Fangled Gamers

[AstralFire]

Alright, I've had it up to here with these [new] [old] 'gamers' who have these weird and [absurdly silly] [incredibly draconian] ideas about how fantasy is supposed to work. Goddamnit, pretending to be [Ichigo, Goku and friends as we move faster than the speed of light yet do not accidentally destroy our home planet] is a lot more [sensible] [creative] than [My Little Pony versus Pokémon] [The Lord of the Rings Fanclub]. [Sigh, kids] [Ugh, grognards],

[B]They're doing it wrong!

[Lord Herman]

Damn right!

[Xallace]

Wait, this still happens? I thought it was just that one guy at gaming club...

[AstralFire]

Wait, this still happens? I thought it was just that one guy at gaming club...

I still see posts one way or the other on these forums. They bother me. [xkcd link here, you know the one.]

[RagnaroksChosen]

I blame Anime... with out it we would still only be drawing on novels... or mostly novels... maybe even myths and legends.

[AstralFire]

I blame Anime... with out it we would still only be drawing on novels... or mostly novels... maybe even myths and legends.

...

:sigh:

[AKA_Bait]

Pah! How can you [anime/mmorpg/mushforbrains kids] [old out of touch and slave to convention grognards] possibly think that [your own game should fit your own preferences]. Honestly you really should take a step back and realize that we [older and more experienced][younger and more creative] gamers know the TRUTH.

[hamlet]

I blame the post literate nature of our society.

People just aren't drawn to the same fantasy sources any more.

Used to be just about everyone playing D&D had read Three Hearts Three Lions, but nowadays it's more likely that people have read Naruto or whatever the popular Manga is today.

The culture has changed.

[streakster]

Too true, AstralFire! I blame those other people who play the game. They don't do it like I do.

[RagnaroksChosen]

heh Which is funny because i tend to relate more to the "elder" gamers who came from 2ed 1ed hackmaster... yada yada... and I'm under 25.

though i do see a lot of the people who speak of, are also into Anime and the like..

I know personally i tend to lean more tword the "Draconic" side of things.

But you have to admit Anime did change a lot of things about fantasy.

[AstralFire]

Pah! How can you [anime/mmorpg/mushforbrains kids] [old out of touch and slave to convention grognards] possibly think that [your own game should fit your own preferences]. Honestly you really should take a step back and realize that we [older and more experienced][younger and more creative] gamers know the TRUTH.

Bait, is there anywhere I can make an official nomination for you as "AstralFire's Hero in the Playground"?

[The New Bruceski]

I blame Anime... with out it we would still only be drawing on novels... or mostly novels... maybe even myths and legends.

Since there is no such thing as bad books, or absurd myths. Don't blame a genre.

[AKA_Bait]

Bait, is there anywhere I can make an official nomination for you as "AstralFire's Hero in the Playground"?

Heh. Not so far as I know. Thanks! I guess you could ask Roland...

Seriously though, don't ask Roland. :smallwink:

[AstralFire]

But you have to admit Anime did change a lot of things about fantasy.

It did. However, my own personal feelings on the matter have little to do with anime and more to do with 80's/90's action cartoons (as in, Western ones) and comic books.

Things change, period. I just get really tired of hearing people talk down about others who prefer something else. That is different from not liking what is preferred - I have a tendency to suppress a shudder when I see too many romanized Japanese words going around (much as I also do when I see too much TNA in a Skintight Latex Costume, or as I do when I see elves and dragons, period.) All that said, I do not, except for purposes of humor, start walking around screaming "HEY YOU NARUTO BOY SHUT UP" and "HEY YOU TWO HANDS ON THE KEYBOARD" and "YO ELVES ARE ANOREXIC AND SUCK AND SO DO LIZARDS". It's not productive, it just makes people unhappy.

Anime has been a bigger influence on me for modern fantasy than high/classic fantasy, by far.

[Raz_Fox]

Y'know, I'll take this opportunity to mention why I hate stereotypes like these. I'm a young gamer - probably younger than most of ye. I love pulling ideas out of Celtic and Norse mythology and the novels of Lloyd Alexander, J.R.R. Tolkien and Raymond E. Fiest. I've never read Three Hearts, Three Lions but if I ever find a copy at the local library I'd probably pick it up.

I hate Magna/Anime with a passion. I'm intrigued by the drawing style but the stories and characters aren't really good enough for me to pick any up. I prefer Western Fantasy.

I hate both the gold and the purple. Is there no middle ground for those who have maturity beyond their years? :smallmad:

Oh, and that was funny, AstralFire. I just wanted to rant for a little bit. :smallwink:

[RagnaroksChosen]

It did. However, my own personal feelings on the matter have little to do with anime and more to do with 80's/90's action cartoons (as in, Western ones) and comic books.

Things change, period. I just get really tired of hearing people talk down about others who prefer something else. That is different from not liking what is preferred - I have a tendency to suppress a shudder when I see too many romanized Japanese words going around (much as I also do when I see too much TNA in a Skintight Latex Costume, or as I do when I see elves and dragons, period.) All that said, I do not, except for purposes of humor, start walking around screaming "HEY YOU NARUTO BOY SHUT UP" and "HEY YOU TWO HANDS ON THE KEYBOARD" and "YO ELVES ARE ANOREXIC AND SUCK AND SO DO LIZARDS". It's not productive, it just makes people unhappy.

Anime has been a bigger influence on me for modern fantasy than high/classic fantasy, by far.

I can understand that.

I think alot of it comes from miscommunication. when people refer to a fantasy element it has so many subcategory's of fantasy, I'm Glad that Rp settings can universaly(amongs the boards that is) fit into 2-3 categories, High fantasy and low fantasy, or mid fantasy.

I think its alot of frustration to old farts who still play the game and refer to fantasy and thing of old school gaming. (aka uninfluanced by anime).

I have to agree I pull a little from Comics ususaly when a play in a more modern setting, but as far as fantasy most of my influance comes from books and the ocasional movie... like dragon heart(i know it wa a ****ty movie), lord of the rings and what not, some times even star wars or dune.

It takes a generation to die off before you'll stop hereing about it, although by then you would be complaining about all these newfangled gamers...


Man i can't wait to be Crochety old gamer.

[Nerd-o-rama]

People. I have made a shocking and horrifying realization.

Different people like different things.

And as long as we're talking about anime, people die when they are killed.

Just so we're clear, I'm on AstralFire's side here.

[hamlet]

Since there is no such thing as bad books, or absurd myths. Don't blame a genre.

No such thing as a bad book?

You're obviously very poorly read.

[Nerd-o-rama]

In this thread: people who don't understand sarcasm.

Or Nerd-o-ramas who don't understand playing along with sarcasm, maybe.

[kamikasei]

I have never seen a thread so dense in posts where I genuinely can't tell if people are being jokingly obtuse or are genuinely missing the intent of fairly clear sarcasm.

[AKA_Bait]

Different people like different things.


No they don't. They only think they do because they haven't tried it the RIGHT WAY yet. Everyone really loves MY way.

[Attilargh]

And as long as we're talking about anime, people die when they are killed.
My life is a lie. :smallfrown:

[Nerd-o-rama]

No they don't. They only think they do because they haven't tried it the RIGHT WAY yet. Everyone really loves MY way.

Yes, yes, Crazy Gamer Hivemind. If there's one thing the internet can agree on, it's that.

[Tsotha-lanti]

...

:sigh:

Priceless!

hamlet, you seriously have like +10 to save against sarcasm. (Which one is that, anyway? Wands or Petrification?)

[RagnaroksChosen]

I have never seen a thread so dense in posts where I genuinely can't tell if people are being jokingly obtuse or are genuinely missing the intent of fairly clear sarcasm.

I think its a combination of the two.

[Zeful]

No they don't. They only think they do because they haven't tried it the RIGHT WAY yet. Everyone really loves MY way.

I agree my way is the best. Simply because it's the "Shut up and play nice with each other or the tazer comes back!" way.

