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Fan
2008-10-08, 07:49 PM
Okay we are playing in a Lvl 70 game, and the entire goal is to saly a optimized deity, I unfoutantly am not familar with THIS high of a level of play, and i need help with building a buil that isn't a: Pun Pun B: anything like Halfling gauntlets, or any infitne combos.
We get 6 lbvls of LA for free this inculdes RHD, and I REALLY need to figure this out.:smalleek:

Khosan
2008-10-08, 07:52 PM
Is epic spellcasting allowed?

If so, how long do you have to prepare?

AstralFire
2008-10-08, 07:55 PM
D&D Very High Epic Play consists entirely of three types of combat:

- Core Fighter tactics, with bigger numbers
- A race to collect your followers faster than the other guy for your epic spell with a large ritual modifier to make it cheap
- Weird temporal games of "I freeze time and do this!" "BUT WAIT I FROZE IT FIRST AND DO THIS!" which is basically what Pun-Pun does, only it takes a lot more levels to get there.

Fan
2008-10-08, 07:58 PM
Is epic spellcasting allowed?

If so, how long do you have to prepare?

Epic spellcasting is IN, and I have max ranks, and a magic item for Knowldge aracna.:smallbiggrin:
@: Astral fire?: The Gm has nerfed time stop, but allowed clerity. Also I WAS considering takign epic Leader ship, Undead mastery, and Legendary leader, but that would only get a bunch of low levels that I couldn't boost (well over Ten thousand with the apprpriate charisma), and iI was even considerign adding in a rod of leadership for the storming of the gates. But, I couldn't hurt the majority fo his followers with them havign DR unless I tokk Marshal, and Order of the purple dragon with Chargers.

AstralFire
2008-10-08, 07:59 PM
Epic spellcasting is IN, and I have max ranks, and a magic item for Knowldge aracna.:smallbiggrin:
@: Astral fire?: The Gm has nerfed time stop, but allowed clerity. Also I WAS considering takign epic Leader ship, Undead mastery, and Legendary leader, but that would only get a bunch of low levels that I couldn't boost (well over Ten thousand with the apprpriate charisma), and iI was even considerign adding in a rod of leadership for the storming of the gates. But, I couldn't hurt the majority fo his followers with them havign DR unless I tokk Marshal, and Order of the purple dragon with Chargers.

No, no. You don't need followers to fight. You need them to act as assistants in your epic spell. You get a very large reduction to the spellcraft DC for a sufficient number of assistants.

Fan
2008-10-08, 08:03 PM
No, no. You don't need followers to fight. You need them to act as assistants in your epic spell. You get a very large reduction to the spellcraft DC for a sufficient number of assistants.
He also nerfed that with no migitation for more than 1/2 of the spells DC!
GAH!
I was also considering makign epic permaent runes through the use of the Rune smith PRC, and the abuse of craft epic arms, and weapons.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-08, 08:04 PM
Just out of curiosity, at level 70 how long do rounds take?

Fan
2008-10-08, 08:06 PM
Just out of curiosity, at level 70 how long do rounds take?
Like two days with time stop cheese, and multi magic feats.

Flickerdart
2008-10-08, 08:08 PM
Item Familiar the hell out of your Spellcraft. By level 70, that will be a hefty bonus. 73 base, plus your INT modifier which should be gigantic, plus Item Familiar, plus Skill Focus, plus whatever else you can find. Simple base ranks won't do.

Maximize your epic casting and you win.

JeminiZero
2008-10-08, 08:08 PM
The following is a bunch of epic casting advice Emperor Tippy once posted somewhere, which I saved to a text file. Because as he likes to say, Tippy = Win.



But anyways. There are 2 basic approaches to epic casting

First up: Rituals
You create an Epic Spell that permanently summons a Couatl.
The DC pre mitigation is 150 (30x5).
Increase the Casting time to 10 minutes (-18).
Increase the Casting time by 86 days (-132).
The spell now is free to create and has a final DC of 0.

The Draw back of this spell is the time required. If you have used arcane genesis to get your own personal demiplane with a much faster time trait that isn't really a problem but otherwise I recommend the following:
Hire 15 level 9 casters to sacrifice 1 5th level spell slot per casting. And keep the 10 minute casting time. At level 21 you should be able to cast 2 Epic Spells per day.

So day 1 you hire 15 level 9 casters and gain 2 Couatl's (which cast as level 9 clerics meaning 5th level spell slots).
Day 2 you hire 13 casters and gain 2 more Couatl's. And so on. By day 8 you don't need to hire any more casters.

Repeat the above until you have 30 Couatl's (so 15 days worth of casting).

Now you make your next epic spell. This is like the one above but permanently summons a solar instead of a Couatl. You need 30 Couatl's to mitigate the DC down to 0 with a 10 minute casting time.

Every 10 days of summoned solars allows you to mitigate away another 340 points of the spell craft DC. After 30 days you can mitigate away 1,290 points of the spell craft DC.


Now make whatever spells you want and mitigate away the costs. Permanent buffs are very nice. Now let's assume that you did the ritual thing.

Some good spells are the following:
Immunity to all Spells:
DC 970 pre mitigation (use the Ward seed and don't choose the radius option). This includes immunity to all epic spells as well.
Resistance to all Normal attacks:
DC 1,290 pre mitigation (again using the ward seed). This gives you resistance to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage of 125 points per turn.
Sonic Bolt:
DC 1,290 Pre mitigation. This uses the energy seed and gives you the spell like ability to create a Sonic Bolt that deals 633d6 damage (range 300 feet, reflex half) at will. But we only need 300d6 damage. Which allows us to add 312 to our caster level check to beat SR and change those d6's to d20's.
Epic Armor:
Use the armor seed and you can gain +24 AC of one of the nice types (Deflection, Luck, Divine, Profane, insight, etc). Get a few different versions (1 for each type) and you can end up with an AC of 120 just from this spell.

Those are just some ideas.

But the real power comes with the Origin of the Species spells. You make a creature that can breed in like 5 seconds and that has every possible ability you can think of as an Ex ability, including the ability to instantaneously mind switch with 1 willing person. You then make it extra specially loyal to you and order the mind switch. All the sudden you are in a body that makes the gods whimper in fear. Although for the really good ones you need to be able to mitigate a DC of around 20,000.

No I am not suggesting that you actually go out and use Epic magic like this but that is how you do the uber broken Epic casting. And even this stuff (besides the Origin of the Species) pales beside some of the stuff you can do (I have moved stars around before.).

monty
2008-10-08, 08:11 PM
The following is a bunch of epic casting advice Emperor Tippy once posted somewhere, which I saved to a text file. Because as he likes to say, Tippy = Win.

He already said there's a houserule. No more than 1/2 DC mitigation.

Fan
2008-10-08, 08:13 PM
He already said there's a houserule. No more than 1/2 DC mitigation.

I CAN manage a Dc of up to 500 though with my spells, and equipment. (epic sill item boosters, and Epic skill focus!)

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-08, 08:16 PM
Like two days with time stop cheese, and multi magic feats.

Sweet! I never knew epic games were so epic! :smallbiggrin:

JeminiZero
2008-10-08, 08:17 PM
He already said there's a houserule. No more than 1/2 DC mitigation.

Gah! It took longer to find that text file than I expected.

Edit: I am largely ignorant on the full mechanics on epic casting. But if you can use aid another on epic casting, then resort to Nanomachines?

Copacetic
2008-10-08, 08:18 PM
For those wondering, FF Fanboy is talking about this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93214) thread. You know, for home-ruling convienence.

jcsw
2008-10-08, 08:23 PM
I CAN manage a Dc of up to 500 though with my spells, and equipment. (epic sill item boosters, and Epic skill focus!)

The issue is that a DC 0 has major advantages over DC 500, even though you can do DC 500 easily. The advantage being zero research time and cost.
Try making a demiplane so you can research spells in relative peace.

