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nc-edsl
2008-10-09, 11:55 AM
Does anyone know of a way to increase the number of spells a Sorcerer knows?

Zeful
2008-10-09, 11:56 AM
Extra Spell feat and knowstones. That is all.

nc-edsl
2008-10-09, 11:57 AM
What book(s) are those from?

Kyeudo
2008-10-09, 11:58 AM
The Sand Shaper PrC from Sandstorm practically doubles the spells you have known, but costs you some caster levels. Which spells you gain are fixed, but most are fairly useful, so you can use your regular spells known to round them out.

Also, there is the Ultimate Magi or somesuch PrC from Complete Mage. It requires that you take Wizard levels to enter, but you can add a few spells from your Wizard spellbook to your Sorcerer spells known.

AmberVael
2008-10-09, 12:04 PM
There are a few other PrCs which do it as well. Frostmage from Frostburn gives you a few extra spells known. Fiend Blooded from Heroes of Horror will give you a number of spells known (of your choice, with some limitations).

Also, there are some other feats which add to spells known- the Bloodline feats from Dragon Magazine (which can also be found online at realmshelps) give one spell per spell level (though they are pre-chosen for you).

Zeful
2008-10-09, 12:05 PM
What book(s) are those from?

Knowstones are Dragon magazine 331 and work like pearls of power.

Extra spell is from Complete Arcane.

There are also heritage feats that give extra spells known, but aren't really worth it.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-09, 12:09 PM
Mage of the Arcane Order.

Ponce
2008-10-09, 12:10 PM
There is a feat called Mother Cyst that adds a bunch of necrotic-cyst-related spells to your known repertoire. I don't know if there are similar feats if you aren't interested in mastering undead pustules.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-09, 12:11 PM
Just thinking about the bloodline feats; if you don't think any of the existing ones are worthwhile, could you ask the DM if you could make a custom one for your character?

Glimbur
2008-10-09, 12:41 PM
Runestaves from Magic Item Compendium.

Starsinger
2008-10-09, 12:43 PM
Runestaves from Magic Item Compendium.

Doesn't technically increase your spells known, however it does add utility to a Sorcerer.

valadil
2008-10-09, 12:44 PM
Just thinking about the bloodline feats; if you don't think any of the existing ones are worthwhile, could you ask the DM if you could make a custom one for your character?

I like these a lot. They're from Dragon Magazine and Dragon Compendium. Best of all, they aren't limited to sorcerers, just spontaneous arcane casters, so you can boost Bard, Beguiler, and Duskblade spell lists too. Usually they each only have one or two spells you want, but a couple have three or four good ones.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-09, 01:32 PM
You need to be able to summon a familiar to take those feats sadly. :smallfrown: I agree that they are neat, though. (I often have trouble deciding which feats would be useful, but I'd definitly take one of those in order to get the extra spells).

Fax Celestis
2008-10-09, 02:09 PM
Complete Champion Domain Sorceror Variant helps a bit, but its main function is giving you a few normally divine spells as arcane ones. Sorcerors with the Healing domain get a bit...weird.

Starsinger
2008-10-09, 02:13 PM
Complete Champion Domain Sorceror Variant helps a bit, but its main function is giving you a few normally divine spells as arcane ones. Sorcerors with the Healing domain get a bit...weird.

Why? I dunno much about Complete Champion.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-09, 02:24 PM
Why? I dunno much about Complete Champion.

Well, the CCham variant gives you every domain spell as a spell known for free. IIRC, it does NOT give you the domain power.

However, it allows you to take Customize Domain (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Customize_Domain,all), an easily breakable feat by itself, as a sorceror. Which means you can replace things like mass cure light wounds with raise dead, or cure critical wounds with panacea, or regenerate with greater restoration.

And that's just the Healing Domain. Think of what you could do with other domains (Luck and War, in particular).

Starsinger
2008-10-09, 02:26 PM
Well, the CCham variant gives you every domain spell as a spell known for free. IIRC, it does NOT give you the domain power.

However, it allows you to take Customize Domain (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Customize_Domain,all), an easily breakable feat by itself, as a sorceror. Which means you can replace things like mass cure light wounds with raise dead, or cure critical wounds with panacea, or regenerate with greater restoration.

And that's just the Healing Domain. Think of what you could do with other domains (Luck and War, in particular).

Ohh... Thanks Fax

AmberVael
2008-10-09, 02:29 PM
Well, the CCham variant gives you every domain spell as a spell known for free. IIRC, it does NOT give you the domain power.

First off, you have to pay for the variant with a spell known every level- so you don't know more spells, you just get some from a domain list.

You do get the domain power.

You can only cast each domain spell once per day.

It's a terrible, terrible variant, IMO.

Edit: Holy crap, am I correcting and opposing Fax?! What is the world coming to? I must pay for my blasphemy! Seppuku! SEPPUKU!
*commits suicide with a pen*

Cuddly
2008-10-09, 02:37 PM
Isn't there some PrC trick that lets you know all cleric spells? Does that only work with Favored Soul?

Fax Celestis
2008-10-09, 02:38 PM
First off, you have to pay for the variant with a spell known every level- so you don't know more spells, you just get some from a domain list.

You do get the domain power.

You can only cast each domain spell once per day.

It's a terrible, terrible variant, IMO.

Depends on the domain. Also, you can couple it with Arcane Disciple for extra arcane/divine strangeness.

mostlyharmful
2008-10-09, 02:46 PM
Isn't there some PrC trick that lets you know all cleric spells? Does that only work with Favored Soul?

