Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

[ken-do-nim]

I never hear it get talked about. A sorcerer 6 / paladin 4 / eldritch knight 10 career path seems to me like a potent* character choice. I think the character also has excellent solo play viability once the prestige class itself is entered. What do you think?

(*potent doesn't necessarily mean 'the best', just good, maybe equivalent to a tier 2 class taken the whole way.)

[Isomenes]

It does seem useful for advancing spellcasting and BAB, but nowadays it seems there are better PrCs for that, mostly specializing in one or more schools. (It seems that 3.5 rewards specialization, so choose your poison, I guess.) Were I building a gish and needed higher than 5th level spells, I'd go with EK over Duskblade. But EK doesn't grant nearly as many bonus feats as it should.

[AstralFire]

It's mostly because the EK is a very boring and kind of sloppy gish compared to things like Jade Phoenix Mage, the base Bard, Duskblade and Abjurant Champion. I mean, yeah, it does its job well. That's for sure. But it's basically there only to achieve the job of "spellcaster with high BAB", and not anything cool like "I backflip over you while invoking the wrath of the desert winds" or crap.

[Burley]

Because it has Eldritch in the name, yet is practically impossible (and possibly impractical) for a Warlock to PrC into it.
The name lies.

[Temp.]

It has recently come to my attention that there is a clear distinction between the description of Archmage/Loremaster Spellcasting advancement and Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster/Mystic Theurge Spellcasting advancement: where the Archmage and Loremaster explicitly state that they grant "Spells Known" upon level-up, the less-focused casting Prestige Classes do not.

Because this distinction exists within a single book and appears follows an apparent pattern (classes focused on spellcasting fully advance; classes with several schticks do not), I believe the omission was fully intended by the writers.

This means the Eldritch Knight has reached a new low in my eyes. It is a dead-end for Sorcerers and an at-best mediocre choice for Wizards. Without any "Spells Known" advancement, without class abilities, without full spellcasting, without decent Hit Points and without any redeeming fluff, the Eldritch Knight has no appeal left for me. Spellsword 2 and 3 are strictly superior to Eldritch Knight 1 and 2 and Ruathar and Sacred Exorcist both have easy entry and acceptable Gish framework.

[Crow]

If your group plays with only the core 3 books or the SRD it is basically your only option for a potent gish. Ranger1/Wizard5/EK10/Archmage4 is in most cases better than a bard. It requires a mutable playstyle though.

level 1 - play like a ranger
levels 2-9 - play like a sorcerer and make use of your scrolls
levels 10+ - spellcasting begins to catch up along with BAB.
levels 14+ - Gish

For a gish starting at level 1, you'll do better with a bard. For a game starting at higher levels, go with EK.

If your group uses all the splatbooks, EK is really only good for filling out levels to finish out a better gish build.

[Fax Celestis]

Why be an Eldritch Knight, when you can be a Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) and get the same benefits, plus actual class features?

[Piggy Knowles]

The biggest problem with Eldritch Knight isn't so much that new PrCs outclass.

Instead, it's the fact that in general, a somewhat higher BAB does not come class to the fighting power that 9th level spells give you. While it is certainly feasible to have BOTH, you are almost certainly delaying your 9th level spells, and you're guaranteed to have less of them than someone who just stuck it out with straight Wizard.

There are some neat things you can do that benefit a higher BAB, of course - Quickened True Strike (core) and Persistent Wraithstrike (non-Core) + Power Attack shenanigans can lead to some terrifying damage output. But that is still somewhat one-trick ponyish.

But yeah, Abjurant Champion and others definitely kick the crap out of the EK.

[Tengu_temp]

Why be an Eldritch Knight, when you can be a Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) and get the same benefits, plus actual class features?

Pwned. Requires Still Spell, though, a feat that will be ultimately (Battle Caster + mithril full plate) useless to you.

[AstralFire]

The biggest problem with Eldritch Knight isn't so much that new PrCs outclass.

Instead, it's the fact that in general, a somewhat higher BAB does not come class to the fighting power that 9th level spells give you. While it is certainly feasible to have BOTH, you are almost certainly delaying your 9th level spells, and you're guaranteed to have less of them than someone who just stuck it out with straight Wizard.

There are some neat things you can do that benefit a higher BAB, of course - Quickened True Strike (core) and Persistent Wraithstrike (non-Core) + Power Attack shenanigans can lead to some terrifying damage output. But that is still somewhat one-trick ponyish.

But yeah, Abjurant Champion and others definitely kick the crap out of the EK.

Also, I repeat, it is boring!