Also try to snag every immunity you possibly can.
Most important: Immunity to damage, Immunity to death effects, Immunity to Fort Saves (Like an undead), Immunity to dispelling (Requires an epic spell to ward against all those spells). Immunity to Vision (Invisibility), Immunity to Detection (by other players mostly). Immunity to Mind Affecting.

By the way, if it wasn't already obvious, I suggest you don't specialize. It's level 70, you don't need to specialize for extra spells.

Fan
2008-10-08, 08:28 PM
The issue is that a DC 0 has major advantages over DC 500, even though you can do DC 500 easily. The advantage being zero research time and cost.
Try making a demiplane so you can research spells in relative peace.

Also try to snag every immunity you possibly can.
Most important: Immunity to damage, Immunity to death effects, Immunity to Fort Saves (Like an undead), Immunity to dispelling (Requires an epic spell to ward against all those spells). Immunity to Vision (Invisibility), Immunity to Detection (by other players mostly). Immunity to Mind Affecting.

By the way, if it wasn't already obvious, I suggest you don't specialize. It's level 70, you don't need to specialize for extra spells.

I'm not speiclizing ,and i will haev to thank who ever mentioned tippy as I just remebered his anti ossmium bomb technuiqe.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-08, 08:30 PM
He already said there's a houserule. No more than 1/2 DC mitigation.
Additionally, that post of Tippy's has a few things off (Couatls cast as Sorcerer-9's, not Cleric-9's in 3.5), and he's doing it the long way (starting out with rituals for Couatls, using the higher DC Solars rather than the lower DC Planetars).

For something a little closer to right....

A single Wizard-21 (generalist), working alone, uninterrupted....

1) Get your first set of ritualists.
Every day for 20 days...
a) Prepare four copies each of: Magic Circle Against Law (3rd), Dimensional Anchor (4th), Dismissal (5th), Planar Binding (6th), Quickened Dispel Magic (7th), Moment of Prescience (8th); this leaves you with your 1st, 2nd, 9th, and bonus spell slots for personal defense.
b) Planar Bind 4 Couatls (with their saves, you should have a 95% chance of Calling and trapping one on any given attempt; applying Moment of Prescience to the opposed charisma check to negotiate, and you've got a 95% of binding any individual to your service for 21 days) to aid you in all the spells you cast over the next 21 days. You get approximately 90% success rate on these Callings (technically, the expected amount is 90.25%). If something goes wrong, you use a Quickened Dispel Magic (to get rid of your own Dimensional Anchor) and Dismissal (to get rid of the Couatl). If the Couatl saves against the Dismissal, you use a 9th level spell on it the next round (quite frankly, at this point, a standard Couatl shouldn't pose any noticeable threat).
c) Rest up to recover spells
Now, statistically, at the 20-day mark, you'll have 20*4*0.90=72 Couatls in your service. If we want a margin of safety, we say 80% of them stick around, for 64 Couatls.
We maintain this for a while, to keep the supply of Couatls up. After all, each one casts as a Sorcerer-9 (4th level spell slots, for -7 to a Spellcraft DC for an Epic spell; we have a -448 spellcraft modifier this way).
2) Get your permanent set of ritualists
a) Craft a DC 0 Epic spell (no gp, xp, or time cost to research) to Permanently (*5) Summon (base DC 14 for CR 2 Outsider) Planetars (CR 16, so +14 CR over 2, so +28 DC); one Planetar, Permanently Summoned, is thus a base Spellcraft DC of 5*(14+28)=210 - we can be Summoning Two of them initially (or can start summoning them after a ten-day warmup). If you max out Spellcraft and Kn(Arcana), You have two Epic spell slots at this level - and Couatl's have more than two 4th level spell slots each day, so this is fine. You are now picking up four Planetars each day - and each Planetar casts as a Cleric-17 - which means two 9th level spell slots (-17 mitigation per Planetar, twice per day). After three days of this (day 23), you now have 12 Planetars (9th level spells) and 64 Couatls (4th level spells) for -652 mitigation... Permanently Summoning three Planetars at a time is DC 630. We now research another DC 0 Epic spell to do so (requiring 12 9th level spell slots, and 64 4th level spell slots). This takes no time, no xp, and no gp. So on day 24, you're Permanently Summoning 3 Planetars at a time, twice per day, for six planetars per day. At the end of day 25, you now have 24 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for 856 in mitigation... which is good for four Planetars per casting, so research another spell, and get 8 Planetars a day. At the end of day 27, you now have 40 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for -1,128 in mitigation - enough for five planetars a casting, for 10 a day. At the end of day 28, you have 50 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for -1,298 in mitigation - enough for 6 Planetars/casting, and 12/day. At the end of day 29, you have 62 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for -1,502 in mitigation - enough for 7 Planetars per casting, and 14 per day. At the end of day 30, you have 76 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for 1,740 in mitigation - enough for 8 Planetars per casting and thus 16 per day.

This is exponential growth. Every 12 (and 1/3rd, roughly) Planetars gives you space for another planetar per casting, for two more planetars per day. You can use this method to get arbitrarily high DC's in surprisingly short timeframes. A little fun with spreadsheets, and at day 60, you've got 8668 Permanently Summoned Planetars (and 64 Called Couatls, but that's change at this point - still, my calculations include them) for more than 147,804
in mitigation by spell slots. At day 90, that's 783,338 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and 13,317,194 in Mitigation. At day 120, that's 70,644,176 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and 1,200,951,440 in Mitigation. At day 365, you're looking at approximately 6.54*10^23 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and approximately 1.11*10^25 in mitigation.

What can you do with 11,100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 in mitigation?

But that's immaterial with the listed house-rules.

A few fun things:

As written, you can apply Persistent Spell to Time Stop if you've got a 15th level spell slot - which, at 70th, is easy to do. For that matter, at 70th, you could get a Quickened Persistent Time Stop in a 19th level spell slot, or an Extended(Persistent(Quickened Time Stop)) in a 20th level spell slot.

What good is that, you ask?

Well, you get 48 hours uninterrupted. As an Arcanist, that lets you prepare spells. Play an Elan, ready an action to cast Time Stop as soon as you get out of Time Stop, and you have an infinite amount of time, at will, to do whatever. Regardless of other considerations, you can "go nova" whenever you want, as a full recharge is a swift-action away.

That nifty Epic rod that reduces XP costs 1/day goes very well with True Creation (research it, or get a feat that handles it) when you've literally got all the time in the world.

Really, that high up, you're looking at a game of chess, and the dice don't generally mean much....

tyckspoon
2008-10-08, 08:45 PM
g
..day 90, that's 783,338 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and 13,317,194 in Mitigation. At day 120, that's 70,644,176 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and 1,200,951,440 in Mitigation. At day 365, you're looking at approximately 6.54*10^23 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and approximately 1.11*10^25 in mitigation.


Of course, if you've managed to get this far, you have somewhere between enough Planetars to populate your own Celestial country and several orders of magnitude more Planetars than there are other sentient beings in the known area of most Prime Material gameworlds.. at which point you probably don't need the Spellcraft mitigation for anything more than entertaining yourself or possibly launching a takeover of alternate universes. Or creating an entirely new alternate universe, completely populated, just so you can enjoy taking it over.

monty
2008-10-08, 08:48 PM
What can you do with slightly more than a mole of planetars? Well, you could do some interesting chemistry experiments...

Jack_Simth
2008-10-08, 08:52 PM
What can you do with slightly more than a mole of planetars? Well, you could do some interesting chemistry experiments...
Yeah, Exponential Growth does tend to go "bang"...

Of course, if you've managed to get this far, you have somewhere between enough Planetars to populate your own Celestial country and several orders of magnitude more Planetars than there are other sentient beings in the known area of most Prime Material gameworlds.. at which point you probably don't need the Spellcraft mitigation for anything more than entertaining yourself or possibly launching a takeover of alternate universes. Or creating an entirely new alternate universe, completely populated, just so you can enjoy taking it over.
Or in this case, "Big Bang".

