PDA

View Full Version : Ideas for Orcish Society



chronoplasm
2008-10-08, 08:30 PM
"Me got thot for law! Me say, we Orks say anyting we want! Sumwun try to tell Ork not say sumting, we beat 'im! Yu dunn laik wut Ork say? Tuff tookies!"

"Hoo got beef wit dat?! Aye or nay!"


Orcs are too independently minded to follow a leader, and they will not follow any command they don't agree with. In order for an orcish tribe to function at all, all orcs must be able to reach a consensus decision.

Whenever there is a major decision to be made, all the orcs of the tribe will gather together. The Chieftan is not a leader, but a facilitator for these discussions responsible for directing the discussion and breaking up fights. The Shaman monitors consensus and the emotional climate of the meeting. Skull-breakers make sure the meeting keeps to the schedule. If anybody tries to waste the tribe's time with pointless rambling, the Skull-breakers will beat them with sticks.
All orcs are considered equal. Any orc is allowed to come forward to present their opinions to the tribe. To a lesser extent, outsiders are able to do this as well, but they must work much harder to convince the tribe.

Once the tribe figures out an agenda, the orcs will argue about the item and identify general opinions and direction of the group. Then some orcs will come forward with proposals. Once proposals are made, there will be a call for consensus. All who agree with the proposal will raise their fists and yell. All who disagree will throw things. If consensus is not agreed, the dissenters will voice their complaints and the proposal will be modified. This process will continue until the orcs are reasonably content.

What do you think?

EvilElitest
2008-10-08, 08:51 PM
pretty nice, i like how you combined the stupid orc idea with a really clanish hive mind idea
from
EE

Calinero
2008-10-08, 08:52 PM
That process would hardly be efficient, but it makes a sort of sense. Perfect for orcs.

chronoplasm
2008-10-08, 08:58 PM
"Ork way is worst way in world... 'cept for all the other ways." -Puggo, Orcish Philosopher

I'd also like to add that the larger orcish tribes will elect smaller committees for various purposes to save time.

*edit*

Another idea.

Sometimes multiple orcish tribes will get together to form a larger community. Each tribe will build its own "Orkhaus" with its own laws determined by the tribe, and then all of these tribes will get together to make a "Bighaus" where representatives of the tribes will go to discuss matters pertaining to the community as a whole.

Hal
2008-10-08, 09:06 PM
What's wrong with the old, "The strongest guy leads them" theme.

chronoplasm
2008-10-08, 09:11 PM
What's wrong with the old, "The strongest guy leads them" theme.

It might just be me, but I feel that kind of gets stale after a while. I want to experiment with different ways of treating orcs.

AstralFire
2008-10-08, 09:17 PM
It might just be me, but I feel that kind of gets stale after a while. I want to experiment with different ways of treating orcs.

Mine are the head BBQ chefs in a restaurant underlit by Sharn's forges.

Calinero
2008-10-08, 09:44 PM
I enjoy giving creatures like the Orcs more depth. After all, they are sentient creatures. It's silly to think that they would all behave in the exact same way. It's cool that you're trying to give then a social structure that's different from the norm.

Falrin
2008-10-08, 09:56 PM
Strongest guy leads the way is the old way.
It worked untill orcs started to gang up on the strong guy.
So every major decision ended with half the tribe killed.

So now you still have the strongest guy, but he's only in charge in war, maybe daily buisness. But when major decisions come along, the tribe gets together and starts shouting.

I like the idea, escpecially if you keep the old tales up. The humans still go ' Big orc is chief, big brutes, force rules the tribe, ... '

And then you put them in a social situation with them.

Lazy Zomb
2008-10-08, 09:58 PM
That is awesome. Give the generically evil, smelly, stupid race a democratic system. Would make sense why they're always clashing with PC race cultures that're using monarchies.

EvilElitest
2008-10-08, 10:02 PM
it also explains why orcs don't get much done
from
EE

chronoplasm
2008-10-08, 10:12 PM
"Orks fight for freedom! Orks help sun people be free!"
That could be a great motivation for orcish raids I think.

Falrin:
That would be a cool idea.
I can just imagine a group of PC characters being taken prisoner by the orcs and made to watch the tribe discuss what to do with them. Perhaps the characters should be forced to stand before the tribe and explain why they should be allowed to live.

