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Kol Korran
2008-10-07, 04:02 PM
hello all! i've been away for several months, and only recently got back on the forum, so excuse me if i'm rusty. i have an interest in taking monsters from the encounter level to the adventure, or even the campaign level, as some of you may allready know. (if you're intrigued, check out the link in my sig. just scroll down to whatever peeks your curiousity). now lately i've become interested in Hydras- i love the image, the myths behind it, and the possibilites for play it may hold, if it will be developed a bit.

i have a few ideas for it, but i'd like to hear from you- what are your thoughts, perceptions and concepts for it? i'll list a few of the topics that interest me, and that i think need to be developed (for a good entry on the thread i mentioned). any contributions would be welcomed, and acknowledged when i do write said entry...

oh, one more thing. i know this doesn't interest many people. if that's the case with you, please just choose another thread- no flaming please.

topics: (oh, and feel free to diverge widely from accepted rules)
1) i think the battle mechanics are fairly poor and uninteresting for the hydra... any better ideas? anything more interesting, more playable? any speciaal tactics? (note: the following topics may influence this one considerably)

2) what is the Hydra's life cycle? when do they grow extra heads? after some time has passed or a deed was done? how do they mate? do they lay eggs, give birth to live offsprings, or anything more exotic?

3) on the matter of heads- are any of them older than the others? does this give them any seniority? does it reflect in combat? (such as one had staying back, directing the fight. another head serves as it's protector- providing cover and using the "aid another" option to provide even more protection). can several heads work torgether to (for example) grappel an opponent (to drag him/ her into the water the hydra inhabits).

4) other matters that may be influenced by the number of heads- perception (spot and chances to find an invisible opponent), number of attacks of opportunity per round?

5) an idea that came to me- the hydras head gaining intelligence depending on their respective age and the total number of heads. hydras who lived long enough, and retained at least one original head may even learn to speak! older living hydras may have several speaking heads! now that could be an interesting roleplay encounter...

6) environment: the MM if i'm not mistaken lists Hydras as living in warm marshes. i also mostly envisioned them as swampy kind of creatures. but where have you put them? jungles? oceans? deserts? what's different about them there? how did they adjust? how does the hydra live in it's territory?

7) special relations: which type of creatures fall in a more specialized category than "predator" and "prey" to the hydra? dragons? (the cryo and pyro variations hint at some odd connection) lizard folk? (in my campaigns some lizardman tamed and used hydras, while others hunted them down)? trolls? (both have remarkable regenerative capabilities. maybe they share even more in their past?) i have ideas for the 3 examples above. what are your ideas?

8) do Hydras lair? if so, where? what methods do they use to protect their lair, if any? (this is especially importent for the more intelligent hydras idea i mentioned)

9) which civilizations and culture may have had a special interest in Hydras? whether as guardians for places, symbols for an organization, religion, cult or so, creatures for experimentations (please- something more elaborate than "a wizard did it"), or so on... i'm mostly interested in ideas relating to the worlds of Eberron, FR, or greyhawk (simply because those will be known to whomever may read the thread's entry) but more general ones are fine too...

10) the last segment on each entry is called "in a D&D table near you!" which lists possible encounters that demonstrate the ideas above, and makes them more... alive i guess. so- if you have any cool ideas for encounters with Hydras, especially if it relates to another item you've written, than please share!

that is all i got, thanks in advance,
Kol.

Siegel
2008-10-07, 04:18 PM
I have a few cool ideas in my mind but i have no more time today so stay tuned for some huntig, canabalizing (is this a word) hydra fun.

AslanCross
2008-10-07, 05:22 PM
topics: (oh, and feel free to diverge widely from accepted rules)
1) i think the battle mechanics are fairly poor and uninteresting for the hydra... any better ideas? anything more interesting, more playable? any speciaal tactics? (note: the following topics may influence this one considerably)

I think the hydra is a very complicated monster to run. I was going to try running one in my campaign, but I'm still thinking about it. I think offense-wise it's incredibly strong. Definitely something under-CRed.


2) what is the Hydra's life cycle? when do they grow extra heads? after some time has passed or a deed was done? how do they mate? do they lay eggs, give birth to live offsprings, or anything more exotic?

I'd think that they grow more heads as they age. As for reproduction, I guess they mate like ordinary reptiles. Not all reptiles lay eggs, so I guess either live birth or egg-laying is plausible.


3) on the matter of heads- are any of them older than the others? does this give them any seniority? does it reflect in combat? (such as one had staying back, directing the fight. another head serves as it's protector- providing cover and using the "aid another" option to provide even more protection). can several heads work torgether to (for example) grappel an opponent (to drag him/ her into the water the hydra inhabits).