Rei_Jin
2008-10-08, 08:57 PM
Okay, I've played from both sides (PC and DM) in one of Belials High Epic challenges. You need to be creative if you're using a spellcaster, without trying to deliberately break things. Remember though, that what will win you the day is good tactics, combined with good character builds, and a little bit of luck.

Work out who will be taking what role within the party, and work together. Come up with some strategies, and work towards them. An epic spell that casts Heal on you up to 6 times when required is a good example. Another one that casts True Resurrection on you should you die is a good plan.

There are many spells that you can, and should use. Use your imagination, and if you need some help with specific spells, do what you can and then ask for help. You'll be surprised by what comes up.

Fan
2008-10-08, 09:35 PM
Okay, I've played from both sides (PC and DM) in one of Belials High Epic challenges. You need to be creative if you're using a spellcaster, without trying to deliberately break things. Remember though, that what will win you the day is good tactics, combined with good character builds, and a little bit of luck.

Work out who will be taking what role within the party, and work together. Come up with some strategies, and work towards them. An epic spell that casts Heal on you up to 6 times when required is a good example. Another one that casts True Resurrection on you should you die is a good plan.

There are many spells that you can, and should use. Use your imagination, and if you need some help with specific spells, do what you can and then ask for help. You'll be surprised by what comes up.

I have exprimented thoug, and have dug through my various PDF's, and other broken soruces, but i came up with nadda on this level.

Zeful
2008-10-08, 09:52 PM
So you don't know how to make a 70th level character or is it something else? I don't understand what you want.

Fan
2008-10-08, 09:57 PM
So you don't know how to make a 70th level character or is it something else? I don't understand what you want.

I understand how to make one its making it cheesy when my normal cheeseball options are denied to me. (Ie. My starmantle cloak, Extrodinary spell aim AMF combo has been nulled as well as quite a few other things,.)

RTGoodman
2008-10-08, 10:01 PM
Well, aside from needing Epic Spellcasting, that free 6 LA/RHD is going to need to be filled. There are a lot of templates you could go about stacking to get what you want. Dark, Mineral Warrior, and stuff like that are all cheap (+1 LA), and I'm sure there are enough of them for each character type that you'll get a relatively optimized character (though, at ECL 70, race and template aren't going to be that important).

If you go the spellcaster route, I'd definitely try to go for a standard (cheesy) Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage/Loremaster/Fatespinner-type character and then just slap on the Lich or Demilich template so you can't be killed as easily. That is, unless this deity your fighting knows about your phylactery, but if so you don't really have much of a chance either way. Seriously. Deities get some (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm) crazy (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm) stuff (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineMinionsDomainsSpells.htm).

Fan
2008-10-08, 10:22 PM
Well, aside from needing Epic Spellcasting, that free 6 LA/RHD is going to need to be filled. There are a lot of templates you could go about stacking to get what you want. Dark, Mineral Warrior, and stuff like that are all cheap (+1 LA), and I'm sure there are enough of them for each character type that you'll get a relatively optimized character (though, at ECL 70, race and template aren't going to be that important).

If you go the spellcaster route, I'd definitely try to go for a standard (cheesy) Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage/Loremaster/Fatespinner-type character and then just slap on the Lich or Demilich template so you can't be killed as easily. That is, unless this deity your fighting knows about your phylactery, but if so you don't really have much of a chance either way. Seriously. Deities get some (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm) crazy (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm) stuff (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineMinionsDomainsSpells.htm).

Actually he nulled the nat 20 on everything part, and I can by pass divine immunties if I go the origin of speices route presented, and just mind swap their faces no save, or SR.

jcsw
2008-10-08, 10:48 PM
Like I said, get immunity to everything.

Illithid Savant your way through...

Immunity to Damage: Steal Troll's regen then get immunity to fire and acid by stealing fire immunity and acid immunity (acidborn template?). (Or just take Tarrasque... you could probably do that at level 70)

Immunity to Death/Mind Affecting: Illithi-lich?

Immunity to Dispelling: Epic Warding Spells.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-09, 12:10 AM
You could make a Death Knight (MM2, +5 LA) for quite a few immunities, plus you won't be affected by most things that specifically effect undead, such as Turning. Say he was created by a Dread Necromancer 8+ with the Corpsecrafter feat in a Desecrated area with an evil altar, and get the feat Improved Toughness, for 1d12+7 HP per level. You'd get SR 80, which is considerably better than most other templates which can't grant SR higher than a certain amount.

Another idea would be to make a Variant Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=1), probably pick a creature from a Fiendish Codex, Fiend Folio, or one of the later Monster Manuals as the parent demon, and note that any outsider with the evil subtype would be sufficient. Some of those can give you a considerable Dex, Con, and Int bonus, as well as many other benefits that would probably insignificant at this level.

I'd probably make a Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Rainbow Servant 10/ Abjurant Champion 5/ etc. and end up with 20th level spellcasting in both classes. Use Martial Arcanist from Abjurant Champion with Persistent Divine Power to get a Wizard caster level of 70 plus Orange Prism Ioun Stone plus Ring of Arcane Might. With Epic Spellcasting you'll get twice as many epic spells/day for your Kn: Arcana ranks due to having two arcane spellcasting classes with 9th level spells, and Int will be your only spellcasting stat apart from a minimum Wis score of 13 +6 Enhancement for access to 9th level Cleric spells. You could then spend Beguiler spell slots to use Twin Spell and Repeat Spell on Celerity, so each casting occurs four times.

Personally I wouldn't even bother playing at this level. The last epic character I made was level 23, I got six full attacks every round, one fewer in a surprise round, each for 16 attacks, and each attack hit for around 400 damage and almost couldn't miss, and every full attack could be against a target up to around 1000 feet away from the last one, or on the same target if it was still alive, and I could Great Cleave anything within 20 feet and then continue the full attack against that target. Nothing could stop me, when an opponent had a Starmantle Cloak and a BoED Retributive Amulet I'd Slight of Hand both before I'd attack them, and I never lost initiative. It wasn't even fun. I leveled up once and spent over an hour just on my attack and damage bonuses, and the next time I leveled up I didn't even bother changing them. Plus I'm not even going to get into the DBZ comparison of what-happens-if-we-ignore-this, and the why-doesn't-another-epic-party-show-up-to-fix-this-same-problem fallacy.

The Glyphstone
2008-10-09, 12:38 AM
Despite my :smallmad: at the idea of going for outside help on this, I've got to say...is anyone actually reading the thread linked to, and Belial's comments on what he's changed or banned? It's not that much to read right now.

For instance, Divine Power caps your Base Attack Bonus at +20, at the same time you stop gaining BAB anyways. There's also some significant other caps put in place on how much you can get from stat boosters, and such.

BobVosh
2008-10-09, 01:08 AM
Why hasn't anyone said he should have fun abusing multiple hierophant and spellcasting stuff? Ultimate magus 20 (extend for metamagic fun although he has most auto-meta at this point) cleric+wizard dual progression, throw druid in for fun too with the RotW heirophant. Then he has sorc (beguiler, whatever) wizard, druid, and cleric spellcasting at epic. 70 base ranks with each knowledge means 28 epic spells per day.

500 spellcraft gets some pretty silly spells. Espically with rituals.

For metamagic he can and will have DMM and UltMagus stuff. More feats than you can shake a stick at. MAD on mental stats but with WBL he is rich.

Lich pixie for the win :smallbiggrin:

Beyond that, how do you NOT have divine ranks? DC 120 perform check to make someone worship you. 73 ranks. +30 item (still non epic.) +20 from char. Make it on a 0. Get that stupid 3ed horn that can be heard from 10 miles around. Better yet, convert planes with a spell that makes a horn that can be heard on a whole plane(will need to ritual a spell that effects this large of an area). Trumpet a load of followers.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-09, 01:29 AM
Ok, I found the link to the original thread, and read over the houserules and restrictions. I even posted a few questions regarding those changes.