Rainbow Servant PrC, 10 levels long but you lose 4 caster levels. Very flavourful but pre-epic a bit sub-optimal. Personally I like to let a Sorc choose any spell, from any list, as spells known. I've been doing it since before favoured soul. There's some interpretations of the PHB that'll coincide with the idea of "all spells up for grabs" for Sorcs as well.

Also you can go a long way with broad choices, spells that can cover a whole lot of ground. Dig up Solos Guide if you want a solid look at Sorcs spell selection within the written framework.

AmberVael
2008-10-09, 02:47 PM
Depends on the domain. Also, you can couple it with Arcane Disciple for extra arcane/divine strangeness.

Using it with Arcane Disciple would be...
...
Very, very ineffective.
You'd lose a LOT of versatility that way, especially since you can only cast each of your divine spells one time, but they still take up spell known slots.
And sorcerers don't get many spell slots. You'd be limiting yourself to about one or two spells per day in your highest slots, thus effectively limiting the sorcerer's one true power (as demonstrated by Xykon :smallwink:), which is lots of spells per day.

Anyways, the variant effectively preselects your first highest level spell, decreases your spells per day, and in return allows you access to a few spells you couldn't normally cast, and a single power which (if not a caster level bonus) is outclassed by the time you hit level 5.
I'm not a fan.

Douglas
2008-10-09, 02:49 PM
Isn't there some PrC trick that lets you know all cleric spells? Does that only work with Favored Soul?
Rainbow Servant's capstone adds all cleric spells to your class list, but you still have to learn them normally. Also, unless you can talk your DM into following the RAW text-trumps-table despite it being obviously not as intended, you lose 4 levels of spell progression.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-09, 02:53 PM
Using it with Arcane Disciple would be...
...
Very, very ineffective.
You'd lose a LOT of versatility that way, especially since you can only cast each of your divine spells one time, but they still take up spell known slots.
And sorcerers don't get many spell slots. You'd be limiting yourself to about one or two spells per day in your highest slots, thus effectively limiting the sorcerer's one true power (as demonstrated by Xykon :smallwink:), which is lots of spells per day.

Anyways, the variant effectively preselects your first highest level spell, decreases your spells per day, and in return allows you access to a few spells you couldn't normally cast, and a single power which (if not a caster level bonus) is outclassed by the time you hit level 5.
I'm not a fan.

Oh, I didn't say it would be zomgpowerful; it'd just be a way to get spells you couldn't normally get onto your list.

I'm still trying to find a way to get flame blade onto a Duskblade's spell list, but that's another story.

AmberVael
2008-10-09, 02:56 PM
I'm still trying to find a way to get flame blade onto a Duskblade's spell list, but that's another story.

Two levels of Fiend Blooded from Heroes of Horror. You add any one Necromancy, Illusion, Enchantment spell, or spell with the fire descriptor to your spells known.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-09, 03:01 PM
Two levels of Fiend Blooded from Heroes of Horror. You add any one Necromancy, Illusion, Enchantment spell, or spell with the fire descriptor to your spells known.

Doesn't that have CL loss, though? And I thought that specified arcane-only. S'been a while since I read that particular bit, though, so I could be way off base.

AmberVael
2008-10-09, 03:02 PM
It has a CL loss, yes... at the tenth level. :smallamused:

And it specifically gives the example of Speak with Dead and points out that it is a divine spell, but that you could still take it since it falls into the categories.
Incidentally, a duskblade could meet all prereqs and get into the class as his 6th level. It's a perfect match, really.

KillianHawkeye
2008-10-09, 03:07 PM
Well, the CCham variant gives you every domain spell as a spell known for free. IIRC, it does NOT give you the domain power.

However, it allows you to take Customize Domain (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Customize_Domain,all), an easily breakable feat by itself, as a sorceror. Which means you can replace things like mass cure light wounds with raise dead, or cure critical wounds with panacea, or regenerate with greater restoration.

And that's just the Healing Domain. Think of what you could do with other domains (Luck and War, in particular).

Not to nitpick, but according to the link provided...


Prerequisite: At least one domain, ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells.
Benefit: Choose one of your cleric domains. You permanently exchange spells on your domain spell list for similar spells on any spell list you have access to. You customize your domain when you choose this feat; you cannot later change your domain spells or return to your original domain spell list. You can only choose to substitute spells that are of equal or lower level and that adhere to the following restrictions by domain. Note that certain spells gain descriptors depending on how they're cast; you can choose such a spell as a spell with the descriptor you require so long as you only cast the spell in such a manner as to give it that descriptor.

((emphasis added))

So unless the domain variant allows a Sorcerer to cast his domain spells as divine spells rather than as arcane spells, he can't even take this feat without some special DM approval. And even if he could take it, he can only replace spells with similar spells from his own spell list that he could already choose from, so no raise dead or anything else unless you take a dip in another spellcasting class just to get their spell list.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-09, 03:10 PM
So unless the domain variant allows a Sorcerer to cast his domain spells as divine spells rather than as arcane spells, he can't even take this feat without some special DM approval.

It does, IIRC.

Darrin
2008-10-09, 03:32 PM
You need to be able to summon a familiar to take those feats sadly. :smallfrown: I agree that they are neat, though. (I often have trouble deciding which feats would be useful, but I'd definitly take one of those in order to get the extra spells).

Obtain Familiar (Complete Arcane, p. 81) will fix that.