Zeful
2008-10-08, 10:13 PM
It might just be me, but I feel that kind of gets stale after a while. I want to experiment with different ways of treating orcs.

Except you could take despotic (might makes right) rule so many ways. For instance, all disputes are solved by combat. One Orc claims the other stole from him, they fight. Wife wants husband to clean dishes, they fight. Orc wants other Orc's life partner, they fight. So on and so forth. Orc honor is determined by his/her weapon's range. Swords are less honorable than daggers which are in turn less honorable than bare fists. Magic is the least honorable. There are no real laws, it's just the orc way. Orcs could live in a self-ruled Despotism without an actual leader, just the guys in the bar/tavern deciding to go that way.

AstralFire
2008-10-08, 10:33 PM
So you're basically saying that orcs are a bunch of /b/tards and Pelor == Scientology.

Zeful
2008-10-08, 10:36 PM
No just that they enjoy a very simple life of fighting, sex and food.
Also Pelor > Scientology

Zuki
2008-10-08, 10:38 PM
I like this. It vaguely fits with some of Anarchism's ideas about how a non-hierarchical society or an anarchistic one might be led, with a lot of debate and arguing until a satisfying consensus is led. This fits with the 'chaotic' aspect of their alignment.

It makes it clear why large groups of orcs that are sufficiently organized is a big deal and a rare thing, because not all orcs might be happy with the decisions of such subcommittees. I like the fact that the moderators get to beat timewasters with sticks, and that with so many violent invididualists, a chief basically ends up in her position by having SUPREME NEGOTIATION SKILLS.

Fishy
2008-10-08, 10:47 PM
Every year, there is a ceremony, where the Hauses gather for a public reading of the various agreements they decided on, and decide whether or not they still think they are good ideas.

Every year, right before the ceremony, the orcs conduct raiding parties to find and capture someone who can read.

AstralFire
2008-10-08, 10:55 PM
No just that they enjoy a very simple life of fighting, sex and food.
Also Pelor > Scientology

How about St. Cuthbert, then? This still sounds remarkably similar.

chronoplasm
2008-10-08, 11:11 PM
Every year, there is a ceremony, where the Hauses gather for a public reading of the various agreements they decided on, and decide whether or not they still think they are good ideas.

Every year, right before the ceremony, the orcs conduct raiding parties to find and capture someone who can read.

I can see that.

"ORKHAUSES! SOUND OFF!"

"Hammarhause! Hammarhause makes da brains go splat!"
"Meathause! We gots da porks!"
"Drunkhause! We gots da beer!"
"Axehause! We dunn demand, we axe!"
"Redhause! We better than Greenhause!"
"Greenhause! No, we better!"
"Deth Trukkhause! Four rape-wheels of POWAR!"

"Hoo gots da reader!"
"Me do!"
"Dats a gobbo! They no read!"
"It read if me say it do!"

BossMuro
2008-10-08, 11:12 PM
My one problem with this is the whole 'all orcs are equal' bit. To me at least, the whole point of orcs is that they respect personal might above all else. That doesn't rule out democracy in any way, but some orcs would likely be a whole lot more equal then others.

NPCMook
2008-10-08, 11:13 PM
http://s94913612.onlinehome.us/wh40klol/you_iz_an_ork!.png

AstralFire
2008-10-08, 11:15 PM
My one problem with this is the whole 'all orcs are equal' bit. To me at least, the whole point of orcs is that they respect personal might above all else. That doesn't rule out democracy in any way, but some orcs would likely be a whole lot more equal then others.

And that is different from a real democracy... how?

Zeful
2008-10-08, 11:15 PM
My one problem with this is the whole 'all orcs are equal' bit. To me at least, the whole point of orcs is that they respect personal might above all else. That doesn't rule out democracy in any way, but some orcs would likely be a whole lot more equal then others.

Which is why an Anarchist (as in no king/leader not no society) Despotic rule makes so much sense.

chronoplasm
2008-10-08, 11:19 PM
How about this:

All orcs can voice their opinions, but the bigger and stronger orcs are more likely to be heard.
Also, the bigger orcs are more likely to become chiefs and skull-breakers. These aren't leadership positions exactly, but they are positions of power and importance.

MisterSaturnine
2008-10-08, 11:20 PM
I can see that.

