OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[SoD]

Ooh dear...I sense an enchantment SLA coming up...

[Tundar]

Poor imp is gonna be torn into shreads. V is as pissed as I've ever seen him/her.

V really needs to relax some.

[The Hop Goblin]

And so, V becomes a recurring villian.

[Verosce]

Oh dear. I can't say I didn't see the possibility...but seeing one of my very favorite characters bail on the team is distressing, to say the least.

[SPoD]

And so, V becomes a recurring villian.

Or future cavalry for Haley's team, if she actually DOES find them.

[Ramorr]

I think V is going to be turned to the dark side.

Great comic!

[Dreamthiev]

I am curious what'll happen with the imp... But really, I wish the group would start merging back together instead of splitting into smaller groups.

[SoD]

Ooh, fun fact: the discussion thread for comic 599 (namely this thread) was posted at 1111 hours (11:11am)! Just thought I'd mention it. Lot's of 1's make me happy.

[thubby]

end=nigh? *runs for hills*

i imagine we are going to see a lot more of starshine in the near future.

i just want to know how they're all going to get back together.

[Gez]

V will find a secluded lair in which to finish the ritual of Lichdom.

Then, once transformed as an undead abomination, it will be able to work ceaselessly on achieving real ultimate power!


Or maybe not. But he looks about as alive as Michael Jackson.

[Dr. Simon]

Oooh. Could Qarr be "the wrong being"? (Goes to re-check the oracle's wording).

Edit: It's the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons. I sense a step closer to that prophecy becoming fulfilled, though.

[Edhelras]

Oh my - I think Elan just made a reference to the American presidential campaign? Sarah Palin and all the "gotcha" questions from Ms. Couric?

Real life intrudes...

[Devonix]

wow first time ever being here right after a comic post. Once again Thank you Giant. I'm so glad the guy in my Comic book store recomended the Dungeon Crawling Fools. for me to pick up. Yeah after Kobuto died I really expected the imp to work for V. but what about V's current familiar

[Salty]

Wow, V is changing fast. Qaar seems like he's going to be relevant to 600. Honestly, I can see plenty of negative effects of happening because of this.

[Falxo]

Nooo ! V ! Come back ! The Order needs ye you !

And now, I can't wait to see strip #600 :smallbiggrin:

[SolkaTruesilver]

I personnally think it's obvious what will happen of Qarr..

I mean, Blackwing left, right?

Can't wait for 600 too! but on the other hand... 500 was something of a disapointment...

[Eldariel]

Really, I'm fairly sure Qarr will be very much of an ex-Imp if he happens to as much as come within 100' of V...

[Graymayre]

Dun Dun Duuuuuuun!

[Yendor]

Well really, Durkon's been nearly useless lately. He's been too busy snarking at V to make any coherent plans. He really should have had Elan talk to V much earlier.

I don't think Haley will be too pleased to hear that V walked out on Elan, though.

[Salty]

Dun Dun Duuuuuuun!

Ha! LOL. Can't believe I didn't think of it.

[Crystalkestrel]

With all the loose ends that have been built up, I can only see the next comic as either the longest one yet or a repeat of 100 (and here I thought there would be something special for the 100th episode).

[Swashbuckler]

V-man, you're the goods. Or not-so-goods. It's all good, though.

Thank you, Giant, for giving your characters real & independent personalities. Talk about keeping the story interesting!

[SnowballMan]

I can't help but think that too many people are putting stock in the idea that the group will get back together or even that it's charter members will remain a part of it.

[Aurorax]

Aw man....we further breaking up the group?

[Nerd-o-rama]

I can't say I didn't see this coming, but I am still intrigued by the possibilities it represents.

And Elan should have gone with sharks from the get-go. They've been known to devour bodies whole.

[SPoD]

And Elan should have gone with sharks from the get-go. They've been known to devour bodies whole.

Ah, but Elan knows that Kubota's armor is down there. Sharks may devour whole bodies, but they rarely remove their equipment before doing so. :wink:

[FelixZ]

Wow. I mean... WOW. That's all one can say about the recent events...

Does this mean V will be getting replaced (with Hinjo? Please?)

[Lauren]

V seriously needs a nap.

[Thant]

Ultimate Arcane Power here I come! V sure wants it, no matter the cost:smalltongue: But Elan did surprised me a bit with his answer - "have a nice trip" (BURN!); that was a real mature decision.

[Ceaon]

Oooh. Could Qarr be "the wrong being"? (Goes to re-check the oracle's wording).

Edit: It's the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons. I sense a step closer to that prophecy becoming fulfilled, though.

Yep, I feel so too.

[Spiryt]

Whatever else is driving V that mad it's either:

- He's really bound to Roy and Haley (indeed it seemed so during the whole comic), but not much to anybody else.

- Roy and Haley are just excuse - so he can prove him/herself that (s)he can, I say CAN, find them, save the world and do this kind of stuff

Most possibly both, and few other things too.

[lord_khaine]

the big question is just now if the Order will get a chance to find another arcane caster to fill the hole V left.

[Rad]

Brilliant, just brilliant...
I guess this marks the end of the OotS as a group of adventurers and starts to consider them as characters of a novel though. This is a great but so not D&D anymore.

[Deepkicker]

What's Qarr up to? Is it possible that he'll possess V? Is that a possibility!?

[Spiryt]

the big question is just now if the Order will get a chance to find another arcane caster to fill the hole V left.

I think that Rad post answer's it nicely.

OotS is no absolutely no longer adventurer's pack, who "had to" had tank, arcane caster, striker und controler, or whatever.

Now they're just people who're acting... somehow.

[Kabarakh]

hmm... unexpected... but you know, wizards are unpredictable and easy to enrage...



for #600, I personally don't think that there will be much Quarr/V... I think it will be a big breakup between Sapphire Guard and the remainig OotS (or maybe just Elan, Durkon didn't do anything wrong...)

or at least there will be questions...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

:smallmad:
Really not happy with this. I've been reading the comic since ~halfway through the Azure City battle, and since then the group has spent more time apart than together(not a single comic in that period that had all 6 characters), and the party seems to only be worsening that. If I wanted to see old friends hate each other and go their separate ways, I'd move into my buddies' apartment. This comic worsened the trend, not improved it. I am really beginning to wonder whether I'll stick with the comic till the end. A lot depends on the next Haley arc. :smallfrown:

[dish]

Interesting possibilites. I think a break-up might actually be a good way to start moving forward. (And I'm excited to see what happens with Qarr.)

[TerrickTerran]

Things are getting much more interesting. Let's see where the Giant goes with this.

[Nerd-o-rama]

What's Qarr up to? Is it possible that he'll possess V? Is that a possibility!?Imps, or any Devil in the generic D&D rules, aren't so much about possessing people. In both D&D and the comic (which is resembling a D&D game less and less as noted above), I think it's most likely that Qarr will corrupt V through words, advice, and assistance, rather than outright control.

[Oslecamo]

Imps, or any Devil in the generic D&D rules, aren't so much about possessing people. In both D&D and the comic (which is resembling a D&D game less and less as noted above), I think it's most likely that Qarr will corrupt V through words, advice, and assistance, rather than outright control.

Imp:Come to the dark side, V, you know you want to....
V:I'm already there you idiot. So how many virgins I need to sacrifice to find Haley?
Imp:Oh, sorry. Well, for finding Haley you'll have to sacrifice...

[Wolfprint]

Oh man oh man oh man. This is getting exciting!

[Idless]

Ammagawd!

I can't believe what just happened!

As always, lately, I am anxious what will happen in the next page!

...Idless

[HOLEkevin]

Yeah! I'm liking this! I figure a 50% chance that Varsuvius will simply blast Qarr out of the sky, but that leaves a 50% of V staring villain-hood in the face.

Loved Elan basically saying "take a hike." That was great.

[ref]

Ans thus, Vaarsuvius completes her boomersification and is oficially an opposing force.

Elan has shown great deal of maturity. Played the same role as Durkon when the order meet Miko for the first time. "Durkon, do something!" "...I surrender".

OTOH, Wonder what Lien might find down there. Can't wait for 600.

[mlsq42]

:smallmad:
Really not happy with this. I've been reading the comic since ~halfway through the Azure City battle, and since then the group has spent more time apart than together(not a single comic in that period that had all 6 characters), and the party seems to only be worsening that. If I wanted to see old friends hate each other and go their separate ways, I'd move into my buddies' apartment. This comic worsened the trend, not improved it. I am really beginning to wonder whether I'll stick with the comic till the end. A lot depends on the next Haley arc. :smallfrown:

Well, please don't take this the wrong way, but all the previous, 6 in a Dungeon comics are archived for your viewing pleasure. I understand that this is a bad turn for all involved, but storytelling needs bad things. Otherwise it would be very boring and/or very short.

I mean, it's a kick in the fork no doubt about it, but it will (probably) get better later on.

*crosses fingers*

[dish]

Ans thus, Vaarsuvius completes her boomersification and is oficially an opposing force.


Vaarsuvius wants to find Hayley. And Roy. Different priorities, but not necessarily opposing. At least, not yet.

[Estelindis]

Oh dear... :smalleek:

This is kinda worrying. I was really hoping that V's slide would be averted somehow. :smallfrown:

Elan's lies to Hinjo were so much less competent and believable than the elaborate, all-covering ones that were flying around in the thread dedicated to what one might tell Hinjo... :smallbiggrin: That provided a smile in the midst of all the darkness. Well, that and the reference to the V gender debate. :smallwink:

[kreszantas]

Elan having to think on his feet (without V to assist him) got totally flustered, he told half of the truth just not the rest. Stress is getting to him you can tell.

[Zeebiedeebie]

I still wonder why Elan lied to Hinjo. he could have just told Hinjo that V did it, Hinjo asks "where's V?"
Elan says "V flew away."

[mlsq42]

Because Elan is still loyal to V. Hence why he's willing to let V go in the hopes they'll get this out of their system, he doesn't want to dob V in.

[Threeshades]

DAMN YOU RICH! Damn you and your cliffhangers! :smallmad:


Now I want to see the next one :smalleek: :smallsmile:


Since next strip is number 600 we might very well get another of the prophecies fulfilled.

MOAR! :smalleek:

[Laurentio II]

[Mr. Burns pose]Excellent![/Mr Burns pose]
I really, really, really enjoyed this page, for a whole bunch of reason.
The first, the story is probably taking a faster pace while allowing characters to grow into themselves. It requires writing ability. I miss the comedy, but it's worth it.
Second, it gives a conclusive answer to many threads and wild speculation. I lost some prevision, but still I'm relieved of a lot of questions.

:elan: Wait, wait, wait for once more page, just wait for once more page!

[Vulion]

Oh man, V...I thought Roy dying and the Order splitting would be bad enough but apparently it's gonna get a lot worse before it gets better.

[Blaznak]

Couldn't we all use a good night's trance? Seriously, very good strip. I really thought the interaction of the characters was excellent and I'm curious to see how V and the Imp get along. Good stuff!

[Totally Guy]

I foresee a joke about a 4E infernal pact warlock.

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

Good grief. V may or may not have one, but s/he's certainly turning into one. :smallannoyed:

[Prince_Rohan]

Bravo on the the in character use of the word "imbroglios." My teenage years were spent suffering a classical education and I still had to crack a dictionary on that one.

im·bro·glio [im-brohl-yoh] –noun, plural -glios.

1. a misunderstanding, disagreement, etc., of a complicated or bitter nature, as between persons or nations.
2. an intricate and perplexing state of affairs; a complicated or difficult situation.
3. a confused heap.

ps
Ultimate Power? Yeah, well it's in a doily (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html).

[Kokopelli Jones]

Elan didn't have to elaborate. It's a big ocean with lots of currents and critters in it. If there were a body, the most thorough search wouldn't guarantee finding it.

Then again, Elan intelligence and/or wisdom may be climbing, but they're still not his strong suit. And the needs of narrative may have some requirement for bringing in some stress between Elan and Hinjo.

[Massy]

And Elan should have gone with sharks from the get-go. They've been known to devour bodies whole.
I was thinking ill-tempered mutated seabass.

[Laurentio II]

I was thinking ill-tempered mutated seabass.
He could have told that the sea turned acid for some moment. More believable, you agree?

EDIT: ops! I turned Orc!

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh no. :smalleek:
I'm even more convinced the next strip will be Vaarsuvius getting ultimate power.

[Lord_Drayakir]

Woo! Go V! I actually do agree with the fact that the other OotS members that were with him on the ship weren't exactly helping to find Haley. Elan became Hinjo's bodyguard, while Durkon was basically the only cleric aboard the fleet.

I've always thought of V as the guy who has to make tough decisions, but unlike sappy BAD fantasy novels, he doesn't whine and get all angsty about it. Instead, like a real person in a position of power, he actually makes these decisions.

And that's why the Giant is an awesome storyteller.

As for Qarr... I think it's going to be that he tries to subvert V, but will fail miserably. V is still Neutral, and he still cares about Haley and Roy, and he'll know that working with an imp is never a good thing for mortal spellcasters.