You can still take the feat Quick Recovery (LoM) and cast Greater Celerity, spend the move-action granted to remove the Dazed effect, and spend the standard-action granted on whatever you want.

I would probably play a Half-Celestial Saint Human, Unarmed Swordsage, with Vow of Poverty and Epic Vow of Poverty (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-554563). Definitely gain spellcasting, probably use Jade Phoenix Mage, and definitely take Permanent Emanation: (Widened) Antimagic Field since being Divine Rank 0 from EVoP you'd be unhindered by it. Note that against a deity opponent that wouldn't matter, but against anything else at that level of play it would be absolutely necessary, unless there's an EVoP ability I missed that does this. Note that EVoP at level 70 would grant a total of twenty five additional epic feats, though they must be chosen from the list provided.

Talic
2008-10-09, 02:21 AM
Definately max your Ranks in full progression casters.

Wizard/Sorceror/Beguiler/etc pick 1
Cleric/Favored Soul/etc pick 1
Druid

That's the good stuff there. Now, you max your epic spells, your spells per day, adn the like. Auto quicken to level 6, so that you still have some spells to blow a standard action on. Take the extra quickened spell feat a few times, so you can go hog wild with that. So, let's see...

3 wizard/3 archivist/10 Mystic Theurge/14True necromancer = first 30 levels
Add in practiced spellcaster, and you're CL 30 with both.

From there:
20 Druid/5 Archmage/5 Hierophant = Next 30 levels

Now, you've got CL 29 Druid, CL 30 Archivist, CL 35 Wizard, epix spells for all 3. 73 ranks = a lot of spells. Int/Wis MAD, Con useful. If you focus Druid casting on defensive spells, and Cleric/Wizard on offense, you can get by with a 20 Wis, and pump mostly Int. This means that 5 wishes gets you golden.

Final levels?? Master of Many Forms 10? Druid 21-30? Fighter 1-10 for 6 epic fighter feats, used during wildshape?

Alternately, you can go Sorceror 4/Favored Soul 4/Theurge 10/True Necro 2/Theurge 11-20/Druid 20/Archmage 5/Hierophant 5/XXX 10

This will give you a Charisma focused build, better for Diplocheese to get a good follower base. Still go for Wis 20, Cha to the high heavens.

Now for the 6 LA Buyoff? Necropolitan and 6 levels of the Evolved Undead Template (Libris Mortis). +12 Str/+12 Cha, 6 spell like abilities, fast healing, natural armor, and undead strengths and weaknesses. For even higher Charisma, forego some of those last 10 levels and make a Grave-touched Ghoul Pixie With as many Evolved undead levels as you can fit (Pixie is around 4...Which gives you 12 more LA for Evolved undead... Total of +34 Str and 32 Cha.) Nymph will net you +16 cha, but will add Cha to AC and saves. Not worth it, since at this level, anything that hits you, will probably kill you, or leave you unaffected. However, the +32 Cha? Let's Look at the numbers:

18 (base) +6 (pixie) +5 (Inherent wishes) + 5 (level boosts to 20) +2 (ghoul) + 24 (Evolved) + 12 (item) = 72 Cha, or a +31 modifier.

Now, bonus lowbie spells:

72 Cha = 8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6 for Sorceror
72 Cha = 8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6 for Favored Soul

So now, we're looking at 38 bonus spells from levels 7-9. Those are our "lowbie spells", as we have another 21 or so epic spells.

Heck, if you really wanna go for fun? Swap our Archmage/Hierophant for either A) another 20 Cha or B) Geometer 10 for goodness to druid and no ACP.

I'd prob go for A, as a 92 Cha is: 11/10/10/10/10/9/9/9

Which is 54 bonus spells from level 7-9 (18 level 7, 18 level 8, 18 level 9). Heck, Auto quicken those too. If you need a standard action spell, throw a metamagic on one. At level 70, you should be getting 6-7 spells a round, minimum. That'll get you a +41 to save DC's (+45 with epic spell focuses, +47 if you add in evil spell focuses), or a DC 66 Evil spell of level 9. Now go all Save or die on your opponents about 6 times, and throw an epic owie in there for good measure...

Or go Damage. And blast someone with Enough maximized orbs of force to choke a donkey.

Or go melee.

Tauric Template Abuse with a 6 LA buyoff? Start with a 90 Str, 80 Con, with no LA at all, and 2 spare LA to add if you feel like it. Add in +20 to hit, +15 to saves, Ignore concealment miss chance, Fast healing 12, immunity to most of the major elements, resistances to the others, SR of 20+HD, and enough SLA's to choke a donkey.

Now go Fighter 6/Warhulk 10/Hulking Hurler 3/ToB 20/Bloodstorm Blade 10/Master Thrower 4/Wu Jen 17

Now, focus on free action maneuvers, Items that give you free actions, and throwing rocks for around 80 million damage each at anything within LOS.

Wu Jen 17 = Colossal, add in Natural Heavyweight, +5 wishes for Str, +5 Stat boost to Str, +12 Str item, on top of a 90 or so base = 112 Str, Colossal, Quadruped, Double Carrying Capacity.

Now add that it can throw anything in the game with up to its medium load...

Medium load for 22 Str = 346. x4^9 (to make it for 112 Str) = 90,701,824 lb

x24 for Colossal quadruped = 2,176,843,776 lb

If he's throwing a spiky rock, it's treated as double weight.

x2 Jagged = 4,353,687,552 lb
-400 pounds (first 5d6 damage) = 4,353,687,152
divided by 200 (per 1d6 damage) = 21,768,435
+ the initial 5d6 = 21,768,440d6 + str etc etc (range = LOS)
Average damage of just the D6's = 76,189,540

Now, anything that goes ethereal negates all that. Still a 5 rock assault (with the same rock) would net 380,947,700 damage.

2 full attacks (time stands still)? = 761,895,400

Add in a 3rd? (Belt of Battle)? 1,142,843,100

There's over a billion damage, and that is massively NOT optimizing... Or taking into account the additional x16 for the +20 Str from War Hulk.

toddex
2008-10-09, 04:12 AM
Like I said, get immunity to everything.

Illithid Savant your way through...

Immunity to Damage: Steal Troll's regen then get immunity to fire and acid by stealing fire immunity and acid immunity (acidborn template?). (Or just take Tarrasque... you could probably do that at level 70)

Immunity to Death/Mind Affecting: Illithi-lich?

Immunity to Dispelling: Epic Warding Spells.

Holy crap i had never heard of the illithid savvant! They sound awesome, almost like the villain from heroes, Sylar.

The Glyphstone
2008-10-09, 08:27 AM
...you mean the Illithid Savant from Savage Species? the one that's NOT on the list of approved books? And how people are suggesting all kinds of crazy templates that aren't in the SRD?

I'm just going to stop stressing about this and make my character, rather than keep reading about a metric buttton of combos that are either A) already prohibited by the rules, B) involve an Epic spell such as Origin that will obviously be banned by Belial, or C) have some dumb combo like the Osmium bomb that doesn't actually work in the presence of a sane GM.

monty
2008-10-09, 10:12 AM
Auto quicken to level 6

Why not to 9? He has more than enough feats for it.


Hulking Hurler stuff

The problem with that is War Hulk automatically drops you to 0 ranks in all Int, Wis, and Cha based skills - which means no epic magic. If you're trying to fight a deity without epic magic, you're pre-screwed short of serious cheese.

Fan
2008-10-09, 03:23 PM
As for Talic the giant size neagted IS a problem, but we are being given 1 BILLION GP, so we should be fine if I just take an Staff of giant size, and your right I DID forget the wish inherent bonus stuff, hell with the bonus XP I could give an additional +5 luck bonus to Cha as well.