"ORKHAUSES! SOUND OFF!"

"Hammarhause! Hammarhause makes da brains go splat!"
"Meathause! We gots da porks!"
"Drunkhause! We gots da beer!"
"Axehause! We dunn demand, we axe!"
"Redhause! We better than Greenhause!"
"Greenhause! No, we better!"
"Deth Trukkhause! Four rape-wheels of POWAR!"

"Hoo gots da reader!"
"Me do!"
"Dats a gobbo! They no read!"
"It read if me say it do!"

Robbothause! We gots the shenanigans!

Fishy
2008-10-08, 11:24 PM
My one problem with this is the whole 'all orcs are equal' bit. To me at least, the whole point of orcs is that they respect personal might above all else. That doesn't rule out democracy in any way, but some orcs would likely be a whole lot more equal then others.

Nobody can make an Orc do what they don't want to do.

Of course, you can hit them until they start liking your idea more.

chronoplasm
2008-10-08, 11:40 PM
Robbothause! We gots the shenanigans!

"Robbothause! Why you late to party?!"

String
2008-10-08, 11:45 PM
"Robbothause! Why you late to party?!"

AMINALHAUS! Toga! Toga! Toga!


oh damn..I've turned into /b/...

sonofzeal
2008-10-08, 11:50 PM
Orcs in my campaigns are usually much more.... Taoist, actually. They believe there needs to be a balance between the inward growth of agriculture and economy (which they associate with Darkness), and the outward growth of conquest (which they associate with Light). That balance is necessarily more weighted towards violence than human society, but they still see it as very important, with every Orc worth their salt having at least one outlet on either side. Crafts, Profession, Perform, Handle Animal, and Survival are all appropriate "Dark" outlets, with any combat feat serving for the "Light" side.

They're also generally herbivores, but that's another story.

Kalirren
2008-10-09, 01:29 AM
I actually once played an orcish barbarian in the middle of a bunch of elves in a Native-American themed campaign, and it worked pretty well. My character had Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 6, that is to say, he was dumb for an orc and retarded by human and elven standards. Over the course of the RP I managed to flesh out a fair bit about the way orcs think, just from having to play dumb in a very intrinsically orcish manner, and I'm pretty happy with it. So here goes:

Orcs at the most primitive are just past Neolithic, still primarily hunter-gatherer nomads who rely on patrolling a large expanse of territory to keep a small tribe stable. Their society has reached a point where war and diplomacy are just starting to be feasible; natural disasters and human encroachment happen often enough to force orc tribes into contact with one another on a regular basis.

Orcs are pretty dumb, let's face it. But they're sentient, still. There are only a few ways of understanding things, but they work. For example, orcs don't kill members of the tribe to demonstrate power; just beating them up in public is enough. Orcs are dumb enough that a random good idea is often better than any standing consensus; over the years, orcish discussions haved evolved into town-hall style meetings where all tribe members are welcome to suggest, and different courses of action are adopted by the strongest and most able. This is often mistaken by humans to be a might-makes-right system; it really works the other way around. Most tribes that actually do devolve into might-makes-right are often led into their destruction, and do not survive; unfortunately for the orcs, this is also the type of tribe that also causes most trouble for the humans and earns them their bad name.

Orcs have invented sport to serve the dual purpose of ritualized combat and combat practice; tests of strength are the orcish pastime and take many forms, such as arm-wrestling, orc rugby, and full-scale tribe-on-tribe lacrosse. Good performance in these tests of strength are important for both men and women, and are important in social standing. Magic users exist and are set aside from this hierarchy of strength; the rare orcs who show magical talent will be taken aside by the wise and old and trained to become shamen, druids, and seers, that their talents might not be wasted.

Another oddity is that humans do not understand the orcish breakdown of the world. While for humans there exist law and evil, an orc sees things in terms of "strength", "wisdom", and "power". For example, a champion of Heironeous who leads for the glory of his kingdom and his legacy might fall under the orcish classification as being both "strong" and "wise", whereas a champion of Hextor who can get what he wants through exploitation of heirarchy would be seen as "strong" and "powerful". An old druid, or a well-respected medicine man, would be called "wise" and "powerful" but not "strong" as they are past their physical peak and do not participate in the heirarchy of strength.