Draconic Legacy will also add about three spells known, depending on which draconic heritage you select. Extremely costly in feats, however. Unseen Seer can also add known spells via Advanced Learning, but can be difficult to qualify for without losing caster levels.

Bloodline feats from Dragon are probably the easiest way to add spells known. They are a trade-off, however... some are much better than others.

Air Bloodline: Gains mostly [air] spells but no flight or feather fall. Lose [earth] spells, but oddly enough not stoneskin or flesh to stone.
Rating: B+

Anarchic Bloodline: Gains color spray, mislead, prismatic spray... some good spells here, although maybe a bit weighted towards mind-effects. Loses [lawful] spells, of which Sor/Wiz have hardly any.
Rating: A+

Aquatic Fey Bloodline: About half charm/half water-related spells, but some really useful gems in here: alter self, charm monster, horrid wilting. You have to give up all conjuration (healing) (hah!) and all conjuration (creation) (*ACK* *HARSH*). So no grease, no orb spells, which means no easy way to hurt high-SR enemies. A bit too costly.
Rating: D+

Axiomatic Bloodline: Huh... kinda weighted toward divination. True seeing, forcecage, and dominate monster are all great, but detect chaos and locate object are kinda snoozers. You might want to skip the lower level stuff early on. Have to give up [chaotic] spells, which means almost nothing to a Sor/Wiz. So no downside, but upside doesn't really kick in until the higher levels.
Rating: B

Celestial Bloodline: Ok, the shiny happy end of the alignment-based bloodlines... some good anti-undead spells here, but nothing really stands out as sexy. You give up [evil] spells, which takes a good chunk out of the necromancy school for Sor/Wiz. Other than that, not much downside, and you have some spells that work well against undead and evil outsiders.
Rating: B-

Draconic Bloodline: Starts off a bit weak, but strong finish with True Seeing, Mind Blank, and Dominate Monster. While none of these spells really screams out "Dragon", they do a decent job at evoking most of a dragon's basic abilities. A much better deal than sinking 5 feats into Draconic Legacy. The downside is a bit odd, since you have to negotiate with the DM on what you want to give up, which most likely means an energy descriptor opposite to your chosen dragon's breath weapon. So, probably not a bad deal.
Rating: A-

Earth Bloodline: Wow, probably the most interesting selection of spells so far, mostly utility or buff. Hard to find a real stinker... well, ok, I'm not sure how often transmute mud to rock would come up. No stoneskin, though... sigh. You have to give up [air] spells... but hey, you can still fly, so no worries.
Rating: A

Fey Bloodline: A mix of *extremely* useful spells (glitterdust, mislead, irresistable dance) with some not-so-useful (detect secret doors, tongues, hallucinatory terrain). You give up spells to create or control undead, but hey, you've still got access to most of the really nasty necromancy stuff (enervation, finger of death).
Rating: B+

Fiendish Bloodline: And now down towards the "naughty" end of the spectrum... ok, not quite so underwhelming as the Celestial bloodline, but nothing really standing out as particularly nasty. Gives up [good] spells, which is nothing you'll ever need anyway. But... nightmare? Really, that's supposed to be evil? Hmm-kay...
Rating: C-

Fire Bloodline: Shove this firmly into the "what were they thinking?" column. I want to burn things, and they give me hypnotism, pyrotechnics, tongues?!?!? No burning hands, scorching ray, or fireball? Ok, fine, eventually you get meteor storm, but... no, a fire bloodline feat that barely gives you any [fire] spells? Lame.
Rating: Epic Fail.

Illithid Bloodline: Pretty much every "I want to screw with people's heads" spell you could ever want. So, while anything immune to mind-effects will happily squish you, they definitely *nailed* the squidface flavor perfectly. Have to give up some transmutation stuff like alter self and polymorph... ouch!
Rating: C+

Necromantic Bloodline: Awww... no Enervation?!? Big disappointment there, but the rest are all fairly solid save or suck/die spells. Unfortunately, most of them require touch attacks, and standing within melee range is not where most spellcasters should be. On the upside, there is no downside. Sorcerers have zero conjuration (healing) spells, so you don't lose anything taking this feat.
Rating: A

Penumbra Bloodline: Oh, look, shadows... lets be all emo and creepy... well, not a lot of great spells here, although Evard's Black Tentacles is darned near worth it all by itself. Planeshift is also quite useful. If you're doing a Killer Gnome build, then this one's a gimme for the two shadow evocation spells, otherwise... if you have to have evocations, might as well get the *real* ones. Have to give up [light] spells, which isn't a big deal... anything that could get hurt with a [light] spell can probably also get torn apart by black tentacles (except maybe for incorporeal undead).
Rating: C-

Plant Bloodline: Well, ok, not nearly as boring as it sounds. But then, nothing really exciting until Imprisonment, which is a long ways off. You lose [death] spells, so none of that slay living or finger of death stuff... not sure it's worth the trade-off.
Rating: D

Serpent Bloodline: Some kinda flavorful picks here, and then you finish off with the power word spells... nice, if a bit heavy on the mind-effects stuff. No poison, though? Are we constrictor snakes, then? But wait a minute... no fly spells? Yowch!
Rating: D

Water Bloodline: Hmmm... some general utility spells here. Pick up the normally druid-only quench, rock to mud and freezing sphere are good, and expeditious retreat is always handy. Not surprising, you give up [fire] spells, but hey, that's the most common energy resistance/immunity in the game.
Rating: B

Kurald Galain
2008-10-09, 03:39 PM
I'm still trying to find a way to get flame blade onto a Duskblade's spell list, but that's another story.

