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vanyell
2008-10-08, 11:16 PM
I've recently been asked to join a group who has been on hiatus for more then 6 months, and the DM has suggested that at least one of us should play a bard, also hinting at army vs army combat, meaning bardic buffs can do pretty huge things.

here's the thing though, I don't really want to be stuck as the guy standing in the back humming while everyone else does the job.

I remember from a while ago a bard build that gave elemental damage to the party's weapons (white raven song) and if I remember correctly, sorcerer spellcasting. can someone point me in the right direction for this one?

P.S. level range is from 15, to freeform epic (40+)

AstralFire
2008-10-08, 11:16 PM
Sublime Chord in Complete Arcane is the class that turns the Bard into the Super-Sorc.

vanyell
2008-10-08, 11:17 PM
thanks. that's a big step towards the build. I'll just grab my books and start building

ocato
2008-10-08, 11:19 PM
Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon magic?) is the one that turns your songs into +xd6 fire damage buffs. A common trick I've heard mentioned is to get lingering song (or preferably, a Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade from the MiC), sing your Dragonfire song, then while it reverbs/is sung by your sword, you sing the regular Inspire Courage and end up with +X to attacks and damage as well as +Xd6 fire damage to melee attacks. Throw in some snowflake wardance, maybe some Dervish levels or something (if you want), and you can make a pretty fun character.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-08, 11:26 PM
Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 4.
Take Words of Creation(doubles inspire), Dragonfire Inspiration(inspire courage is replaced by d6s of damage), Song of the Heart(+1 inspire), and Melodic Casting(can cast while singing, use perform instead of concentration). In combat: sing, cast Inspirational Boost(+1 inspire), activate a Badge of Valor(+1 inspire), and then start spellcasting. Every ally that can hear you now has +12d6 damage. You just gave every mook Sneak Attack+ without the flatfooted requirements. And all it took was a single round. You can start doing near-Sorcerer level casting by the second round.

AstralFire
2008-10-08, 11:27 PM
The Book of Exalted Deeds' Word of Creation also doubles the strength of your Bardic Music for a variable amount of non-lethal damage. The damage is painful if you double a bardic music effect that requires a lot of ranks, but the ones you get early, like Inspire Courage, only need 3d4 damage.

ocato
2008-10-08, 11:29 PM
The Book of Exalted Deeds' Word of Creation also doubles the strength of your Bardic Music for a variable amount of non-lethal damage. The damage is painful if you double a bardic music effect that requires a lot of ranks, but the ones you get early, like Inspire Courage, only need 3d4 damage.

Also, as a bard, you can always throw a Cure spell on yourself, be it from your spells per day or a wand, and wipe that subdual up nice and quickly.

Eldariel
2008-10-08, 11:29 PM
Buff your Inspire Courage. Quick list of available methods, feats:
-Song of the Heart [Eberron Campaign Settings]: +1 to Inspire
-Words of Creation : Double bardic music effects, take non-lethal damage - [b]awesome but Exalted!
-Dragonfire Inspiration [Dragon Magic]: Instead of Inspiring +1/+1, give allies +1d6 elemental damage for each point of morale-bonus they'd normally gain. Stacks with normal Inspiration!

Spells:
-Inspirational Boost [Spell Compendium]: +1 to your Inspire Courage, bardic music lasts longer.

Equipment
-Vest of Legends [DMGII]: +5 to effective Bard-level for Inspiring.
-Badge of Valor [Magic Item Compendium]: +1 to Inspire Courage or bonus on saves vs. Charms & Fear, 3/day
-Crystal Echoblade [Magic Item Compendium]: Deal extra Sonic Damage when singing.

That's the best, since if you're talking about armies, inspiring +8/+8 to your troops in some area pretty much means "You Win!" - they'll suddenly be able to reliably hit opponents' ACs and one-hit-kill most things; archers especially love this.

Other important feats:
-Melodic Casting [Complete Mage]: Use Perform instead of Concentration, and cast spells while singing!
-Lingering Song [Complete Arcane]: Bardic Music-effects last 1 minute after you stop singing (instead of half a minute as normally)

Useful:
-Song of the White Raven [Tome of Battle]: Start singing as a Swift Action - if you're going for a caster-build, I wouldn't take this.
-Snowflake Wardance [Frostburn]: Expend Bardic Music to use Charisma on melee attacks. Again, for melee Bards.