The Orcish ideal is to be all three: strong, wise, and powerful. Paradoxically, their ideal alignment thus corresponds to a human LN, but orcs in general fall towards a human CE because that is their base mode of existence.

bosssmiley
2008-10-09, 04:28 AM
"Orks fight for freedom! Orks help sun people be free!"
That could be a great motivation for orcish raids I think.

For our freedom and yours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_our_freedom_and_yours)

Wait, wut? The Orcs are pre-Partition Poles now? A semi-anarchic democracy that comes crashing down in recriminations and punch-ups at critical moments. Yeah, I can see that... :smallamused:

The other mandatory element of Orcish democracy: lock an adjudicator in a box and the faction that shouts the loudest during the vote wins. Idea shamelessly stolen from the ancient Spartan assembly. :smallwink:

Subotei
2008-10-09, 07:38 AM
....Orcs are too independently minded to follow a leader, and they will not follow any command they don't agree with. In order for an orcish tribe to function at all, all orcs must be able to reach a consensus decision.

Whenever there is a major decision to be made, all the orcs of the tribe will gather together. The Chieftan is not a leader, but a facilitator for these discussions responsible for directing the discussion and breaking up fights. The Shaman monitors consensus and the emotional climate of the meeting. Skull-breakers make sure the meeting keeps to the schedule. If anybody tries to waste the tribe's time with pointless rambling, the Skull-breakers will beat them with sticks.
All orcs are considered equal. Any orc is allowed to come forward to present their opinions to the tribe. To a lesser extent, outsiders are able to do this as well, but they must work much harder to convince the tribe.

Once the tribe figures out an agenda, the orcs will argue about the item and identify general opinions and direction of the group. Then some orcs will come forward with proposals. Once proposals are made, there will be a call for consensus. All who agree with the proposal will raise their fists and yell. All who disagree will throw things. If consensus is not agreed, the dissenters will voice their complaints and the proposal will be modified. This process will continue until the orcs are reasonably content.

What do you think?

Its your basic democracy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy

Why not that orcs should come up with the idea - it was considered crazy at the time!

This is from Tacitus describing the Germanic tribes (not too different really):

"About matters of small importance the chiefs alone take counsel, but the larger questions are considered by the entire tribe. Yet even when the final decision rests with the people the affair is always thoroughly discussed by the chiefs. Except in the case of a sudden emergency, the people hold their assemblies on certain fixed days, either at the new or the full moon; for these they consider the most suitable times....

...Their freedom has one disadvantage, in that they do not all come together at the same time, or as they are commanded, but two or three days are wasted in the delay of assembling. When the people present think proper, they sit down armed. Silence is proclaimed by the priests who, on these occasions, are charged with the duty of keeping order. The king or the leader speaks first, and then others in order, as age, or rank, or reputation in war, or eloquence, give them right. The speakers are heard more because of their ability to persuade than because of their power to command. If the speeches are displeasing to the people, they reject them with murmurs; if they are pleasing, they applaud by clashing their weapons together, which is the kind of applause most highly esteemed."

Yakk
2008-10-09, 10:12 AM
Add some brutality back in...

What if Orcs vote by the ears that an individual Orc has defeated?

Note that this makes killing another Orc who already has at least 2 ears and taking his ears ineffective, because you don't get the ears of the orcs you defeat. You just get their ears.

Another idea would be slavery. You get more votes for having more slaves. Slaves can, however, challenge any free Orc. This challenge is arranged in such a way that a non-Orc doesn't stand much of a chance (a duel using only Orc-tusks?).

Orc slaveowners can also delegate another Slave to do the fighting for them, because the Slave is clearly weaker than the owner (as if it wasn't, it wouldn't be a Slave). This frees up Orcs who have huge Slave stables from the challenge problem.

An Orc can also challenge another Orc, and if they win, that other Orc becomes the slave of the first Orc, and all of the other Orcs slaves their slaves. To make this challenge, you have to have at least 1 slave for every 2 slaves the person you challenge has.

A slave of an Orc can also challenge another Orc, but that slave has to bring slaves equal to the other Orc's slaveholdings, and the challenger loses those if the challenge fails.

Having a Slave that is too strong is dangerous, as is being weaker than other Orcs. Orcs giving freedom to a Slave isn't that rare.