Douglas
2008-10-09, 03:45 PM
No, we only get 100 million gp. Still a lot of money, though.

Anyway, no matter how you try to split up the bonus types the house rules say you can't get more than +20 to any single ability score from magic, not counting inherent bonuses and they're capped at +5 by normal RAW. So no matter what tricks and shenanigans you try to pull, magic (shapeshifting included) cannot improve your ability scores by more than +25.

Fan
2008-10-09, 03:53 PM
No, we only get 100 million gp. Still a lot of money, though.

Anyway, no matter how you try to split up the bonus types the house rules say you can't get more than +20 to any single ability score from magic, not counting inherent bonuses and they're capped at +5 by normal RAW. So no matter what tricks and shenanigans you try to pull, magic (shapeshifting included) cannot improve your ability scores by more than +25.

Actually most of it comes from this single template that stacks with itself, and Pixie.... so for our game it would work.... and if it doesn't HULKING HURLER!~

Handsome Rob
2008-10-10, 12:20 AM
C) have some dumb combo like the Osmium bomb that doesn't actually work in the presence of a sane GM.

Assuming your GM is sane (and considering he has chosen to GM a level 70 campaign, he's probably borderline at best), he won't remain so beyond the surprise round of this campaign.

Actually you should probably give him a call now, to make sure that trying to create a sufficient challenge for your super-deific character hasn't reduced him to a mindless gibbering wreck.

Douglas
2008-10-10, 12:37 AM
You obviously don't know much about him. Belial does this sort of thing regularly. The BBEG this party is going to fight is already statted out - a rank 19 greater deity. He has previously done essentially the same thing with a level 74 party vs a cosmic being who had already handily massacred the level 66 party that faced her the first time he tried it. The character in my sig was for that playtest, and the outcome was still uncertain when real life intruded and prevented Belial from completing the playtest.

And that's just the times I know about specifically; I'm quite certain he's done a lot more than that at similarly high levels.

streakster
2008-10-10, 12:47 AM
Druid 20/Planar Shepherd 10/Master of Many Forms 10/Cleric 20/Warshaper 10 (or LA).


Archivist 20 / Wizard 20/ Initiate of the seven veils 7/ Incantrix 10/Psion 20/ LA 3.

Fan
2008-10-10, 09:20 AM
Druid 20/Planar Shepherd 10/Master of Many Forms 10/Cleric 20/Warshaper 10 (or LA).


Archivist 20 / Wizard 20/ Initiate of the seven veils 7/ Incantrix 10/Psion 20/ LA 3.

I actually already have Druid, and MoMF in my build.... Infernal beast of pure demonic energy FTW!
but, i doubt I could use War shaper as I have NO IDEA what it is. :sweatdrop: Also Planar shepard is in the Planar Handbook right?

streakster
2008-10-10, 09:35 AM
I actually already have Druid, and MoMF in my build.... Infernal beast of pure demonic energy FTW!
but, i doubt I could use War shaper as I have NO IDEA what it is. :sweatdrop: Also Planar shepard is in the Planar Handbook right?

Planar Shepherd Guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=709233)

Faiths of Eberron.


Warshaper was thrown in to enhance shapeshifting. It's in CW. Not great, but it fit and the build was broken anyway.

Fan
2008-10-10, 09:41 AM
Ah I see... I think if I took the nature domain with the Clericness, and Natural spell I could og crazy as an Infernal from the EPH (epic players handbook.).:smallbiggrin:
this would give me well over 60 in each of my physical stats, and if i were to focus on mental ones i could manage 80 in my mental ones (cept charisma.... no one likes charisma.)

monty
2008-10-10, 10:31 AM
Ah I see... I think if I took the nature domain with the Clericness, and Natural spell I could og crazy as an Infernal from the EPH (epic players handbook.).:smallbiggrin:
this would give me well over 60 in each of my physical stats, and if i were to focus on mental ones i could manage 80 in my mental ones (cept charisma.... no one likes charisma.)

I like charisma...

jcsw
2008-10-10, 10:54 AM
I like charisma...

Well no one likes you either!
---

It might help if someone could provide a list of things that typical deities are immune to, so that we'd know that, for example, releasing a Split Ray Occular Chaining Repeating Twinned Echoing Slay Living three times a turn wouldn't work because deities have immunity to death effects. (Although releasing a barrage of death rays from your eyes is so cool I'd do it anyway)

monty
2008-10-10, 10:57 AM
Well no one likes you either!
---

No, see, my Charisma is so high that everybody likes me.

Or maybe that was the Mass Charm Person. Oh well, either way.

monty
2008-10-10, 01:53 PM
Ok, I looked through the Hulking Hurler thread, and this post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=16397174&postcount=935) caught my eye...

If your DM allows it, play a Symbiotic Paragon Half-Machine Savage Voidmind 29-headed Lernaean Cyro-Kaiju Quorbound Half-Iron Golem Chimeric Warbeast advanced-Giant Squid-Tauric 0-Corrupted Draconic Half-Machine Stonebone Woodling Mineral Warrior Tarterian (Shator) Paragon Remade Voidmind Lolth-touched Kord-Blooded Lost Savage Half-Brass Golem Quorbred Spirit of the Woods Warbeast Blood Ghoul advanced-Squid Barbarian 1/Frenzied Berserker 1/Hulking Hurler 2.

Throw a universe at the god. It'll be a light load, easily (this guy can throw about 10^85 lbs, and the mass of our universe is estimated somewhere around 10^52 kg - many orders of magnitude to spare).

Oh, and no War Hulk, and you still have 56 levels left. Plenty of room for epic magic. I think. I don't know if any of those templates will stop you from doing it.

The Glyphstone
2008-10-10, 01:54 PM
Well no one likes you either!
---

It might help if someone could provide a list of things that typical deities are immune to, so that we'd know that, for example, releasing a Split Ray Occular Chaining Repeating Twinned Echoing Slay Living three times a turn wouldn't work because deities have immunity to death effects. (Although releasing a barrage of death rays from your eyes is so cool I'd do it anyway)

Check page 3 of the recruiting thread linked to above, I think that's where Belial gave the list of Deity traits.



1) Max roll in everything except d20. They roll 1d10+10 there. Chance roll (d100) is rolled normally.
2) Divine Immunities, can be overcome by higher rank deities: Immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form, not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage, immune to mind-affecting effects, immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration, immune to effects that imprison or banish them. Such effects include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, and turning and rebuking. Ereshkigal specifically is not immune to Banishment and similar effects.
3) Divine Immunities, cannot be overcome: 2 energy types of their choice, Antimagic, Dispel Magic, being called/controlled through Gate or Summon spells, do not age, do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. Some deities might have more immunities.
4) Spell resistance 32 + 1/2 HD + DvR. Some deities might have higher SR.
5) 5 domains, CL equal to HD + DvR (currently capped at 75 for this test)
6) 5 + DvR Salient Abilities
7) All senses (including touch) extent to 1 mile / Rank. E.g. Ereshkigal can smell, touch, see, hear, taste and darkvision up to 19 miles from her person.
8) Remote Sense up to 20 different locations at once up to 19 miles wide anywhere in the Multiverse, penetrating all barriers except Divine abilities and Epic Spells. Remote sensing can only be used on or around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs. This means Ereshkigal is continiously sensing everything said in this thread.
9) Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.
10) When performing an action within its portfolio, a greater deity can perform any action as a free action, as long as the check DC is equal to or less than 30. It can do so 20 times a round. This does not interfere with any other free/swift actions the deity might take.
11) Greater deities can create magic items of any cost, including artifacts, without needing the related crafting feats. They still need to pay XP and GP normally.
12) Greater Deities have an aura extending 1 mile/rank. This aura may cause daze, fright or resolve. DC is 10 + the deity’s rank + the deity’s Charisma modifier.
13) Greater Deities can alter their size from fine to 1600 ft tall. No stats except their strength score and lifting capacity change due to this.
14) Greater Deities can use Greater Teleport and Plane Shift to travel and Wish to change reality according to their portofolio. E.g. a death deity could replicate necromancy effects, a nature deity effects that control the weather, a magic deity effects that control other spells and so on. They can't use ANY other uses of Wish not in their Portofolio. This replaces the crazyness of Alter Reality with which by RAW a deity could do pretty much anything.
15) Greater Deities can speak everywhere they can Remote Sense
16) Greater Deities have an Outer Plane domain in which they're pretty much omnipotent. Don't fight them there.