I'm surprised to learn it's not on any domain list that I know of... so how about the Arcane Hierophant prestige class?

Draz74
2008-10-09, 03:40 PM
Edit: Holy crap, am I correcting and opposing Fax?! What is the world coming to? I must pay for my blasphemy! Seppuku! SEPPUKU!
*commits suicide with a pen*

... Actually, one of the reasons that Fax is a popular fellow on these Forums, compared with some of the other "I post more than anyone else" people we've seen come and go, is that he's actually willing to admit that he's wrong and take criticism in a constructive way.

And everybody is wrong sometimes, of course. Maybe Fax less often than average, but only slightly. :smallwink:

mostlyharmful
2008-10-09, 03:43 PM
... Actually, one of the reasons that Fax is a popular fellow on these Forums, compared with some of the other "I post more than anyone else" people we've seen come and go, is that he's actually willing to admit that he's wrong and take criticism in a constructive way.

And everybody is wrong sometimes, of course. Maybe Fax less often than average, but only slightly. :smallwink:

I'll second that. the first time I interacted with Fax both He and I were wrong, he admitted it and moved on. That being said it's the only time I've known Fax to be actually wrong in a couple of years.

KillianHawkeye
2008-10-09, 03:49 PM
It does, IIRC.

Okay, I wasn't sure about that. But as written you'd still get hit by the spell list thing, I'm afraid.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-09, 04:05 PM
I'll second that. the first time I interacted with Fax both He and I were wrong, he admitted it and moved on. That being said it's the only time I've known Fax to be actually wrong in a couple of years.

Well, there tends to an inverse correlation between somebody's willingness to admit being wrong, and that person actually being wrong.

This makes perfect sense if you think about it. One who can't admit his mistakes, can't learn from them. And those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Fizban
2008-10-09, 06:02 PM
Prestige Classes:
Frost Mage, Frostburn: adds some cold related spells, not very useful, but easy to qualify for, you have to keep taking the class to get the spells.
Sandshaper, Sandstorm: adds a ton of desert spells, including some walls, damage, save or X, and a summon at every level. Gets all spells known at first level, but loses a full level of casting. Finishing the class loses another casting level, but gets you free resurrections and some free metamagic. Open to any neutral that can take the prerequisite feat.
Fiend-Blooded, Heroes of Horror: adds spells of your choice within a wide range, but Knowledge: The Planes means that you can't actually qualify as a low level Sorcerer. Try the feats Educated, Apprentice, or Knowledge Devotion to add it as a class skill, or call shenanigans on your DM.
Exalted Arcanist, Book of Exalted Deeds: adds a couple bonus spells known and caps with the ability to cast all sanctified spells as if you knew them.
Some Thingy From Dragon Magazine: gives a ton of spells known at each level, but doesn't give you new levels, dip only and not even that.
Rainbow Servant, Complete Divine: loses 4 levels of casting but caps by adding all cleric spells to your class list. Doesn't add any spells know for Sorcerer, but a Warmage or other class that knows all the spells on it's class list (with that phrasing) would learn all cleric spells. Easy enough to get into otherwise.
Wild Soul, Complete Mage: grants you a domain like list of specific spells from 1-9 (good list and evil list), also grants a summoning SLA with a unique list. Credit to Kiyona (below) for reminding me of this.

Items:
Knowstones, Dragon Magazine: item that grants you a specific spell known, costs as much as a pearl of power for that level, and you only need it on your person (jewelry version's wouldn't take item slots).
Runestaves, Magic Item Compendium: let you cast any spell from the staff's set up to three times per day, you can only be attuned to one staff at a time (24 hours to switch), not too pricey.
Drake Helm, Some Eberron Book: a helmet that holds 1-4 slots that can be filled with spells of up to a certain level, which you then cast. Costs a lot more than Knowstones, but you can change the spells with a scroll or friendly caster. (Credit to Aquillon)

Feats:
Extra Spell, Complete Arcane: adds a spell of any level other than your highest, rules generally say that it must be of your normal list, but people will argue for any spell.
Draconic Legacy, Complete Arcane/Races of the Dragon: end of a feat chain that grants 3 or 4 thematic spells, requires 3 or 4 feats to take fully.
Fiendish/Celestial Legacy, PHBII: as Draconic.
_________ Bloodline, Dragon Magazine: grants a domain-like list of spells from 1st to 9th, with a minor restriction on other spells (no light spells for shadow bloodline, for example). Many DM's think they're overpowered.

Variants:
Planar Sorcerer, Planar Handbook: lets you trade in a mid level spell known for the ability to summon monster at every level, but restricted to elementals, good, or evil. Edit: actually that's a substitution level with no requirements, meh.

Substitution Levels: too many to remember, but there's usually one per races book that loses a few spells known and gains more than it lost, but off a set list. Raptoran wasn't too bad.

Other:
That Rite of Draconic Passage ritual web enhancement thing that lets you cast 1 level higher would give you more spells known than your level, simply because you're effectively always one level ahead.

That's all I know off the top of my head.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-09, 09:51 PM
There's also a BoEF class that adds a single pre-chosen domain to your list of known spells with just a dip, but that usually isn't acceptable in many groups.

Charlie Kemek
2008-10-09, 10:00 PM
actually, for the rainbow savent, you don't loose the levels because text trumps table.

RTGoodman
2008-10-09, 10:02 PM
actually, for the rainbow savent, you don't loose the levels because text trumps table.