[FMArthur]

This is gonna be hilarious. Lien will find Kubota's armor on the seafloor, and report that he got away again.

[neoseph7]

Red wizard needs sleep badly.

I sense an attempt at on the devil's part to charm V which will work because:

A) V is too tired to mentally fight back
+
B) Plot device Mr. Frodo. Plot device.

The real question is why Qarr wants to get on the ship. Does he not know Kubota is dead? While I do enjoy this story arc, I hope it doesn't spend much time on Qarr finding out.

[Kato]

Ooooooh, foreshadowing for 600 anyone? ^^' I'm sure the 'V's four words' thread will grow to 20 sites within the next days ^^'

Anyway, great comic again. But why didn't Elan say... er... Kubota got eaten by a giant shark. Or kraken. (Yay, movie references) Anyway, who needs a traitorous bastardy body anyway? It's not like he deserves a funeral or so.

[Raz_Fox]

:smalleek: Oh dear. Horrors...

I have a feeling that this is NOT going to end well for anyone involved. V is especially in danger - in V's weakened state V won't be able to really concentrate and realize that the little red devil isn't the best advisor in the world.

Now I can't wait for 600. Can't wait, can't wait, can't... :smalleek:

[factotum]

Oh no. :smalleek:
I'm even more convinced the next strip will be Vaarsuvius getting ultimate power.

It's been said before, but it bears repeating: there's no way V can obtain ultimate power anytime much before the end of the strip, because ultimate power implies he could defeat anyone--Xykon, Hinjo, Qaar, the entire rest of the OotS working together--without much effort. Unless, of course, he somehow gains ultimate arcane power and then loses it again almost instantly, and again, I can't see that happening right here and now...

[sarge081089]

What if v finds haley and tells her elan was cheating and didnt try to go find her? that would be sad and so would i.:smallfrown:

[Holammer]

Dun DUN DUUUUHN!
Best strip for ages and I'm not saying the others been bad!
Who would expect Qarr to be such a good sport even apologizing to his old poker buddy?

[SPoD]

It's been said before, but it bears repeating: there's no way V can obtain ultimate power anytime much before the end of the strip, because ultimate power implies he could defeat anyone--Xykon, Hinjo, Qaar, the entire rest of the OotS working together--without much effort.

This is assuming that V remains a protagonist. If V becomes an antagonist, the sky is the limit.

[brilliantlight]

V will find a secluded lair in which to finish the ritual of Lichdom.

Then, once transformed as an undead abomination, it will be able to work ceaselessly on achieving real ultimate power!


Or maybe not. But he looks about as alive as Michael Jackson.

Why would V become a lich? It would slow down her quest for ultimate arcane power.

[SoC175]

So, if the cloister wears off and V find Haley & Co. this will prove to her that her theory about Elan and Durkon being the factors interfering with her earlier attempts is correct and thus give her no reason to ever return to the group

[Daibhid C]

This is assuming that V remains a protagonist. If V becomes an antagonist, the sky is the limit.

Again, someone with "ultimate arcane power" can beat anyone. If V's still a good guy, Team Evil get turned into small lizards of some description, and it's all over. OotS won, yay!

If V becomes a bad guy with ultimate arcane power, it's the Order who may be facing lizarddom. Again it's all over, but a lot more tragically.

What may happen is that V gets ultimate arcane power and realises that (s)he doesn't actually know how (s)he wants to use it. Then it's up to the Order (probably Haley) to talk him/her down.

[Lydronk]

Wow, "dire half-dragon bone-eating saltwater werepiranhas"? That's a natural 20 on Craft(Improvised Quick Monster Generation)! :D

Yet another good comic, with a good ending!

[Laurentio II]

So, if the cloister wears off and V find Haley & Co. this will prove to her that her theory about Elan and Durkon being the factors interfering with her earlier attempts is correct and thus give her no reason to ever return to the group
Gosh! This will be a major plot element, for the fifty seconds it takes to Haley to dismiss the imbroglio! Or you base your prevision on a complete lack of communication?

No, wait, I support this theory. But just because I want Vaarsuvius go hyper, to see if he use the "Whooo! Who is the man baby? Who is the man?" line. This would close a very long issue!

[Daibhid C]

So, if the cloister wears off and V find Haley & Co. this will prove to her that her theory about Elan and Durkon being the factors interfering with her earlier attempts is correct and thus give her no reason to ever return to the group

Well, I suspect that Haley may want to rejoin Elan, which would leave V to choose between following, or going to all that effort to find Haley, and then just leave her.

(Even if V tells Haley about Therkla, I doubt she's going to take the word of an elf who looks like five miles of difficult terrain.)

[Starbuck_II]

As for Qarr... I think it's going to be that he tries to subvert V, but will fail miserably. V is still Neutral, and he still cares about Haley and Roy, and he'll know that working with an imp is never a good thing for mortal spellcasters.

Actually, even if V was evil she would still care about Haley: Evil does/can care about friends.

Maybe V will become a Fiend Binder from ToM.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Oooooo.... the plot thickens (or continues to thicken).

I wonder if Elan's (apparently unconvincing) lie will come back to bite him? And what nefarious plans does Qaar have for our poor addled elf?

I liked Elan kind of going full circle with his "It's probably for the best" line as well. Kind of similar to what he said when Kubota shuffled off the mortal coil. All in all another top notch strip.


This is gonna be hilarious. Lien will find Kubota's armor on the seafloor, and report that he got away again.

That would be a bit of a funny play on the old cliche - the one where a body isn't found so presumably they could still be alive (like Murdoc, from Macguyver). Of course we know he's dead, so does Elan and V, but everyone else could think he's out there, just waiting to return .

[Maxdibe]

I have to quote the "Dun DUN DUUUUHN!"

First impression: "Damn, V is going to be beaten up or maybe (s)he will become an anatagonist"
Second thought: "(S)he has a profecy, (s)he has to gain ultimate power, (s)he cannot die"
Third thought: "...when will be online the magnificient-20 panels long-full of explaining-plotness-incredible act by V-600th strip?"

[LuisDantas]

I probably shouldn't be surprised, but I still am a bit disappointed that Elan tried to cover up for V.

V, however, nearly made sense. He actually redeemed himself a bit in my eyes, which shows how disappointed in he I am.

I fear for the Order now. And for Hinjo.

[Lissou]

I really hope people aren't still thinking it's going to slow. Stuff is definitely happenning here (and not only Lien proving that V's still not Evil).

Go V! I can't say it's a bad decision, although I'm worried about the imp. Also, worried that Haley and Roy will find V, but not the other two or something. We'll have to see.

[Lira]

I've been wondering for some time if V would leave them and go off alone... but I still didn't expect it to happen.
600 should be good, this certainly has been building up for awhile.

EDIT: Awww, I just noticed the sad look on Durkon's face after V flies away. :smallfrown:

[Starknight]

I have said it before, someone needs to rock V to sleep/trance. Step one, Find a big rock.... Step 2, Hit V with big rock. Step 3, Run for the hills.

First rule of GM'ing: If the party splits up, giggle insanely.

Starknight

[pendell]

Hmm ... possibilities here. I can't say I'm thrilled with the fact that the party has split even further, but it's true to the characters and a plausible development.

I suspect there will be a satisfying payoff in the near- to mid-term future.


Y'know, for a bard, Elan's a terrible liar, isn't he? I mean, he was doing okay up to the point of the piranhas, but now he's just fabricating to such an extent no one of even moderate intelligence could possibly believe him.

Better answer:
Hinjo: "We'll go find the body".
Elan: "You do that."

And SHUT UP.

Come to think of it ... going back to the 'inspiring the troops' sequence of Azure City -- Elan doesn't actually seem to be very effective as a bard.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Saint Nil]

Well, we know how strip 600 will be important now.

[Laurentio II]

First rule of GM'ing: If the party splits up, giggle insanely.
Nice one, but not the first. The first RPG rule is "The GM is always right".
The first GM rule is "Players are always wrong"!

[The Tygre]

Fifty points for everybody who theorized a Vaarsuvius/Qarr tag-team! Have yourselves a cookie!

[Coldwind]

Aw man....we further breaking up the group?

it is hard to disagree.

roy is dead for over 150 strips, oots spliting up more, and with lesser funny and more aggresive dialogues in every strip. it seems it's now ex-oots, since all members are seperated, which is not fun in my point of view. and payoff wont come for the next 100 strips or so it seems..

it changed a lot from the strip #1, hope some nice differences will come with #600, like the old days of oots.

[Lord_Drayakir]

Actually, even if V was evil she would still care about Haley: Evil does/can care about friends.

Maybe V will become a Fiend Binder from ToM.


Yeah, that's a good point. I didn't know about a Fiend Binder demon, but whatever. It still doesn't seem likely that V will pick Quarr as his assistant/familiar, because he's too smart for that. On the other hand, Blackwing (who?) has been kinda useless, so maybe that.

[stevekgoodwin]

(paraphrased)Woo! Comic up at 1111 hours (11:11am)!

In your timezone only. It was 9.11pm in mine.

The chance of the comic being posted at 11:11 (somewhere) is much higher than 1 in 720 = 0.1% (let's assume 12 hour time).

There are a lot of "integer" timezones 25, I believe, and a bunch of "half" timezones. There is at least 1 crazy "quarter" timezone (in the middle of the Nullarbor Plain in Australia, if I hadn't just driven through it and seen the sign I wouldn't have believed it. Australian Central Western Standard Time” (ACWST), or GMT +8:45. http://www.howderfamily.com/blog/?p=104. I've lived in Australia for 37 years and never heard of it until last month).

Which means if Rich posts at x:11, x:41 in ANY hour it will be 11:11 somewhere in the world. Which is 24 chances in 720 (25 if you count ACWST).

Thus, ladies and gentlemen I present the odds for OOTS posting at 11:11 is in fact 3.5%.

Which means it should have occurred about 20 or 21 times already.

[Dacia Brabant]

*Cough* (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5011000#post5011000), heh. :smallwink:

This makes a lot more sense than the lich theory actually, which the current comic explodes ("Trancing is not biologically required for elves"), and it provides V a real agent who could probably deliver on promises of power...for a price.

I did think though that there would be a confrontation between V and the paladins to necessitate him leaving. Oh well, after all she's not an antagonist just yet, but yeah there was no way V would stick around and I'm not surprised Elan and Durkon got kicked to the curb.


It's been said before, but it bears repeating: there's no way V can obtain ultimate power anytime much before the end of the strip, because ultimate power implies he could defeat anyone--Xykon, Hinjo, Qaar, the entire rest of the OotS working together--without much effort. Unless, of course, he somehow gains ultimate arcane power and then loses it again almost instantly, and again, I can't see that happening right here and now...

I've said it before, I'll say it again: "You don't know the power of the Dark Side."

Or as his boss put it much more bluntly: "POWER!!....UNLIMITED POWER!"

[Starscream]

This is going to have...consequences. Can't wait for the next strip.

[Tom90deg]

Well well...Looks to be that V is suffering from just a titch of pride. Of course, that's how he's always acted, to be honest. He knows he's the most powerful person in the group, regardless of any evidence to the contrary. He can't contact Haley, but to be honest, that dos'nt matter. If someone told him that he couldn't have a cookie, then sealed them away, he would probaly have gone just as nuts to PROVE that he was the best. He has to be number one, no matter what, and any evidence that he is not can be safely ignored.

On another note, He is going to get a reaming from Haley for just leaving the boat.

[Woof]

Ugh, we're getting even more side-tracked with group split-ups instead of getting the gang back together? :/

[SteveMB]

Ultimate Arcane Power here I come! V sure wants it, no matter the cost:smalltongue: But Elan did surprised me a bit with his answer - "have a nice trip" (BURN!); that was a real mature decision.

Actually, it may be for the best -- in h** current state, Vaarsuvius is a danger to anyone around h**.... :smalleek:

[Laurentio II]

Actually, it may be for the best -- in h** current state, Vaarsuvius is a danger to anyone around h**.... :smalleek:
Seems more a "Have fun Vaarsuvius, in a place way away from Hinjo and his search for truth. I don't want to see my foster parents... ehm... friends to have a fight"

[DomaDoma]

V will find a secluded lair in which to finish the ritual of Lichdom.

Then, once transformed as an undead abomination, it will be able to work ceaselessly on achieving real ultimate power!


Or maybe not. But he looks about as alive as Michael Jackson.

Hah. I have maintained for a while that Michael Jackson has been making Horcruxes.

[AstralFire]

Good riddance. Now maybe they can get something done without that incompetent elf.

[Estovus]

it is hard to disagree.

roy is dead for over 150 strips, oots spliting up more, and with lesser funny and more aggresive dialogues in every strip. it seems it's now ex-oots, since all members are seperated, which is not fun in my point of view. and payoff wont come for the next 100 strips or so it seems..

it changed a lot from the strip #1, hope some nice differences will come with #600, like the old days of oots.

If you like comics where practically nothing changes from strip 1, you're probably better off reading... I don't know, some other webcomic (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/).

Here's what I think will happen:

Strip changes back to Haley and co., who are in deep trouble with the Thieves' guild. Things escalate, and when it seems all hope is lost, V appears and saves the day.

