes to play "optimal" characters. What's fun is fun. Now, whether the ones they offered are actually fun...well, that's another story. Not all of them are.
The thing is, they present them as if they're optimal, so they're deliberately lying to you, like how even as late as the Complete Mage they seem to be saying "Direct Damage is the best thing for your wizard to do".

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-07, 08:12 PM
The thing is, they present them as if they're optimal, so they're deliberately lying to you, like how even as late as the Complete Mage they seem to be saying "Direct Damage is the best thing for your wizard to do".Like how they say the best schools for an Illusionist to drop are Conjuration and Transmutation? Or that Weapon Focus is useful in almost every book?

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-08, 08:37 AM
I suppose dropping Conjuration and Transmutation makes sense froma fluff perspective if you're an Illusionist, but as you said, it's a terrible choice as far as optimisation goes. I'd assume that there was normally a link between characters being reasonably effective and being fun to play as in most cases. Using illusion spells for parties isn't odd, but the fact that WotC apparently don't know how one of their most basic spells works is rather concerning.

EDIT: It was the DMG 2 which made the Disguise Self comment (sotty about the mix-up).

Magnor Criol
2008-10-08, 02:26 PM
Disguise Self. Self.

Oy. Completely missed the key word, right in the title. Facepalm.

And I didn't realize they were trying to present the builds as optimized. I don't own a copy of PH2 myself, just look at a friend's when he's around, and so I guess I've forgotten some of the presentation of the various builds. I thought they were just sort of 'fast-and-dirty' guidelines for building characters higher than 1st rather quickly.

toddex
2008-10-08, 04:49 PM
Player's Handbook II, page 50. Monk character themes. All I can ask? Why? Why would anyone do that? What was the author thinking?! Take a good look at the "Stylist" fighters. And don't forget to look at how monks who fight with staffs refer to it as their "dragon pole" or "flowing water staff."

Tell me the whole thing is a joke. Please. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, try and imagine saying all those things listed there in a gaming table. "Dragon Claw!" signature attack my ***... I want to bash my head against the table and laugh while at it.

I just thought id let you know Wong fei hung a real man and folk hero of china was known for calling out his moves as or before he would do them.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-09, 01:55 AM
Looking back over the builds, I think they are supposed to be optimised. I suppose the Weapon Focus use for the Fighter builds makes sense due to them also using feats which grant large bonuses when using certain weapon types, but it doesn't really work for other classes. To a degree, the idea of having just 1 recommended spell list for Wizards is ill advised due to how versatile they are, but I can't believe they didn't mention Slow or Stinking Cloud for level 3 spells (I'd assume thay would be used more often in a normal game then Water Breathing).

averagejoe
2008-10-09, 02:00 AM
Looking back over the builds, I think they are supposed to be optimised. I suppose the Weapon Focus use for the Fighter builds makes sense due to them also using feats which grant large bonuses when using certain weapon types, but it doesn't really work for other classes. To a degree, the idea of having just 1 recommended spell list for Wizards is ill advised due to how versatile they are, but I can't believe they didn't mention Slow or Stinking Cloud for level 3 spells (I'd assume thay would be used more often in a normal game then Water Breathing).

But without Water Breathing how can I use my Helm of Being Filled With Water?

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-09, 02:06 AM
I'm guessing that isn't a real item, right? If it is, you may want to try playing as a Lizardfolk due to how long they can hold their breath. Alternatively, you could ask the Cleric if s/he can store that spell (I tend to think that it's wise for the spellcasters to plan their spell lists together, especially since Clerics don't have to pay for any of their spells).

averagejoe
2008-10-09, 02:08 AM
I'm guessing that isn't a real item, right? If it is, you may want to try playing as a Lizardfolk due to how long they can hold their breath. Alternatively, you could ask the Cleric if s/he can store that spell (I tend to think that it's wise for the spellcasters to plan their spell lists together, especially since Clerics don't have to pay for any of their spells).

No, that was a joke, I wasn't actually asking for optimization advice. :smalltongue:

I wonder if one could get any use out of a Helm of Being Filled With Water, though...

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-09, 02:12 AM
I assumed it was a joke (I just thought I'd give advice in case it was a real item for some reason). Actually, that would be very useful if you were playing as a race which breaths water.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-09, 02:12 AM
I wonder if one could get any use out of a Helm of Being Filled With Water, though...if you are in a situation where you can't breathe(poison gas, vacuum), and happen to have Water Breathing memorized...

Waspinator
2008-10-09, 03:20 AM
The poison gas may be water soluble.

Baidas Kebante
2008-10-09, 03:43 AM
I just thought id let you know Wong fei hung a real man and folk hero of china was known for calling out his moves as or before he would do them.

I just thought I'd let you know that while Wong Fei Hung is indeed a real man and folk hero of China, calling out moves was a movie and book trope so that audience members would have an easier time following along. Shouting out "Shadowless Kick!", for example, was simply a way for viewers or readers to realize that he was using his "finishing move" and it was time to cheer.