Indeed, even though I think people usually say the table is the one that's supposed to be right.

Also, I think Rainbow Savant Servant is in Complete Divine, not BoED, but I might be wrong.

monty
2008-10-09, 10:05 PM
Indeed, even though I think people usually say the table is the one that's supposed to be right.

Also, I think Rainbow Savant is in Complete Divine, not BoED, but I might be wrong.

Rainbow Servant is in Complete Divine, yes.

Douglas
2008-10-09, 10:44 PM
actually, for the rainbow savent, you don't loose the levels because text trumps table.
By RAW you are correct. Good luck getting your DM to not houserule it the other way.

Rei_Jin
2008-10-09, 10:49 PM
It depends on whether you're after extra spells per day, or extra spells known.

For extra spells per day, you need to pick up Memento Magica (Page 164 of the Magic Item compendium

For extra spells known, you need to pick up a Runestaff (Page 176 of the Magic Item Compendium)


Of course, there's various options in terms of prestige classes and feats, but they require much pre-planning. The items listed can be purchased without too much hassle as long as your DM doesn't say no.

RTGoodman
2008-10-09, 11:19 PM
Rainbow Servant is in Complete Divine, yes.

Yeah, yeah, whatever. It started with an "s," and I was going off of Charlie's misspelling anyway. :smallwink:

Fizban
2008-10-09, 11:43 PM
Indeed, even though I think people usually say the table is the one that's supposed to be right.

Also, I think Rainbow Savant is in Complete Divine, not BoED, but I might be wrong.

What? Nooooo! Fixed.


actually, for the rainbow savent, you don't loose the levels because text trumps table.

True, but this is one of those few cases where I feel it's obvious enough not to bother. Extra Spell, Hellfire Warlock/Legacy Champion, those are shaky but arguable, this is just editing failure.

Also: anyone else think it's bogus that the Memento Magicka costs more than a pearl of power? True, the pearl only gives you back a spell you'd already prepared, so no extra versatility, but that's part of the class. Psions get to use the pearl for equivalent pp, no reason a sorcerer shouldn't be able to use a pearl for the same slot.

Zeful
2008-10-09, 11:57 PM
What? Nooooo! Fixed.



True, but this is one of those few cases where I feel it's obvious enough not to bother. Extra Spell, Hellfire Warlock/Legacy Champion, those are shaky but arguable, this is just editing failure.

Also: anyone else think it's bogus that the Memento Magicka costs more than a pearl of power? True, the pearl only gives you back a spell you'd already prepared, so no extra versatility, but that's part of the class. Psions get to use the pearl for equivalent pp, no reason a sorcerer shouldn't be able to use a pearl for the same slot.

I've been told that it's because it's Wizards of the Coast rather than Sorcerers of the Coast.

nc-edsl
2008-10-10, 12:10 AM
Does anyone know if it's possible to take the feat 'Alacritous Cogitation' (from Complete Mage) more than once? If it is, a Wizard might be able to achieve a decent amount of spontaneous casting.

The feat lets a Wizard leave a spell slot open, then later spend a full-round action to use it to cast any spell they know of an equal or lower level. However, it does mention that you can only use the feat once per day. Does this mean "only one spontaneous spell per day" or "only one spontaneous spell per feat"?

Rei_Jin
2008-10-10, 12:11 AM
I've been told that it's because it's Wizards of the Coast rather than Sorcerers of the Coast.

I wish they were the Prestidigitators of the Pacific, then things wouldn't get all overpowered and stuff, they'd just be weird and wonderful and able to inspire awe in the populace, not fear. :smalltongue:

monty
2008-10-10, 12:13 AM
Does anyone know if it's possible to take the feat 'Alacritous Cogitation' (from Complete Mage) more than once? If it is, a Wizard might be able to achieve a decent amount of spontaneous casting.

The feat lets a Wizard leave a spell slot open, then later spend a full-round action to use it to cast any spell they know of an equal or lower level. However, it does mention that you can only use the feat once per day. Does this mean "only one spontaneous spell per day" or "only one spontaneous spell per feat"?

If it doesn't say you can take it more than once, you can't take it more than once.

Kiyona
2008-10-10, 07:38 AM
There is a prestige class in complete mage, Wild Soul, that gets you one extra spell known for every spell level from 1 to 9. You also got to summon specific monster 3 times/day as a spell like ability. You loose one spellcasting level though, so it might not be worth it.

I like it though. My pet Aranea is awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Zeful
2008-10-10, 01:21 PM
Does anyone know if it's possible to take the feat 'Alacritous Cogitation' (from Complete Mage) more than once? If it is, a Wizard might be able to achieve a decent amount of spontaneous casting.

The feat lets a Wizard leave a spell slot open, then later spend a full-round action to use it to cast any spell they know of an equal or lower level. However, it does mention that you can only use the feat once per day. Does this mean "only one spontaneous spell per day" or "only one spontaneous spell per feat"?

No, you can't. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Alacritous_Cogitation,CM) You can, however, leave every spell slot open and then simply cast whatever you need for that day. All as full-round actions, even if the spell would otherwise take longer.

Douglas
2008-10-10, 01:32 PM
You seem to have missed the last sentence of the feat description before the special section. 1/day only.

Zeful
2008-10-10, 01:47 PM
Yes I did, my mistake.

Paul H
2008-10-10, 04:13 PM
Hi

Forgive me if this is a silly question, but why go Sorceror in the first place if you want masses of spells known? Somebody's already pointed out the Runestaves from Magic Item Compendium.