[AstralFire]

V will not be saving anyone's day, except maybe Qarr's.

[Estovus]

V will not be saving anyone's day, except maybe Qarr's.

Why? She's already made it clear that finding Haley is her top priority.

[AstralFire]

Why? She's already made it clear that finding Haley is her top priority.

http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/incompetence.jpg

That's why. It may be his top priority, but V is dumb as an awakened brick - he's the stereotypical fighter of the party. Assumes he should be in charge, no emotional intelligence, has no ability to lead, and his methodology involves hitting the thing harder again.

[Bayle]

The political reference was brilliant :) Well done giant, well done.

"Gotcha Questions" hahaha.

[Flashlight]

I like how Elan is developing from an idiot bard to an actually very cool character. As far as I recall, he used his bluff skill for the first time.

[Estovus]

That's why. It may be his top priority, but V is dumb as an awakened brick - he's the stereotypical fighter of the party. Assumes he should be in charge, no emotional intelligence, has no ability to lead, and his methodology involves hitting the thing harder again.

I'm going to assume you haven't read the entire comic if you think V is incompetent, as a wizard or otherwise. And even if she was anything like you describe, she'd still be able to research a spell that could get her to Haley eventually, at the speed of plot.

[The Glyphstone]

Funny comic, but if panel 6 of Elan/Hinjo is a subtle dig on the current US political situation, I have to say I'm disappointed with the Giant for the first time in many comics. Board ban aside, I come here to laugh and escape the real world, not be reminded of it.:smallfrown:

[Scutatus]

Ultimate Arcane Power here I come! V sure wants it, no matter the cost:smalltongue: But Elan did surprised me a bit with his answer - "have a nice trip" (BURN!); that was a real mature decision.

Actually I think it was very mature. V just committed cold blooded murder and threatened to do the same to Elan for the slimmest of reasons. V is making snap irrational judgements and backing them up with murderous power. She has become psychotically dangerous, but unlike Belkar V is beyond any means of control. In Elan's eye's V is, morally, now no better than Belkar - possibly even worse, but being far more powerful is too inherently dangerous to keep around.

I think Elan can see that V has fallen too far and has become unreachable. Nothing Elan can say will make a difference anyway and trying to stop her would only likely get Elan and Durkon killed. Maybe just maybe, it is better that V does leave, now she has fallen so far and become so irrationally uncontrollably dangerous.

Elan probably just saved his and Durkon's lives.

[Charmy]

I can see one good thing coming from all this..

The group will be getting Kubota's kick ass gear back! Woohoo!

There is no way Lien can miss heavy purple armor that'd sink like an anchor into the ocean floor during her body-search. :smallbiggrin:

I'd like to see Durkon slip into the stuff personally... although he'd probably have to dye it to fit dwarven achromatic tastes =/

And then we've got the boots, and possibly magic rings and amulets if they're not too small to find.

At the very least its 10s of thousands of gold worth of treasure towards the "True Resurrection Of Roy" fund. :smallcool:

[Spiryt]

That's why. It may be his top priority, but V is dumb as an awakened brick - he's the stereotypical fighter of the party. Assumes he should be in charge, no emotional intelligence, has no ability to lead, and his methodology involves hitting the thing harder again.

Meh. I wouldn't put it that way...

But indeed, despite his/her supreme intelligence V tends to be indeed dumb as brick sometimes. And combined with complete delusion, it won't bring anything good.

[AstralFire]

I'm going to assume you haven't read the entire comic if you think V is incompetent, as a wizard or otherwise.

Incompetency and incapability are two different issues. V is capable, but he's been failing for a while now, depending on sheer luck and determination to get him through. See: Pit Fiend Fight.

He's intelligent, but his relatively low Wisdom score is fairly obvious repeatedly (Iron Mage is a good example!) and it's been thrown into sharp note on the boat.


And even if she was anything like you describe, she'd still be able to research a spell that could get her to Haley eventually, at the speed of plot.

Well after Haley/Celia have things more or less wrapped up, I'm certain, and then he can burden THEIR group instead of Hinjo.

[Azazel]

Perfect. Now we'll have a few more alignment discussions of action vs intent.
Sadly, V transforming into an undead skeletal mage would be the ultimate finger to the debates on V's gender since there will be nothing left to determine it by unless you're into analysing cheek and pelvic bones.
Few things are as gender ambigous as a stick figure skeleton...

[silvadel]

Hmm -- Elan said -- have a nice trip -- after the prior thing it kind of reminds me of Coneheads...

When we take over the world you will be on the protected roles and come to no harm.

I mean if Haley were to end up dead and V were to find that out -- especially if it was fresh(got here just a little too late due to the bumblings of Hinjo and friends) I could REALLY see eVil.

[randomnondescri]

Well, Kubata's armor is probably down there; might be interesting to see what happens if its found.

Also, I don't think the "gotcha" reference is specific to Palin - she's hardly the first person to accuse the media of playing gotcha....

[Werekat]

*crosses fingers and hopes for the encounter between Vaarsuvius and Quarr to end in some sort of a farce - like V not noticing the imp for tiredness, or whatever*

Because there are things in the wizard's handbooks which are written in the blood of utter fools, and dealing with devils is one of them.

*is also kind of hoping that V is finally going to have a breakdown, somewhere no one can see the elf - sometimes these things can heal*

Though I doubt it, really - sometimes having too much willpower and perseverance is deadly.

[Estovus]

Incompetency and incapability are two different issues. V is capable, but he's been failing for a while now, depending on sheer luck and determination to get him through. See: Pit Fiend Fight.
What, you mean the Pit Fiend that she completely and utterly defeated? I think she'd probably worked out the risks of her plan. She has only been failing at finding Haley, and that's been because of the Cloister spell.


Well after Haley/Celia have things more or less wrapped up, I'm certain, and then he can burden THEIR group instead of Hinjo.
...Sure, why not.

[AstralFire]

What, you mean the Pit Fiend that she completely and utterly defeated?

You misplaced your descriptors there - you mean barely defeated. The chance that all of those spells worked on a pit fiend of that power is fairly astronomical between saves, SR, and Prismatic Spray's inherent randomness. There's luck in strategy, and then there's sheer dumb luck.


She has only been failing at finding Haley, and that's been because of the Cloister spell.

What's causing it is irrelevant. Vaarsuvius could have sped along every single issue they've had - Control Weather and Gust of Wind are two obvious RAW ways to speed up a bunch of sailboats, and he could have easily researched something more specifically applicable - and thus had thousands of classed NPCs and half of a party to back him up with whatever alternative routes they decided to take. Instead, he's futilely throwing himself up against a magical wall out of sheer bloodymindedness. The incompetence isn't that he has failed to find Haley, the incompetence is how much more he could be doing to save the damn world and he's frankly done the least on that front for how much he seems to enjoy criticizing the rest about it.

[Somber Requiem]

Well this is something I didn't predict. V on his own with an imp around isn't good. Because the imp isn't going to temp with 'come over to the dark side'. He's not even going to tempt with power. "Hey, I can see you're powerful... look at what you did to my poker bud... why you can do anything... oh? You're doing research... huh... well I'd be glad to help."

I feel like I'm missing a page or two, though. I don't know WHY V is so enamored of Haley and Roy and not Durkon and Elan. Forcing Elan and Durkon to leave would be something I could expect. But going on his own and abandoning two members of the stick to whatever fate is another.

Anywho... upcoming splash page!

[silvadel]

I wonder what Roy would do if he were offered true ressurection from an evil unknown source anyway?

[esmerelder]

Oh, man, Haley's going to deck V. when (if!) they meet up with each other again and she finds out what ze's done. And then V. will lose zir temper with Haley, and I don't even want to think about what will happen next... :(

*sobs* This is worse than Season Six of Buffy!

[Estovus]

You misplaced your descriptors there - you mean barely defeated. The chance that all of those spells worked on a pit fiend of that power is fairly astronomical between saves, SR, and Prismatic Spray's inherent randomness. There's luck in strategy, and then there's sheer dumb luck.
I'll agree with you that she was reckless. Recklessness isn't incompetence.



What's causing it is irrelevant. Vaarsuvius could have sped along every single issue they've had, and thus had thousands of classed NPCs and half of a party to back him up with whatever alternative routes they decided to take. Instead, he's futilely throwing himself up against a magical wall out of sheer bloodymindedness. The incompetence isn't that he has failed to find Haley, the incompetence is how much more he could be doing to save the damn world and he's frankly done the least on that front for how much he seems to enjoy criticizing the rest about it.
But she doesn't care about the world. She cares about Haley. And so she's doing all she can to find Haley.

[Neopolis]

I like how Elan is developing from an idiot bard to an actually very cool character. As far as I recall, he used his bluff skill for the first time.
Not really.:smallamused: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html)

[AstralFire]

I feel like I'm missing a page or two, though. I don't know WHY V is so enamored of Haley and Roy and not Durkon and Elan.

Haley helped V out with no urging, and was the first person on-screen to do so. (Order of the PCs.) Also, Roy and Haley both probably (certainly in Roy's case) have higher Int scores than Durkon and much higher than Elan, which appears to be half of all that V respects.

[kukn]

Allowing one of the main characters of a story to twist completely out the protagonist group is, for me, a sign of great literature. That is if the character has good reason to change thus.

I didn't think V would leave, but it works with his character perfectly.

[malakim2099]

Oooh. Could Qarr be "the wrong being"? (Goes to re-check the oracle's wording).

Edit: It's the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons. I sense a step closer to that prophecy becoming fulfilled, though.

Actually, I think we already had the four words (Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.) at the right time (before a would-be trial) to the right being (Kubota) for the wrong reasons (it was not a good act, nor was it a lawful one, and the paladins would not tolerate it).

And Elan definitely has some Wisdom boosts too, considering that trying to persuade V to stick around (which he could do with his Charisma, perhaps) would probably force a conflict between Hinjo and V. And Hinjo and his paladins would lose, badly, which would screw over the remnants of Azure City no small amount. Elan knows this, so lets him go.

Think Qarr might know about the gates, since Sabine told her masters, and maybe they have the same bosses? Or that he heard about the gates through the Infernal Grapevine? :smallamused:

I think Blackwing (?) the Raven is gonna become bird chow, though... familiar upgrade!

Apologies if this was covered already, I didn't skim the other pages.

[pendell]

Funny comic, but if panel 6 of Elan/Hinjo is a subtle dig on the current US political situation, I have to say I'm disappointed with the Giant for the first time in many comics. Board ban aside, I come here to laugh and escape the real world, not be reminded of it.:smallfrown:

I don't think he was.

I am a political junkie. I read all kinds of political things. And the idea that it might be a shot at the current political situation never even crossed my mind.

Timeless storytelling often has echoes in all kinds of situations. Example: Tolkien, in LOTR, was accused of making an allegory of WWII. He indignantly denied this in the forward of later editions, explaining that if he *had* meant it as allegory someone would have taken the ring for his own, Sauron would have been enslaved rather than destroyed, and Saruman would have succeeded in making his own ring, descending into a sort of cold war between the new ruler of the Ring and Saruman. A world in which hobbits and the shire would have been quickly exterminated.

As Tolkien said then, I think we're confusing *applicability* with *allegory*. The difference is that applicability is something the reader reads in based on their own preconceptions, while allegory is the explicit intent of the author. Narnia is allegory. LOTR is not.

And I think the same thing with this strip. If we see political application in the strip, it's because we're politically-minded creatures, not because the Giant intended it to be a political statement of any kind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[AstralFire]

I'll agree with you that she was reckless. Recklessness isn't incompetence.

If you pulled something relying on those odds anywhere, even if you succeeded, and it wasn't your only viable option - say hello to the end of your career. It's incompetence.


But she doesn't care about the world. She cares about Haley. And so she's doing all she can to find Haley.

He doesn't care about the world he lives in?

And: "http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html"

"Now, as stated, I would like us to refocus our efforts on saving the world."

[pendell]

BTW, I just re-read the strip for a third time and I still don't see a shred of subtle commentary on current events , political or otherwise.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Frank]

Interesting...

Elan's right back to where Roy started from.

-Frank

[Mojique]

:smallmad:
I've been reading the comic since ~halfway through the Azure City battle, and since then the group has spent more time apart than together(not a single comic in that period that had all 6 characters)
Last one was #424.

[Estovus]

If you pulled something relying on those odds anywhere, even if you succeeded, and it wasn't your only viable option - say hello to the end of your career. It's incompetence.
It's not. It's recklessness, which was probably necessary to defeat the pit fiend.




He doesn't care about the world he lives in?

And: "http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html"

"Now, as stated, I would like us to refocus our efforts on saving the world."
Saving the world means finding Haley and re-uniting the Order, first and foremost. As for the Azurites, and generally most people, for that matter, V doesn't give two ****s.

[AstralFire]

It's not. It's recklessness, which was probably necessary to defeat the pit fiend.

Sitting down and cooperating for 6 seconds would have probably allowed the Pit Fiend to go down a lot easier. 2 Paladins against Demons, Cleric in general, a ninja, and a fairly-competent-in-a-fight Bard, all of about 12th level. If the attacks could have been coordinated, you betcha that recklessness wasn't necessary at all, that's a pretty killer team.