[Eldritch_Ent]

One of my main problem with people complaining something is "too anime" is the fact that Anime covers *WAY* more than the typical Bleach/DBZ/Naruto Shonen Action series. Saying "I hate Anime- It's all about spikey-haired swordsmen having mid-air battles, or stuff involving Naughty tentacles." is like saying "I hate old novels because they're either overly gritty sword and sorcery Conan clones, or sappy romance novels with Heaving Bodices." Neither are true. They both cover way more than just those. They have Scifi, steampunk, romance, and even experimental series. Both have lowbrow and highbrow moments, and both have some really good stuff in them if you care to look. As an avid consumer of both, I say-

People should be more open minded.

Ack, talking like that hurt my throat. Gonna get a lozenge now... Mmm, Minty Lime!

Basically, my point is Anime and Manga are just Asian cartoons and comic books. Of course they use different methods and tropes, but generalizing either is just closing yourself off from potential opportunities.

Of course, I've always been annoyed in general over people complaining about different medias, especially New Media. (TVtropes has it listed under "New Media is Evil" or something.) So take that as you will.

[Inyssius Tor]

I have never seen a thread so dense in posts where I genuinely can't tell if people are being jokingly obtuse or are genuinely missing the intent of fairly clear sarcasm.

You don't internet much, do you?

[Zeful]

One of my main problem with people complaining something is ["too anime"]["too typical"] is the fact that [Anime][Fantasy] covers *WAY* more than [the typical Bleach/DBZ/Naruto Shonen Action series][LoTR]. Saying ["I hate Anime- It's all about spikey-haired swordsmen having mid-air battles, or stuff involving Naughty tentacles."]["I hate old novels because they're either overly gritty sword and sorcery Conan clones, or sappy romance novels with Heaving Bodices."] is like saying ["I hate old novels because they're either overly gritty sword and sorcery Conan clones, or sappy romance novels with Heaving Bodices."]["I hate Anime- It's all about spikey-haired swordsmen having mid-air battles, or stuff involving Naughty tentacles."] Neither are true. They both cover way more than just those. They have Scifi, steampunk, romance, and even experimental series. Both have lowbrow and highbrow moments, and both have some really good stuff in them if you care to look. As an avid consumer of both, I say-

People should be more open minded.

I totally agree

[RagnaroksChosen]

One of my main problem with people complaining something is "too anime" is the fact that Anime covers *WAY* more than the typical Bleach/DBZ/Naruto Shonen Action series. Saying "I hate Anime- It's all about spikey-haired swordsmen having mid-air battles, or stuff involving Naughty tentacles." is like saying "I hate old novels because they're either overly gritty sword and sorcery Conan clones, or sappy romance novels with Heaving Bodices." Neither are true. They both cover way more than just those. They have Scifi, steampunk, romance, and even experimental series. Both have lowbrow and highbrow moments, and both have some really good stuff in them if you care to look. As an avid consumer of both, I say-

People should be more open minded.

Ack, talking like that hurt my throat. Gonna get a lozenge now... Mmm, Minty Lime!

Basically, my point is Anime and Manga are just Asian cartoons and comic books. Of course they use different methods and tropes, but generalizing either is just closing yourself off from potential opportunities.

Of course, I've always been annoyed in general over people complaining about different medias, especially New Media. (TVtropes has it listed under "New Media is Evil" or something.) So take that as you will.

True to that there are some amazingly well done anime and to often people clump the good anime in with the bad...

But then again when we talk in these types of forums usualy people speak in generalities or sterotypes.. (kinda the majority rules thing) or at least thats how I do..and how I notice people do. I my opinion atleast 50% of anime is crap... especialy alot of the more Popular ones. Neruto(shiver), deathnote, bleach(another shiver), etc.
Now there are exeptions to even that rule. Cowboy Bebop, Some would say Trigun, Ninja scrolls. are all popular and again in my opinion well done.

Then there are also things like Puny-Puny that jut make me cringe and i know alot of people have been turned off from anime because of that(not that specificaly but alot like it)...

[Attilargh]

In my opinion atleast 50% of anime is crap...
90% of everything is crap. Sturgeon's Law.

[RagnaroksChosen]

should I rephrase that to not well made instead?

[Inyssius Tor]

Sure, if you want. Be aware that it will have no effect on your point, or on the accompanying rebuttal.

[RagnaroksChosen]

hmm fair enough, I guess.

[Neon Knight]

One of my main problem with people complaining something is "too anime" is the fact that Anime covers *WAY* more than the typical Bleach/DBZ/Naruto Shonen Action series. Saying "I hate Anime- It's all about spikey-haired swordsmen having mid-air battles, or stuff involving Naughty tentacles." is like saying "I hate old novels because they're either overly gritty sword and sorcery Conan clones, or sappy romance novels with Heaving Bodices." Neither are true. They both cover way more than just those. They have Scifi, steampunk, romance, and even experimental series. Both have lowbrow and highbrow moments, and both have some really good stuff in them if you care to look. As an avid consumer of both, I say-

People should be more open minded.



Agreed. Agreed again. Stupid 10 character minimum.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Alright, I've had it up to here with these [new] [old] 'gamers' who have these weird and [absurdly silly] [incredibly draconian] ideas about how fantasy is supposed to work. Goddamnit, pretending to be [Ichigo, Goku and friends as we move faster than the speed of light yet do not accidentally destroy our home planet] is a lot more [sensible] [creative] than [My Little Pony versus Pokémon] [The Lord of the Rings Fanclub]. [Sigh, kids] [Ugh, grognards],

[B]They're doing it wrong!

Very well said.

[AstralFire]

Also, interestingly, the West is directly responsible for a lot of what people associate with anime. Erroll Flynn-type movies popularized the flashy, agile, technically beautiful/pragmatically worthless fighting style. Star Wars - especially the prequels - has a lot to do with the "fantastic power amazing ninja swordfighter" too. (And the Prequels started before anime-fever really hit the US.)

The OT's less flashy for the most part with Jedi, sure, but all four of the trained force users we get to see in the OT pull off at least one pretty awesome feat in a fight. Comics and D&D both popularized syncretism of a wide variety of originally mismatched sources (Mindflayers don't exactly jive with Gandalf, after all) and anime/VGs which do it are only continuing an already established trend.

And to do the flip-side briefly (but only briefly, as there aren't many irrational otaku here that I know) what the hell is the shonen obsession with one-on-one duels when they don't even make rational sense? There are exceptions, but they're rare, especially in the most popular ones.

There's a lot of good and bad to take from all sides, and what those are really vary on the person involved.

[Matthew]

I don't think the relationship between west and east is very clear cut in the case of Star Wars. Lucas roamed far and wide for his source material, most of which had already been influenced by east and west before he ever encountered it. Hong Kong wire fu action flicks are probably more directly responsible for "three impossible things before breakfast" syndrome, but they were in turn influenced by other things, and not soley responsible for crazy action (given that such things can be detected in ancient mythology and even medieval literature).

Typically, when people identify "one thing" that typifies "what I don't like" it is exemplary, rather than totalitary.

[AstralFire]

I don't think the relationship between west and east is very clear cut in the case of Star Wars. Lucas roamed far and wide for his source material, most of which had already been influenced by east and west before he ever encountered it. Hong Kong wire fu action flicks are probably more directly responsible for "three impossible things before breakfast" syndrome, but they were in turn influenced by other things, and not soley responsible for crazy action (given that such things can be detected in ancient mythology and even medieval literature).

Typically, when people identify "one thing" that typifies "what I don't like" it is exemplary, rather than totalitary.

Well, yes - as always your points are accurate and well-made - but I was going for what really directly introduced those in a popular way. Disney's in a large way responsible for anime to begin with, after all, but I wouldn't label Disney as having a really strong impact on the modern anime plot.

[Matthew]

Well, yes - as always your points are accurate and well-made - but I was going for what really directly introduced those in a popular way. Disney's in a large way responsible for anime to begin with, after all, but I wouldn't label Disney as having a really strong impact on the modern anime plot.

I always thought it was the Matrix that got the wire fu ball rolling in the US, but I seem to recall Ninja Scroll and Akira being pretty popular back in the mid to late nineties when I was in school. Depends what constitutes "in the popular consciousness", and being outside the US, I am not really in a good position to tell...