If you want to be a combat blaster, then Warmage is for you. Beguiler is another option. They both know ALL the spells on their spell list, and Rainbow Servant works well with both. (Adding ALL Cleric spells to spells on list justs adds all spells to spells known). You still lose four caster levels/spells known, though. On the Upside you also gain the spells & Domain Powers of Air, Good & Law.

If you just want utility spells, or you're using Draconic feats, then stay Sorceror, just use a Runestaff for blasting, etc. If your primary theme is blasting, Warmage outstrips a Wizard, just use a Runestaff for Fly, Teleport, etc. Ther's also ither items in MIc (eg. Raiment of the Four) that allow you to use your spell slots to cast new spells.

Note: May be a bit biased - going through a Warmage/Beguiler phase at moment! :smallbiggrin:

Hope this helps
Paul H

PS Yes you do lose 4 lvls in Rainbow Servant - Wizards have got a specific FAQ on that one, as it's the one exception to 'Text Trumps Tables' rule.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-10, 04:25 PM
Hi

Forgive me if this is a silly question, but why go Sorceror in the first place if you want masses of spells known? Somebody's already pointed out the Runestaves from Magic Item Compendium.

If you want to be a combat blaster, then Warmage is for you. Beguiler is another option. They both know ALL the spells on their spell list, and Rainbow Servant works well with both. (Adding ALL Cleric spells to spells on list justs adds all spells to spells known). You still lose four caster levels/spells known, though. On the Upside you also gain the spells & Domain Powers of Air, Good & Law.

If you just want utility spells, or you're using Draconic feats, then stay Sorceror, just use a Runestaff for blasting, etc. If your primary theme is blasting, Warmage outstrips a Wizard, just use a Runestaff for Fly, Teleport, etc. Ther's also ither items in MIc (eg. Raiment of the Four) that allow you to use your spell slots to cast new spells.

Note: May be a bit biased - going through a Warmage/Beguiler phase at moment! :smallbiggrin:

Hope this helps
Paul H

PS Yes you do lose 4 lvls in Rainbow Servant - Wizards have got a specific FAQ on that one, as it's the one exception to 'Text Trumps Tables' rule.Multiple issues with that. First, Warmage is far inferior to a Sorcerer, even if you only look at blasting ability. Second, FAQ IS NOT RAW! The FAQ people have been flat out wrong before, they will be again. If you get a Sage response, 2 CustServ responses, and an FAQ response, likely all 4 will be different, and they will all still be wrong. Wizards is useless for rulings like these.

Temp.
2008-10-10, 05:13 PM
If you want to be a combat blaster, then Warmage is for you.
1. Warmages effectively have much more limited spellcasting because although they have a larger number of spells, they have a much smaller number of unique effects they can create with those spells.
2. Warmage spells suck even for blaster mages. Once you start introducing splatbooks, goodies like Moonbow emerge, as well as Metamagic spells like the Spell Matrices, Imbue Familiar with Spell ability and Arcane Spellsurge that drastically improve blasting ability.

Fizban
2008-10-10, 07:18 PM
Huh, I just realized I mis-remembered Rainbow Servant. While the Exalted Arcanist does indeed give you all sanctified spells known, Rainbow Servant only adds them to your class list. As was mentioned, Warmages/Beguilers/Dread Necromancers know all the spells on their class list, and so learn all cleric spells, but Sorcerers don't. Which makes Rainbow Servant significantly worse, and allows for the possibility that the text should trump the table.

Knowing WoTC and their theurge-phobia, they probably did mean to lose 4 levels to be able to learn cleric spells (though a Mystic Theurge would be casting the same spells a level sooner, and with a whole extra spells per day table), and even limited flight is priced way to high.

Draz74
2008-10-10, 07:28 PM
Psions get to use the pearl for equivalent pp, no reason a sorcerer shouldn't be able to use a pearl for the same slot.

For what it's worth, Cognizance Crystals don't give you extra PP, just store it. They actually kind of suck unless you regularly take a "day off" of down time between each adventuring day.

Zeful
2008-10-10, 07:38 PM
For what it's worth, Cognizance Crystals don't give you extra PP, just store it. They actually kind of suck unless you regularly take a "day off" of down time between each adventuring day.

Or if you have any PP left at the end of the day and don't want it to go to waste. Since charging's at a 1-to-1 ratio you can, even after a hard day's adventuring have enough pp to put the eqivalent of 1 3rd level power into it. On power light days you should easily pull 30 pp together to place in a cognizance crystal.

Paul H
2008-10-10, 08:29 PM
1. Warmages effectively have much more limited spellcasting because although they have a larger number of spells, they have a much smaller number of unique effects they can create with those spells.
2. Warmage spells suck even for blaster mages. Once you start introducing splatbooks, goodies like Moonbow emerge, as well as Metamagic spells like the Spell Matrices, Imbue Familiar with Spell ability and Arcane Spellsurge that drastically improve blasting ability.

Hi

Not exactly sure of your logic, here. Surely the flexibility of knowing more spells as a spontaneous caster beats having to memorise spells in advance, from a limited list?

As for Moonbow (SpC) - seen better on Warmage list. Warmages can even take Moonbow with Advanced Learning. Prefer Wall of Force, myself....
many of the 'effects' that wizards can power their spells with also work with Warmages.