Saving the world means finding Haley and re-uniting the Order, first and foremost. As for the Azurites, and generally most people, for that matter, V doesn't give two ****s.

And that would be part of why he is incompetent, because he doesn't appreciate the power of help.

[Laurentio II]

If you pulled something relying on those odds anywhere, even if you succeeded, and it wasn't your only viable option - say hello to the end of your career. It's incompetence.
While the other viable option was? No sarcasm, I lost it.

[AstralFire]

While the other viable option was? No sarcasm, I lost it.

Sitting down and thinking for a half-round about how to coordinate as a team rather than going about it slapdash-crazy with a Cleric trying to keep up with a handful of people running around and eating hits while the Wizard just flies about willy-nilly doing whatever he wants. V actively rejected any prospect of coordination up until right before the very end. And for what? His vanity, the same idiocy that got Roy killed, only Roy learned from it to some degree. Clerics are powerful. Hinjo was able to lay down some hurt. Imagine what more could have been done if they'd all been fighting coherently from the start.

I DM. When my party of PCs coordinate, I have to work very hard to give them a challenge, and they're not particularly optimized. When they just go about it as-they-may, they are extremely easy to knockdown one at a time as the group's strength suddenly rapidly dwindles.

[M84]

Heyall,

Like others on this forum, I'm a little depressed by the further splintering of the OotS. This is clearly one of those situations where things are going to get worse before they get better.

The silver lining in this cloud for me has been Elan's character development. The refugee arc shows that while Elan is still a rather goofy fellow, he's slowly but surely maturing. He's honestly trying to step up to the plate with the party split up and Roy dead.

Given that he's had to deal with being separated from his girlfriend, having to reject another girl he grew to be fond of in the short time he knew her WHILE SHE WAS DYING because of his commitment to Haley, dealing with a Smug Snake evil aristocrat's schemes, and trying (and failing it would seem) to avert his comrade V's SoD; he's doing a pretty good job. Especially for someone who's been a Spoony Bard for nearly his entire life. And that's not getting into the whole Evil Twin thing.

On a side note, I really like Qarr as a villain. Assuming V doesn't just banish him back to the Nine Hells (or wherever devils go these days when banished), I predict the four words he will say to Qarr may go along these lines:

"Become my familiar, Qarr."

[Estovus]

Sitting down and cooperating for 6 seconds would have probably allowed the Pit Fiend to go down a lot easier. 2 Paladins against Demons, Cleric in general, a ninja, and a fairly-competent-in-a-fight Bard, all of about 12th level. If the attacks could have been coordinated, you betcha that recklessness wasn't necessary at all, that's a pretty killer team.
Six seconds is a round. Are you suggesting they spend an entire round discussing?
Now, personally, I'm pretty sure they're at least about 15th level, but even so, they're in deep **** with a Pit Fiend. The CR on a Pit Fiend is 20, so the only way they were going to defeat it was with recklessness and/or sheer dumb luck.



And that would be part of why he is incompetent, because he doesn't appreciate the power of help.
She understands the game mechanics. She understands that the only way to defeat Xykon is with a small, high-level adventuring party, such as the Order of the Stick.

[AstralFire]

Six seconds is a round. Are you suggesting they spend an entire round discussing?
Now, personally, I'm pretty sure they're at least about 15th level, but even so, they're in deep **** with a Pit Fiend. The CR on a Pit Fiend is 20, so the only way they were going to defeat it was with recklessness and/or sheer dumb luck.

Talking is a free action, and I do believe that they have actually done a wink-and-nod regarding that in this very strip. Also no reason you can't talk while running to regroup, but you can talk on the offense.

And no, it wasn't. I believe that they're around 13 or 14th level (so a little lower than you think) but the CR rules expect you to be able to take CRs of your level +4, and frankly the CR rules tend to be vastly underrated by that point for melee only parties, and vastly over for parties with a caster or two. They had two.


She understands the game mechanics. She understands that the only way to defeat Xykon is with a small, high-level adventuring party, such as the Order of the Stick.

That's genre convention, not a game mechanic, that's Elan's specialty. He's convinced that it's true, that doesn't make it so.

[amuletts]

Good grief. V may or may not have one, but s/he's certainly turning into one. :smallannoyed: LOL!

Personally I think Quarr will 'tempt' V, leading him further along the path of evil. I don't think Elan's decision to let him go was a good one, though I understand it. If V. was to have any chance of coming back from his dark place he needs his friends (whether he wants them or not) to be a constant moral compass. As a magic user he has high intelligence, but his wisdom is questionable.

However, being evil from now on doesn't mean he has to be a villain (at least not in the black and white sense) to the group. His goals are still going, more or less, in the same direction. My feeling is that when their paths cross he may do things to help them but use methods they find horrifying. It'll be a nice moral quandary. He's their friend and he's helping them, they NEED him, yet they *really* should do something about the evil acts - shouldn't they? Necessity is great for making characters of opposing alignments work together.

I think the comic right now is good (due to V), but it has been on a bit of a downer since Roy died. The players are stuck in sub-quests trying to get back to the main plot.

[McMurphy]

Panel 10 is the best document of V's exhaustion yet, I think. :D

[SoC175]

Gosh! This will be a major plot element, for the fifty seconds it takes to Haley to dismiss the imbroglio! Or you base your prevision on a complete lack of communication?
If V wants to listen to her, wants to believe her.

Well, I suspect that Haley may want to rejoin Elan, which would leave V to choose between following, or going to all that effort to find Haley, and then just leave her.
I don't believe she does this out of special loyality to Haley, but just for her own ego. As soon as she proves that she's capable of finding Haley it becomes unimportant what happens with Haley afterwards

[SPoD]

Funny comic, but if panel 6 of Elan/Hinjo is a subtle dig on the current US political situation, I have to say I'm disappointed with the Giant for the first time in many comics. Board ban aside, I come here to laugh and escape the real world, not be reminded of it.:smallfrown:

Reference does not equal commentary. It's a phrase that is in the news these days, yes, which is why it's in the joke. It is not any sort of "dig" or whatever, the situations are completely different. It's roughly the same as when Haley had a "wardrobe malfunction" joke the day after the Janet Jackson / Super Bowl incident.

[Estovus]

Talking is a free action, and I do believe that they have actually done a wink-and-nod regarding that in this very strip. Also no reason you can't talk while running to regroup, but you can talk on the offense.
Talking is a free action, but at the DM's discretion, it can be a move action, a standard action, or even a full-round action. Discussing strategy is definitely a full-round action.


And no, it wasn't. I believe that they're around 13 or 14th level (so a little lower than you think) but the CR rules expect you to be able to take CRs of your level +4, and frankly the CR rules tend to be vastly underrated by that point for melee only parties, and vastly over for parties with a caster or two. They had two.
Nevertheless, it's a miracle none of the important characters died. One that they should thank V for.



That's genre convention, not a game mechanic, that's Elan's specialty. He's convinced that it's true, that doesn't make it so.
But it is true. Did you see any ordinary frontline soldiers killing Xykon's lookalikes? Or any other important enemy characters, for that matter? No, the PCs did. As always (and this is a genre convention, as you say), the redshirts are simply there to add spice to the plot. In reality, all that matters is the PCs.

[AstralFire]

Talking is a free action, but at the DM's discretion, it can be a move action, a standard action, or even a full-round action. Discussing strategy is definitely a full-round action.

Lots of things are at the DM's discretion. I would prefer to avoid throwing things randomly into the 'discretion' category.


Nevertheless, it's a miracle none of the important characters died. One that they should thank V for.

I'll half agree there. Durkon spent time - if your previous use of discretion is accurate - trying to talk strategy with Vaarsuvius. If V wasn't there, then they might not have wasted that time.


But it is true. Did you see any ordinary frontline soldiers killing Xykon's lookalikes? Or any other important enemy characters, for that matter? No, the PCs did. As always (and this is a genre convention, as you say), the redshirts are simply there to add spice to the plot. In reality, all that matters is the PCs.

Are you suggesting that Xykon and Redcloak wouldn't be any less of a threat without the army at their back? I find that highly improbable. So why is the OotS not helped at all by an army at theirs?

[Laurentio II]

Sitting down and thinking for a half-round about how to coordinate as a team rather than going about it slapdash-crazy with a Cleric trying to keep up with a handful of people running around and eating hits while the Wizard just flies about willy-nilly doing whatever he wants.
Ok, it's right on a general issue, but to the specific situation? I agree that a coordinated team is better that a bunch of individuals, but to achieve even a little synergy, there must be compatibility. You can't put oranges into the fuel tank to booster a car.

What would have been a viable strategy? The request of elevation from Hinjo made no sense from the begin. Hitting people on the chest or on a limb has the same effect in D&D. I suppose that it was just a way to use the Dwarven Headpult gag.

And anyway, is Vaarsuvius SUPPOSED to be able to raise Hinjo? If yes, is he able to do several time, that is enough time to let Hinjo kill the fiend, before the fiend realize that killing Vaarsuvius is the easiest strategy?

Actually, asking to Durkon to lower the fiend's saves was sensible. And worked. A plan that gives 2/8 chance to end the combat in a single round seems good to me, compared to one that gives chances to end it in, say, four rounds, losing the wizard life. Especially if you happen to be the wizard.

[AstralFire]

What would have been a viable strategy? The request of elevation from Hinjo made no sense from the begin. Hitting people on the chest or on a limb has the same effect in D&D. I suppose that it was just a way to use the Dwarven Headpult gag.

Author convention, the same as how Belkar one-shots things he couldn't possibly one-shot. Given that Hinjo is fairly intelligent and Durkon isn't an idiot either, I'd say it was necessary in this case to do damage.


And anyway, is Vaarsuvius SUPPOSED to be able to raise Hinjo? If yes, is he able to do several time, that is enough time to let Hinjo kill the fiend, before the fiend realize that killing Vaarsuvius is the easiest strategy?

Fly spell. "Oh, hey, Hinjo can fly now and doesn't need to waste time making leaping one-attack charges, not to mention no longer being bunched up on the ground for the fiend's AoE blasts!" Enlarge person, any number of buffs or debuffs to make the front-liner a bigger and bigger threat so V can blast with less notice from a farther distance. V's spellbook isn't ALL direct damage, though the likely low amount of buffs he carries and his strategem in general also point towards his self-centeredness screwing over his competency.


Actually, asking to Durkon to lower the fiend's saves was sensible.

That it was, though it took him longer than it had to. If he'd said that at the beginning, that could have been done two or three rounds earlier for all we know.

[garylian]

This was a nice setup strip for 600 and beyond.

Now, lets get back to completely dissecting a battle that took place a few strips ago!

[AstralFire]

This was a nice setup strip for 600 and beyond.

Now, lets get back to completely dissecting a battle that took place a few strips ago!

My thoughts on 599 were stated earlier. :smallamused: Good riddance.

[Zurpl]

Most frequent thought while reading this comic:

"I should've kept that dictionary tab open."

[B.I.T.T.]

Good comic.

"Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." That's four words, isn't it?

[Estovus]

Lots of things are at the DM's discretion. I would prefer to avoid throwing things randomly into the 'discretion' category.
You'd have to be insane if, as a DM, you wouldn't make discussing strategy in the middle of a battle cost actions.



I'll half agree there. Durkon spent time - if your previous use of discretion is accurate - trying to talk strategy with Vaarsuvius. If V wasn't there, then they might not have wasted that time.
Are you suggesting they could've won the battle more easily without V? Because if so, I think your bias against her is clouding your judgement more than just a little bit.



Are you suggesting that Xykon and Redcloak wouldn't be any less of a threat without the army at their back? I find that highly improbable. So why is the OotS not helped at all by an army at theirs?
In theory, yes. We'll never know, because they do have an army, but insofar as they're the main driving force of the main characters, they would be no less of a threat.

[chiasaur11]

As some have said, there is NO WAY this bodes well for anyone.

Also, Dire half-dragon bone-eating saltwater werepiranahs must be added to more campaigns.

[teratorn]

Tinfoil hat on. I don't see this related to V's 4 words, but to he oracle's pre-murder words:

Belkar's illusion was in part responsible for V losing patience with Elan. If the imp manages to somehow finish off V, then this would fit with the other far-fetched theories the Oracle was talking about.

[Laurentio II]

That it was, though it took him longer than it had to. If he'd said that at the beginning, that could have been done two or three rounds earlier for all we know.
For all we know, the Chromatic Spray was a last second plan when Vaarsuvius noticed that direct damage from his part was not going to work. So, two or three round earlier there was no reason to ask for.

About the general issue, I understood your point, but I don't agree. Vaarsuvius already showed to be more efficient and competent that the average of the team, and most of the PNG. His apex was during the siege war, and the fact that he is currently lacking both in social skills and in strategy has been indicated as a consequence of not meditating for a long period. That is not a competence issue, as the motivation is obsession.

For the purpose of the discussion (that could be considered done, on my part), I'm ignoring all the comic and novel convention, that would made trash of both mine and your arguments.