Oh yeah, and Hercules/Xena Warrior Princess. I really hated those shows to begin with, but after I got over the implausibility of it all, I settled down to enjoying the insanity.

I hear Ninja Scroll 2 sucks, however. :smallbiggrin:

[AstralFire]

Matrix and Equilibrium got specifically Gun-Fu really strongly going. Phantom Menace I think came out before Matrix, and the lightsaber fights are pretty much the shining points of Ep I and II... Matrix didn't get quite as "cool fight, no substance" until its own sequels, I'd say.

I don't remember much Wire-Fu in Hercules and Xena, though I do remember MUCH awesome. :smallbiggrin:

You're probably a bit older than me in addition to being in England, which also affects things. I do not recall anime really being big enough around where I live that casual watchers weren't decried until about 2000-2002.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Then there are also things like Puny-Puny that jut make me cringe and i know alot of people have been turned off from anime because of that(not that specificaly but alot like it)...

Illiteracy in any field or genre leads to an inability to appreciate or even recognize (deliciously hilarious) parodies of that genre.

Next you'll tell me you thought Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann was silly and the main character was whiny.

[Zeta Kai]

I think the problem doesn't lie so much in the genres of fantasy influence as it does in the people who like those genres. There are those who like the "old-school" fantasy of Tolkien, Lewis, Carroll, Homer, etc. And there are those you prefer the "new-school" fantasy of anime, manga, etc. There are slobbering, ignorant idiots in both camps. The problem seems to be that the idiots appear to outnumber the decent, respectful, openminded people. Also, it can be (at least at first) difficult to tell if a fan of their school is going to be a Normal or a Subnormal.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I agree star wars could be seen as very anime-esc.. But i disagree i think a lot of people believe some thing has an Anime feel to it... It again has a lot to do with the stereo types based around said idea.

I however don't belive it was starwars or matrix that started the whole anime thing it was around before then i know it was around or more of an underground thing around the time of Johny Menonic(i know the SP is horrible). As there where anime scenes in that.

Some saturday morning cartoons also where very anime, Transformers any one?

From what i understand and granted i grew up in NH which isn't exactly the cultural epicenter of any thing but cows, but i know people where pritty heavy into anime around '98 ish.. with the original ninja scrolls and some other random ones.


Tsotha-lanti- I've never been a big fan of literiture satire. Puny puny was a horrible made anime, Also Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann i don't remember so well as i saw it while stoned and playing MTG.

[Matthew]

Matrix and Equilibrium got specifically Gun-Fu really strongly going. Phantom Menace I think came out before Matrix, and the lightsaber fights are pretty much the shining points of Ep I and II... Matrix didn't get quite as "cool fight, no substance" until its own sequels, I'd say.

Apparently, and according to IMDB, the Matrix was released in the US March 1999 and the Phantom Menace was released in May 1999, so close enough to be on each other's heels. I remember being blown away by the fight scenes in the Matrix, even though I was acquainted with stuff like the Legend of Fong Sai Yuk. I think, up until then, I associated such things completely with eastern wire fu flicks. I didn't get the same feeling in the Phantom Menace fight scenes, in retrospect I think I missed the dialogue of previous installments. Still, those are just half remembered impressions.



I don't remember much Wire-Fu in Hercules and Xena, though I do remember MUCH awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Ha, ha. I think it was mainly later episodes that contained extensive jumping around craziness, but the very first episode of Xena has her fighting from on top of sticks and people's heads, if I recall correctly.



You're probably a bit older than me in addition to being in England, which also affects things. I do not recall anime really being big enough around where I live that casual watchers weren't decried until about 2000-2002.

I think Channel Four used to show various anime in the wee hours of the morning on a friday night, and I used to video them. That's definitely how I first saw Akira, and possibly also Fist of the North Star. Certainly, there has been a massive upsurge in popularity in the last decade [i.e. availability in the shops], but I don't recall any decrying over here. I might not have been paying attention, though.

[AstralFire]

I was always more of Herc fan than Xena. I only watched Xena for Gabrielle.

I was familiar with eastern wire-fu having grown up with it, but before then most of my friends weren't.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Also Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann i don't remember so well as i saw it while stoned and playing MTG.Frankly, that's probably the best way to watch it. Or anything else from that animation studio, especially FLCL.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Frankly, that's probably the best way to watch it. Or anything else from that animation studio, especially FLCL.

FLCL was Halarious... while stoned.. haha Thanks for reminding me on that one... my day just got better.

although not completly Anime but did you ever see AMV hell zero? haha

[Tsotha-lanti]

Parody is not satire, and anime is not "literiture". (How can someone not like satire, though? Molière was probably one of the best writers of anything ever.)

[First Speaker]

I agree star wars could be seen as very anime-esc


http://profile.ak.facebook.com/profile6/1318/120/s527862705_4519.jpg

Bah. I'm not a great fan of either, but ... wat?

[RagnaroksChosen]

Parody is not satire, and anime is not "literiture". (How can someone not like satire, though? Molière was probably one of the best writers of anything ever.)

I was never one for what I call "High literature" the great writers and what not. All of the european Writers that we learn about in school, I was never a huge fan. There for Satires which also includes parody as some satires are parodies of great works or people, where never very good to me... I'm to much of a hick to appreciate those things, the closest I've gotten was Robert Frost. And even then thats just poetry.

[AKA_Bait]

Depends what constitutes "in the popular consciousness", and being outside the US, I am not really in a good position to tell...

Heck, other than a few trips abroad I've spet my whole life in the US and I can't even tell what our 'popular consciousness' is anymore. Sometimes I wonder if the proliferation of the internet killed it. After that I wonder if that was a good or bad thing.


Oh yeah, and Hercules/Xena Warrior Princess. I really hated those shows to begin with, but after I got over the implausibility of it all, I settled down to enjoying the insanity.

Same here, although the implausability didn't bother me as much as the blatant disgregard for the actual mythology. After a while though, it became clear that the shows weren't even bothering to pretend to take themselves seriously and I really enjoyed them.


I hear Ninja Scroll 2 sucks, however. :smallbiggrin:

Yes. Yes it does. Not that Ninja Scroll 1 was much better, but at least it was so over the top as to be funny.


There are slobbering, ignorant idiots in both camps. The problem seems to be that the idiots appear to outnumber the decent, respectful, openminded people. Also, it can be (at least at first) difficult to tell if a fan of their school is going to be a Normal or a Subnormal.

Let's be fair, there are slobbering idiots in the middle camp too. :smallbiggrin:


I was always more of Herc fan than Xena. I only watched Xena for Gabrielle.


I choose to assert my fifth amendment right and not confess to watching Xena for essentially the same reason.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Bah. I'm not a great fan of either, but ... wat?I think they mean the ridiculous over-the-top acrobatic swordfighting. As mentioned earlier in the thread, though, that comes more from a common source of inspiration (early American action films starring folks like Errol Flynn). Or in some cases (*cough*MobileSuitGundam), anime directly homaging Star Wars.

[hamlet]

Priceless!

hamlet, you seriously have like +10 to save against sarcasm. (Which one is that, anyway? Wands or Petrification?)

Hamlet doesn't do sarcasm.

Ever.

He's pretty sure that if he did, the universe would implode.

[Vva70]

Let's be fair, there are slobbering idiots in the middle camp too. :smallbiggrin:

Slobbering idiots are universal.

[AstralFire]

Slobbering idiots are universal.

As is popcorn.

Mmm, popcorn.

[RagnaroksChosen]

As is popcorn.

Mmm, popcorn.

I must agree!!

[skywalker]

Old-school Star Wars lightsaber duels were based on Kendo. I saw an academic website about it once, but the guy's domain just disappeared one day :smallannoyed: He was interweb-friends, at least, with the Technical Commentaries guy. There were lots of pictures and descriptions showing how especially the Obi-wan vs. Vader fight in A New Hope was completely historically based.