Lord Mancow
2008-10-10, 05:02 PM
What can you do with 11,100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 in mitigation?


Animate a planet?

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-10-11, 01:15 AM
That's a bad idea. Then the deity uses Hand of Death to kill the planet with no save. :smalltongue:

Talic
2008-10-11, 01:29 AM
Why not to 9? He has more than enough feats for it.

Later on in my dissertation for spontaneous casting:
Which is 54 bonus spells from level 7-9 (18 level 7, 18 level 8, 18 level 9). Heck, Auto quicken those too. If you need a standard action spell, throw a metamagic on one. At level 70, you should be getting 6-7 spells a round, minimum. That'll get you a +41 to save DC's (+45 with epic spell focuses, +47 if you add in evil spell focuses), or a DC 66 Evil spell of level 9. Now go all Save or die on your opponents about 6 times, and throw an epic owie in there for good measure...

As for why you wouldn't with prepared casters? You don't want everything quickened. Look at Arcane Spellsurge (SpC). If everything's quickened, you can't use your standard action to cast. Spontaneous casters can get around this with a +0 LA metamagic, such as Sanctum Spell. Automatically changes a swift/free spell to a standard action. Alternately, with a level of archmage, they could have a limited selection of SLA's to spam a standard action on.

monty
2008-10-11, 01:44 PM
Later on in my dissertation for spontaneous casting:
Which is 54 bonus spells from level 7-9 (18 level 7, 18 level 8, 18 level 9). Heck, Auto quicken those too. If you need a standard action spell, throw a metamagic on one. At level 70, you should be getting 6-7 spells a round, minimum. That'll get you a +41 to save DC's (+45 with epic spell focuses, +47 if you add in evil spell focuses), or a DC 66 Evil spell of level 9. Now go all Save or die on your opponents about 6 times, and throw an epic owie in there for good measure...

As for why you wouldn't with prepared casters? You don't want everything quickened. Look at Arcane Spellsurge (SpC). If everything's quickened, you can't use your standard action to cast. Spontaneous casters can get around this with a +0 LA metamagic, such as Sanctum Spell. Automatically changes a swift/free spell to a standard action. Alternately, with a level of archmage, they could have a limited selection of SLA's to spam a standard action on.

I don't see how that's a problem.

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#automaticQuickenSpell:

You may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots.

Emphasis mine. It's optional.

hamishspence
2008-10-11, 02:07 PM
It was nerfed heavily in 3.5 book Complete Arcane. My view is, most recent version of a feat, when feat is in optional sourcebooks (and epic handbook is such a book), override older versions.

The new version is 0 and 1st level for Automatic quicken spell, 1 level higher each time you taken the feat again.

So you would need 9 AQS feats to quicken all levels from 0 to 9.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-10-11, 02:30 PM
ELH and SRD is core. Even if it isn't, a lvl 70 has enough gp to buy more metamagic rods than he has spell slots.

hamishspence
2008-10-11, 02:43 PM
Epic might be core, but its core 3.0. I tend to go by books rather than SRDs, and if a book feat gets "corrected" in a later supplement, it was probably corrected for a very good reason.

So, from my point of view, the correct versions of the Automatic X spell fets, are the Complete Arcane ones.

Emperor Tippy
2008-10-11, 03:06 PM
It was nerfed heavily in 3.5 book Complete Arcane. My view is, most recent version of a feat, when feat is in optional sourcebooks (and epic handbook is such a book), override older versions.

The new version is 0 and 1st level for Automatic quicken spell, 1 level higher each time you taken the feat again.

So you would need 9 AQS feats to quicken all levels from 0 to 9.

Um no. Sorry but your flat out wrong. You only have to take it 3 times for auto quickening 9th level spells.

monty
2008-10-11, 03:09 PM
Um no. Sorry but your flat out wrong. You only have to take it 3 times for auto quickening 9th level spells.

Read the CArc version. That's what he's trying to argue.

hamishspence
2008-10-11, 03:09 PM
Again, only if you use the unmodified 3.0 version. I have Complete Arcane, written much later. And it clearly states- 0-1st level for first CQS feat, 2nd for nest feat, continuing up.

Later versions of feats override earlier ones.

Now if someone doesn't have book, thats fine, but if you do, there is no excuse for not using the updated version.

Douglas
2008-10-11, 03:11 PM
Um no. Sorry but your flat out wrong. You only have to take it 3 times for auto quickening 9th level spells.
Read Complete Arcane page 191. That is the more recent book, so that version of Automatic Quicken Spell takes precedence.

hamishspence
2008-10-11, 03:19 PM
of couse, there are some people who insist that Core, even broken core, overrides supplements, even ones that fix broken bits in core. Hopefully this will not be one of these cases.

Emperor Tippy
2008-10-11, 03:23 PM
Read Complete Arcane page 191. That is the more recent book, so that version of Automatic Quicken Spell takes precedence.

The newest source is the Epic Level Handbook. It has the more recent errata and Automatic Quicken hasn't been changed in it. The SRD also reflects the ELH's ruling not CA's. Not to mention that if you use the CA version then the feat is worthless.

Just getting 4th level spells quickened would take 4 feats. Your better off taking Improved Meta 4 times.

hamishspence
2008-10-11, 03:29 PM
Do erratas count as sources? ELH is much, much older than CArc.

It says in FAQs that Most Recent Source takes precedence, and absence of an update in errata is not the same as saying it hasn't been updated in a later source. Feats on old bboks are often not updated when a new version of the same feat comes out in a later book, that doesn't override the fact that the newest version of the feat exists.

Yes, it would be a bit underpowered. So? Spell power is underpowered in new version of archmage, that doesn't mean i can use old version, in 3,5, and say: not updated in errata to old book.

Douglas
2008-10-11, 03:30 PM
Epic Level Handbook (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/881690000) July 2002.

Complete Arcane (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/179250000) November 2004.

How, exactly, is the ELH more recent?

Yes, it has more recent errata, but errata does not generally include changes that were made by reprinting something in a whole new book.

The SRD uses the ELH version because Complete Arcane is not Open Game Content and the ELH is. This has nothing whatsoever to do with which version is more recent and correct to use.

hamishspence
2008-10-11, 03:33 PM
which reminds me: when did they make the ELH open content? it wasn't when it first came out, at least, I don't remeber anything on it saying so.

Douglas
2008-10-11, 03:36 PM
When they published the SRD, if nothing else. Whether it was open content before became irrelevant when this page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) went up.

AstralFire
2008-10-11, 03:36 PM
which reminds me: when did they make the ELH open content? it wasn't when it first came out, at least, I don't remeber anything on it saying so.

Well after 3.5, I want to say sometime in '06. Because really, almost no one uses it seriously ANYWAY without heavy houseruling. It's like PHB II: Electric Booga****youallpretensesatbalanceloo.

Douglas
2008-10-11, 03:39 PM
Just checked the Wayback Machine, and the SRD, epic included, has been out since at least April 2004.

hamishspence
2008-10-11, 03:41 PM
I'm one for books over net versions (I have much erratta and expanded content, but not online SRD.)

So, I'm inclined to say: its down in print.