[Pronounceable]

This is the best that could've happened. Anything else would force a confrontation between Hinjo and V.

And V's almost right. Durkon and especially Elan has done nothing (admittedly there's not much Elan can do, but Durkon could've helped V with some divine spells) about finding Roy and Haley. They seem to have dedicated themselves to the woes of one nation while the whole world is in danger. Of course, blaming Durkon and Elan for his failure is quite irrational.

As for predictions: Next strip will have Roy looking down on the world and commenting on various subplots. Can Roy spy on Xykon and RC? I don't see why not.

Idle speculation: Would it be too outlandish if, when he finds Haley and co. V (with his hatred of such cliches) manages to remove Haley's nemesis (Krystal, was it?) as well? It'd have a certain symmetry...


And that imp? He's going back to hell in an ashtray...

[AKA_Bait]

You'd have to be insane if, as a DM, you wouldn't make discussing strategy in the middle of a battle cost actions.

Why's that? Sometimes you have players who really like having a quick back and forth midbattle. It makes the game more enjoyable for them. Fun>Realistic Battle timing.

[mroozee]

I don't think this has anything to do with the Oracle's prophecy for V.

[Lance]

Well, there goes my theory...

I thought V was acting strange because the imp had gotten to him/her first and cast a suggestion that nothing should get in the way of V's studies, not even "friends".

[Traker]

Here is what I think will happen.
So let's say that V is level: 16 her/his will save(with only its class bonus) would have a plus 10 to its will save. so I do not think that V will be under the control of the imp if he casts suggestion.

[Neopolis]

Last one was #424.
I guess this is 2 pages, but it's still one comic! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0483.html)

[Yoyoyo]

Not sure which is better, Dire half-dragon bone eating saltwater warepiranhas or the Vaporizing Flu. :smallsmile:

Elan's "Have a nice trip" line rules. He may very well have been ready to ask V to leave before V so nicely volunteered. Although, I'm bummed s/he's gone. With Belkar down and V leaving, all the loose cannons are jumping ship (sorry about the pun).

[Belkster11]

Well, there goes my theory...

I thought V was acting strange because the imp had gotten to him/her first and cast a suggestion that nothing should get in the way of V's studies, not even "friends".

If V was under a suggestion spell, his eyes would be yellow and/or swirly.

[orcmonk89]

I bet the OotS' DM must be pissed with his gaming group right now.

DM: What, so you want to split the party even more?
V's Player: Clearly.
DM: *mutters curse words under his breath, graps graph paper and begins to sketch new, barren, spell-resistant-monster-filled island.* You asked for it...

[RMS Oceanic]

I feel like I'm missing a page or two, though. I don't know WHY V is so enamored of Haley and Roy and not Durkon and Elan.

Well, (s)he was always friendly with Haley, and respected Roy's intelligence. However, I would like to reiterate that these are NOT h** primary motivation to find them. H** primary motivation is that h** magic cannot do it, so (s)he will throw bigger magical sledgehammers at the problem until it breaks. This goes back to what Roy said to Eugene in Origin of PCs:
Roy: A big problem that arcane spellcasters have is their utter faith in magic.
Eugene: Poppycock! Magic is supremely powerful and has no weakness ever at all!
V essentially subscribes to Eugene's POV, and will not be convinced h** magic cannot overcome an obstacle. You glimpse this in 504 or so, where V laments his being unable to beat back the Hobgoblins, because (s)he didn't have enough magical power. (S)he can't (or maybe won't) realise that magic is not all powerful, or maybe Azure City didn't need a blaster mage, but somebody who thinks outside the box a little. I know (s)he can't cast cloudkill, what with it being conjuration and all, but if (s)he cast something like Wall of Fire, then Permanency'd it, that would have kept back 90% of the hobgoblins and zombies.

And if we recall Start of Darkness, there's another character who believes that magical force is the best answer to a problem:
Xykon. "You can keep your finely tuned watch. Give me the sledgehammer to the face anyday."

[Yoyoyo]

I bet the OotS' DM must be pissed with his gaming group right now.

DM: What, so you want to split the party even more?
V's Player: Clearly.
DM: *mutters curse words under his breath, graps graph paper and begins to sketch new, barren, spell-resistant-monster-filled island.* You asked for it...

Like it. Or, perhaps, the DM asking V's player is he's sure he wants to be that far away from the Cleric. Because, you know, anything can happen [evil laugh].

[innk]

And so another party split.
Awesome really.

Wait a minute, what was this strip all about again?

Ah nevermind.....

[Raiser Blade]

Heyyyy


You got politics in my OotS

[Person_Man]

Crud.

I, for one, hope that this is just a big buildup to getting the band back together. Having 4+ parallel indeterminate story lines is starting to make OoTS seem like Heroes.

Just my 2 cp.

[derfenrirwolv]

Funny comic, but if panel 6 of Elan/Hinjo is a subtle dig on the current US political situation, I have to say I'm disappointed with the Giant for the first time in many comics. Board ban aside, I come here to laugh and escape the real world, not be reminded of it

Its not exactly the first time the real world has made it into the comics.



What i think will happen next...


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html


A LN character can have a LE familiar i beleive.

Qarr "I see you are currently without a familiar. Perhaps i could join you, and tempt you slowly to the darkskide, mayby help you find that redhead you wanted. It will be realy cool! I can sit on your shoulder and win arguments with your concious and stuff!

V: I have no idea of what you're speaking. My familiar is right here and has been all along *pop* Lightning bolt.

[Mr. Scaly]

And the Order of the Stick bites the dust! The next time Nale comes for over the top revenge he might just win.

Seriously, I think the comic is heading for a pretty dark ending the way it's going. The heroes are scattered and at each other's throats, one is dead, another left in a fit of rage and a third is useless/going to die soon anyway. All of which plays a happy song for Xykon's team.

[AstralFire]

You'd have to be insane if, as a DM, you wouldn't make discussing strategy in the middle of a battle cost actions.

I suppose I'm insane. I don't make it cost anything, that would make rounds interminably boring in many cases.


Are you suggesting they could've won the battle more easily without V? Because if so, I think your bias against her is clouding your judgement more than just a little bit.

Yes, I am, and no it is not. I have no bias against V, I actually rather like the character. However, I'd like V to wake up and smell the roses and I'm rather jaded towards anything 'cool' that he has done, so he really hasn't garnered any points from me on that front since AC.


In theory, yes. We'll never know, because they do have an army, but insofar as they're the main driving force of the main characters, they would be no less of a threat.

So what is the logic in going "well, might as well let the army die!"

[DrivinAllNight]

This strip to me drives home the fact that this will be a long long comic, and while it may be divided in what it shows and who's story line is being played out at one time, it is still a great story in the long run, since many books of just words will have varied subplots, especially with so many main characters to play with here, we should just be happy there is only 3 different branches going so far. And maybe :vaarsuvius: will be effective by itself, maybe not, but it will be fun to see how they are all doing as they progress. And if it seems disjointed it is only because it takes a week to see three pages of the story. If you could go back and read the beginning to end, it wouldn't seem so disconnected.
Just my 2Gp :smallsmile:

[DSCrankshaw]

Fifty points for everybody who theorized a Vaarsuvius/Qarr tag-team! Have yourselves a cookie!

Thanks. I'll do that.

[joela]

Nice. Will 600 have V. joining the forces of evil? Or get Elan and Durkon kicked off the boat once the pallies discover Elan's lie?

LUV IT.

[kerravon]

Now what???? I swear, every time I get an update, it makes me all the more anxious for the NEXT update! ARRRGGGGG!!! Darn my impatience!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Oh SNAP.

This is one of the best plot-moving strips yet.

[Morgan Wick]

Couple of interesting points, other than V potentially effectively and unilaterally (well, with some help from Elan) kicking Elan and Durkon out of the Order of the Stick (which I'm sure Haley will overrule unless V convinces her Elan cheated on her):

"And here I thought the hardest part would be getting back aboard a ship with two paladins."

Hmm... what was Qarr's real plan, and how is it now served by going after V...?

[ss49]

This webcomic is reminding me more and more of the WoT. And not in a good way.

Also; just because the koboracle told V how to obtain UAP, doesn't mean V will. Haley made the conscious choice to "not look the gift horse in the mouth"; if she had acted normally she would still be speaking Consonant. V could let the opportunity pass. Maybe.

[AstralFire]

Other way around. Durkon can claim rank over V since he was one of the two founding members and even without Elan in the mix, I believe Roy is closer to Durkon by far. He has abandoned the order, not kicked them out.

Personally, I think this is leading to an Order of the Scribble-like team full dismembering, only because they're the title characters, most of the team will eventually be reassembled. Durkon and Elan might separate out of pure utility, Celia and Haley might indeed just get sick of Belkar and leave him. As for who will do the reorganization, just about everyone but Belkar's a good candidate. Roy, because he's the leader. Haley because she's also a good leader. Elan because he's growing as a character. V because he might grow as a character. Durkon because Durkon hasn't done much as an independent character since the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[Eric]

This is gonna be hilarious. Lien will find Kubota's armor on the seafloor, and report that he got away again.

Actually, that would be the best way to ensure he stays dead. If everyone thinks he's loped off to be a recurring villain, he'll not be resurrected.

I suspect Quar will get zapped big time. If only because he'll get in the way trying to turn V.

[Ganurath]

"As I recall, the albatrose was a sign of good luck until some fool went and shot it." -Malcolm Reynolds

Bad move, V.

[Eric]

A LN character can have a LE familiar i beleive.

Qarr "I see you are currently without a familiar. Perhaps i could join you, and tempt you slowly to the darkskide, mayby help you find that redhead you wanted. It will be realy cool! I can sit on your shoulder and win arguments with your concious and stuff!

V: I have no idea of what you're speaking. My familiar is right here and has been all along *pop* Lightning bolt.

Why do people think V doesn't have a familiar? Blackwing turns up only once every now and then (and then disappears when the characters aren't thinking about it). The last time Blackwing was full of arrows but still got back and wasn't dead.

[Jan Mattys]

Four right words:
I have enough. Disintegrate.

To the right being
Qarr

At the right time
Still thinking about it

For all the wrong reasons
Imp will just slow me down, I need to be alone
(as opposed to: Gosh, an Imp just came for assistance... maybe I'm evil)


EDIT: I agree with others: "Have a nice trip" is the best line by Elan in a very long time. Elan is becoming a much more interesting character who has a heart and *gosh* a brain.

[Eric]

Sitting down and cooperating for 6 seconds would have probably allowed the Pit Fiend to go down a lot easier.

Probably.

In your estimation.

With the benefit of hindsight.

Yeah, sure was V's fault. Should've been you and looked on three or four strips in the future.

Pshaw! That silly V!!!

[AstralFire]

Probably.

In your estimation.

With the benefit of hindsight.

Yeah, sure was V's fault. Should've been you and looked on three or four strips in the future.

Pshaw! That silly V!!!

Yes. There's absolutely no way that I would have come to that conclusion prior to the benefit of hindsight, especially not with Mr. Burlew going so far as to have Durkon attempt to work with V only to get really badly rebuffed. Cooperation and coordination was an idea alien to me until approximately six hours ago when, in a desperate scramble to find things to dislike about a character, I decided it was necessary to criticize something at random. This was, in no way, my immediate reaction on reading whatever strip it was that the Pit Fiend showed up in. You have me pegged so perfectly that I should call you MC Pegmeister Peggy, Esquire.

Alternate theory: It doesn't take hindsight to realize that coordination is most useful when fighting an overwhelming force. The Battle of Rorke's Drift wouldn't have been worth a breath in history if everyone there had decided to just start running out and attacking willy-nilly, leaving every man to fight for himself.

[derfenrirwolv]

Why do people think V doesn't have a familiar? Blackwing turns up only once every now and then (and then disappears when the characters aren't thinking about it). The last time Blackwing was full of arrows but still got back and wasn't dead.



I dunno. Ask someone that thinks V doesn't have a familiar. (and the last time he was seen was http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html )

[arkol]

I couldn't read 7 pages of comments so if someone already posted this sorry. Here's what I think will happen:


The Imp wants to go into the ship:
"And here I thought the hardest part would be getting back abord a ship with two paladins".

Imps have alternte form:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp

So the imp will disguise as V so he can be in the boat freely.

[AstralFire]

I couldn't read 7 pages of comments so if someone already posted this sorry. Here's what I think will happen:


The Imp wants to go into the ship:
"And here I thought the hardest part would be getting back abord a ship with two paladins".

Imps have alternte form:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp

So the imp will disguise as V so he can be in the boat freely.


Huh. That's a pretty clever theory.

[Laurentio II]

I just remind a thing from Vaarsuvius... "I blame Cerebus".
Ah, the irony...

[Eric]

Actually I think it was very mature. V just committed cold blooded murder and threatened to do the same to Elan for the slimmest of reasons.

Epic Wrong.

If you need to know what the dictionary definition of that would be, it would point to the above.

We already have had about 40 pages of "It's Murder!" and queries about "Why now and not then?".