Anyway, other than that little contribution, I have never seen a worse failure on GITP than the first page of this thread. I see the OP's original point, but my god, so many people went so many other directions from there, it is crazy.

[First Speaker]

Old-school Star Wars lightsaber duels were based on Kendo.

Hmm, I'd contest that 'lightsaber duelan = Japanese swordfighting = anime was a very watertight analogy ...

[RagnaroksChosen]

Hmm, I'd contest that 'lightsaber duelan = Japanese swordfighting = anime was a very watertight analogy ...

Japanese sword fighting <> anime...
It can though...
Example of it not: Last Sameri. The Flavor of Star wars isn't really anime oriented... though the argument most make against anime holds true with star wars which is why i said its more of an exception to the rule.

[Pie Guy]

I don't really like anime tv shows. However it may be just to contradict my friend. Also, I'd like to add that 90% of other things from Japan are awesome, such as video games and sushi.

Edit: Woo! next page!

[skywalker]

I found an archive of the site here (http://web.archive.org/web/20020806205453/www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres.htm).

[Starbuck_II]

I was always more of Herc fan than Xena. I only watched Xena for Gabrielle.

I was familiar with eastern wire-fu having grown up with it, but before then most of my friends weren't.

What about the great warrior what's his face: Joxer!
Oh, and Bruce Campbell's character the king of Thieves.

He was awesome.

[chiasaur11]

What about the great warrior what's his face: Joxer!
Oh, and Bruce Campbell's character the king of Thieves.

He was awesome.

Isn't saying "Bruce Campbell" and "awesome" together a little redundant?

[Starbuck_II]

Isn't saying "Bruce Campbell" and "awesome" together a little redundant?

Redundency was how I kept my job. :smallbiggrin:
I never would have made it to college without my horse.

[AslanCross]

Although I'm one of the people who might be part of the anime crowd, let it be known that there's some anime that I hate much more than I hate any fantasy. Actually, I don't even hate any fantasy worlds. I've only really been exposed to Dragonlance (more or less my first), LOTR, and some Forgotten Realms. I like fantasy a lot, but I don't feel as strongly about it (in either direction) as much as I feel about anime.

I really like some anime, but absolutely hate a lot of it.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Although I'm one of the people who might be part of the anime crowd, let it be known that there's some anime that I hate much more than I hate any fantasy. Actually, I don't even hate any fantasy worlds. I've only really been exposed to Dragonlance (more or less my first), LOTR, and some Forgotten Realms. I like fantasy a lot, but I don't feel as strongly about it (in either direction) as much as I feel about anime.

I really like some anime, but absolutely hate a lot of it.

I don't think its a two wait hate streak the "old school gamers" dislike anime and anime flavored stuff but anime lovers don't nessasarily hate old school gaming.

[RPGuru1331]

What madness is this? Someone is suggesting that well enough be left alone, and that people just enjoy what they like and let other people enjoy their tastes? But then how can I scream about WoWkillers, as an MMO player? Or new editions as a tabletop RPG player? Or scream to Tarjah fans now that she's left Nightwish and been replaced? Or whatever other stupid thing it is that some nerds yell about at other nerds so that they can make each other angry.

Incidental note: Old fantasy can be pretty cool, but the hack fantasy novels of the 80s spring to mind as books that can be pretty apallingly bad, too (Obviously there's bad anime. It makes itself obvious on the internet). Heck, I think LotR is horridly paced, and that Tolkien may be a great linguist, and he might come up with cool concepts, but he's a pretty godawful writer. I mean really; Sturgeon's Law was written without regard to genre, medium of expression, or anything else that people seem to try to harangue each other about.

[Skjaldbakka]

I hate Magna/Anime with a passion. I'm intrigued by the drawing style but the stories and characters aren't really good enough for me to pick any up. I prefer Western Fantasy.

Such a ridiculous statement. The only thing that all manga and anime really hold in common is the drawing style. Which is the part you say you like. The stories and characters are not what make it an anime or a manga. There is an extreme variance in anime and manga, as they are the medium, not the story themselves.

There is an anime or manga for everyone's tastes, except perhaps people that don't like to read (since I'm not going to condone dubs, except rare exceptions).

Although I will agree that there is very little anime on american cable that is any good, especially since it is all dubbed. I have netflix, so I have decent access to sub'd anime. I'm watching X right now.

[DarknessLord]

I still see posts one way or the other on these forums. They bother me. [xkcd link here, you know the one. (http://xkcd.com/386/)]
Indeed I do.

Really, I think your (OP) point needs to be made far more often, bravo.

[Zaphrasz]

My hatred of Anime is twofold. First, we have the ridiculous shonen fighting genre, with the ridiculous premises and over the top nature. From what I am reading here, I don't think I really need to explain why I hate that aspect. Then there is the fact that I just don't like the drawing style. The worst part of that is that it isn't easy to explain why I don't like it, I just don't. That I am constantly bombarded with the stuff and told that there is no reason for me not to like it, and that my taste in comics, cartoons, and video games is somehow compromised by this dislike does not help. Fine, people who generalize and say they hate all anime when in fact they only dislike the DBZesque stuff are overgeneralizing, but in the same vein, please do not assume that everyone who dislike anime are uninformed, close minded people.

[AstralFire]

please do not assume that everyone who dislike anime are uninformed, close minded people.

I don't, as long as you're not a jerk about it; I have to disagree with Skald there, though I am of the opinion that most genres and most mediums tend to have at least one product that someone will like. You just reach an issue of diminishing marginal profit against cost if it happens to be a needle in a haystack.


Indeed I do.

Really, I think your (OP) point needs to be made far more often, bravo.

Thank you for the link and the kind words. :)

[Neon Knight]

Then there is the fact that I just don't like the drawing style. The worst part of that is that it isn't easy to explain why I don't like it, I just don't.

Since anime isn't a universal drawing style, and different artists can have vastly different styles, some of which are quite close to western ones, this phrase makes your post very hard to take seriously.

[RPGuru1331]

Sigh. Isn't it a bit against the spirit of a thread that says "Leave well enough alone" to just not leave people to their dislikes?

[Starbuck_II]

Since anime isn't a universal drawing style, and different artists can have vastly different styles, some of which are quite close to western ones, this phrase makes your post very hard to take seriously.

Agreed, Korean, Canadian/French (Code Leoko), Japanese, and American anime are vast in drawing style.

[AstralFire]

Sigh. Isn't it a bit against the spirit of a thread that says "Leave well enough alone" to just not leave people to their dislikes?

-nods- You are very right. I do not like some things, often for irrational reasons. (coughDragonscough). But I go about my merry way, and the dracofans go about theirs, and no one is the worse off for it.* I'd like to try and avoid discussions of that nature unless someone openly says "I want to give this a shot, can someone talk to me about what they like?"

*Except for the many, many scaly corpses.

[Zaphrasz]

The only thing that all manga and anime really hold in common is the drawing style. It seems not even those who claim to enjoy anime have a definition of it that coincides with everyone else's then.

[Neon Knight]

Sigh. Isn't it a bit against the spirit of a thread that says "Leave well enough alone" to just not leave people to their dislikes?

I thought the spirit of the thread was "open up, breath the air" not "cling to thy hatreds." I thought it was more about understanding the other rather than just "you stay on your side of the line, I'll stay on mine."

But I'm wrong apparently.

EDIT:


It seems not even those who claim to enjoy anime have a definition of it that coincides with everyone else's then.

Have you ever seen music fans? No one can agree on what bands are which genre and which ones aren't. They can't even agree on what characteristics constitutes a genre!

EDIT EDIT: And when did I claim to enjoy anime? Just because I have knowledge of it doesn't mean I enjoy it. I'm more of a Wuxia fan than anything else.

[AstralFire]

I thought the spirit of the thread was "open up, breath the air" not "cling to thy hatreds." I thought it was more about understanding the other rather than just "you stay on your side of the line, I'll stay on mine."

But I'm wrong apparently.