Cheers
Paul H

Temp.
2008-10-10, 08:52 PM
Surely the flexibility of knowing more spells as a spontaneous caster beats having to memorise spells in advance, from a limited list?
I wouldn't say so, when about 2/3 of the spell list consists of variations on the same effect: direct damage. A Sorcerer covers all of those with maybe 3 spells (one ignoring SR, one for single targets, one for groups) and the Energy Substitution feat.
The Warmage list has a couple winners like Stinking Cloud and Black Tentacles, but most of it is either Direct Damage or complete junk. The Sorcerer can grab the few winners on the Warmage list as well as spells with drastically expanded utility--the standard Wizard save-or-sucks, all sorts of groovy SpC rays, buffs and metamagic spells to increase action-output.


As for Moonbow (SpC) - seen better on Warmage list. Warmages can even take Moonbow with Advanced Learning. Prefer Wall of Force, myself....
And the Sorcerer doesn't have to choose.

Chronos
2008-10-11, 01:28 AM
Basically, Warmages have one spell: Blast. They can blast in a whole bunch of different ways, but it's all still just blasting. For comparison, for a psion, blasting in a whole bunch of different ways really is just one spell power, and they can know a bunch of other, completely different powers, too.

Teron
2008-10-11, 02:21 AM
I've never gotten to use it, but cerebrosis from Dragon 330 looks fun. With your DM's permission, you can make a knowledge check, spend a few thousand gold pieces, and sacrifice a point of constitution to learn eleven Far Realm themed spells you can't get any other way. Their usefulness varies, but you can make wills saves to cast significantly more powerful versions if you're willing to risk the nasty consequences for failure. There's a couple of fear spells, four spells that summon specific critters, a couple save-or-die's that can potentially affect multiple targets, a 3rd level save-or-daze, a 9th level nuke and a 3rd level teleportation spell that might randomly kill you.

It's a must for alienists, at any rate.

Paul H
2008-10-11, 08:39 AM
I wouldn't say so, when about 2/3 of the spell list consists of variations on the same effect: direct damage. A Sorcerer covers all of those with maybe 3 spells (one ignoring SR, one for single targets, one for groups) and the Energy Substitution feat.
The Warmage list has a couple winners like Stinking Cloud and Black Tentacles, but most of it is either Direct Damage or complete junk. The Sorcerer can grab the few winners on the Warmage list as well as spells with drastically expanded utility--the standard Wizard save-or-sucks, all sorts of groovy SpC rays, buffs and metamagic spells to increase action-output.


And the Sorcerer doesn't have to choose.

Hi

One point of view - certainly Warmages are just killing machines, little more. But you still have to choose - you only get so many spells known. (Though some like Mass Fly are very useful). Don't forget that Energy Substitution makes that a FULL ROUND action to cast. (Spont caster). It also takes up a feat slot.

The Moonbow spell mentioned was just a Bonus spell learned through Advanced Learning. (Must be Evocation). I tend to learn Tenser's Disk, Leomund's Hut, Wall of Force, etc.

Question is are you a killing machine, with a few staves for those useful spells you can only dream of, or have maybe only one or two spells for most circumstances?

Your build obviously suits you. Mine suits me. (I use Beguiler for Utility, but with different staves/items for 'blasting').

Lastly - it's probably more than 2/3 spells doing damage, :smallwink: but I wouldn't call them junk. Specialising is specialising. (Normally play a Cleric/Warmage/Mystic Theurge build with a Beguiler Cohort).

Thanks
Paul H

Starbuck_II
2008-10-11, 10:25 AM
Basically, Warmages have one spell: Blast. They can blast in a whole bunch of different ways, but it's all still just blasting. For comparison, for a psion, blasting in a whole bunch of different ways really is just one spell power, and they can know a bunch of other, completely different powers, too.

Lets not be hasty: Warmages can use some spells like Black Tentacles.

Paul H
2008-10-11, 11:48 AM
Hi

Evard's normally my opening salvo.
(Beguiler consort starts with legion of Sentinels/Mass Whelm).

Cheers
Paul H

Frosty
2008-10-11, 12:12 PM
So does this mean if you want to do a lot with enchantments and illusions you'd be better off with a Sorcerer over Beguiler as well since they can choose the good enchant/illusion spells and still have blasty when they need it?

Fax Celestis
2008-10-11, 12:19 PM
So does this mean if you want to do a lot with enchantments and illusions you'd be better off with a Sorcerer over Beguiler as well since they can choose the good enchant/illusion spells and still have blasty when they need it?

Beguilers have blasty, you know. It's just atypical blasty.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-11, 01:37 PM
So does this mean if you want to do a lot with enchantments and illusions you'd be better off with a Sorcerer over Beguiler as well since they can choose the good enchant/illusion spells and still have blasty when they need it?No, but that's because there are a lot more good Enchantment/Illusion spells than there are good Evocation spells, and the good ones are very different. The Int-base and skills aren't bad, either.

Look at it this way: A Sorcerer has 1 3rd level spells known when she first gets access to those spells, and 4 at level 11. A Warmage has 10 spells known, but they are all nearly the same spell. Fire shield, Fireball, Flame Arrow, Gust of Wind, Ice Storm, Lightning Bolt, Ring of Blades, Poison, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud(Bold are ones that deal d6s, Italics are ones that only activate when someone is in melee range with you). Every other spell level looks the same. Note how many of the Warmage's spells do the same thing? A Sorcerer set up for blasting will take Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Lightning Bolt, an Orb, Chain Lightning, , Disintigrate, and maybe one more. Combined with Metamagic, that's every way to put d6s onto the target the Warmage has, but the Sorc has other abilities, too.