And we have chewed the fat and pretty much got to a conclusion that that wasn't a threat meant AS "I'm going to kill you" in rather the same way as when you were thirteen and you were grounded for swearing at your mum and you said "I'm gonna KILL YOU". (Or Ballmer was going to really kill Google).

Unless you really HAVE killed your parents in an adolescent fit of rage...

[Roderick_BR]

:durkon: ...but c'mon! We need ye!
:vaarsuvius: And yet I see no reason why I still need ye.
:vaarsuvius: You.

That made me laugh :smallbiggrin:
But yeah, the group is splitting even more now... V's obssession is getting the better of him. Or her. :smallfrown:

[Eric]

I dunno. Ask someone that thinks V doesn't have a familiar. (and the last time he was seen was http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html )

I'd forgotten about 440. Last I remembered was after the bandit camp. Which made it of *some* sense that a few had been going on about Quar was going to be V's familiar 'cos he needed one.

Maybe you meant Quar would *replace* Blackwing, but I think that still costs the caster 1CON point.

[Finwe]

Yeah, sure was V's fault. Should've been you and looked on three or four strips in the future.

You're talking about a being who is, in fact, capable of looking into the future via magic. Not only that, be he has a web browser spell! He could have done exactly what you're suggesting, and didn't. :smalltongue:

[Laendra]

But really, I wish the group would start merging back together instead of splitting into smaller groups.

Quoteth for truth. I wish the group would get back together soon too...much sooner than it currently looks like is going to happen, because, to me, this isn't very Stick imho.

[Lichtouch]

I've been thinking that V has been going down the road of the bad guy recently, however, now I am thinking something else.

600 might show that V still has morals. Qarr will offer V unlimited power in return for his soul or something along that vein and V will go "how about no" and zap him - just to show us that while V may not be the moral compass of the party, he certainly isn't a villian just yet.

[Winged One]

I couldn't read 7 pages of comments so if someone already posted this sorry. Here's what I think will happen:


The Imp wants to go into the ship:
"And here I thought the hardest part would be getting back abord a ship with two paladins".

Imps have alternte form:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp

So the imp will disguise as V so he can be in the boat freely.

Hm...clever, but not possible by RAW. Not that that's ever stopped The Giant before. No possible imp alternate forms even remotely resemble an elf, jokes about how V's health aside.

This is also outside the RAW, but to combine your theory with a couple of others: One possible alternate form for an imp is a raven. If V were to somehow switch out Blackwing for Quar(which V would probably do if the offer doesn't cause V to realize that V is turning evil, considering how much V is always bitching about it), then Quar could impersonate Blackwing in an attempt to disguise just how bad V has gotten from Haley.

[Shatteredtower]

A number of readers have taken issue with my criticism of the tale's drift from the main plot, operating under the assumption that this grievance meant I wanted the story to be shorter. It's a flawed assumption; the story could have kept the Order from reaching their goal for the same amount of storytelling without having to take them off course for so long.

With strip #599, there is again the suggestion of moving toward the goal and toward foreshadowed character-defining events, and it's being handled in a fashion that creates obstacles for the party (the further sundering of the group) while still moving at least one of them in the direction of their goal. This was well done, and I wish we'd seen more of (what will be) the fourth book's events to date handled in similar fashion. Not all of them, please understand -- not everything can or should be tied to the gate quest -- but more of them.

(For example, it wouldn't have been hard to link Kubota to the gates: portrayed as he was, it's somewhat hard to believe that he wouldn't have sent ninja to learn what Hinjo had been trying to keep out of Xykon's hands, then done his best to learn more of the other two gates, seeking a bargaining chip that might both get his city back and discredit Hinjo. Knowing Xykon, Kubota might have plenty of cause to regret such a deal. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have risked it, considering the prize at stake.)

There are a few more things I like about this strip. First, V's physical condition clearly refutes the claim for not needing rest. I'm puzzled on one point, however: how is the elf recovering spells without resting? The possible rendezvous with Quarr also has potential -- even if it does delay a reunion between V and Haley, the imp would be very interested in opportunities offered by the gates.

Finally, I loved everything about Elan's handling of the situation. The quick, neutral farewell, followed by a very to-the-point remark displayed maturity and possibly the closest thing to leadership this trio has right now. It was then followed by an expression of doubt that echoes remarks we saw in strip #596 ("I guess--I guess it's for the best."), though with a bit more certainty ("I think -- I think it's for the best," and then, "It's probably for the best.") His opinion may be horribly wrong, if Quarr has anything to say about it, but there's plenty to indicate that talking V into staying might be the wrong thing to do as far as everyone is concerned (or at least for Hinjo, Elan, and V).

I also like how Elan suggested to V that he'd tell Hinjo the truth, then appeared to change his mind at the last moment. It was worth seeing how easily the lie unravelled as well (even if Hinjo isn't going to press the issue further), since lying was V's suggestion. I don't know if I've ever seen Elan lose his temper quite like this before either. (Anger at his brother came out a bit different, and anger at V over the multi-class-to-wizard fiasco seem to have come out in very different style.)

Back to V, though -- or rather, to Quarr:

Imps can assume two animal forms, with raven being one of the more popular choices (according to the MM listing -- gamers may have another opinion on the subject). Anyone else wondering if he might try to pass himself off as Blackwing or another familiar? It should be easy enough to uncover the ruse -- the lack of an empathic link alone ought to be a dead giveaway -- but I'm not sure V's faculties are reliable enough to work through whatever pretext the Giant might offer Quarr.

Please note that I find this highly unlikely. I only mention it because the raven link has entertaining possibilities, whether or not V could see through the facade.

As for whether or not Blackwing is still around, their final appearance does have a sort of "last straw" feeling for both of them.

My only complaint about the strip is with its title, but that's only because I've got a Journey song stuck in my head now.

[sihnfahl]

Ah, but Elan knows that Kubota's armor is down there. Sharks may devour whole bodies, but they rarely remove their equipment before doing so. :wink:
Yeah, but what goes in has to come out at some point...

[arkol]

Hm...clever, but not possible by RAW. Not that that's ever stopped The Giant before.

Damn... that's what happens when you don't read the whole ability...

However....
Quar is not a simple "out of the book" imp. He probably has class levels of some sort, most likely a caster class. Thus he could easily have another way to change his form...

[Lerky]

woah...this person hit the nail on the head

I really liked this theory (unfortunatly I can't remember who posted it) "Show me Haley Starshine!". V is searching for them mostly out of guilt and trying preserve his self image as a superior being of awesome arcane power. In his quest to find Haley and Belkar he's going out of his mind, and it's not far fetched that he gets some powerful mage to help him on his quest (possibly a demon/devil/doily). The right time being when the duration of the cloister spell runs out, the wrong reasons - he's doing it out of selfishness rather than sincere concern for his comrades.
or the 4 words could be "I will join you"
I still don't get the right time. Most likely when there's a path to join evil or the order set before him/her

[Eraniverse]

I couldn't read 7 pages of comments so if someone already posted this sorry. Here's what I think will happen:


The Imp wants to go into the ship:
"And here I thought the hardest part would be getting back abord a ship with two paladins".

Imps have alternte form:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp

So the imp will disguise as V so he can be in the boat freely.


Flying the wrong direction in the last panel. Clearly some interaction with V is planned.

[spectralphoenix]

Yes. There's absolutely no way that I would have come to that conclusion prior to the benefit of hindsight, especially not with Mr. Burlew going so far as to have Durkon attempt to work with V only to get really badly rebuffed. Cooperation and coordination was an idea alien to me until approximately six hours ago when, in a desperate scramble to find things to dislike about a character, I decided it was necessary to criticize something at random. This was, in no way, my immediate reaction on reading whatever strip it was that the Pit Fiend showed up in. You have me pegged so perfectly that I should call you MC Pegmeister Peggy, Esquire.

So exactly how was cooperation going to help? The "aerial livery service" idea wasn't even feasible, unless V's plans for achieving ultimate arcane power have involved raising his strength score heavily. Durkon suggested that he heal V, and V countered with a suggestion to lower the fiends saves (a tactic which directly resulted in its defeat.)

And as long as we're talking about it, Therkla left halfway through the fight, was probably significantly lower level than the PCs, and wasn't in a position to sudden strike. Hinjo is 12th level or so, but was taking some hurt by then, and his dog was out of the picture. Lien is even lower level, and was having trouble beating the devil's DR. Elan isn't terribly good at melee even at the best of times, and probably wasn't packing a silver rapier. Durkon is a healer, not CoDzilla. So it wasn't a pack of 15th level characters going after a CR 20. Additionally, the reason the CR system seems a bit low is because most PCs optimize their characters significantly more than the Gimbles and Jozans the system assumes. THis isn't true with the Order. So really, the best option against a single overwhelmingly difficult opponent IS to lower its saves and throw save-or-dies.

As for the AC battle, consider what would have happened if either side hadn't had their high level characters. Without Redcloaks summons, the walls would have held much longer. V would have been free to blast the hobbos all day long without the Death Knight, and his enchanced soldiers could have kept killing. Xykon wouldn't have wiped out the occupants of the keep.

On the other hand, Xykon has DR enough so that the common soldiers can't touch him. He could have bombarded the soldiers from his dragon (that they can't hurt with arrows either) until he runs out of spells, then land and make touch attacks until he re-dies of boredom. Without the hoards of ghosts in the throne room, he and Redcloak would have been virtually unopposed.

[spectralphoenix]

I couldn't read 7 pages of comments so if someone already posted this sorry. Here's what I think will happen:


The Imp wants to go into the ship:
"And here I thought the hardest part would be getting back abord a ship with two paladins".

Imps have alternte form:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp

So the imp will disguise as V so he can be in the boat freely.


From the SRD: Each imp can assume one or two forms from the following list: Small or Medium monstrous spider, raven, rat, and boar.

[RMS Oceanic]

This is a cliffhanger if I've ever seen one, and three things can happen.

1. It can be played straight, Qarr persuades V to team up and V's slippery slope becomes 30 degrees more steep.
2. It can be played straight, Qarr offers his services, but V refuses and zaps him.
3. It can be averted with V completely ignoring Qarr, or even Qarr not being able to catch up to V's fly speed.

Unfortunately, my gut says 1 is the most likely option.

EDIT: Crackpot idea

4. The comic switches suddenly to Haley/Xykon/LG, and we don't find out what happens for at least 20-30 strips.

[AstralFire]

So exactly how was cooperation going to help? The "aerial livery service" idea wasn't even feasible, unless V's plans for achieving ultimate arcane power have involved raising his strength score heavily. Durkon suggested that he heal V, and V countered with a suggestion to lower the fiends saves (a tactic which directly resulted in its defeat.)

Please don't jump into an argument where one person (me) is taking on about 3 or 4 and not read past posts; it leads to more typing and ring-around-rosie debating than necessary:


Fly spell. "Oh, hey, Hinjo can fly now and doesn't need to waste time making leaping one-attack charges, not to mention no longer being bunched up on the ground for the fiend's AoE blasts!" Enlarge person, any number of buffs or debuffs to make the front-liner a bigger and bigger threat so V can blast with less notice from a farther distance. V's spellbook isn't ALL direct damage, though the likely low amount of buffs he carries and his strategem in general also point towards his self-centeredness screwing over his competency.


And as long as we're talking about it, Therkla left halfway through the fight, was probably significantly lower level than the PCs, and wasn't in a position to sudden strike.

As did Elan - but I don't blame anyone for not anticipating their leaving, only for not utilizing them while they were there. Also, I'm pretty sure Therkla was PC level.


Hinjo is 12th level or so, but was taking some hurt by then, and his dog was out of the picture.

And coordination and cooperation would have minimized that.


Lien is even lower level, and was having trouble beating the devil's DR.

However, she has healing and the ability to support.


Elan isn't terribly good at melee even at the best of times, and probably wasn't packing a silver rapier.

He has gotten solidly better, and V has shown the ability to help Elan make good use of his spells before. There is also Inspire Courage to consider. Remember, I didn't say V was incapable, I said he was incompetent; Elan is incapable AND incompetent, though he's rising in both estimations slowly.


Durkon is a healer, not CoDzilla.

And people were getting hurt, and the Big D has shown the ability to lay a powerful smackdown more than once.


As for the AC battle, consider what would have happened if either side hadn't had their high level characters. Without Redcloaks summons, the walls would have held much longer. V would have been free to blast the hobbos all day long without the Death Knight, and his enchanced soldiers could have kept killing. Xykon wouldn't have wiped out the occupants of the keep.

On the other hand, Xykon has DR enough so that the common soldiers can't touch him. He could have bombarded the soldiers from his dragon (that they can't hurt with arrows either) until he runs out of spells, then land and make touch attacks until he re-dies of boredom. Without the hoards of ghosts in the throne room, he and Redcloak would have been virtually unopposed.

At no point did I say or even suggest the high-level characters were irrelevant. That is not the same as saying the low-level ones are irrelevant either. Xykon is epic and can indeed epic-out the hordes of common soldiers, sure, but the OotS can't quite-so-easily do that to the hobgoblin armies. Having every inch of support against those armies helps.