I would like it to be the case, but coming on strong about why you should give something another chance is often a good way to get people turned off to giving it another chance, unless you know them well. I assumed horrible vile things of professional sports for years because of how my dad tried to get me to like them, then I grew up and met people who I saw enjoying them very casually, in a friendly manner. To be fair, I still don't like them, but I don't think dark thoughts about "IDIOTS THE LOT OF YOU A BALL IS NOTHING TO BE CHASING! PAH! STRATEGY IN SPORTS?! UNPOSSIBLE!" the way I did six years ago. I make an earnest effort to sit down and give it a shot now and then.

Ergo, starting out on "you have your side of the line, I'll be on my side" when it comes to personal preference is, I think, a better route.

[Zaphrasz]

Perhaps you are right. The question then is, why do we bother to divide cartoons in categories, and why do we criticize the prejudices of others when we can't even figure out what goes into what category?

How about this, people who hate "anime" (whatever that means) stop telling others how bad it is and people who like "anime" stop telling others they should be enjoying it? Granted, I am pretty sure the majority of people do this, but there is a vocal group that do not.

[RPGuru1331]

I thought the spirit of the thread was "open up, breath the air" not "cling to thy hatreds." I thought it was more about understanding the other rather than just "you stay on your side of the line, I'll stay on mine."

But I'm wrong apparently.
Oh, you're a fellow optimist. My deepest condolences. No, I think that asking for understanding between people is a bit much to hope for. Especially with people haranguing each other constantly for the last what, 10? 15 years? Cranks and kids alike. Try again after 5 or 10 years of relatively peaceful coexistence, maybe.


EDIT:



Have you ever seen music fans? No one can agree on what bands are which genre and which ones aren't. They can't even agree on what characteristics constitutes a genre!
Or literary folks. Some will balk at the many many ways to delineate a genre into subgenres (Fantasy becomes High Fantasy, Low Fantasy, Dark Fantasy, Mundane Fantastic, and whatever the hell else they have) and those who embrace them. It's the same reason you commit crimes in broad daylight in front of a hundred witnesses. You'll never get 100 people to agree to the exact same story, even with the exact same input... (Granted, we have security cameras now, so the analogy breaks down somewhat)

[Neon Knight]

Perhaps you are right. The question then is, why do we bother to divide cartoons in categories, and why do we criticize the prejudices of others when we can't even figure out what goes into what category?

Because arguing is fun. I dunno.



How about this, people who hate "anime" (whatever that means) stop telling others how bad it is and people who like "anime" stop telling others they should be enjoying it? Granted, I am pretty sure the majority of people do this, but there is a vocal group that do not.

Since that is the point of this thread, deal.

[Zaphrasz]

Then I missed the point of the thread, it seemed to me like your standard "argue about whether gaming is becoming too 'anime' or not" thread. I hate it when I miss the point. I'm going to go hide in the corner in now.

[Skjaldbakka]

It seems not even those who claim to enjoy anime have a definition of it that coincides with everyone else's then.

And here you touch upon my main point. Anime is a huge medium, encompassing a broad range of stuff. Saying you don't like 'anime' is kind of like saying you don't like 'television', in terms of the range of material you are expressing a distaste for.

Unless you just don't like anything that is drawn, as opposed to filmed.

Anime isn't a genre, is the main point here.

[Draco Dracul]

It seems not even those who claim to enjoy anime have a definition of it that coincides with everyone else's then.

The definition of anime is Animation from Japan, nothing more, nothing less.

[RPGuru1331]

The definition of anime is Animation from Japan, nothing more, nothing less.

Transformers Animated, The Boondocks, Avatar, Teen Titans.

The second, most notably, is animated in Japan.

There's no one true definition, is all I'm saying.

[Dhavaer]

Saying you don't like 'anime' is kind of like saying you don't like 'television', in terms of the range of material you are expressing a distaste for.

I don't like television.

[Draco Dracul]

Transformers Animated, The Boondocks, Avatar, Teen Titans.

The second, most notably, is animated in Japan.

There's no one true definition, is all I'm saying.

The first, third and last are western animation in an eastern style (Animesque), they were neither written nor animated in Japan. You have a point with the The Boondocks.

[Skjaldbakka]

I don't like television.

Ironically enough, I don't either. Commercials really tick me off. Makes me feel like I'm wasting my time (and money). I do netflix.

The greater irony?

I work for a cable company.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Then I missed the point of the thread, it seemed to me like your standard "argue about whether gaming is becoming too 'anime' or not" thread. I hate it when I miss the point. I'm going to go hide in the corner in now.You're mistaking "the point of the thread", for "what this thread actually ended up being".

I'm curious here, why is anime such a hot-button-freaking issue in the gaming forum? I am aware of the banner in my signature, thank you, but I don't really get why this subforum, as opposed to Media Discussions is so damn concerned with it and brings it into every single bleeding argument.

[Oracle_Hunter]

You're mistaking "the point of the thread", for "what this thread actually ended up being".

I'm curious here, why is anime such a hot-button-freaking issue in the gaming forum? I am aware of the banner in my signature, thank you, but I don't really get why this subforum, as opposed to Media Discussions is so damn concerned with it and brings it into every single bleeding argument.

It's a battle of the subcultures.

Some people are really into their Western Fantasy and SCA and Ren Faires and all that, and some folks enjoy their Anime with its anime clubs and anime conventions. But, when you have both of them playing one of the main systems out there, and WotC changes something, it's easy for the WF'ers to blame the changes on WotC trying to pull in the Dragonball Z crowd, while the Anime folks bristle at being denigrated and ask why shouldn't the game allow characters to do more awesome things.

Plus, y'know, we are on the Internet :smalltongue:

[bosssmiley]

I'm curious here, why is anime such a hot-button-freaking issue in the gaming forum? I am aware of the banner in my signature, thank you, but I don't really get why this subforum, as opposed to Media Discussions is so damn concerned with it and brings it into every single bleeding argument.

Oh, that's an easy one. There's a small but vocal segment of Playgrounders who know in their heart-of-hearts that: "Naruto into Greyhawk doesn't go!" :smallwink:

That's really all there is to it. Some people (generally gamers raised on a diet of LOTR, R.E.Howard, Michael Moorc*ck and Fritz Lieber), don't like even the idea of seeing Super-Saiyan or Avatar classes in their beloved game of Gygaxian swords-and-sorcery, loot-and-scoot fantasy. You can almost hear the cri-de-coeur as they hammer at their keyboards in nerdrage:

"Why, when BESM and Exalted are already available, do people see the need to bring their big-eyed, brightly-coloured, attack-shouting squeaky pixies into our subcultural ghetto?"

It's a classic cultural continuity-vs-neophilia thing. :smallamused:

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's a battle of the subcultures.

Some people are really into their Western Fantasy and SCA and Ren Faires and all that, and some folks enjoy their Anime with its anime clubs and anime conventions.But I like both. I fail to understand either the conflict or the relevance.

[potatocubed]

I'm wondering if the clash may have something to do with the fact that anime and swords-and-sorcery have very different genre standards regarding things like tone, plots, how big a sword can be before it damages verisimilitude, etc.

And... I think those differences stem from the fact that anime and manga are visual media, where things need to have spectacle, and S&S is a written medium which needs less in the way of over-the-top set pieces and more in the way of plot.

There are, of course, exceptions. Books that are nothing but spectacle and anime which is nothing but plot. But I'm a) talking general trends here and b) thinking aloud, so I could be completely wrong.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Transformers Animated, The Boondocks, Avatar, Teen Titans.

The second, most notably, is animated in Japan.

There's no one true definition, is all I'm saying.

The Moomin, Dogtanian and the Three Muskehounds, Alfred J. Quack...


That's really all there is to it. Some people (generally gamers raised on a diet of LOTR, R.E.Howard, Michael Moorc*ck and Fritz Lieber), don't like even the idea of seeing Super-Saiyan or Avatar classes in their beloved game of Gygaxian swords-and-sorcery, loot-and-scoot fantasy. You can almost hear the cri-de-coeur as they hammer at their keyboards in nerdrage:

I've been reading LOTR, Howard, Moorcock, and Leiber since I was like 10, and I love (certain) anime. By now, the back-and-forth influence is impossible to separate from "Western" and Japanese mediums. (Cyberpunk was influenced by anime, and then it influenced anime, and now some of the best cyberpunk is anime.)