The Orkas still exists, but it is now where Orcs that are near each other in power argue over what to do. Only when a single Orc manages to enslave the entire populace that the Orc is made Warchief.

Orcish hordes is what happens when a single Orc starts chain-enslaving huge swaths of Orcish tribes. The single Orc builds up a few champions capable of taking out the leaders of other tribes... and an exponential blowup happens.

mostlyharmful
2008-10-09, 03:22 PM
I'm a director of a charity that strives to make all decisions and meetings through concensus. God I wish we could have skull-bashers, I'd have about three thousand hours of my life back:smallfurious:

This sort of process is facinating, you get faster at it the longer you do it and it encourages unbelievable underhandedness, any decision you want made needs to be carefully planned in order to shepard the meeting in the right (or at least related) direction.

If I want a particular point decided on in a meeting I'll need to be sure of at least one in ten discussers being already primed and convinced of what I want them to say, if its complicated I'll want one in five to be completely pre-decided, if its controvesial I'll want one in three. Lovely way to run an organization but occationally I really wish for a ridgid hierarchy just because it's less work.

Drakefall
2008-10-09, 03:55 PM
As far as Orc societies go I like the idea of a semi-democracy and a council of elder shamans who operate as leaders of the tribe.

Tribal meetings are held regularly with all members of the tribe who are of age present. The shamans preside over the meeting but any tribe member may bring up an issue or state a point. The shamans job is basically to keep things moving and maintain order. Quite a mission with Orcs, but shaman would be greatly respected and possibly feared among Orcs. Shaman would definitely have a high wisdom score and probably more charisma and intelligence than the average Orc but would not be as physically imposing. Their mystical powers would more than compensate for this however and that is where their respect stems from. They would probably be true neutral.

In times of war the shaman hold council with the warchief and his generals to initaite quick decision makings. The warchief is basically a strong fighter who has shown skill in leadership and tactics and has been appointed as the military leader of the tribe. His generals would also have a basic grasp of these and would not simply be the types of Orcs who just smash stuff.

When tribes join together for large scale wars and conflicts each tribe sends one shaman, usually the elder, to form a war council... the warchief with the most success among the tribes becomes the overchief for this war and the other warchiefs join him as his generals.

Random NPC
2008-10-09, 04:51 PM
orcs are a bunch of /b/tards

Best. Idea. Ever.

brant167
2008-10-09, 06:11 PM
Here is a twist I use:
In the world I have designed Orcs are the only sentient race born without a soul. They originally were created by Leshy(epic elves who in this setting were the sons and daughters of the gods.) They were bread to be the perfect slave race in order to build the Leshy’s massive empires. During the rise of the lesser races, demi-humans, the Leshy taught the elves how to control the Orcs and the elves sold that secret to other sentient races. A Orc can be given a soul by a cleric or favored soul preforming a ritual that cost 2,000 gp. The Orcs that have escaped servitude without a soul feel they have nothing to lose and attempt to destroy societies that use Orc slave labor (way I explain it to my players is Reavers with a cause.) While the Orcs who have escaped captivity and have a soul are able to be played by pcs.

Yahzi
2008-10-09, 07:58 PM
a chief basically ends up in her position by having SUPREME NEGOTIATION SKILLS.
I just don't see how that is Orc-like. Or Chaotic Evil.

The strongest man rule works because the strongest man is a 9th level fighter, so it doesn't matter how many 1st levels gang up against him. In a D&D world, Human society is aristocratic and despotic to a degree unheard of in real history; Orc society would be much, much worse.

Ragabash
2008-10-10, 07:35 AM
I rather like the idea. It's somewhat functional, works well with a clanish mindset, and sounds like something that could arise in a fantasy world. I say use it.

I never liked the ugly=evil despotism rule anyways. If elves can have a sophisticated society, why can't orcs? Both are chaotic. (Please... don't get me started on the idea of elves building empires...)

There could be a lot of potential adventures there, too. Riots in orcish slums caused by conflict in a close decision could spill over into more "civilized" areas of the city, the old tribal leadership who had achieved an uneasy peace with the local nobility is tossed out in favour of younger firebrands, and what happens when the local serfs start to think that, if you take out some of the violence, having a say in running their lives sounds like a pretty good idea...