With heads getting hacked off once in a while (maybe even in fights with dragons), I don't think it makes sense to really have a head heirarchy.


4) other matters that may be influenced by the number of heads- perception (spot and chances to find an invisible opponent), number of attacks of opportunity per round?
Heads would definitely influence number of AOOs per round, even by RAW.
Another special quality that a hydra might have is All-Around Vision, making it immune to flanking.
I don't think simply having a lot of heads makes it any more perceptive against invisible opponents, however. Blindsense is usually given to creatures with extraordinary hearing, electroreceptors, or echolocation.


5) an idea that came to me- the hydras head gaining intelligence depending on their respective age and the total number of heads. hydras who lived long enough, and retained at least one original head may even learn to speak! older living hydras may have several speaking heads! now that could be an interesting roleplay encounter...

I don't know. Having many brains the size of walnuts wouldn't make it smarter, though maybe it might work like a multi-processor computer--just that the individual processors are really slow. Since it's a vicious predator, it might even be safe to assume it has very thick skulls.
Also, since heads might be taken off regularly, it would be very bad for it to lose memories.


6) environment: the MM if i'm not mistaken lists Hydras as living in warm marshes. i also mostly envisioned them as swampy kind of creatures. but where have you put them? jungles? oceans? deserts? what's different about them there? how did they adjust? how does the hydra live in it's territory?

I think it makes sense for it to live in an amphibious environment; perhaps a lake or a swamp. I think it would make sense for it to live in the same environment as large snakes (such as anacondas). Lots of camouflage, and lots of food. The same could be true for the jungle, but I think the trees would get in the way of the heads.

It might also depend what the hydra's body is like. The 3.5 Hydra art gives it a thick, quadruped body similar to a sauropod dinosaur's. Sauropods were said to have lived on vast plains and ate from trees, so it kind of doesn't make sense for the carnivorous hydra. The 4E art shows the hydra as simply a many-headed snake, which would definitely be better for a swamp-dweller.


7) special relations: which type of creatures fall in a more specialized category than "predator" and "prey" to the hydra? dragons? (the cryo and pyro variations hint at some odd connection) lizard folk? (in my campaigns some lizardman tamed and used hydras, while others hunted them down)? trolls? (both have remarkable regenerative capabilities. maybe they share even more in their past?) i have ideas for the 3 examples above. what are your ideas?

The hydra would definitely be near the top of the food chain in its habitat. It's difficult to kill, probably has an incredibly powerful immune system (like real life alligators), and has the advantage of being able to keep on fighting far longer than other creatures. The only creatures who are likely to be able to prey on hydras in their habitat are black dragons (acid breath= instant win) and probably swamp landwyrms and linnorms. Gray linnorms have acid breath, so that's easy.
Swamp landwyrms are said to be able to go toe-to-toe with black dragons, so although they might not be able to kill hydras outright, I'm sure they could regularly prey on tasty regrowing hydra heads.

Hydras are likely to prey on everything that they can swallow. Hippos and gators might be able to fight back, but given the hydra's tenacity, it might end up being able to eat them.


8) do Hydras lair? if so, where? what methods do they use to protect their lair, if any? (this is especially importent for the more intelligent hydras idea i mentioned)

They're likely to lair in caves only to lay eggs. They're also likely to use their best defense: themselves.


9) which civilizations and culture may have had a special interest in Hydras? whether as guardians for places, symbols for an organization, religion, cult or so, creatures for experimentations (please- something more elaborate than "a wizard did it"), or so on... i'm mostly interested in ideas relating to the worlds of Eberron, FR, or greyhawk (simply because those will be known to whomever may read the thread's entry) but more general ones are fine too...

Reptilian races in general. Lizardfolk are most likely to worship them or fear them. They have the same habitat, so they're likely to interact a lot.
Yuan-ti might also take interest in them, though likely for enslavement or use as garbage disposal.
The odd kobold tribe, for lack of a dragon, might try to placate a furious hydra in a nearby swamp. Not really a good idea, but it's cute anyway.

Eberron and FR both have vast swamps and jungles, so hydras are likely to be found in many places.

10) the last segment on each entry is called "in a D&D table near you!" which lists possible encounters that demonstrate the ideas above, and makes them more... alive i guess. so- if you have any cool ideas for encounters with Hydras, especially if it relates to another item you've written, than please share!

bosssmiley
2008-10-08, 03:42 AM
Check the listing for the unique monster The Hydra (note the definitive article) in "Blood Enemies of Cerilia" for the Birthright setting.