I'm wondering if the clash may have something to do with the fact that anime and swords-and-sorcery have very different genre standards regarding things like tone, plots, how big a sword can be before it damages verisimilitude, etc.

Are you kidding me? Western fantasy art has been insulting me with man-sized swords for nigh on two decades, Games Workshop and computer/video games being the biggest offenders.

As far as tone and plot standards go, you're uselessly generalizing. The tone and plot of Princess Mononoke has nothing to do with the tone and plot of Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex has nothing to do with the tone and plot of Dragonball Z has nothing to do with the tone and plot of One Piece ... and so on.

Unless you can quantify and qualify these trends, they aren't trends at all, but confirmation bias and other assorted perception errors.

[Starbuck_II]

Oh, that's an easy one. There's a small but vocal segment of Playgrounders who know in their heart-of-hearts that: "Naruto into Greyhawk doesn't go!" :smallwink:


Of course, that is my ninja way!

[Oslecamo]

But I like both. I fail to understand either the conflict or the relevance.

The conflict comes when anime takes a western concept, animezites it, and then anime fanboys go around claiming their anime version is the most valid one.

This may happen in one or several steps, but either way it ends up with a fictional character completely changing.

For example, one of the most extreme cases, Marie Antoinette.

-History(real world): Marie was a queen who lived very troubled times for her countries and had a very interesting ife.

-Western legends: Marie was involved in a serie of conspiracies and was actually a great fighter.

-Random manga-Marie Antoinete was actually an alien several millions of years old able to summon a garguantan plant and could take the modern army of the U.S with an hand tied up to her back. I'm not kidding, there was a manga who did this.


And thanks to that last piece of art, we now have to deal with people who'll claim by their lifes that the most correct depiction of Marie Antoinette was a super powerfull alien. AAAAARRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Just like that other knight who managed to cut a rock with his sword before he died, and the legend was exagerated and exagerated untill some anime puts said knight taking down mountains with all the ease of the world.

[AstralFire]

It's lazy, sloppy, and very childish and it's hard to ignore when its done to something that you've grown up liking and enjoying.

Sometimes, yes; other times, it is enjoyable to see the permutations of what you already have and know. Many of comicdom's best stories are alternate universe takes on established things, and they're generally done in-house.


It's doubly annoying when it's done by a faceless corporation that you know is run by hateful evil people who regard us as a bunch of mugs to be fleeced and our culture and values as worthless.

Faceless, perhaps. Being run by "hateful evil people" is unnecessary pessimism, I think - and even if it is true, it'd be inescapable unless you went to being a hermit in the woods.

I don't see any benefit in either "I've made this better than you could ever hope to!" or "You can't possibly alter this, this is sacred!" and I see plenty of both stances.

Oh, and I see a lot of grown men writing a lot of silly, silly things.

[Premier]

But I like both. I fail to understand either the conflict or the relevance.

The conflict lies in that people who like both like you* are a minority, while the majority of folks only like one and are indifferent towards (or downright dislike) the other; and that all too often this majority feels - and sometimes with some reason - that either the "other" group or the "liking both" minority are trying to force them to change their preferences.

To put it as an example: I don't care for anime, and I want my fantasy RPG-ing to involve Conan and Tolkien and historical Dark Ages and so on and so forth. Now, I don't have a problem at all with anime fans who want to play a Gundam RPG or whatever; and I don't have a problem with you playing a Greyhawk game with 3-meter-long-sword-wielding Emerald Dragon Adepts or what have you. I won't go over there and start demanding that you or anyone else should change their own game to suit my personal preferences.

But there's a flipside to that, in that I demand the same respect I extend to other people. I do have a problem if anyone tells me either that A, I'm doing it "wrong", or that B, I'm a close-minded git if I don't allow my players to have samurai and half-dragon monks in my historically inspired 5th century Fantasy Britain game.


Now, I think the reason this issue keeps popping up here because it's a neuralgic point of D&D's history. Namely, D&D was a traditional, old-school, completely Western fantasy RPG for a quarter century - in fact, it was the traditional, old-school, completely Western fantasy RPG. Then WotC came along and took the same brand name and logo and slapped it on something with completely different sensibilities: Eberron with its steampunk gonzo "everything goes" mentality and magical robot PCs and lots of other stuff that falls under the good ol' "it's all anime" complaint from grogs.**

And you know, I think the grogs are completely right to feel offended by that. It did, in effect, convey a big fat corporate message from WotC to its older buyers which basically said "You're playing your game with the wrong sensibilities, from now on you should play it with these new ones."

If WotC had just killed D&D as a brand name and instead published a brand new game system titled Samurai Robot Shogo with Eberron as the main setting, nobody would have been complaining. Old-school D&D players would have been (and would still be) content playing their Western fantasy RPG (maybe a bit sad over the brand's liquidation), while the new, younger audience WotC was aiming for would be content playing Samurai Robot Shogo, and this argument wouldn't be cropping up so regularly.




* Just to make it clear: I'm not trying to attack or lampoon or criticise specifically you at all, I'm just using the example at hand.

** Note to everyone: whether or not it's really all actually anime-inspired, and why not, and how much of it is, and other semantic nitpickery about it is an issue I have zero interest in debating at this point, so I won't.

[Tsotha-lanti]

And thanks to that last piece of art, we now have to deal with people who'll claim by their lifes that the most correct depiction of Marie Antoinette was a super powerfull alien. AAAAARRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Ridiculous exaggeration. Or maybe you just need to stop arguing with 9-year-olds.


Just like that other knight who managed to cut a rock with his sword before he died, and the legend was exagerated and exagerated untill some anime puts said knight taking down mountains with all the ease of the world.

There's an anime about Roland? I want that **** nao.


The conflict lies in that people who like both like you* are a minority, while the majority of folks only like one and are indifferent towards (or downright dislike) the other; and that all too often this majority feels - and sometimes with some reason - that either the "other" group or the "liking both" minority are trying to force them to change their preferences.

That's just BS. Every roleplayer I know offline is either indifferent to both or enjoys both. There is no inherent conflict between early 20th-century fantasy and modern anime, any more than there's an inherent conflict between western cartoons and police procedurals.

Most people are perfectly capable of enjoying more than one kind of entertainment. My enjoyment of theatre does not diminish, or make less likely, my enjoyment of opera or rock-concerts.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Really my main point is that Anime ISN'T all the same plots, or the same art style.

Compare Glassy Ocean, (VERY flat.) Stormy Night, (Has a soft-edged impressionistic quality), Legendz (Switches between simple cartoonish humans and overdetailed monsters) the Original 1980's Astro Boy (Which looks very much like an old Felix the Cat cartoon, if anything.) OCha-Ken (Paper cutout look...) Paprika (Rated R) is absolutely gorgeous, and kinda typical looking- but tends to bend and stretch in unusual ways.

The only other suggestions I can think of are NC-17. (they're not outright pornographic, they're more "shockingly artsy" but...) Dunno the forum rules on those, so I ain't posting the names.

[hamishspence]

Given that one of the earliest D&D visual media I saw was the Shadow over Mystara arcade game, whose character portraits, more than the characters in the game, were anime-ish in style, I'm not annoyed. Now if all the art in the PHB looked like it had been drawn by Pokemon artists, there would be a wailing and a gnashing of teeth :smallbiggrin:

[Premier]

That's just BS. Every roleplayer I know offline is either indifferent to both or enjoys both.

Wow. So just because your personal experience differs from mine, I must be lying, and thus you're authorised to flame me?

But you know what, two can play that game: "Tsotha, what you just wrote is BS. Every roleplayer I know offline has a strong preference of one over the other, and most of them downright dislike all feel indifferent to the other. Your claim is BS, since it differs from my experience."

See? Same reasoning, same language. If your statement is true, then so is mine, as it follows the same logic. If your statement wasn't a flame, then neither was mine, so you have no reason to complain.