Jayabalard
2008-10-10, 08:25 AM
I enjoy giving creatures like the Orcs more depth. After all, they are sentient creatures.Pretty much all animals are sentient creatures.


It's silly to think that they would all behave in the exact same way. Not really; the absurd thing is to assume that they wouldn't all behave the same way because humans don't; at that point they're just humans in rubber suits. There's nothing the least bit wrong with having them act in an utterly inhuman fashion.

Brauron
2008-10-10, 08:45 AM
Here's how I rule Orc society works in my games:

Orcs inhabit a boggy, hilly landscape unsuitable for standard agriculture but acceptable as cattle grazing land. So they raise cattle.

Each clan is ruled by a single "Big'un," chosen by who has the most honor -- honor being derived from who owns the largest number of cattle within the clan. Orcs can gain honor by stealing the cattle of other clan members or from other clans.

Standard operating procedure is, Orc A steals Orc B's cattle. Orc B kidnaps Orc A's wife or children. Orc A and Orc B then set about talking to as many Clerics of Gruumsh as they can, in order to get the clerics to support their claim to the cattle. Whoever can influence the most clerics (each clan has on average four or five clerics) keeps the cattle, unless Orc A says, "ok, take my wife -- please!" in which case Orc A has some cows and Orc B has some new family.

The heads of each clan gather periodically to resolve issues that affect all of Orcland, such as making decisions to wage war against neighboring countries. In case of war, either an Orcish war of conquest or Orcland being invaded, the gathered Big'uns will elect one of their own as Warleader for all of Orcland. If the Warleader dies, a new one quickly replaces him.

Basically, in my world, Orcs are the Irish, pre English-conquest.

Wulfram
2008-10-10, 10:57 AM
The way I see orcs is:

Orcs are carnivores. Thus they don't plant crops, and remain nomadic or semi-nomadic - they're either going to be hunters or herders.

Within an Orcish tribe, Might makes Right is usually the basic rule. However, an Orc who is unhappy in his current tribe, can, possessing only movable goods, usually just leave. So a strong warrior with poor leadership skills risks ending up as chief of a tribe of one.

Similarly, an orc who is both strong and an able leader, capable of bringing victory and wealth to his followers, will likely find himself the leader of a very large tribe, attracting new recruits from all around. Once this tribe reaches a critical level, it will likely launch a full scale invasion of it's settled neighbours - the Chief will have to if he is to keep his tribe together, since he will need more resources to reward his expanding circle of followers.

Egiam
2008-10-10, 03:42 PM
I think Keith Baker did the Orc culture great in Eberron.:smallsmile:

Egiam
2008-10-10, 03:53 PM
warning minor Eberron Spoilers!




For those of you who don't know about it the orcs in the Eberron Campaign setting are semi-nomatic swamp dwellers (whoa, gotta slow down my sentences!). They live with this awesome idea from vietnam and thailand of living on houses supported by stakes to protect it from the moisture. the main agriculture is rice, But It is basically a wasteland cut off from the rest of the world. what gets the P.C.s coming Is the fact that the land Is abundant with Majical geodes called dragonshards.(Can someone tellme how to use the "Spoiler" Tab?) There is also a strong druidic culture.

Yessod
2008-10-10, 05:55 PM
The idea of democractic orcs is a neat one, particularly if you use the Germanic tribes version.

In my campaign setting, orcs are basically actual medieval humans. Human society is standard DnD fantasy, so much more like RenFaire than actual history. Humans live to 70, have plenty to eat, are moderately educated, are free to travel and change careers, and are fairly happy. Orcs have crippling serfdom, almost none can read or write, violence and rape are incredibly frequent, and everybody walks around diseased and filthy.

Human cities are built of stone, clean, have wide sewers, often have lit streets at night. They are ruled by a council or a ruler with educated advisors. Orcs cities are stinking pits of disease and dung that frequently catch on fire, and are ruled by a cruel, mean bastard who got his job by either being a dangerous killer for someone official or by being the son of one.

Yarram
2008-10-10, 06:05 PM
What's wrong with the old, "The strongest guy leads them" theme.

Too much infighting, though I'd have to say, in tribe meetings, orc's who are strong should have more say than orcs who aren't.


Everybody is equal. Except come people are more equal than others.