As for epic spells, they do tend to the cheesy side. If they ruled that they couldn't be lowered past base seed DCs, they way other sources, such as d20 modern or Unearthed Arcana, do, that would be a gesture, at least) For research XP costs.

AstralFire
2008-10-11, 03:43 PM
Just checked the Wayback Machine, and the SRD, epic included, has been out since at least April 2004.

Huh. That doesn't sound right, but I'll have to just blame it on my memory, then.

hamishspence
2008-10-11, 03:45 PM
In which case, we say of CArc: Published Post SRD, feats in that replace ones in SRD, if you have that book. Same applies to any republished Epic feat.

hamishspence
2008-10-11, 04:09 PM
There is one post-CArc book with a monster whicch uses the feats as they were in epic: Book was Power of Faerun, monster was Inferno the advanced red dragon.

However, it also used the bonus spell capacity feats, whereas in Draconomicon, this was fixed: advanced dragons dont get free feats. So this is not a good example.

BardicDuelist
2008-10-11, 04:30 PM
There is one post-CArc book with a monster whicch uses the feats as they were in epic: Book was Power of Faerun, monster was Inferno the advanced red dragon.

However, it also used the bonus spell capacity feats, whereas in Draconomicon, this was fixed: advanced dragons dont get free feats. So this is not a good example.

Many of the examples and builds in supplements blatantly ignore even simple character building rules.

AlexanderRM
2008-10-11, 08:43 PM
The following is a bunch of epic casting advice Emperor Tippy once posted somewhere, which I saved to a text file. Because as he likes to say, Tippy = Win.
20,000? With additional participants (mebbe use a weaker origin spell first to create some kind of uber-solar) and a 1 round = 1 year accelerated time demiplane (and immortality), that sounds "tough, but doable". Let's see... 10 epic spells would be a bit under 200, so 1000 uber-solar types would let you mitigate that at least to the point where someone with like a +150 DC modifier and various other factors (100 day casting time) could manage it.

Though really, if you're going for that, why not just make a ritual that turns you into a god (would probably be easier than that if you ask me) and then another one that adds 1 to your divine rank? Do this 21 times plus however many times you want (or however many time it takes to become more powerful than any existing overdeity) and you're... well, for one thing, depending on the rules for granting godhood, you MIGHT be able to thank those 1000+ additional participants by making them into gods as well (if they're utterly loyal to you).
I'd also suggest turning that demiplane into a regular, infinite-sized plane with multiple layers. :smallbiggrin:



Yeah, I know this person said that there's a house rule, but that would be just SO VERY AWESOME.




Of course, if you've managed to get this far, you have somewhere between enough Planetars to populate your own Celestial country and several orders of magnitude more Planetars than there are other sentient beings in the known area of most Prime Material gameworlds.. at which point you probably don't need the Spellcraft mitigation for anything more than entertaining yourself or possibly launching a takeover of alternate universes. Or creating an entirely new alternate universe, completely populated, just so you can enjoy taking it over.

...which brings up the unfortunate problem with such tactics. Your DM may rule that there is a theoretical limit to the number of planetars in the universe. With all the various other outsiders (solars and whatnot) and the relatively small number of followers, undead, and such that you can drum up, you can do a lot, but it would eventually be definite- and besides, if every single outsider capable of casting spells naturally disappeared, then methinks somebody might notice.
Now, what you COULD use is things like origin of species. Create something that naturally casts epic spells and breeds in like 5 seconds (I doubt any DM would let you do that, maybe 1 day though) and make a 1 round= 1 year time plane (size is a problem there...), then maybe you can try something like that. Also consider turning yourself into such a creature by whatever means, especially if you give it spellcasting ability of a different type from your own.

quick_comment
2008-10-11, 10:59 PM
The key to getting epic spells that do whatever you want:

A fanatic epic follower, who can cast the spell. Raise the backlash damage to infinite. His soul is destroyed, you get unlimited power.

Also, if you use the fortify seed, but reduce the bonus to 0, it ends up being a net -DC


Some ideas for your spell:
Turn yourself into a living spell.
Origin of species a creature with near unlimited power
Origin of species a psionic creature that kills anyone who believes in a diety. Without followers, the gods becomes powerless.

monty
2008-10-11, 11:43 PM
Also, if you use the fortify seed, but reduce the bonus to 0, it ends up being a net -DC

So, when you research it...you gain experience? And it takes less than zero time? That makes my brain hurt.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-10-12, 02:41 AM
Too bad the DM in question limited any mitigation to only half the DC and also limited blatant abuses of the system, eh?

Fan
2008-10-12, 02:45 AM
Too bad the DM in question limited any mitigation to only half the DC and also limited blatant abuses of the system, eh?
I'm not doign any of that though... I could have created a DC 1000 speices with your half migtation house rule, and gave it mind swap once a week, and made it entirely loyal to me, but I went with another idea instead... *whacks, and tells to check the thread*
You have alot of questions.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-10-12, 03:26 AM
I could have created a DC 1000 speices with your half migtation house rule
No, you couldn't. The maximum XP you can spend is 50.000 XP. This means that, because you can't spend more XP than you have available and because you can't get around the XP cost due to the "no free resources" rule, the maximum mitigated spellcraft is 138 and the maximum base spellcraft is 276, no matter how high you can get your spellcraft check.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-12, 03:29 AM
No, you couldn't. The maximum XP you can spend is 50.000 XP. This means that, because you can't spend more XP than you have available and because you can't get around the XP cost due to the "no free resources" rule, the maximum mitigated spellcraft is 138 and the maximum base spellcraft is 276, no matter how high you can get your spellcraft check.You already have Leadership and Epic Leadership. You can have others contribute XP to the crafting.

Fan
2008-10-12, 03:30 AM
No, you couldn't. The maximum XP you can spend is 50.000 XP. This means that, because you can't spend more XP than you have available and because you can't get around the XP cost due to the "no free resources" rule, the maximum mitigated spellcraft is 138 and the maximum base spellcraft is 276, no matter how high you can get your spellcraft check.
Its called taking levels in artificer toavoid Xp costs, and I COULD technicly take a staff of body outside body, a rod of persist, create about wenty Simulcra, and just forge an army of contructs then go to them One by one, and cast awaken contruct on them before begining their training in the mystic arts.
Sicne none of us age, or in their case even need to eat, or breathe this should take around a year for each class of peoples to get to level 1.... then i promtly set about havign them raid, and destroy every single lvl 1 Kobold fortress in existance, and end up with a army of level 3 Contruct Warblades, then i move on to hve them raid goblin settlements, then I move towards Orcs, then a couple Dragons lairs, Then a sea Dragons nest, and so on, and so forth.

Douglas
2008-10-12, 08:08 AM
No, you couldn't. The maximum XP you can spend is 50.000 XP. This means that, because you can't spend more XP than you have available and because you can't get around the XP cost due to the "no free resources" rule, the maximum mitigated spellcraft is 138 and the maximum base spellcraft is 276, no matter how high you can get your spellcraft check.
Wait, you're banning the epic spell development use of the Rod of Excellent Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rods.htm#excellentMagic)?

Jack_Simth
2008-10-12, 09:49 AM
...which brings up the unfortunate problem with such tactics. Your DM may rule that there is a theoretical limit to the number of planetars in the universe. With all the various other outsiders (solars and whatnot) and the relatively small number of followers, undead, and such that you can drum up, you can do a lot, but it would eventually be definite- and besides, if every single outsider capable of casting spells naturally disappeared, then methinks somebody might notice.
The Twin Paradises of Bytopia include Solars and Planetars both on their random encounter table - and the Twin Paradises of Bytopia are infinite planes.

So there's distribution of Solars and Planetars on the Twin Paradises of Bytopia that is notably greater than zero - thus, there's an infinite number of Solars and Planetars.

The Glyphstone
2008-10-12, 12:18 PM
Wait, you're banning the epic spell development use of the Rod of Excellent Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rods.htm#excellentMagic)?