[Fax Celestis]

Pwned. Requires Still Spell, though, a feat that will be ultimately (Battle Caster + mithril full plate) useless to you.
Only if you don't cast from horseback--which, considering that the Knight Phantom gets Ride as a class skill and has phantom steed as an SLA, you might well be doing a lot.

But still. Nothing says pwnage quite like smiting vampiric touch delivered through a lance on a charge. Mmm. Tasty, tasty temporary hit points.

[Starsinger]

From a non-optimized stand point, it bores me to tears. I want class features. It's bad enough my favorite class (Sorcerer) gets none because it's a full caster, (Except druids which not only get powerful class features but lots of flavorful ones), but now I'm really continuing the same progression for some extra bab oh and trading a caster level for a feat... (outside of requirements of course).

The problem with Eldritch Knight really is that it's bland. It's a bit like an ice sculpture. It's solid, but it doesn't have much taste to it.

[Temp.]

Why be an Eldritch Knight, when you can be a Knight Phantom and get the same benefits, plus actual class features? I did it for the two extra feats. For a feat-starved Gish, that means Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, Robilar's Gambit or Improved Trip access. I find all more useful than the KP bonuses.

[Crow]

It has recently come to my attention that there is a clear distinction between the description of Archmage/Loremaster Spellcasting advancement and Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster/Mystic Theurge Spellcasting advancement: where the Archmage and Loremaster explicitly state that they grant "Spells Known" upon level-up, the less-focused casting Prestige Classes do not.

Because this distinction exists within a single book and appears follows an apparent pattern (classes focused on spellcasting fully advance; classes with several schticks do not), I believe the omission was fully intended by the writers.

This means the Eldritch Knight has reached a new low in my eyes. It is a dead-end for Sorcerers and an at-best mediocre choice for Wizards. Without any "Spells Known" advancement, without class abilities, without full spellcasting, without decent Hit Points and without any redeeming fluff, the Eldritch Knight has no appeal left for me. Spellsword 2 and 3 are strictly superior to Eldritch Knight 1 and 2 and Ruathar and Sacred Exorcist both have easy entry and acceptable Gish framework.

Dude, according to the SRD they all advance +1 level of existing class or some-such. Where are you getting this from???

As others have said, prestige classes from other books will make a better gish, but if you don't have access to them, EK is just fine. You get your 9th level spells later, but if getting them early was your goal, you probably just wanted to be a wizard, and 7th and 8th level spellcasting is nothing to sneeze at.

Interestingly, nobody seems to complain about the Duskblade's lack of 9th level spellcasting. Ek doesn't get all the goodies of the Duskblade, but the ability to eventually cast any 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells I want (even later than normal) is an equitable trade-off for me.

[Temp.]

Dude, according to the SRD they all advance +1 level of existing class or some-such. Where are you getting this from???The text in both the SRD and DMG, combined with the lack of errata.

[Crow]

Whoa, nevermind...You're right, Sorcerers and Bards are screwed with Eldritch Knight.

[Temp.]

According to d20srd.org:

Spells per Day/Spells Known
When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day. Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm)


Spells per Day
From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm)

The DMG is the same.

[Fax Celestis]

Dude, under the class features it specifically states that you get spells per day and spells known (if applicable). Read the PrC's again. It is there.

No, Temp's got a point. Reread that.


Originally Posted by Archmage
Spells per Day/Spells Known
When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.
vs.

Spells per Day
From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

[Starsinger]

The NeverWinter Nights (1) games seem to agree with Temp. Unless the class said "And Spells Known" it was useless to Sorcerers, and luck based and expensive for Wizards.

[Crow]

Chill guys, I got edit ninja'd.

[Tengu_temp]

Why are you people arguing about RAW when it's obvious that by RAI, Eldritch Knight gets new spells the same way all caster PrCs do? Only with a 9/10 rate?

[Temp.]

Why are you people arguing about RAW when it's obvious that by RAI, Eldritch Knight gets new spells the same way all caster PrCs do? Because this is a pattern in the DMG, I believe it is RAI.

Archmage gets full spells known. Loremaster gets full spells known. Spellcasting is the one thing both of them do.

Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge, on the other hand, do not get spells known. Thematically, I suppose they aren't as focused of spellcasters; I don't know.

That what should have been a cut-and-paste job wasn't, that there were differences and that the differences follow discernable patterns tells me that this is a deliberate distinction.

[AstralFire]

I think part of the concern is that it's not sure to be RAI since classes within the same book have. It's certainly Rules As Not Stupid, but...

[Tengu_temp]

Because this is a pattern in the DMG, I believe it is RAI.