[arkol]

From the SRD: Each imp can assume one or two forms from the following list: Small or Medium monstrous spider, raven, rat, and boar.

Yes spectralphoenix, so Winged One pointed out quite a few posts before you....

[Linkavitch]

Not good. . . good comic, though, giant. I think 600 is going to have the imp making an alliance with V, now. Also, have changed Sig. to have new fav quote: They were Dire Half-Dragon Bone-Eating Werepirannas, Okay?!?!?:Elan:

[Lunaya]

I was surprised to see V just up and leave, but in retrospect, I guess I shouldn't have been. The same statement applies to Durkon looking sad over V's departure. :smallfrown: Good ol' Durkon.

[R.O.A.]

Does this mean V will be getting replaced (with Hinjo? Please?)
Yeah, I'm sure the ruler of Azure city will happily abdicate his thrne in favour of the nobles in his cities hour of need inrder to go wandering round dungeons with the order :smalltongue:


Brilliant, just brilliant...
I guess this marks the end of the OotS as a group of adventurers and starts to consider them as characters of a novel though. This is a great but so not D&D anymore.
I don't see why. Here's why they split up:
Haley's player (lets call her Harriet) can't make it to the thursday evening d&d sessions for a while 'cos she's doing an evening class, or some other regular thing. Eventually she'll finish them, but for now it's decided she'll game on a wedsday instead. Bob (belkar's player) and maybe roy's player, Rob, (taking over Celia) decide to play on wednesdays for a while, but everyone else is as normal, and the dm runs 2 sessions a week. While this is going on, Leslie (V's player) drops out of the group, meaning the DM takes over as V.
Ta da! :smallbiggrin:

(and to join in the mass prediction making, I reckon #600 will see us switch over to Haley.)

[Warren Dew]

This is gonna be hilarious. Lien will find Kubota's armor on the seafloor, and report that he got away again.

... or else report that Elan was right. Elan did say "bone-eating" piranhas, not "metal-eating" piranhas.

It's weird: I used to hate Elan, and now I'm starting to like him. He's helping to find Haley in the only way he can: wishing Vaarsuvius luck.

The first couple of frames in the second page are an interesting turn around from the last strip. Elan tries to let Vaarsuvius know that he'll be telling Hinjo the truth, but is not understood because Vaarsuvius isn't listening. Then because he didn't get through to Vaarsuvius, he isn't up to following through.

[AstralFire]

... or else report that Elan was right. Elan did say "bone-eating" piranhas, not "metal-eating" piranhas.

It's weird: I used to hate Elan, and now I'm starting to like him. He's helping to find Haley in the only way he can: wishing Vaarsuvius luck.

The first couple of frames in the second page are an interesting turn around from the last strip. Elan tries to let Vaarsuvius know that he'll be telling Hinjo the truth, but is not understood because Vaarsuvius isn't listening. Then because he didn't get through to Vaarsuvius, he isn't up to following through.

Nice catch. I wonder if that was intentional, or just one of those funny authorial coinkydinks.

[Yoyoyo]

Flying the wrong direction in the last panel. Clearly some interaction with V is planned.

Yes, and I read the "hard part getting back aboard the ship with two paladins" was not said because Qarr wanted to infiltrate the ship, but because he's had his eye on V and wants to join up with her. V just took out a major Pit Fiend and Kubota had been siding against him lately:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0562.html

And, not sure if I'm right, but Qarr doesn't know that Kubota is dead. I bet he finds out soon enough when he meets up with V. I doubt that the Imp is going anywhere too soon.

[factotum]

To my mind, Qarr wanted to get back aboard the ship to meet up with V for a bit of the old tempting to the evil side, I agree there; however, I think Qarr's reasons for doing so are because he saw what V did to Kubota and recognised someone who was ripe for temptation, not because he's been watching him off-panel for the past few weeks or something. He would also recognise that V is by far and away the most powerful character he's likely to meet--Kubota may have had power through dint of money and nobility, but V has power intrinsically, which is much easier and more direct to make use of.

[Yoyoyo]

I think Qarr's reasons for doing so are because he saw what V did to Kubota and recognised someone who was ripe for temptation, not because he's been watching him off-panel for the past few weeks or something. He would also recognise that V is by far and away the most powerful character he's likely to meet--Kubota may have had power through dint of money and nobility, but V has power intrinsically, which is much easier and more direct to make use of.

Did Qarr actually see V kill Kubota? Some off panel lurking is necessary if he says that he did. But I think you're right on V is the most powerful and bound to attract an Imp in hir current state of mind.

[synnerman]

Hello Dark Willow, I mean Dark Phoenix, I mean Dark Varsuvius!

[TheNovak]

Sneaky Imp + Poison Tail + Distracted V + Probably Fortitude Penalties for Going Months Without Trancing = V ain't goin' nowhere.

[Tobrian]

:smalleek:
Wow, that was... harsh.

The first thought that went through my mind when I read the update, though, was not "Fellowship of the Ring: The Parting of the Ways", but "Varsuuvius is doing a Raistlin" (anyone who knows Dragonlance will know what I mean).


Sneaky Imp + Poison Tail + Distracted V + Probably Fortitude Penalties for Going Months Without Trancing = V ain't goin' nowhere.
Actually, i believe, since imps can see alignment auras, the imp is seeing someone who is evil, and wants a new master... evil characters can have imps as advanced familiars.


Poor imp is gonna be torn into shreads. V is as pissed as I've ever seen him/her.

Yes, I think that if the imp believes it can manipulate V, it is sorely mistaken. V is not Kubota. Kubota was a shortsighted vain selfish man. V is, above all things, loyal to his friends, especially to Haley and Roy.

V seems to have gone from True Neutral Alignment straight to Lawful Evil, if indeed he/she is evil, and not still neutral. (One execution of someone who would or should have been tried and sentenced to death for high treason and mass murder does not make you evil in my book, and neither does being curt and impolite and sarcastic, but I digress.)

V definitely is NOT neutral evil; he may seem selfish to Durkon, but actually I think V is the exact opposite of selfish. V runs himself ragged to find Haley, and also for a greater goal: saving the world from Xykon. Yes, in the beginning V's goal was to attain "ultimate power" for himself... now he wants greater power to destroy Xykon and stop Recloak, which is far more noble. Becoming a lich to kill a lich?

Interesting that this time, Elan is the guy to get it. "Have a nice trip." Because in a way, V is correct. They have more important things to do than waste time on political games and refugees. Those are Hinjos responsibility.

[David Argall]

I, for one, hope that this is just a big buildup to getting the band back together. Having 4+ parallel indeterminate story lines is starting to make OoTS seem like Heroes.

The party has been split for quite long enough, but is going to be split for a lot more time. I'm beginning to wonder if they will even get together this book. Still, we have about 70 pages to go, and a re-united party would make for a good final page.



Why do people think V doesn't have a familiar? Blackwing turns up only once every now and then (and then disappears when the characters aren't thinking about it). The last time Blackwing was full of arrows but still got back and wasn't dead.
The last time was 440, and Blackwing's comments can easily be read as resigning the office of familiar. So if it is plot useful, and it is looking like it is, V has an opening for a familiar.

And no, V is not going to one spell zap the little fellow. Why bring him back into the story just for a one panel shot? Qarr may not get the exact office of familiar, but he looks to be paling around with V for several strips.



Oooh. Could Qarr be "the wrong being"? (Goes to re-check the oracle's wording).

Edit: It's the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons. I sense a step closer to that prophecy becoming fulfilled, though.



Actually, I think we already had the four words (Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.) at the right time (before a would-be trial) to the right being (Kubota) for the wrong reasons (it was not a good act, nor was it a lawful one, and the paladins would not tolerate it).
This idea was dubious when it was first suggested, and now is simply not on the table. The "4 words" are 2 spells, which are merely written as 4 words for convenience, not 4 words for actual hearing. Nor were they said to Kubota. A great many of us would deny this was the right time, and "wrong reasons" normally means reasons you would feel were unimportant under the circumstances when you look back, not factors you already knew.

Qarr fits much better here Something like "You are my familiar" would be 4 words to the right individual and we can assume it is the right time to get mucho magic power, and the wrong reasons could turn out to be either the rescue of Haley [who was about to rescue herself, or the obtaining of power [which it turns out V doesn't want all that much]




Think Qarr might know about the gates, since Sabine told her masters, and maybe they have the same bosses? Or that he heard about the gates through the Infernal Grapevine?
At last report, Qarr had no knowledge of the gates and is a LE devil while Sabine is apparently a CE demon, who at least reports to a different boss. Of course our heros have babbled about the gates at times, and Qarr may have been listening, but much of Kubota's behavior would be absurd if he was advised by an imp who knew about the gates.



It may be his top priority, but V is dumb as an awakened brick - he's the stereotypical fighter of the party. Assumes he should be in charge, no emotional intelligence, has no ability to lead, and his methodology involves hitting the thing harder again.
Now V has shown no interest in leading from the start. There are few she is willing to take orders from, but when he respects his leader, he is perhaps the best in the party at following those orders.
And it is rather dubious to criticize V's abilities after she took out the devil. Nor will it do here to say his tactics could have been better. The scene is written to show V at her best [and arrogant worst] and any improvements in his tactics largely represent writer or reader error.



Well, we know how strip 600 will be important now.
Last time I was suggesting that 598 might be a way to pad so the important strip hits 600. This time I point out that 599 is a double strip for no really good reason, which also makes it a possible way to position 600. That the two ideas almost totally conflict doesn't seem to bother many around here.

But while we have an idea what 600 will be about, calling it particularly important seems suspect. We might as well label Haley leaving Azure City as important.

[spectralphoenix]

Fly spell. "Oh, hey, Hinjo can fly now and doesn't need to waste time making leaping one-attack charges, not to mention no longer being bunched up on the ground for the fiend's AoE blasts!" Enlarge person, any number of buffs or debuffs to make the front-liner a bigger and bigger threat so V can blast with less notice from a farther distance. V's spellbook isn't ALL direct damage, though the likely low amount of buffs he carries and his strategem in general also point towards his self-centeredness screwing over his competency. Actually, I'm pretty sure the reason he doesn't have a lot of buffs is because there are two offensive core wizard buffs above 3rd level and one defensive buff (with an expensive material component that V probably did not have,) not counting "mass" versions of low level spells. Buffing wouldn't have been a bad idea before combat, but by the time enough low-level spells had been cast to really make a difference, the devil would have killed everyone twice over. And even if he did cast a significant amount of buffs, a Pit Fiend has Greater Dispel Magic at will at CL 18.






As did Elan - but I don't blame anyone for not anticipating their leaving, only for not utilizing them while they were there. Also, I'm pretty sure Therkla was PC level. Utilizing them to do what? Until she left, Therkla was tied up. Elan immediately ran over to her. Even if he hadn't, there was no way he could significantly damage the devil on his own, and bard song requires no help from V.



And coordination and cooperation would have minimized that. How? Unless V had Stoneskin prepared and the material component handy (and the order has another use for diamonds,) there are no significant defensive buffs he could have cast.




However, she has healing and the ability to support. Yes, but a 9th level Paladin's healing abilities don't really add up to an extra 15th level character when considering whether the party can defeat a 20th level opponent with conventional tactics or not.




He has gotten solidly better, and V has shown the ability to help Elan make good use of his spells before. There is also Inspire Courage to consider. Remember, I didn't say V was incapable, I said he was incompetent; Elan is incapable AND incompetent, though he's rising in both estimations slowly. And again, my point is that we have two competent 15th level characters, one 15th level character with a duty to use his limited competence to have a partial effect on the world from time to time, a 12th level character, a 9th level character, and a ninja of unknown level who was tied up nearby. This does not equal a full party of 15th level characters. Even if they were a full 15th level party, defeating a Pit Fiend would be a stretch (while the CR system tends to underestimate PCs, these PCs aren't as optimized as most, and certain monsters such as dragons and pit fiends are more powerful than others of their level.) Therefore, V concluded correctly that he'd need to use tactics other than "beat on it with my friends until it dies." He then proceeded to tell Durkon to lower the fiend's saves (AKA coordinate with him) and turn to his best option.




And people were getting hurt, and the Big D has shown the ability to lay a powerful smackdown more than once. And Pit Fiends, like most powerful Devils, have regeneration and DR against non-silver weapons. Durkon's "Smackdown" wasn't all that effective. Also, see my point above.




At no point did I say or even suggest the high-level characters were irrelevant. That is not the same as saying the low-level ones are irrelevant either. Xykon is epic and can indeed epic-out the hordes of common soldiers, sure, but the OotS can't quite-so-easily do that to the hobgoblin armies. Having every inch of support against those armies helps.The Order could have been almost as effective if it wasn't for the high level characters opposing them. Suppose V had flown up to 1000 feet and started blasting with Widened spells? ANd Xykon could use exactly the same tactics at a lower level.

[Yoyoyo]

: I think that if the imp believes it can manipulate V, it is sorely mistaken. V is not Kubota. Kubota was a shortsighted vain selfish man. V is, above all things, loyal to his friends, especially to Haley and Roy.