In real life, calling out moves was only done for assessment purposes in training - to show you could perform a stance or attack properly you would call out its name and the master would check to see if it was correct. No one even considered shouting out moves in combat until some executive decided it would make for better TV.

toddex
2008-10-09, 03:47 AM
I just thought I'd let you know that while Wong Fei Hung is indeed a real man and folk hero of China, calling out moves was a movie and book trope so that audience members would have an easier time following along. Shouting out "Shadowless Kick!", for example, was simply a way for viewers or readers to realize that he was using his "finishing move" and it was time to cheer.

In real life, calling out moves was only done for assessment purposes in training - to show you could perform a stance or attack properly you would call out its name and the master would check to see if it was correct. No one even considered shouting out moves in combat until some executive decided it would make for better TV.


Wong was a master of the Chinese martial art Hung Gar. He systematized the predominant style of Hung Gar and choreographed its version of the famous Tiger Crane Paired Form Fist, which incorporates his "Ten Special Fist" techniques. Wong was famous for his skill with the technique known as the "Shadowless Kick". He was known to state the names of the techniques he used while fighting.

-edit Just a copy pasta from wikipedia but if I really felt like it i could search through the entries listed sources.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-09, 04:56 AM
-edit Just a copy pasta from wikipedia but if I really felt like it i could search through the entries listed sources.Do you really trust Wiki on something that has been said to be popular confusion?

toddex
2008-10-09, 09:54 AM
Do you really trust Wiki on something that has been said to be popular confusion?

Well in this case it has the same weight as Baidas comment. I really dont feel like pursuing it further though.

monty
2008-10-09, 10:14 AM
-edit Just a copy pasta from wikipedia but if I really felt like it i could search through the entries listed sources.

See, there's your problem.

Inyssius Tor
2008-10-09, 11:00 AM
...but if I really felt like it i could search through the entries listed sources.

And you would find that the page lacks not only any reliable sources of any kind, but also any unreliable sources that say what the article says!

chiasaur11
2008-10-09, 11:51 AM
No, that was a joke, I wasn't actually asking for optimization advice. :smalltongue:

I wonder if one could get any use out of a Helm of Being Filled With Water, though...

Assassination attempts.
Most people don't expect a HAT to drown them.


Most.

AstralFire
2008-10-09, 12:12 PM
I was under the impression that "calling out attack names" in combat was a result of radio dramas.

Roderick_BR
2008-10-09, 03:39 PM
Rice Paper Walk

Footpaddin'

It's a joke that began in the PH.
Tongue of the sun and the moon.
Wholeness of body.
Flurry of blows.

It started *before* renaming things.

herrhauptmann
2008-10-09, 03:54 PM
Assassination attempts.
Most people don't expect a HAT to drown them.

Most.

Combine it with a False aura (whatever it's called: makes a necro item look conjuration or something), and a lodestone. Soon as they put it on, they cant get rid of it.
Or some of D&D's krazy-glue.

LibraryOgre
2008-10-09, 09:51 PM
Assassination attempts.
Most people don't expect a HAT to drown them.


Most.
1st edition players do.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-09, 10:05 PM
Assassination attempts.
Most people don't expect a HAT to drown them.


Most.This is why I don't DM. I would go mad with power, and I have a very Gygaxian sense of humor.

Any DM can make the players fear ceilings, but it takes true skill to make them fear the air.

monty
2008-10-09, 10:06 PM
This is why I don't DM. I would go mad with power, and I have a very Gygaxian sense of humor.

Any DM can make the players fear ceilings, but it takes true skill to make them fear the air.

Just use nerve gas on them once. Once they realize you can kill them with something they can't sense, they'll spend the rest of their pitiful lives in fear.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-09, 10:13 PM
Just use nerve gas on them once. Once they realize you can kill them with something they can't sense, they'll spend the rest of their pitiful lives in fear.Nerve Gas is easy. Animate Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateObjects.htm) is where the real fun is.

toddex
2008-10-10, 01:26 AM
And you would find that the page lacks not only any reliable sources of any kind, but also any unreliable sources that say what the article says!


See, there's your problem.


And his comment carries more weight to the entries because...? Amazing bias here.

Ascension
2008-10-10, 02:15 AM
Combine it with a False aura (whatever it's called: makes a necro item look conjuration or something), and a lodestone. Soon as they put it on, they cant get rid of it.
Or some of D&D's krazy-glue.

Not necessary. Well, the false aura maybe, but the lodestone and/or krazy-glue isn't necessary. Why? Cursed items are automatically non-removable. They're beautiful that way.

FelixZ
2008-10-10, 02:19 AM
Like how they say the best schools for an Illusionist to drop are Conjuration and Transmutation? Or that Weapon Focus is useful in almost every book?

Or that the Astral Construct needed to be nerfed? :smallfurious:

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-10, 02:23 AM
What was wrong with the Astral Construct?

The Rose Dragon
2008-10-10, 02:32 AM
What was wrong with the Astral Construct?

Nothing. That's why people are mad it's nerfed.