There is no inherent conflict between early 20th-century fantasy and modern anime, any more than there's an inherent conflict between western cartoons and police procedurals.

Most people are perfectly capable of enjoying more than one kind of entertainment. My enjoyment of theatre does not diminish, or make less likely, my enjoyment of opera or rock-concerts.

Strawman. This is not about the "inherent" compatibility of different forms of entertainment; this is about people's freedom to choose their own preferences, and other people's lack of freedom to impede the above. To take your example, just because you happen to enjoy both opera and rock, there are still lots of people who only like one or the other, and these people are neither evil nor brain-damaged. Their tastes and preferences should be respected just as much as yours, and you wouldn't have the moral right to ban all classical opera in favour or rock operas, or ban all rock concerts other than ones played in opera houses.

[TheThan]

I think Channel Four used to show various anime in the wee hours of the morning on a friday night, and I used to video them. That's definitely how I first saw Akira, and possibly also Fist of the North Star. Certainly, there has been a massive upsurge in popularity in the last decade [i.e. availability in the shops], but I don't recall any decrying over here. I might not have been paying attention, though.


You're already dead

[Matthew]

Same here, although the implausability didn't bother me as much as the blatant disgregard for the actual mythology. After a while though, it became clear that the shows weren't even bothering to pretend to take themselves seriously and I really enjoyed them.

I meant to include that within implausibility , so I also share that view.



Yes. Yes it does. Not that Ninja Scroll 1 was much better, but at least it was so over the top as to be funny.

Bah! Heresy! [I]Ninja Scroll is awesome! Only wrong thinking people would be unwilling to admit that its greatness is absolute truth! Ninja Scroll]. :smallbiggrin:



I choose to assert my fifth amendment right and not confess to watching Xena for essentially the same reason.

I first watched Hercules, discarded it as rubbish, and didn't bother watching Xena. Then they started putting it on the television on saturday mornings at around 10am. That was pretty much the perfect time for such a show to be on, like the 5pm weekday slot for Star Gate. After that, I was hooked into watching the entire run. Certainly, the sheer volume of scantily clad nubile young women helped with my decision...



You're already dead

I even enjoyed the film version...

[Tengu_temp]

Bah! Heresy! Ninja Scroll is awesome! Only wrong thinking people would be unwilling to admit that its greatness is absolute truth! [i.e. I like Ninja Scroll]. :smallbiggrin:


For me, Ninja Scroll is one of the reasons why some people think anime is just mindless violence and squicky sex.

[Matthew]

For me, Ninja Scroll is one of the reasons why some people think anime is just mindless violence and squicky sex.

Well, since that is analogous to drawing the same conclusions about film from watching Conan the Barbarian, there is no real way to help those sorts of people.

[Oracle_Hunter]

For example, one of the most extreme cases, Marie Antoinette.

-History(real world): Marie was a queen who lived very troubled times for her countries and had a very interesting ife.

-Western legends: Marie was involved in a serie of conspiracies and was actually a great fighter.

-Random manga-Marie Antoinete was actually an alien several millions of years old able to summon a garguantan plant and could take the modern army of the U.S with an hand tied up to her back. I'm not kidding, there was a manga who did this.

Of course, then there was Rose of Versailles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rose_of_Versailles) an excellent (if highly dramatized) retelling of the tale of the last King of France through the eyes of a fictional female noble named Oscar François de Jarjayes. Born to a General who despaired of ever getting a son, she was trained as a soldier and became a bodyguard and confidant to the young queen, Marie Antoinette.

Seriously though, such a weak argument can easily be turned back to the West. Surely you recall the tale (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119654/maindetails) of a secret organization that hides aliens that live among us, often as celebrities such as Newt Gingrich and George Lucas? Or how the Knights Templar started the Freemasons, who counted among their members Ben Franklin and George Washington, and hid with them a fabulous treasure (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368891/) that could be found if you followed clues hidden in the Declaration of independence? And those don't even hit the crap you'd find in made-for-TV-movies or direct-to-video stinkers!

[chiasaur11]

Of course, then there was Rose of Versailles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rose_of_Versailles) an excellent (if highly dramatized) retelling of the tale of the last King of France through the eyes of a fictional female noble named Oscar François de Jarjayes. Born to a General who despaired of ever getting a son, she was trained as a soldier and became a bodyguard and confidant to the young queen, Marie Antoinette.

Seriously though, such a weak argument can easily be turned back to the West. Surely you recall the tale (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119654/maindetails) of a secret organization that hides aliens that live among us, often as celebrities such as Newt Gingrich and George Lucas? Or how the Knights Templar started the Freemasons, who counted among their members Ben Franklin and George Washington, and hid with them a fabulous treasure (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368891/) that could be found if you followed clues hidden in the Declaration of independence? And those don't even hit the crap you'd find in made-for-TV-movies or direct-to-video stinkers!

Or how Abe Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, and Thomas Edison teamed up to fight robot Hitler.

And don't get me started on Tesla.

[Tengu_temp]

Well, since that is analogous to drawing the same conclusions about film from watching Conan the Barbarian, there is no real way to help those sorts of people.

Funny that you mention it, for me Ninja Scroll was basically anime Conan in medieval (pseudo-)Japan. And with that beehive guy, can't forget about him.

[Matthew]

Funny that you mention it, for me Ninja Scroll was basically anime Conan in medieval (pseudo-)Japan. And with that beehive guy, can't forget about him.

The parallels are why I singled out Conan for the analogy (rather than, say, Jane Eyre). :smallwink:

[Oslecamo]

Seriously though, such a weak argument can easily be turned back to the West. Surely you recall the tale (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119654/maindetails) of a secret organization that hides aliens that live among us, often as celebrities such as Newt Gingrich and George Lucas? Or how the Knights Templar started the Freemasons, who counted among their members Ben Franklin and George Washington, and hid with them a fabulous treasure (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368891/) that could be found if you followed clues hidden in the Declaration of independence? And those don't even hit the crap you'd find in made-for-TV-movies or direct-to-video stinkers!

Yeah, there's also that crap, but my brain normally erases it. Manga on the other hand is harder to eliminate due to excessive number of skimpy clothes and women with oversized breasts for their age.

And yes, that means there was cat fight between Marie Antoinette and other female characters. Actually, more of plant tentacle fight. I'm saying too much. Stupid hormones.

Note:I know that there are plenty mangas and anime where half the females aren't milking cows who can't afford anything better than some tiny pieces of cloth, but most of them are girly romance mangas whitout action whatsoever, so I normally don't read them.

Also, one can clearly see a relation where when the mangas started becoming popular in western society, western heros also started to wear skimpier clothes and the female characters started to become more developed. I still didn't decided if I like it or not.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Sir, I'm not going to try to convert you to manga or anime, but I do wish you'd stop blaming it for trends in Western Media which are purely unrelated. The only recent developments that you can pin to Japan are the rise of cartoons that utilize simplified character designs and similar artistic conventions... and possibly a general rise in the quality of the storytelling in American cartoons.

BTW, if you prefer an action anime without busty girls, then may I suggest Mobile Suit Gundam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_suit_gundam)? It is a war story told from the perspective of civilians, dragged into a conflict against their will. It has excellent plot, intense character development, and lots of action - plus it is only about 1/100th as emo as Neon Genesis Evangelion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion_(TV_series)). :smallbiggrin:


Also, one can clearly see a relation where when the mangas started becoming popular in western society, western heros also started to wear skimpier clothes and the female characters started to become more developed. I still didn't decided if I like it or not.

Wonder Woman is but one example of a Pre-Code (1940's) Western Media Icon who wore skimpy clothing and was well endowed... and let's not get into the whole bondage thing. In 1954 the Comic Code Authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_code) put a clamp down on such things for the next 30 or so years, but social changes caused it to lose much of it's force during the 1980's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_code#21st_century). To the surprise of no one, characters like Power Girl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_girl) began bringing the T&A back to comic books.

And in terms of sexuality in other western media - The American New Wave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hollywood#Characteristics_of_the_New_Hollywood _films) of cinema should be explanation enough.