Archmage gets full spells known. Loremaster gets full spells known. Spellcasting is the one thing both of them do.

Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge, on the other hand, do not get spells known. Thematically, I suppose they aren't as focused of spellcasters; I don't know.

That what should have been a cut-and-paste job wasn't, that there were differences and that the differences follow discernable patterns tells me that this is a deliberate distinction.

I doubt if they purposely written these classes as Useless For Spontaneous Casters. Probably they had two writers and one of each forgot to put the clause (because he still lives in the times when most RPG fans weren't RAWtards and they knew that you cannot take actions while dead, even if it isn't outright stated), or a similar mistake.

[Starsinger]

I doubt if they purposely written these classes as Useless For Spontaneous Casters. Probably they had two writers and one of each forgot to put the clause (because he still lives in the times when most RPG fans weren't RAWtards and they knew that you cannot take actions while dead, even if it isn't outright stated), or a similar mistake.

Now this is where we disagree. I fully believe that they purposely wrote these classes to be Useless For Spontaneous Casters.

[Fax Celestis]

You mean Useless For Anyone Who Has No Alternate Spell Learning Mechanic.

[Tengu_temp]

Now this is where we disagree. I fully believe that they purposely wrote these classes to be Useless For Spontaneous Casters.

Then either you are mistaken or I'm having too much faith in human intelligence and people at Wizards are even stupider than I thought (they probably thought "sorcerers are much stronger than wizards so let's balance them by making them non-compatible with any PrCs!1 lalx!!1one").

[Starsinger]

Then either you are mistaken or I'm having too much faith in human intelligence and people at Wizards are extremely stupid (they probably thought "sorcerers are much stronger than wizards so let's balance them by making them non-compatible with any PrCs!1 lalx!!1one").

I uhh.. point you to the only specifically spontaneous caster PrC in the DMG. Sure, Wizards of the Coast loves Sorcerers and Wizards the exact same...

[Piggy Knowles]

I don't have the DMG in front of me, but I was under the impression that the flavor text in them mentioned spontaneous casters. Not that flavor text has any influence in a RAW debate, but it might in a RAI debate...

That being said, the books are at home and I am at work, so it's vague memory I am working off of.

[AstralFire]

Then either you are mistaken or I'm having too much faith in human intelligence and people at Wizards are even stupider than I thought (they probably thought "sorcerers are much stronger than wizards so let's balance them by making them non-compatible with any PrCs!1 lalx!!1one").

It was a mix of Skip Williams going "SPONTANEOUS CASTERS ARE EVIL MUST HOSE THEM REPEATEDLY" and the rest of the design team thinking rules mastery was a good design virtue.

[Tengu_temp]

I uhh.. point you to the only specifically spontaneous caster PrC in the DMG. Sure, Wizards of the Coast loves Sorcerers and Wizards the exact same...

My point is that most non-core caster PrCs have their spell advancement written the way Eldritch Knight does, not the way Archmage does. So, if it's RAI that these classes don't gain new spells, it means all of them are purposely useless for sorcerers.

[Fax Celestis]

My point is that most non-core caster PrCs have their spell advancement written the way Eldritch Knight does, not the way Archmage does.

Actually, no. Most include the (and spells known, if applicable) line.

[Temp.]

they probably thought "sorcerers are much stronger than wizards so let's balance them by making them non-compatible with any PrCs!1 lalx!!1oneI was under the impression that this was very much the way they felt about the Sorcerer until fairly recently.

Also, these are the people who felt that the Dragon Disciple is a viable gish. And it apparently was--when compared to an Eldritch Knight with gimped spell advancement.

[Crow]

Ah well. Wizards still aren't affected (as usual). I think they really were afraid of the spontaneous casters.

The thing that worries me is the Mystic Theurge entry. How does he ever get more cleric spells?

...and in my opinion, the Dragon Disciple was never intended as a gish.

[Tengu_temp]

Actually, no. Most include the (and spells known, if applicable) line.

Hmm. Mind giving me some links to online caster PrCs? I only have the Knight Phantom at the moment, and its advancement is written the same way EK's is.

Maybe Wizards want to weaken the gish and mage/thief prestige classes that way? If that's the case, it's another epic fail moment for them - "full BAB & higher HP is too much for losing 1 caster level, NEEERF!!!1" is as far from true as possible.

[Starsinger]

"full BAB & higher HP is too much for losing 1 caster level, NEEERF!!!1" is as far from true as possible.

A very similar belief is why Hexblade casting sucks so bad.

