Need help choosing a class (Sor vs Brd vs Beguiler)

[nc-edsl]

I'm a bit stuck, and was hoping you guys would be able to help me. My goal is to build a decent caster with a bluff score that's as high as possible. So far, it looks like the best choice is Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 (or Bard 9/Virtuoso1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 9, if my DM allows it.) However, this would miss out on many good lvl 1-3 spells. The other choices I was considering were Sorcerer or Beguiler, but Sorcerer doesn't get glibness (+30 bluff) and Beguiler uses Int as it's primary spellcasting stat. Which class do you think would be best in this situation, and why? Also, any tips on boosting bluff?

Also, a quick question regarding stats: We're using point-buy, and I was thinking of using a Spellscale (+2 Cha, -2 Con). Is it better to go with
Str 8/Con 8/Dex 12/Int 14/Wis 8/Cha 19
or
Str 8/Con 6/Dex 14/Int 14/Wis 8/Cha 19
Basically, how much would I be screwed by Con 6 for a primarily ranged/caster character?

(Hope I'm not being to presumptuous.)

[Temp.]

Which class do you think would be best in this situation, and why? Also, any tips on boosting bluff?Bard. For the sake of Improvisation alone. Also, Bardic Music and Virtuoso abilities complement a social character far more than the Beguiler's stealth-casting or the Sorcerer's familiar.

Basically, how much would I be screwed by Con 6 for a primarily ranged/caster character?Very. A couple points of area-of-effect damage and you're dead. One bad Fort save and you're dead. A single arrow hit and you're dead.

[valadil]

I wouldn't bother with Sorcerer as Bard and Beguiler are more well suited to the task. Do you care about bardic music and/or buffing? More often than not a bard's contributions to the party during combat come from buffs. I haven't seen a Beguiler played, but I think their contributions come from enchantments and illusions. So, in combat do you want to buff your allies or charm your foes?

[Kurald Galain]

I'm a bit stuck, and was hoping you guys would be able to help me. My goal is to build a decent caster with a bluff score that's as high as possible.
That would be bard, yes. Although beguiler is a much better caster, and if you account for skill bonuses, boosting items, and the Glibness spell, the fact that it has a slightly lower charisma really doesn't make a big difference.


Also, a quick question regarding stats: We're using point-buy, and I was thinking of using a Spellscale (+2 Cha, -2 Con). Is it better to go with
Neither. Drop your cha a few ranks and get a decent con score. Seriously, with those hit dice you're getting you want a +2 con bonus. Dex is less important, actually.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd say Beguiller due to their skills, and the fact that they better at casting spells which are concerned with deception then Bards (also, I'd say you should try to have at least 12 Con in case you get hit by something nasty, and I like HPs).

[nc-edsl]

Alright, how about a Grey Elf Beguiler with Str 7/Con 10/Dex 14/Int 18/Wis 8/Cha 14? In that case, are there any particularly good spells for their "Advanced Learning" feature, and what would be good feats?

[JaxGaret]

You can throw in some levels of Lyric Thaumaturge before you hit SC/Virtuoso, for some added casting oomph.

[Paul H]

Hi

Beguilers can take the Serene Visage (SpC) as their 'Bonus' spell at 3rd lvl. This adds 1/2 caster lvl Insight bonus to Bluff. Mask of the Ideal (CM) grants +4 Competence bonus for Bluff/Diplomacy etc. (You can take this at 7th lvl as Advanced Learning.

Don't forget there's always the 'Charm/Dominate' series of spells they thay get, too. They also get plenty of Skill Points for those synergy bonuses. (Though Know Nobility is cross-class for them).

Also, Warlocks have Beguiling Influence for +6 unspecified bonus to Bluff/Diplomacy/intimidate for 24hrs.

Beguilerxxxx/Warlock 1 gets loads of bonuses.
(Will check Eldritch Theurge build later)

Cheers
Paul H

[Stupendous_Man]

mask of lies, mic, 4500 gp

+5 bluff, undetectable alignment continuously, disguise self 3/day

[nc-edsl]

@Paul H: Eldritch Theurge requires at least 3 levels of Warlock, which would mean no lvl 9 Beguiler spells. (Also, I played a Warlock in the last game with this DM and don't want to get repetitive.)

@Stupendous Man: What book is Mask of Lies from?

I'm thinking of Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Beguiler X for two reasons. Firstly, it bumps 3 of the Advanced Learning spells from level 3,6,7 to level 4,6,8, respectively; and secondly it grants Telepathy, which can be used together with Bluff for all sorts of fun. (Is there any way to boost one's arcane caster level from 2 to 5 to qualify for Mindbender earlier? That would boost another Advanced Learning spell, from lvl1 to lvl2).