Prometheus
2008-10-10, 06:45 PM
(Can someone tellme how to use the "Spoiler" Tab?)
[ spoiler ][ \ spoiler] Except without the spaces hit quote to see an example.

Oslecamo
2008-10-10, 07:02 PM
Da orc who is biggest is da boss. Anything else isn't orchy enough.

Pyre_Born
2008-10-11, 01:06 AM
I really like this for Orcs, to me it does give more depth to stale flavor! The primitive democracy feel clinches it for me. I particularly enjoy the quote giving reason for Orcish raids, it definitely makes them feel more "real" as a race.

On a side note...

I like this. It vaguely fits with some of Anarchism's ideas about how a non-hierarchical society or an anarchistic one might be led, with a lot of debate and arguing until a satisfying consensus is led. This fits with the 'chaotic' aspect of their alignment.

It makes it clear why large groups of orcs that are sufficiently organized is a big deal and a rare thing, because not all orcs might be happy with the decisions of such subcommittees. I like the fact that the moderators get to beat timewasters with sticks, and that with so many violent invididualists, a chief basically ends up in her position by having SUPREME NEGOTIATION SKILLS.

You get a cookie from me for using Anarchism properly :p (sorry it's a pet-peeve of mine)

Dervag
2008-10-11, 01:41 AM
Da orc who is biggest is da boss. Anything else isn't orchy enough.That's fine.

But if da orc who is biggest has to face challenges to his rule by da orc who is next biggest, then da orc who is biggest will be fightin' all da time. An' sooner or later, da orc who is biggest will get unlucky and lose a fight- or win and take a crippling injury anyway.

It's the classic problem of "fastest gun in the West." Once it is known that you are the toughest guy in town, everyone else in town will be looking for ways to weaken you so that they can gain power at your expense.

The only way to get stability is for there to be some system other than ritual combat to the death to enforce the power of the ruler. No historical human society ever worked on a basis of pure strength. There is always some element of hereditary rule, or of politics, or of tradition and religion, involved in picking the ruler. And there's a reason for that. Societies in which the only way to make someone obey you is to beat them until they never challenge you again expose the person in charge to too much risk.

Now, if orcs automatically submit to bigger orks, and only rarely challenge them to fights, this will work fine. But if the chieftain has to face challenges to his rule routinely, sooner or later he'll lose. And even if he wins all the challenges, killing so many of his tribe's warriors leaves him without an army to lead.

Oslecamo
2008-10-11, 08:58 AM
Now, if orcs automatically submit to bigger orks, and only rarely challenge them to fights, this will work fine.

That's how it's suposed to work.
1-Orcs are stupid AND coward. So a boss will be challenged by other orc only if he's confident that he can win. Better to be a living minion than a dead challenger. The boss still kills now and then some smart ass who starts geting wrong ideas, helping to keep the others in check.

2-Due to having big strenght and small brains, orcs seek to solve problems with brute strenght. If the boss is the strongest, then he's best at solving problems, and the other orcs will serve him loyally, even doing their best to protect him from exterior threats.

3-Orcs love conflict(solve problems with brute strenght), but don't have a concept of honor. So it there is a non orc weak enemy nearby, it's much more profitable to go bash them than fall in inner fighting and eventually destroy themselves.

4-Thus orcs end up living of a combination of hunting and raiding other races. Notice I say raid, not destroy. They go, beat up whoever stands in their way, take what they want and leave, allowing the raided populations to survive and keep producing goods to be raided again. Untill some adventurers show up that is.

5-If a tribe grows big enough, then sub bosses may be arise, helping the main boss comading his lads. The sub bosses are stronger than average and comand small groups of weaker orcs. They're still submissive to the main boss.

6-Orcs are very traditional and if some smarter orcs starts to try to gain power by talks, the other orcs will shun him as a pariah, an abomination. A brains leader would never arise because the orcs would never follow someone who didn't prove his strenght in combat. They may still play counselleur/shamans, but if even slightly suspected to try to manipulate things they'll get several broken bones.

Now, if by some reason the boss dies, then the tribe will indeed breack in inner conflict as the orcs fight between them to choose a new leader.

Or simply run for their lives, since if their boss couldn't stand, what chances do they have?

Thus the best way to defeat an orc horde is to kill to the leader. Wich isn't that easy since they're the biggest toughest guys around.