I suggest build:
Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 for your pre-Epic career. Then you can enter Epic Virtuoso on 22 (21 will be your last level of Virtuoso). This gets you full arcane casting (all the way up to level 9 spells), 2 minus full Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness (can be buffed with Vest of Legends & Words of Creation).


EDIT: Few songs I suggest:
-Initially trade Fascinate for Healing Hymn [Complete Champion] - you'll pick up Fascinate from Virtuoso, so this is a free extra song in your repertoire.
-Loresong [Dungeonscape] is a decent replacement for Bardic Knowledge as you won't be picking up too many levels of it (unfortunately Virtuoso doesn't advance Bardic Knowledge, so you're capped at 11 from your normal Bard-levels and Sublime Chord). Of course, which is better really depends on how much your party needs a Knowledge-monkey (for example, if there's a Wizard around maxing all Knowledges, your Bardic Knowledge is probably obsolete).
-Hymn of Fortification [Complete Champion] is much better than Inspire Competence - having an easy access to "Protection from Evil" can sometimes be handy, while Inspire Competence is competence-bonus which has a billion other sources.
-You'll never use Countersong - search for replacements if possible (Spellbreaker Song [Complete Mage], is quite poor though). [/i]Mimicking Song[/i] [Dungeonscape] is perhaps the best - it gives untyped bonuses to Move Silently, so you may actually use it at some point. If you're a Half-Elf, the first alternative class feature [Races of Destiny] solves this problem. Otherwise, pick something else.

vanyell
2008-10-08, 11:32 PM
I think I'll avoid the BOED, what with my DM mentioning he liked making paladins squirm with moral dilemas, so exalted... might want to avoid that. I think I'm going to stick with a bard->sublime chord, then once we go epic, I'll see what happens

AstralFire
2008-10-08, 11:32 PM
You mean +16/+16. Oh yes, Exalted Bards with sound amplification are deadly generals.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-08, 11:35 PM
I think I'll avoid the BOED, what with my DM mentioning he liked making paladins squirm with moral dilemas, so exalted... might want to avoid that. I think I'm going to stick with a bard->sublime chord, then once we go epic, I'll see what happensThere is no reason for that build not to go Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8. Virtuoso advances spellcasting, so you can make it advance your SC casting rather than your Bard spells, and it also makes your music better.

vanyell
2008-10-08, 11:37 PM
I have all those books, so I should have that build pretty good. I knew I could count on the guys(and girls) of giantitp

thanks

and with all that, I think I can still work glibness in there

ocato
2008-10-08, 11:39 PM
There is no reason for that build not to go Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8. Virtuoso advances spellcasting, so you can make it advance your SC casting rather than your Bard spells, and it also makes your music better.

Unless you have one of those DMs who wants you to take ONE base class and then ONE prestige class ALL the way through. They exist, and they don't care for dips and flips.

Eldariel
2008-10-08, 11:40 PM
There is no reason for that build not to go Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8. Virtuoso advances spellcasting, so you can make it advance your SC casting rather than your Bard spells, and it also makes your music better.

I strongly suggest Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 - enters epic progression one level later, but has Inspire Greatness, which is very useful (and benefits of Vest of Legends and Words of Creation). Really, having the epic progression one level late isn't much of a downer (only the bonus feats come one level later, which is annoying but bearable), while having access to the maximum number of good songs really amps up a Bard's power.

Also, I added some tips on picking your songs above. Might be of interest to you.

vanyell
2008-10-08, 11:40 PM
alright. just because I'm a little shady on the epic spellcasting rules, as long as I have access to 9th level spells, and have 21 spellcasting levels, I can do epic spellcasting, right?

Eldariel
2008-10-08, 11:42 PM
alright. just because I'm a little shady on the epic spellcasting rules, as long as I have 9th level spell, and have 21 spellcasting levels, I can do epic spellcasting, right?

Yes. More precisely, 24 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and 9th level Arcane Spells. See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-08, 11:42 PM
alright. just because I'm a little shady on the epic spellcasting rules, as long as I have 9th level spell, and have 21 spellcasting levels, I can do epic spellcasting, right?Actually, all it needs is 20th CL, IIRC, plus the feat of course. Talk to Tippy, though. He's the resident expert on Epic cheese.