EDIT:
*sigh* as much fun as I enjoy being sarcastic, there's no excuse for being a jerk. Hope I didn't offend any who read it. :smallredface:

[Tsotha-lanti]

Also, one can clearly see a relation where when the mangas started becoming popular in western society, western heros also started to wear skimpier clothes and the female characters started to become more developed. I still didn't decided if I like it or not.

roflmao

I take it you've never read western mainstream comics?

[AstralFire]

Also, one can clearly see a relation where when the mangas started becoming popular in western society, western heros also started to wear skimpier clothes and the female characters started to become more developed. I still didn't decided if I like it or not.

Starfire. I mean, FRICKIN' STARFIRE. The one who changes into costume by going naked in the middle of a city park.

A LOT of the X-Women - Emma Frost is from the 80's, and pushed new boundaries on the unnecessity of clothes with her initial appearance.

Wonder Woman was written by a guy heavily into bondage, did you know that she used to lose her powers when bound at the wrist? Or that her lasso of truth started out as a lasso of dominance?

Daredevil's villainesses. I mean, it wouldn't be so bad if there wasn't Frank Miller involved, but he is.

Power Girl. The majority of her existence is to be a lifesupport system for breasts.

She-Hulk. She changes and hey her clothes rip! Her being spun into a humorous heroine was a modern development.

I'm going to have say that's a very definite 'no'.


Note:I know that there are plenty mangas and anime where half the females aren't milking cows who can't afford anything better than some tiny pieces of cloth, but most of them are girly romance mangas whitout action whatsoever, so I normally don't read them.

I barely watch anime. I will name some action anime that are largely devoid of this:
- Rurouni Kenshin. The closest thing to fanservice is for the women.
- Yu Yu Hakusho. I don't think whatshername is ever without a real shirt.
- Ronin Warriors. If Mia was any less sexy, she'd be Olive Oyl.
- Mobile Suit Gundam, Mobile Suit Gundam Wing... heck, most of Gundam that I've seen.
- Hell, Dragonball only borders on sex appeal twice - once very early in the show and once much later with Krillin's filler girlfriend in DBZ. Roshi's a lech, but the writer doesn't show those tendencies. Again, not a good show, but I do know something about it.

And I can name some very fanservice-heavy girl anime - Onegai Teacher comes to mind.

And no, I'm not an anime fan; I generally prefer Western animation, I won't watch things subtitled for the most part, and I don't care for manga on the whole - the drawing conventions of manga often make it very hard for me to follow action well. But I know a lot of people who do like those things, there are a few I enjoy, and well, there is no knowledge that is not power.

[chiasaur11]

Ah, Powergirl.
When she was created, every issue Wally Wood drew her breasts a little bigger as a joke to see if the editors would catch him.

And they never did.

[Oslecamo]

Yeah, beat me more for still not managing to have readed every single comic published before I was even born.

Wonder woman's clothes are geting shorter and shorter. In the old adventures she weared something like some blue shorts, nowadays half her ass isn't covered. As for the bondage thingy, it's actually more western style. Western heros love to take hits to the face, while oriental heros are normally stupidly agile so nobody manages to land a direct hit on them. Yes, there are dodging western heros and tough oriental heros, but they're in the minority. This is, even Goku, possibly the strongest anime character evar, felt pain from bullets, whereas super man hardly even notices them.

Emma frost and daredevil's girlfriend started as villains, and everybody knows female villains are sluts and dress acordingly no matter what part of the world you're on.

Power girl was more of a joke than anything else.

She-Hulk never growed as big as the hulk, plus her clothes were never that skimpy. She weared a one piece swimsuit for years, and not exactly of the kinky ones. She had to rip clothes because she was a hulk after all.

In Rurorin Kenshi, as far as I remember, most of the girls were still well endowed tough, and the only one who wasn't was actually trying to get bigger. With skimpy ninja clothes. At least in the anime, in the manga not so much.

Dragonball went to sex jokes every other couple of episodes as far as I remember, specially in the beginning. Between Yamsha, Bulma, Goku's inocence and the psycho transforming girl around half the show had a considerable sexual innuendo.

[The Glyphstone]

Ah, Powergirl.
When she was created, every issue Wally Wood drew her breasts a little bigger as a joke to see if the editors would catch him.

And they never did.

Isn't that an urban myth? According to TVtropes, it is, but you know how it goes with Tvtropes and accountability. Their source is This (http://ragnell.blogspot.com/2006/05/power-girl-you-be-judge.html).

[AstralFire]

Yeah, beat me more for still not managing to have readed every single comic published before I was even born.

You do not have to have read all of them; but you did make a claim that I think is on very shaky ground.


Wonder woman's clothes are geting shorter and shorter. In the old adventures she weared something like some blue shorts, nowadays half her ass isn't covered.

That is a general trend which began well before anime hit it big in the US.


As for the bondage thingy, it's actually more western style.

Japanese rope bondage.


Western heros love to take hits to the face, while oriental heros are normally stupidly agile so nobody manages to land a direct hit on them.

Bleach... DBZ... Most Shonen have at least one guy who fights with his face that I know, and some have battles that are indeed very brutal. The tendency is there, though, but I am not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand.


This is, even Goku, possibly the strongest anime character evar, felt pain from bullets, whereas super man hardly even notices them.

Goku's not even close to strongest in either camp (neither is Supes). He and Supes are just among the strongest of the big names on campus. And Goku only felt pain from bullets early on, when he wasn't even Golden Age Superman class.


Emma frost and daredevil's girlfriend started as villains, and everybody knows female villains are sluts and dress acordingly no matter what part of the world you're on.

Western: Harley Quinn (a 90's creation!)
Japanese: Again, Gundam nicely lays waste to this one.


Power girl was more of a joke than anything else.

And that makes it any less true?


She had to rip clothes because she was a hulk after all.

And that makes it any less true?


In Rurorin Kenshi, as far as I remember, most of the girls were still well endowed tough, and the only one who wasn't was actually trying to get bigger.

They may or may not have been; their clothes weren't particularly form-fitting, so I can't say it's ever even noticeable. Which I think says enough.


Dragonball went to sex jokes every other couple of episodes as far as I remember, specially in the beginning. Between Yamsha, Bulma, Goku's inocence and the psycho transforming girl around half the show had a considerable sexual innuendo.

Humorous sexual innuendo I admitted, that's not the same as sexual appeal.

[Starbuck_II]

Humorous sexual innuendo I admitted, that's not the same as sexual appeal.

I still like the bathroom humor: the very 1sy episode had Bulma peeing.

She was trying to do her business behind some bushes when a Pterydactal got her. Goku throw his staff to save her and it was implanted in the mountain: you can see liquid coming down.

I thought that was funny and not something you see very often.

[Oslecamo]

Japanese: Again, Gundam nicely lays waste to this one.


It would lay waste, if actually it hapened in our world, but alas, it's in space and alien worlds.

Besides, if we're allowed to use any example from anywhere, then I can refute all and any argument you make, because there will always be an artist who seeks to go against the trend.

Wich would mean TV tropes is all wrong because there are no tropes.

Wich would mean you're a anime/gaming heretic and blasphmer.

EDIT: Woot finally reached Ogre level!

[AstralFire]

Besides, if we're allowed to use any example from anywhere, then I can refute all and any argument you make, because there will always be an artist who seeks to go against the trend.

Wich would mean TV tropes is all wrong because there are no tropes.

Wich would mean you're a anime/gaming heretic and blasphmer.

Well, TV Tropes isn't exactly that great anyway.

And no, it doesn't work like that. I'm not making an argument, I'm casting doubt on yours; there is a difference. I am not a comics historian, most of what I know I've picked up casually from watching the real comic geeks speak. The same goes for my anime knowledge; there's not a lot I all out go crazy for myself. And even my superficial knowledge was able to pull out a large amount of counter examples.

If you don't like something, that's fine. You're allowed to not like it, and I wouldn't have said anything if you had left it at that. The 'influence' of anime that you cited, though, doesn't seem to be noticeable. Anime and manga have influenced western art, but sexuality isn't something we needed help on.