So much for making any sort of effective epic magic...

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-10-12, 02:29 PM
No, I'm not banning the Rod of Excellent Magic-but it can only remove the cost of 26.000 Xp, the same amount of Xp needed for its creation. That way, you don't get to circumvent XP costs-you pay for them in their GP equivalent-and while medium DC epic spells will only cost gp, the strongest ones are still limited by that XP amount.

The Glyphstone
2008-10-12, 02:36 PM
What about using multiple Rods on a single spell? It's not normally necessary, but with this limitation, it becomes an option.

Douglas
2008-10-12, 02:46 PM
Ok, that's not so bad then. Can we use multiple rods on the same epic spell, or is there a hard cap of 72 on the DC that can be developed for gold only? Even with maximum mitigation 144 doesn't strike me as very impressive for this level, and the 50000 xp we have to spend would run out rather quickly. Even spending all of it on a single spell would only get to 211. Maybe it's just the Arin'Ra test spoiling my expectations where the Rod was used as written, but 72 strikes me as rather low, not medium, and 211 merely medium rather than high.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-12, 03:05 PM
Ok, that's not so bad then. Can we use multiple rods on the same epic spell, or is there a hard cap of 72 on the DC that can be developed for gold only? Even with maximum mitigation 144 doesn't strike me as very impressive for this level, and the 50000 xp we have to spend would run out rather quickly. Even spending all of it on a single spell would only get to 211. Maybe it's just the Arin'Ra test spoiling my expectations where the Rod was used as written, but 72 strikes me as rather low, not medium, and 211 merely medium rather than high.
Question:
Does your opponent have a similar set of limitations on HER epic casting?

The Glyphstone
2008-10-12, 03:07 PM
Question:
Does your opponent have a similar set of limitations on HER epic casting?

No.

She isn't using Epic magic at all.

Probably because she doesn't need it, but still...

mostlyharmful
2008-10-12, 03:21 PM
Epic casting doesn't need to be world shatteringly powerful to be very effective, its an open ended system that you can be as inventive as you want (dependant on GM whim of course). Personal wards, minion creation, landscape alteration, Mythals (big cheese factor)... whatever...

Think of any spell effect you want and make it epic and only dispellable by epic and if you're right and your opponent doesn't have it you're sorted.

Make it a reinforcement ward that prevents all your buffs from being dispelled or disjoined, shouldn't be too hard, easily within your casting range.

Dublock
2008-10-12, 03:33 PM
Make it a reinforcement ward that prevents all your buffs from being dispelled or disjoined, shouldn't be too hard, easily within your casting range.

I remember reading that the diety isn't going to dispel any buffs anyway, so thats not needed. Although I could be mistaken.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-12, 03:34 PM
No.

She isn't using Epic magic at all.

Probably because she doesn't need it, but still...
In which case, if you had completely open-ended Epic magic, it wouldn't be a challenge at all.

Fan
2008-10-12, 03:51 PM
In which case, if you had completely open-ended Epic magic, it wouldn't be a challenge at all.

I actually have this all Figured out.
Dal Quor. Planar Shepard. WildShape into Old Prismati dragon addition to my 5 clones... Staff of body outside body, rod of Presist.... Simulcrum... Army of Solars....Army of Couatuls.... Raid Hail of Stone to by pass SR, No save, and coming at her 60 times for every one round she can manage. (Even if a immediate action she can only dispel my things once per every roudn she gets.)

AlexanderRM
2008-10-12, 09:42 PM
The key to getting epic spells that do whatever you want:

A fanatic epic follower, who can cast the spell. Raise the backlash damage to infinite. His soul is destroyed, you get unlimited power.

Actually, if I remember correctly, you can still raise them after they die of backlash damage, but they lose a level no matter how you do it.
So you could, in theory, do that as many time as you want to do whatever you want, as long as you can have them regain levels indefinitely. You could actually use that for yourself if you get your friend to TR you as many times as necessary and regain the level through whatever means.




Some ideas for your spell:
Turn yourself into a living spell.
Origin of species a creature with near unlimited power
Origin of species a psionic creature that kills anyone who believes in a diety. Without followers, the gods becomes powerless.
First one: a living spell... with what effects?
Second one: sounds OK... but why not just turn yourself into an overdeity with a Divine Rank about twice what your opponent has? Or something along those lines...
Third one: Or you could just kill anyone who believes in the deity you're facing. Though actually, if you need followers to have divine power, doesn't that prevent you from turning yourself into a god? :smallconfused:

Oh, I know! Origin of species a creature that's a fanatic follower that can use epic spellcasting naturally. Continually TR the original one until they can't cast the spell anymore, then use the multiple creatures created to create more of them, and repeat as many times as necessary.



So, when you research it...you gain experience? And it takes less than zero time? That makes my brain hurt.
Gaining experience for studying the workings of true magic does kinda make sense... not so much with gaining raw materials, though. I think it would just take no time...



The Twin Paradises of Bytopia include Solars and Planetars both on their random encounter table - and the Twin Paradises of Bytopia are infinite planes.

So there's distribution of Solars and Planetars on the Twin Paradises of Bytopia that is notably greater than zero - thus, there's an infinite number of Solars and Planetars.
Well, it depends on whether or not you decide to use the "or large enough that they might as well be infinite" thing. Remember that, with the law of probability, if you have multiple infinite planes (with multiple infinite layers, but neither of those matter because it all works out to infinite in the end) and it's possible (at all) to obtain enough power that you're noticeable by anyone on even a single layer, then and infinite number of people would be attaining such power in any given second, and, in theory, and infinite number of people would be attaining truly INFINITE power every single second. I take it you see the problem with that?

It's also worth noting that that would mean that you really can't create a complete map of the material plane if it's infinite, since the players can always just keep going in one direction indefinitely.
Oh, and also note that with a couple unique places (such as Sigil) you'd have an infinite number of people of every species and such going there at any given time, and if you had a limited number of deities of over a certain rank (so, say, you only have about 30 greater deities or so) then any deity over that rank would most likely have an infinite number of followers, unless you make an infinite number of deities, so you could very well wind up with an infinite number of rank 5,000 overdeities...

Jack_Simth
2008-10-13, 07:06 AM
Gaining experience for studying the workings of true magic does kinda make sense... not so much with gaining raw materials, though. I think it would just take no time...

Perhaps it amounts to an off-screen adventure across the planes, where you pick up some valuable loot and return home earlier than you started due to some quirk of time flow on those other planes?


Well, it depends on whether or not you decide to use the "or large enough that they might as well be infinite" thing. Remember that, with the law of probability, if you have multiple infinite planes (with multiple infinite layers, but neither of those matter because it all works out to infinite in the end) and it's possible (at all) to obtain enough power that you're noticeable by anyone on even a single layer, then and infinite number of people would be attaining such power in any given second, and, in theory, and infinite number of people would be attaining truly INFINITE power every single second. I take it you see the problem with that?

Apparently, Infinity - Infinity is undefined. However, as my method doesn't truly subtract an infinity, just a (quickly growing) finite amount, that's okay (as Infinity - [Finite Number] = Infinity).

However, I didn't say the material plane was infinite (that's not defined as such), just that the Twin Planes of Bytopia are.

As for infinite number of people obtaining an infinite amount of power? Doesn't matter overly much as long as you avoid ticking them off (other than that the DM now can throw you against people of similar power).


It's also worth noting that that would mean that you really can't create a complete map of the material plane if it's infinite, since the players can always just keep going in one direction indefinitely.
Oh, and also note that with a couple unique places (such as Sigil) you'd have an infinite number of people of every species and such going there at any given time, and if you had a limited number of deities of over a certain rank (so, say, you only have about 30 greater deities or so) then any deity over that rank would most likely have an infinite number of followers, unless you make an infinite number of deities, so you could very well wind up with an infinite number of rank 5,000 overdeities...
How's that a problem?