Egiam
2008-10-11, 09:26 AM
thanks Testing

Egiam
2008-10-11, 09:27 AM
awesome! It works.

AstralFire
2008-10-11, 09:58 AM
The only way to get stability is for there to be some system other than ritual combat to the death to enforce the power of the ruler. No historical human society ever worked on a basis of pure strength. There is always some element of hereditary rule, or of politics, or of tradition and religion, involved in picking the ruler. And there's a reason for that. Societies in which the only way to make someone obey you is to beat them until they never challenge you again expose the person in charge to too much risk.

I should add that no gorilla or chimpanzee society I am aware of works on pure strength either. There are politics and socialization and fear tactics.

Thant
2008-10-11, 05:11 PM
I like this idea about orks being organized in an anarcho-democratic society. It reminds me somewhat of the Thraddash from Ur-Quan Masters.

Starshade
2008-10-11, 06:02 PM
The gorilla and chimpanzee's mentioned got me thinking, anyone heard about Dumbar's number?

Its a number who's calculate based on the average chimpanzee's ability to keep track of a certain number of apes. In short, apes got a number of about 38, we humans 150.

If we assume, orcs got a number too, but lower than us? Would it mean, they simply cannot form large nations without a means to cooperate beyond "clan" or "tribe" sizes, as by a warlord, field marshal or grand general leading by superior management skills?

I think orc's naturally got less ability than the "civilized" races to form huge societies, but should be able to form them, but those would be somewhat tribe/clan based, imho.

AlexanderRM
2008-10-11, 06:47 PM
Add some brutality back in...
The Orkas still exists, but it is now where Orcs that are near each other in power argue over what to do. Only when a single Orc manages to enslave the entire populace that the Orc is made Warchief.

Orcish hordes is what happens when a single Orc starts chain-enslaving huge swaths of Orcish tribes. The single Orc builds up a few champions capable of taking out the leaders of other tribes... and an exponential blowup happens.
Wow... just imagine a single epic character (fighter or barbarian, most likely) just wandering into an orc tribe and working their way up the ranks (in terms of number of slaves) until they defeat the person with the most slaves, then enslaving the rest of the tribe, and then going on to conquer tribe after tribe by personally defeating the couple of orcs with the most slaves, then having a few champions take out the mid-level ones and moderate-power slaves enslave everyone else (if I understood that correctly, you CAN get slaves to help you with mopping up huge hordes), then go on (leadership+ epic leadership would probably be helpful here) and keep on enslaving entire tribes... in theory, you might be able to enslave the entire Orc race.

Say, that could be a story of how the Orc god (if you do away with the "created the orcs" thing) came about- this one orc of insanely high level enslaved the entire race, and then because a god due to the huge number of followers he had.



I just don't see how that is Orc-like. Or Chaotic Evil.

The strongest man rule works because the strongest man is a 9th level fighter, so it doesn't matter how many 1st levels gang up against him. In a D&D world, Human society is aristocratic and despotic to a degree unheard of in real history; Orc society would be much, much worse.
Actually, come to think of it, in D&D, with orcs and such anything BUT that doesn't really make sense. If you use the rules for creating towns (and whatnot) from the DMG, then if the highest-level barbarian is 10th level, then you'll have two 5th-level barbarians and all the other barbarians be 3rd level at most. Actually, you still have like 15 other classes to contend to (well, not paladins or monks, probably not wizards and maybe aristocrats either, and commoners and experts don't really do much...), but still, if the strongest man wants to rule, there's not really that much the rest of the tribe can do to stop him...



Also, I was imagining a theocray-type thing (effectively, the highest-level cleric rules) and then I thought... what if you had it that most (if not all) Orc tribes are typically ruled by fear? Yes, you'd have some tribes ruled by the biggest Orc*, but... what if, due to the Orcs' mistrust of magic, they often wind up being ruled by the most powerful (and flashy, and hard-to-understand) spellcaster, typically a Wizard or Sorceror but often a Cleric? That would go well if you specifically wanted to make Orcs different from the "typical" ones...


*say, imagine an orc subrace- maybe half-ogre, half-orc, or something- that was large size? Or perhaps simply larger than normal Orcs, in the same way that Dwarves are shorter but still medium size, except also soemwhat heavier and stronger?