Not to stick up for the Imp, but aren't you selling him a little short (pun intended)? Isn't an Imp's whole role in life to manipulate and survive powerful masters who would kill them without hesitation? Kubota was an easier partner, granted, but V is not unbreakable, especially if Qarr plays on hir loyalty to Haley.

[StarGazer42]

Does it bother anyone else that the ever-eloquent Vaarsuvius says "less restrictions" instead of "fewer restrictions"?
Maybe I'm just a Grammar Nazi...

[TheNovak]

Actually, i believe, since imps can see alignment auras, the imp is seeing someone who is evil, and wants a new master... evil characters can have imps as advanced familiars.

That's assuming V's evil now, of course. Plus, the imp doesn't know Kubota's dead yet, so he's not really in the market for a new master. Plus plus, Kubota was an Aristocrat, not a Wizard or Sorceror, so it's not as if the imp was his familiar; they were just business buddies.

I'm not convinced I'm right, though, considering Rich just used poison on Therkla. Still, I'm gonna go ahead and predict that the imp does something to prevent V from departing.

(Also, I just noticed this; anyone else laugh at the Palin joke?)

[Yoyoyo]

I think Imp's have an at will detect good, but can't see alignment auras. If V's some form of neutral (chaotic or true), which s/he appears to be, then Qarr won't rule out working with her on a good alignment basis.

[Red XIV]

Woo! Go V! I actually do agree with the fact that the other OotS members that were with him on the ship weren't exactly helping to find Haley. Elan became Hinjo's bodyguard, while Durkon was basically the only cleric aboard the fleet.
What exactly could they do? They're not the ones with scrying abilities, after all.


At the very least its 10s of thousands of gold worth of treasure towards the "True Resurrection Of Roy" fund. :smallcool:
IIRC, Haley's looting of Grubwiggler's castle already brought in more than enough to pay for a True Resurrection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html). The problem is finding a 17th-level cleric, which seem to be in rather short supply in the OotS-verse. There's a decent chance that Redcloak is 17th-level, but that's not particularly helpful to Roy.

[RosesOnConcrete]

Good comic, bad omen. It feels like the Order's never gonna get back together again, at this rate. :(

[Stryyder]

My theory is that V will become a Baelnorn....

Lich vs. Baelnorn climatic ending on the way?

[spectralphoenix]

What exactly could they do? They're not the ones with scrying abilities, after all.

Clerics get Scrying, some other handy divinations, and the ability to research spells of their own. Elan could do something other than threaten to tell on V because V was brusque about the death of one of Elan's romantic subplots.

[Ted The Bug]

I scanned and rescanned V's words for an important 4-word phrase. Nothing.
Strip 600 better come fast.

[Eben]

Let's not forget that V has more strings to the world than just the order.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html

I have to wonder what he/she is going to have to do with this... mess.
The giant would not have introduced him/her without a reason.

[Kdansky]

I don't like the current development. I am much too fond of V to see this happen :(

If this continues, OOTS might lose it's spot as my most beloved comic. Just because currently, I'm cringing everytime I read it, instead of breaking out in laughter every couple panels. :( :( :(

[Arkenputtyknife]

V definitely is NOT neutral evil; he may seem selfish to Durkon, but actually I think V is the exact opposite of selfish.

While I'm no expert on D&D, I'm pretty sure that selfless/selfish lies on the good/evil axis, not the law/chaos axis.

[holywhippet]

1) Anyone else notice the mistake in the last 3 panels? The imp is still wounded. But imps recover 2 HP per round from their fast healing ability. He should have been back to full health by now.

2) Does V technically still have a familiar? It refused to help cover Vs escape during the battle for Azure city.

3) I'm very curious as to where V is heading off to. Two strong possibilities are his/her former master and his/her spouse. I think the Giant said the latter would appear in the comic at some point - maybe they can talk some reason into V.

[malakim2099]

This idea was dubious when it was first suggested, and now is simply not on the table. The "4 words" are 2 spells, which are merely written as 4 words for convenience, not 4 words for actual hearing. Nor were they said to Kubota.

But in the context of the comic, they ARE four words. And the target of the spells was Kubota (and well, the Kubota-dust afterwards). It is good to know that you have access to the Giant's inner thoughts, since you can so easily blast opinions not your own as simply "not possible" and pronounce your own thoughts as Undeniable Fact. :smallamused:


A great many of us would deny this was the right time, and "wrong reasons" normally means reasons you would feel were unimportant under the circumstances when you look back, not factors you already knew.

This is from V's perspective, however. To him, disintegrating Kubota has no significant importance, as he is (or rather, his player is) metagaming to a rather large extreme. He doesn't know, nor does he particularly care that Kubota was anything other than an obstacle to be eliminated in favor of progressing the overall plot.

It also set into motion a chain of events that led to him 1) leaving the Order of the Stick (or at least this half of it) and 2) being possibly/probably tempted by Qarr to "help" which 3) could lead to him being tempted by Ultimate Arcane Power. Of course, the Giant could always throw a curve ball... it isn't like it hasn't happened before. :smallamused:


At last report, Qarr had no knowledge of the gates and is a LE devil while Sabine is apparently a CE demon, who at least reports to a different boss. Of course our heros have babbled about the gates at times, and Qarr may have been listening, but much of Kubota's behavior would be absurd if he was advised by an imp who knew about the gates.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Qarr could well have been working with Kubota to take over Azure City in the first place, so that he could get access to the Sapphire Gate. The various evil deities do know about the Gates, so it is not inconceivable that Qarr has some knowledge as well.

Additionally, it's never been established that Sabine was a demon or devil, as that's been a running gag almost as long as V's gender. :smallwink:

[Red XIV]

Additionally, it's never been established that Sabine was a demon or devil, as that's been a running gag almost as long as V's gender. :smallwink:
Haley doesn't know whether Sabine is a demon or a devil. The evidence available to us readers (which includes scenes where Haley isn't present) makes it more likely that Sabine is a succubus (demon) than an erinyes (devil). Some of the stuff that Haley herself has seen probably ought to lead to that conclusion, but Haley might simply not know much about the difference between demons and devils, beyond what metals they're vulnerable to.

[Martok]

As Elan would say, "DUN DUN DUNN!!" :smalltongue:

Tongue-in-cheek aside, however, this is definitely worrying. What will become of V?? :smalleek:


Also, kudos to Elan on letting V go. Probably one of the smarter decisions he's made.

[FelixZ]

Because V would blast him?

A more pressing question is: If V hasn't tranced, how is she able to cast spells?:smallconfused:

[Stryyder]

Because V would blast him?

A more pressing question is: If V hasn't tranced, how is she able to cast spells?:smallconfused:

I think trance is there versions of sleep whice meditating is what is required for memorizing spells...

[Sequinox]

Noooooooooo! Why did you leave, V? Apart from all the obvious reasons? You were my favorite character... Now where has your awesomeness gone?

I still like the comic and all but I'm kinda disappointed. Still, I'm glad that we're gonna see more of Belkar and Haley soon. I hope.

[Tobimaro]

I understand V's desire to locate Haley (and Roy), but V really needs to look at what's happening in the real world. But I do agree with V on the fact that Durkon and Elan need to get of their butts and begin to bring the OotS back together.

[Moran]

I can only say : WOOOOF! This is thick! :smalleek:

[Enigma95]

All I can say is -> :smalleek:

[Mercenary Pen]

1) Anyone else notice the mistake in the last 3 panels? The imp is still wounded. But imps recover 2 HP per round from their fast healing ability. He should have been back to full health by now.

That merely suggests that a) less time has actually passed than we thought OR b) Qarr is a higher level than just your basic imp, therefore possessing more hit dice, and took more overall damage (possibly some collateral damage whilst requisitioning the Pit Fiend)...

AND if the imp is a higher level than normal, whatever it may have levels in, that would make it a tougher fight for V (if this actually comes to combat) than just V vs. Random Imp #726... It gets even more interesting if we have either a class with decent saving throw progression or the ability to cast higher level spells right back.

[Dalek Kommander]

The first couple of frames in the second page are an interesting turn around from the last strip. Elan tries to let Vaarsuvius know that he'll be telling Hinjo the truth, but is not understood because Vaarsuvius isn't listening. Then because he didn't get through to Vaarsuvius, he isn't up to following through.

Just because Varsuuvius doesn't care doesn't mean he doesn't understand. Goodness knows I've ended more than one role playing misadventure by saying "Well, there's another town I can never go back to..." ;)

As for Elan lying to Hinjo, I chalk that up to the fact that as a bard, he is chaotic good, and does not actually see the point in stirring up more trouble just for the sake of a "broken law".

[TigerHunter]

Elan? Hello? He was trying to escape, and V offed him. That's your story and you're sticking to it.

And pretending that the bad guy was trying to escape when you killed him is the most cliche way of offing someone without a trial, so it's not like he's not creative enough to think up a lie. As V said, he's the Bard. He can tell a good story.

[Manoftyr]

Hrrrrmn, interesting...while I doubt V will become a longterm villain, possibly a short-term one depending on how much influence Qarr can exert over him but definitely not a long term one, I do foresee some considerable problems for Elan in the near future due to a certain annoyingly short sighted and self-righteous Paladin once again putting the letter of the law above the spirit of the law (imho Hinjo is little if any better than Miko) and the innocent will suffer in the wake of the ever-purging 'glorious crusade' of Lawful-Stupidity, the same thing that lead to the downfall of Azure City actually, hurrah for the Paladins and hurrah for dead Goblin women and children pip pip cheerio and all that.

...by the gods I want Hinjo to die 'so' badly, I'm still hoping V...or really 'anyone' ends up killing him somehow for any reason really, the way he betrayed his father without considering his reasons for hiding the truth and sat idly by as Miko bisected him condemns him utterly in my eyes...loyalty to your family and your kin>loyalty to the letters of the law if you lose sight of that then you are simply 'not' a good person no matter how much shiny blue clothing you wear or how brightly blue you shine when someone casts a spell on you, at least in my eyes.

I'm still pulling for the gang all reuniting at some point in the not too distant future though, hopefully 'far' away from meddling Azurites.

[Lord Seth]

You know, I know I'm supposed to be thinking "Wow! What a twist! I wonder what's going to happen next?" but all I can think is "Oh, great, ANOTHER twist that'll just serve to make the story actually get moving even later."

[AstralFire]

If Elan wasn't Elan I would suggest that some part of him wants Hinjo to know but in such a way that no trouble is caused.

[Kish]

Haley doesn't know whether Sabine is a demon or a devil.
More important is that Nale apparently doesn't either, as he wanted to use scissors which were neither silver nor cold iron.

Considering that, I concur with malakim2099: It's meant to be unclear as a running gag.

[Ragn Charran]

You know, I know I'm supposed to be thinking "Wow! What a twist! I wonder what's going to happen next?" but all I can think is "Oh, great, ANOTHER twist that'll just serve to make the story actually get moving even later."

Sadly I find that I have to agree.

[Dalek Kommander]

Actually, i believe, since imps can see alignment auras, the imp is seeing someone who is evil, and wants a new master... evil characters can have imps as advanced familiars.

Well, I don't know if he's turned completely evil yet, but he's certainly ripe for the classic imp-on-the-shoulder "join the dark side, you know you wanna" speech.


Yes, I think that if the imp believes it can manipulate V, it is sorely mistaken. V is not Kubota. Kubota was a shortsighted vain selfish man. V is, above all things, loyal to his friends, especially to Haley and Roy.

Even if that's true, it doesn't make a bit of difference. As long as V is grimly focused on achieving ANY goal with such single-minded determination, he is WIDE open to temptation offered in the form of "help".

I actually suspect Kubota, in his pure selfishness, had a better understanding of the full market value of his own soul.



V seems to have gone from True Neutral Alignment straight to Lawful Evil, if indeed he/she is evil, and not still neutral.

Why lawful? If anything, chaotic. If he was lawful evil, he would have found more use for his disposable red-shirted mooks... excuse me, his "beloved team-mates"... in the fight against the giant demon. He also probably should have shown a bit more interest in the laws that Kubota intended to bend to his whim, for his own purposes.

Varsuuvius does not see the value of his allies even as pawns. He's impulsive and irritable, rather than cool and devious. He sees laws as irritating obstacles, rather than tools to be bent to his own advantage. When you could take lessons from Belkar about how to be a more patient team player, you aren't lawful evil.



V definitely is NOT neutral evil; he may seem selfish to Durkon, but actually I think V is the exact opposite of selfish. V runs himself ragged to find Haley, and also for a greater goal: saving the world from Xykon. Yes, in the beginning V's goal was to attain "ultimate power" for himself... now he wants greater power to destroy Xykon and stop Recloak, which is far more noble. Becoming a lich to kill a lich?

Saving the world is not an intrinsically selfless goal, in light of the fact that he lives IN the world he is trying to save. Also, it's been suggested before and I see merit in it, that he isn't so much going crazy out of loyalty to Haley, but out of frustration that his MAGIC POWER is not sufficient to tear apart the fabric of reality that stands between him and any goal he chooses to set himself, which in this case just happens to be finding Haley.