Best. Hydra. Ever! :smallcool:

Neon Knight
2008-10-08, 07:26 AM
Get up on the Hydra's back!

....

Sorry about that.

Triaxx
2008-10-08, 07:28 AM
For ease of reference, the d20srd on Hydras: Hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm)

1)First, a Hydra should never full attack against a single target. It has multiple heads and 15ft of reach, it should be attacking everyone it can reach. An improperly handled Hydra is a TPK waiting to happen. I always dump Toughness for Improved Overrun, so it'll plough over the fighters to get at the wizards.

2)Given that cutting off a head doubles the number in that spot, and that it's linked to HD, I'd assume that it grows after battles. Immature Hydra's loose heads easier and are assumed dead, then when both heads reappear, it easily defeats the opponent. The process is repeated until it's strong enough to defeat most opponents straight up.

3)Depends, if you want to stack the BAB, or the Int. I prefer to treat them as a hive mind and an increasing intelligence score. 10 for a five headed hydra, 24 for the twelve headed variety. No, it's not RAW, but it allows for the latter speaking.

4)As a matter of fact, it's specifically stated that it's combat reflexes allows it to use all it's heads, which I'd accept as one attack per head.
While the checks may not stack, each head would allow for a seperate check.

5)As above, a total intelligence score works well, while the individual heads are not particularly bright.

6)The SRD only lists Pyro varieties in warm marshes, with the normals listed in temperate, so it could theoretically only require enough water to drink and be viable anywhere.

7)I've always assumed that Hydra's were an off-shoot on the evolutionary tree, somewhere between dragons and alligators. Or perhaps a dragon 'got busy' with a troll, and the result was a hydra.

For Lizardfolk, I've found that the intelligent variant of hydra's make perfect leaders, using the Lizards not only as preliminary defenses, but to make them stronger. At one point I had a party encounter a 60 headed hydra, leading a band of generally friendly lizardfolk, with a twice yearly ceremony where one would be chosen, and would then ceremoniously sunder one of the Hydra's head. Naturally, the lizard inquestion would then be eaten, but the two heads would grow and the creature got smarter. The sheer power was demonstrated by a dragon that tried to attack for a reason I forget now, but was knocked down by lizardfolk and shredded by several dozen bite attacks.

Another very strong, but not as intelligent Hydra was using a clan of trolls as a food source.

8)Certainly, primarily as a defensive measure, since if you can back in like a warthog, and have only the very offensive heads exposed, and only long enough to attack, it makes for a very difficult fight. Especially against Cryo, or Pyro variants.

9)The above mentioned Lizards had elevated it to near-diety status, and relied on it for protection and direction in combat. A group of Kobolds I threw out at one point were using them as combat mounts, and those with more heads as tanks, as well as Pyro and Cryo-hydra's as offensive weapons. The red-wyrm behind it thought of himself as a master strategist so it was intended not to be an easy fight.

10) I don't have anything on hand, but I'll see if I can dig something up.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-08, 08:59 AM
4. A Hydra gets one bite per head on every AoO, usually able to make two AoOs/round due to Combat Reflexes and Dex 12. Furthermore, any time a Hydra gets to make a single attack, it instead makes a bite with each head. Taking a standard action for an attack gets you a single attack, but a Hydra gets to bite with each head. You get a single attack at the end of a charge, but a Hydra gets to bite with each head. You get a single attack on an AoO, but a Hydra gets to bite with each head. Assuming a Hydra was smart enough to take Combat Expertise for Whirlwind Attack, it would get to make a bite with each head against every opponent within reach.

I would give it a +2 Aid Another check for every head beyond the first on Spot and Listen checks. That would give a 12-headed Hydra a +22 on Listen and Spot checks, for example. A bit powerful, but very fitting.



On the subject of Hydra intelligence, I'd say make one Venerable+, and say they don't take ability penalties for aging and have no maximum age due to their extraordinary healing. That gets it +3 Int, Wis, and Cha. Another possibility would be to make one a Half-Dragon, or even a Half-Fiend. A 12-Headed Venerable Half-Fiend Hydra with the elite array could even have a high enough Int and enough feats to have Whirlwind Attack.

What's to stop you from advancing a Hydra to 13+ HD/heads? As per the Multiheaded template (SS), a Huge creature can only have 11 additional heads, though a Gargantuan creature can have up to 19 extra heads. Therefore, a 13-20-headed Hydra would be Gargantuan, and 21-30-headed would be Colossal. A Hydra gains +2 Str at every odd-numbered head/HD, though it would also have the standard modifiers for increasing a size category. I wouldn't let their Dex fall below 12 though, similar to how a Dragon never has below 10 Dex.