[DeathQuaker]

I'd say overall it's a tossup between Bard and Beguiler.... either could be very effective. It also depends on what you have access to for your build.

Tangent: A general request to OP as well as the board: if you want help with a build, please let us know books you are allowed to use. I tend to assume Core only unless stated otherwise, because I don't know what the player has access to. Please don't assume we know what books you're using by stating the feats or PrCs you're using (I have absolutely no clue what the heck a Sublime Chord is or where it comes from. I do know a Beguiler is from PHB II at least).

((Tangentially, it also really annoys the hell out of me when I ask for Core only or a certain set of books and people start suggesting Feats and PrCs from books I've never even cracked open and have no access to--and of course never even mention said books. We do not all have the same game libraries, folks.))

Back on topic: Ultimately, both the Bard and the Beguiler have ways you could do extremely well in Bluff, so I'd say ultimately the question is what do you want to play--someone who's primary job it is to inspire the party with story and song, or an enigmatic trickster focused on the magics of deception and illusion? If being able to lie really well is the core of your concept and what you want is a Deceiver, I'd go for Beguiler for flavor. A number of folks have already suggested some PrCs that allow you to take that as far as you can.

As for your stats:


Str 8/Con 8/Dex 12/Int 14/Wis 8/Cha 19
or
Str 8/Con 6/Dex 14/Int 14/Wis 8/Cha 19


Very no. Frankly, the heinous min-maxing will kill you. You're not going to find yourself well-rounded enough for a good DM's campaign, and a Bad DM is going to throw Fortitude Saves at you at every opportunity to just make you cry.

Even if you are the Bluff king, you do NOT need to waste your point buy points on a Cha 17 (assuming it's 19 from your character's race). Drop it to 15--which still makes it 17 after racial adjustments, which is an exceptional starting stat in any game I've ever played. Spread the four freed-up points elsewhere. Con and Dex if you go Bard. If you go Beguiler, you will probably want to redistribute to boost Int if possible to 15 as well, but try to get that Con up to no negative modifiers if at all possible (I think you could do Con 10 Int 15 with your first configuration otherwise the same).

Fact, I'd probably forget the Spellscale and just do a Human with my bonus Feat as a Skill Focus in Bluff. The extra skill points from human will also make building up Bluff easier, along with Sense Motive (so you can call others' bluffs as well)--and still have enough left over for more useful combat and other non-combat skills like Concentration and Knowledges. Maybe Tumble, if you have that as a class skill. Not being hit will be important for a character like yours.

But if you like the feel/flavor of the Spellscale stick with it.

[Paul H]

Hi

Theurge doesn't need 3 levels of Warlock, just 2D6 Eldritch Blast. My GM allows Practiced Spellcaster for Warlocks.

Practiced Spellcaster increases caster level, (max +4 lvls), but can never exceed your current Hit Dice. So, in theory you can take another class, then use P/Spellcaster to delay your Beguiler progression, but not sure it's worth it.

Eg.
Beguiler2/Wiz3/Mindbender/Beguiler xxxx, or
Beguiler 2/Warlock 3/Mindbender/Beguiler xxxx

The first build is for Ultimate Magus, where you can transfer some of your Wiz spells onto your Beguiler list. The latter allows Detect Magic at will, Beguiling Influence for the +6 Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate, and one other 'essence', (eg See the Unseen, or All Seeing Eyes). You also gain DR 1/Cold Iron. But you do lose three potential ranks in Diplomacy skill.

Beguilers get some excellent spells, and I wouldn't detract from it unless the benefits were really good.

Cheers
Paul H

[Paul H]

Hi

Just remembered - best Diplomacy King I've ever seen was from a Living Greyhawk Campaign.

Human Bard/Lyric Theurmatage (CM)/Sublime Chord (CA). Had all the skill synergies, probably Skill Focus as well. Cha 22 also helped. Managed to do the 'Who....... Me'? down pat. Even against some angry Efreet on one occasion!

Death Quaker - understand where you're coming from. I can't afford as many books as I'd like.
CA = Complete Arcane
CM = Complete Mage

Cheers
Paul H

[Kurald Galain]

Theurge doesn't need 3 levels of Warlock, just 2D6 Eldritch Blast. My GM allows Practiced Spellcaster for Warlocks.

Yeah, but RAW doesn't. Just sayin'.

[dspeyer]

Beguiler with the Rapscallion feat (bluff based on int). Only needing one mental stat should allow you a little more defense, and the maxed int should give you lots of helpful skills.

[Talya]

Alternately, see my sig. (Without the homebrew vow.)

[Paul H]

Hi

Where's the Rapscallion feat from? Got a Beguiler and was just interested...

Cheers
Paul H