AstralFire
2008-10-08, 11:43 PM
Unless you have one of those DMs who wants you to take ONE base class and then ONE prestige class ALL the way through. They exist, and they don't care for dips and flips.

This is true, but I have not seen many of those that go in for deep epic campaigns to begin with.

vanyell
2008-10-08, 11:46 PM
he uses half prestige classes, so I don't think there's much to worry about

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-08, 11:51 PM
he uses half prestige classes, so I don't think there's much to worry about?wordiness

vanyell
2008-10-08, 11:53 PM
he mentioned in his previous games he played 10 level PRCs only to 7 etc

Paul H
2008-10-11, 06:27 AM
Hi

Looked at Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord xxx build recently. Took Extra Music (CAd), Melodic casting (CM), & Lyric Spell (CAd).

Extra Spell Slots, Extra Spells known (from Sorc/Wiz list), even spells up to 9th lvl! If that wasn't enough you can cast spells whilst singing, even use up you 'spare' bardic music to gain even more spell slots!

Spells like Whirling Blade work well with high Cha, Also look for Heart of Earth (CM) - grants extra HP & Stoneskin that doesn't have expensive components.

Then just look in Magc Item Compendium for the Raiment of the Four. Items have primary abilities, but their secondary ones allow you to use your spell slots to cast spells like Fireball, etc. (Or you could just buy a Runestaff from same book).

Cheers
Paul H
PS - I'll see if I can find my build & post it later.

playswithfire
2008-10-11, 06:53 AM
Bardic Badass (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=795369) is always good; Inspire courage optimization and Dragonfire Inspiration.

If you're starting at 15+, I like the War Chanter if you can get it to level 10; Inspire the Legion gives all your allies a BAB equal to the highest BAB among the allies or your character level if that's higher. And you can combine it with (an admittedly lower) Inspire Courage or 20 temporary HP. Bard 4/Crusader 1/War Chanter 10, then probably more Crusader. I prefer melee to casters, though, so feel free to ignore me.

golentan
2008-10-11, 07:10 AM
Play an Awakened Whale! Sure, you have a charisma penalty and useless animal hit dice and can't use tools or magic items and can't leave large bodies of salt water, but think how LOUD your bardic music would be.

I apologize for that, I don't know what came over me.

I agree with the sentiment of optimizing your inspire, and then taking Dragonfire inspiration. Just a thought, but if you're willing to burn a +1 LA, firesouled gets you +4 charisma, Leadership as a bonus feat(or +2 to leadership if you already have it), Immunity to stun and daze, the ability to absolutely screw over any enemy with charisma abilities, haste 1/day, and a +1 morale bonus to everyone within ten feet (+2 on saves vs. fear or charm effects). I frequently go with it for leadership builds, but it might not work for your character. Found in Dragon 314, or you can get it off crystalkeep, in the templates pdf.

Paul H
2008-10-11, 07:16 AM
Hi


Here it is:

Elf Bard6/Lyric Thaum 4/Sublime Chord 4

Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 11 Wis 10 Cha 20

(Doesn't include stat increasing items, like Cloak Cha +6)

Feats: Melodic Casting, Extra Music, Imp Toughness, Lyric Spell, Captivating Melody (free). One feat yet to take at 12th lvl.

BAB +9

Spells per day (Base)

3/4/4/3/4/3/2

Spells Known

6/5/5/4/6/3/2

Spells Chosen

0: Read Magic, Detect Magic, Resistance, Light, Mage Hand, Message
1: Cure Lt Wnds, Improvisation, Insp. Boost, Lssr Acid Orb
2: Blur, Tongues, Glitterdust, Invis, Whirling Blade
3: Haste, Leomunds Hut, See Invis, Dispel Magic
4: Legend Lore, Shadow Conjuration, Voice of Dragon, Dim Door, Heart of Earth, Evard's Tentacles
5: Teleport, Mass Fly, Wall of Force
6: True Seeing, Ray of Entropy.

Should note that Whirling Blade with his +1 Longsword is Attack +18 (60' line), Dam D8+9. (D8+13 2Handed).
May not be the best choice of spells/feats, but are ones I chose. Unfortunately just found out that Sublime Chord not allowed in Living Planar..:smalleek:

Cheers
Paul H