Huge Hydras have a CR one lower than their number of heads, but there's a +1 CR for gaining a size category, so Gargantuan Hydras would have a CR equal to their number of heads, Colossal would have a CR one higher than their number of heads. I doubt a 30-headed Hydra would be a suitable challenge for a level 31 party, though there would be ways of fixing that.

They get Fast Healing 10 + heads, so doubling that at Gargantuan and trippling it at Colossal would be good. I'd say also give its body DR/- equal to 10 + heads at Gargantuan, double that at Colossal, and at Colossal make its body take only half damage from spells as though it were an object and immune to targeted nondamaging spells, making targeted spells only affect one head at a time. That would probably make for a very interesting encounter, especially if the PCs don't have Improved Sunder or any other way to avoid a 30-bite AoO. Add on Whirlwind Attack as a racial bonus feat at 21+ heads to make it a significant challenge without being so dependent on reactive attacks.

A Hydra of this size would probably be one of the oldest creatures native to the material plane, so it would probably be fair to give it additional bonuses to its mental abilities for aging. I'd give it a +1 Int/Wis/Cha at heads number 13, 16, and 19, then at colossal starting at the 21st head I'd give them another +1 to each of those for every additional head. It would still need a template for Whirlwind Attack, unless you decide to make it a racial bonus feat, in which case I'd only include it in the epic versions (21+ heads/HD at CR 22+).

IM@work
2008-10-08, 10:57 AM
1. Hydras have a huge grapple modifier plus 5+ natural attacks. Use it. I personally trade Toughness for improved grapple and go to town on the nearest player. Completly crushed someone this way.

6.As for alternative location hydras:
Our campaign is a desert/Egypt style setting with many desert reptilian-creatures.
The hydra buries itself in the sand and attacks from underneath, rising out in a 15 foot spread to attack an entire party in one fell swoop. It can retreat its severed limbs and regrow new ones so that the party has little chance to damage it and stop the regrowth. Also, its fun to have a pyro-hydra shoot flames and have the party think its just a trap, then have it rise out after they have passed the "trap".
Undead hydra make the hydra a little easier I have found, yet they still keep all attacks, just no regeneration. Lure them into a false sense of security with the undead one, then attack with a living one!

Alveanerle
2008-10-08, 03:18 PM
I always dump Toughness for Improved Overrun, so it'll plough over the fighters to get at the wizards.


Mmm, great idea. Just a small problem - can it make an attack after overrun? In my understanding it's not possible - by RAW overrun is a standard action taken during movement, so there's no space for additional standard actions.

AslanCross
2008-10-08, 05:15 PM
Mmm, great idea. Just a small problem - can it make an attack after overrun? In my understanding it's not possible - by RAW overrun is a standard action taken during movement, so there's no space for additional standard actions.

Overrun is a standard action taken during a move action, so while the hydra can't attack the wizards after it overruns, it is now between the fighters and the wizards. That's a tactically painful situation for the wizard. (and the PCs in general)

Triaxx
2008-10-08, 05:23 PM
Ninja'd with my exact thoughts. Since the job of the fighters is to keep the enemy away from the squishy wizards, and the wizards are the primary threat to a hydra. Bowl through the fighters on turn one, and smash the wizards with lots of damage on the second. Pound for pound the only option for the wizard is to use fly and try and exit range. Provoking the previously mentioned AoO's.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-08, 05:48 PM
A Hydra qualifies for Snatch (MM) and even take Improved Snatch (DCN) and Multisnatch (DCN). That would basically give it Improved Grab usable against Medium and smaller opponents, and it could hold each foe with just the head that grabbed it at a -10 so the rest of the creature isn't considered grappled, each round making a grapple check to deal bite damage. An entire party could end up grappled and taking damage each round. Plus its other heads could still attack opponents being grappled by another head, and the opponent probably wouldn't get their Dex bonus to AC because the other head would be considered an attack from outside the grapple.

I'd forgotten all about that little trick, but it's one of those things that can make a Hydra considerably more dangerous, especially at the lower CRs.

Alveanerle
2008-10-09, 06:10 AM
Regarding overrun - since overrun is a standard action taken during movement, can you even overrun more than one enemy? Wouldn't each additional one require an extra standard action?