Then again, people are mad at Complete Psionic in general, because it makes no sense and outright ignores established fluff.

Atticus Bleak
2008-10-10, 05:00 AM
toddex, I think they are mostly pointing out that while his comment has no references, your reference comes from the opinion of possibly mislead people. I would also like to point out that that article begins the "early life" segment with "Legend has it."
I always thought He was one of the Ten Tigers, myself, but going by this article it was his father that was a Tiger.
Also, at least in the case of the Shadowless Kick which involves distracting your opponent with your hands through grapple or some other distraction and kicking while they are unprepared, saying "Shadowless kick" loudly to them beforehand seems ill advised.

Yours,
Wherever I am needed,
Atticus Bleak

shadow_archmagi
2008-10-10, 06:10 AM
Whoa! Thanks! If you hadn't signed at the bottom there, I would have no way of knowing who you were! My lucky day, isn't it?

Sarcasm and pointless bickering aside, I hate to give my players a helm of being filled with water. Next to a big box of scrolls, some of which are water breathing, and some of which are...

Fun stuff. With any luck, the players being firing at random to get to the water breathing one (I'll need some way to make sure they know there are some).


"Okay, roll one fort save against drowning, one against level drain, and one against disintegration"

Roderick_BR
2008-10-10, 06:46 AM
Nerve Gas is easy. Animate Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateObjects.htm) is where the real fun is.
Try animating the whole room http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm (look for Lurker Above, Trapper, and Stunjelly)
Someone really need to stat these in 3.5 and 4.0

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-10, 06:53 AM
Try animating the whole room http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm (look for Lurker Above, Trapper, and Stunjelly)
Someone really need to stat these in 3.5 and 4.0Tell me, how do you plan to fight Animated air?:smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2008-10-10, 07:48 AM
Tell me, how do you plan to fight Animated air?:smallbiggrin:

Get some Captain Planet villains in the house.

Eldariel
2008-10-10, 07:51 AM
Tell me, how do you plan to fight Animated air?:smallbiggrin:

Gust of Wind :P

NephandiMan
2008-10-10, 08:33 AM
Don't forget to Disintegrate it beforehand. :smallwink:

Green Bean
2008-10-10, 08:46 AM
Gust of Wind :P

In Soviet Russia... :smallbiggrin:

NephandiMan
2008-10-10, 09:07 AM
What, wind gusts you?

monty
2008-10-10, 10:29 AM
Try animating the whole room http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm (look for Lurker Above, Trapper, and Stunjelly)
Someone really need to stat these in 3.5 and 4.0

Ah yes, the room of death.

Nohwl
2008-10-10, 12:51 PM
I wonder if one could get any use out of a Helm of Being Filled With Water, though...

if i was dm, i would give it to the bbeg if the pcs got captured. put it on them and it would make a great time limit. as a pc, only if i wanted to torture someone in an evil campaign.

Atticus Bleak
2008-10-10, 05:50 PM
I apologize for joining in the useless bickering, it was late and such. Also, I enjoy my signing, thank you.

Also, @ animate room, don't forget the animate doors from Ravenloft and 3 chest shaped mimics in the room to draw the party in.

@ waterhelm. That is an awesome idea, now i might have to roll up Abe Sapien with a waterhelm.

Yours,
Wherever I am needed,
Atticus Bleak

LibraryOgre
2008-10-10, 07:30 PM
I apologize for joining in the useless bickering, it was late and such. Also, I enjoy my signing, thank you.

Also, @ animate room, don't forget the animate doors from Ravenloft and 3 chest shaped mimics in the room to draw the party in.

Living walls.


@ waterhelm. That is an awesome idea, now i might have to roll up Abe Sapien with a waterhelm.

See, I saw it as a torture device. Waterhelming, anyone?

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-11, 02:32 AM
Wouldn't just dunking someone underwater be easier and cheaper, Mark? Incidentally, how much would a helmet like that cost to make?

Roderick_BR
2008-10-11, 11:13 AM
Whoa! Thanks! If you hadn't signed at the bottom there, I would have no way of knowing who you were! My lucky day, isn't it?

Sarcasm and pointless bickering aside, I hate to give my players a helm of being filled with water. Next to a big box of scrolls, some of which are water breathing, and some of which are...

Fun stuff. With any luck, the players being firing at random to get to the water breathing one (I'll need some way to make sure they know there are some).


"Okay, roll one fort save against drowning, one against level drain, and one against disintegration"
To make it look "on-topic", have a water-breathing creature use it, but don't let the players know what is it's true purpose. The enchantment is there to be sure the helm won't fall off the guy while he's fighting, and only the wizards at his underwater realm knows how to remove it. It's funnier when you make it looks like the PC screwed himself for being too greedy,and bite your bait :smalltongue:

LibraryOgre
2008-10-11, 11:24 PM
Wouldn't just dunking someone underwater be easier and cheaper, Mark? Incidentally, how much would a helmet like that cost to make?

Sure, it would be easier and cheaper. But it wouldn't be as COOL!