[Tengu_temp]

Granted, if we wanted to talk about a game whose creators know sh*t about the system they created, we'd be discussing Exalted or M&M here, not DND...

[Temp.]

The thing that worries me is the Mystic Theurge entry. How does he ever get more cleric spells?Clerics don't need "spells known," just spell slots. Sorcerer and Bard are the only core classes affected by the wording.


Complete Warrior: Bladesinger and Spellsword both only get Spells per Day. This would be expected.
Complete Divine: Most prestige classes gain both. Sacred Exorcist and Rainbow Servant are hazy--their charts say "Spells per Day," as is typical in this book, their headings say "Spells per Day/Spells Known" and their text is unique in neglecting mention of whether Spells Known should be advanced. For the Rainbow Servant, this makes some sense--they learn Domain spells automatically. For the Sacred Exorcist it isn't clear--maybe Wizards realized it had snazzy Gish potential or that casters lost nothing by entering the class, that Sorcerers even got synergistic Turn attempts at level 1. Or maybe it is a mistake.
Complete Arcane: Enlightened Fist and Green Star Adept get both. Wizards changed its cut-and-paste somewhere along the line.
Complete Adventurer: Daggerspell Mage gets both Spells per Day and Spells known. There aren't really any others where it would be applicable.

[Zeful]

Ah well. Wizards still aren't affected (as usual). I think they really were afraid of the spontaneous casters.

The thing that worries me is the Mystic Theurge entry. How does he ever get more cleric spells?

...and in my opinion, the Dragon Disciple was never intended as a gish.

Because clerics don't have a Spells Known Table and are therefore aren't affected by the lack of the phrase "(and Spells Known if applicable)". Only Sorcerers, Bards, and every other caster with a Spells Known table are affected.

[Starsinger]

Because clerics don't have a Spells Known Table and are therefore aren't affected by the lack of the phrase "(and Spells Known if applicable)". Only Sorcerers, Bards, and every other caster with a Spells Known table are affected.

Not true. Classes that keep Spell Books (such as Wizard) who gain a certain amount of free spells per level are affected by Spells Known. A wizard won't gain the 2 free spells per level unless the class also advances Spells Known.

[Zeful]

Not true. Classes that keep Spell Books (such as Wizard) who gain a certain amount of free spells per level are affected by Spells Known. A wizard won't gain the 2 free spells per level unless the class also advances Spells Known.

I disagree personally, as I see the inclusion of the phrase "Spells Known" as specifically referencing the Spells Known tables. However, it's also reasonable to accept your interpretation. However with your interpretation most divine PrCs lock down divine casters harshly (as most may not advance spells known).

[Piggy Knowles]

I disagree personally, as I see the inclusion of the phrase "Spells Known" as specifically referencing the Spells Known tables. However, it's also reasonable to accept your interpretation. However with your interpretation most divine PrCs lock down divine casters harshly (as most may not advance spells known).

Except not at all, because the majority of Divine casters don't HAVE spells known - they automatically know all their spells, and can only prepare so many.

[Temp.]

However with your interpretation most divine PrCs lock down divine casters harshly (as most may not advance spells known). Most Divine Casters can prepare any spells on their class list just like Archivists and Wizards can prepare any spells in their spellbooks.

The problem is that Wizards only add spells to their spellbooks when copying from scrolls/other spellbooks and when gaining "wizard levels." A better question than "Do Eldritch Knight levels allow Wizards to add the normal two spells to their spellbooks?" might be "Do any Prestige Class Levels allow Wizards to add the normal two spells to their spellbooks?"--The question is whether Spells Known are the same as spells added.

Honestly, I'm not convinced they are or that they were intended to be.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I'm pretty certain my Eldritch Knight is pretty popular. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57794)

[Paul H]

Hi

I can see the arguments on both sides here. Safest bet is to take a spellcasting class that knows their entire spell list, just needing the extra spell slots.

Ones I use are Cleric, Beguiler & Warmage.
(Have a Clr/Warmage/Mystic Theurge with a Wiz/Beguiler cohort).

To be honest - with all the items in the MIC* now allowing you to use spell slots for other spells, not really sure if Sorceror's really necessary now. (Unless you're taking the Draconic feats from Races of Dragon, etc).

* Raiment of the Four, Runestaves.
(Raiment has goggles that make you immune to Blindness/Dazzle. Also allow you to 'convert' 3rd lvl spell or highr into Fireball at your CL. But only 3/day).

Have recently made up a Ftr/Warmage 6/EK xxxxx. Uses spell-storing bow, but can still unleash Disintegrate when he needs too........ :smallwink:

Cheers
Paul H