Also - hydras have really poor mobility - since overrun is a standard action performed during movement, this means hydra can move only up to its normal speed (which is only slightly longer than its length - assuming it was not magicaly altered) while overruning.

And for additional hydra ideas - they also qualify for metabreath feats (see Draconomicon). Maximized breath from a twelve headed pyrohydra is some 216 damage. Or you could even go for wasting much more feats and start the combat with a heightened (DC increased by up to its CON modifier) enlarged (area of 40x10x10) maximized (216 dam) clinging (half damage in subsequent round) fire breath.

Too bad its intelligence is too low to qualify for an improved trip feat.

Triaxx
2008-10-09, 06:46 AM
The theory is that any melee fighters will close on the first round, so you're running them over then, and get behind them. Now they have to risk those two nasty AoO's to get back between it and the wizards.

It can only move that far yes, but it also has an additional 15' of reach. So it can attack the squishies who seem out of reach.

I keep forgetting that Power Attack is required for Improved Overrun, but the latter isn't really necessary. On the other hand, at CR, a Power Attacking Hydra is a very nasty thought.

On the other hand, the Hydra already has a +8 bonus against a standard adventurer, and +12 against Halflings and Gnomes.

Kol Korran
2008-10-09, 12:19 PM
Wow! the original thread discussing the various "remakes" i made to creatures never got this amount of talk (i'd love to hear your thoughts and reviews about them as well... link in my sig as i've said) thanks a bunch everyone!

Aslan Cross: i am specifically trying to make the Hydra a creature who can be interacted with in a more complex manner than just "a huge beast! lets kill it!" i have thoughts about making it a feature danger of an environment (such as i've made the stirge in my thread) but i'm more aiming for a beast who acquires intlleigence- i'd like to keep the two aspects- beast and intelligence in the same creautre.
on that matter Triaxx, i liked the hive mind idea, but i think it would be more fun, more interesting, more unique if the heads each retain their own personalities... so the adventurers will actually deal with a few personas/ a collectionb of personas instead of just "the hive mind". i have a few more ideas in mind there, but i'll keep them for the thread.
the basic idea for getting intellignece though is that the Hydra's mind/ brain is actually retained in it's body (or that could be part of it's magic, without going into too anatomical explenations). when a head is cut off, one of the two heads is exactly the same (the other one is just back up for fighting). even if a hydra was scarred and then burned, living a permenant scar, each time the head is cut a new one, an exact copy emerges to replace it. therefore- heads can gain intelligence through time (the mind attributing learned knowledge and experience to individual heads) and therefor some heads are more intelligent than others. my remark that the intliignece was gained by gaining heads was meant to be read as "gains intelligence with age" as to me the two terms meant the same...

as for the increasing of heads and size- i liked the idea of there being no limit Biffoniacus_Furiou, something like dragons, and the Hydra getting additional powers, abilities or characteristics (such as DR) with size... i have a few other ideas here, but again- i'll leave it be. one idea that i would like to hear your opinions about is the actual gaining of heads- do the heads just split at some age (if so, how long does this seperation takes? can the players meet a hydra who is still spliting heads?) do they grow from the body? my idea says that Hydras can have tow possible outcomes of mating- a new offspring (a long and aroudeos mating) or a new head for each (something more on the lines of a quicky, but demands the appropriate age). what do you think?

as to battle mechanics, and figures depending on the hydra number of heads... i think i'll give an AoO for each head, as well as a standard action for head (though some, like the leading head, might take actions for the entire hydra, such as the mentioned Overrun). and though the heads don't add modifiers for spot checks, just more checks (thanks for the distinction Triaxx) i think i would settle for a general bonus per head representing that some checks were high and some low (i think i would go for +1 per head, as they do not actively "aid another". if they do however, then i'll give +2 for about 80% of the heads, represnting those that succeeded)

loved the hydra as leader of lizardmen Triaxx. i never thought of them in that position, but then again i never thought of a hydra getting THAT intelligent (my top int score imagined was about 12-14). something to consider...

as to the battle tactics- Overrun is noted as powerfull tactic, though i'd stress that my aim isn't to create a TPK challange, just a challange. my request for tactics didn't aim for the most destructive one, just the ones you think would fit a Hydra. Overrun however fits it well, being a huge creature trying to maximize it's reach, and semi-invulnerable.

Snatch is realy befitting a hydra as well. duly noted.

sorry i didn't relate to everything everyone wrote- i read it all though and my thanks to everyone. one last note- i am not trying to adjuciate the proper CR, so don't expect any input from me on that. this isn't homebrew, but rather something a bit different (see link)

thanks again,
Kol.