Also, the Metamagic only takes a Standard action(PHBII sub level that loses familiar, never had a Sorc not do it).

Paul H
2008-10-11, 03:59 PM
"Also, the Metamagic only takes a Standard action(PHBII sub level that loses familiar, never had a Sorc not do it)."

Hi

Ok - wasn't aware of that option (PHBII Pg 60), but still only has limited uses per day, and still takes up higher level spell slot. Not to mention that you only have a limited amount of feats in first place.

Still think that a Warmage or Beguiler are far more powerful, especially with the free feats, Advanced Learning, weapon & armour choices. You still have more spells than ever a Sorceror can know.

Then again.... Sorceror is the only way to Draconic feats.

Cheers
Paul H

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-11, 04:06 PM
Still think that a Warmage or Beguiler are far more powerful, especially with the free feats, Advanced Learning, weapon & armour choices. You still have more spells than ever a Sorceror can know.The question is whether the more spells known are countered by the poorer quality of spells known, especially since the Warmage and Beguiler have a lot of redundancy built-in to their lists. I say it comes up about even in the case of the Beguiler(who gets 2 schools of spells with wide and varying effects) and worse in the case of the Warmage(who gets spells from one school, with primarily one effect from those spells, that force a style that is sub-par in the first place). Advanced Learning helps(especially the Beguiler, who gets the Shadow lines through it), but weapons and armor don't make up for the loss of access to many good spells. After all, when was the last time Greater Mage Armor wasn't good enough protection?

Starbuck_II
2008-10-11, 04:10 PM
A Warmage has 10 spells known, but they are all nearly the same spell. Fire shield, Fireball, Flame Arrow, Gust of Wind, Ice Storm, Lightning Bolt, Ring of Blades, Poison, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud(Bold are ones that deal d6s, Italics are ones that only activate when someone is in melee range with you). Every other spell level looks the same. Note how many of the Warmage's spells do the same thing? A Sorcerer set up for blasting will take Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Lightning Bolt, an Orb, Chain Lightning, , Disintigrate, and maybe one more. Combined with Metamagic, that's every way to put d6s onto the target the Warmage has, but the Sorc has other abilities, too.



Poison, Sleet Storm, Gust of Wind, and Stinking Cloud are totally different.

Since I lack Complete Arcane I can't check Warmages actual spell list to see how different it might be to what you say.

Temp.
2008-10-11, 04:32 PM
Looking at the Warmage list, the spells that are not direct-damage variants:
Level 1: Accuracy, Fist of Stone, Truestrike
Level 2: Continual Flame, Fire Trap, Pyrotechnics
Level 3: Gust of Wind, Poison, Stinking CLoud
Level 4: Black Tentacles, Contagion, Phantasmal Killer, Wall of Fire
Level 5: Cloudkill, Prismatic Ray
Level 6: Acid Fog, Blade Barrier, Circle of Death, Transformation
Level 7: Finger of Death, Prismatic Spray, Waves of Exhaustion
Level 8: Prismatic Wall, Scintillating Pattern
Level 9: Elemental Swarm, Implosion, Prismatic Sphere, Wail of the Banshee, Weird

There's nothing wrong with most of the spells, but few are options I would take with a Sorcerer. There are just so many better choices.

I view Warmage very much the way I do Samurai: It's essentially a reprint of a PHB class that achieves distinction by making character choices (poorly) for the player.

Paul H
2008-10-11, 04:35 PM
Hi

OK - not doing much else at the moment so.........

Warmage Spell List

0: Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead, Light, Ray of Frost

1: Accuracy, Burn Hands, Chill Touch, Fist of Stone, Hail of Stone, Mag Missile, Lssr Orb (Acid, Cold, Elect, Fire, Sound), Shocking Grasp, True Strike

2: Blades of Fire, Cont Flame, Fire Trap, Fireburst, Flaming Sphere, Ice Knife, Melfs Acid Arrow, Pyrotechnics, Scorch Ray, Shatter, Whirling Blade

3: Fire Shield, Fireball, Flame Arrow, Gust of Wind, Ice Storm, Lightning Bolt, Poison, Ring of Blades, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud

4: Blast of Flame, Contagion, Evard's Tentacles, Orb (Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, Force, Sound), Phantasmal Killer, Shout, Wall of Fire

5: Arc of Lightning, Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Mass Fire Shield, Gtr Fireburst, Flame Strike, Prismatic Ray

6: Acid Fog, Blade Barrier, Chain Lightning, Circle of Death, Disintegrate, Fire Seeds, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Tensers Transformation

7: Delayed Blast Fireball, Earthquake, Finger of Death, Fire Storm, Mordenkain Sword, Prismatic Spray, Sunbeam, Waves of Exhaustion

8: Horrid Wilting, Incendiary Cloud, Polar Ray, Prismatic Wall, Scintillating Pattern, Gtr Shout, Sunburst

9: Elemental Swarm, Implosion, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Sphere, Wail of Banshee, Wierd

Obviously got too much time on my hands.

Note: Thats multiple schools of magic. Conjuration is my favourite.

Also Advanced Learning at 3rd, 6th, 11th, 16th level get extra Evocation spells. Plus Sudden Empower, Sudden Enlarge, Sudden Widen & Sudden Maximize feats. And never forget Edge/Extra Edge, plus weapon & armour profs.

Cheers
Paul H
PS Yes- Warmages do get some of their spells earlier than Sorceror/Wizards.

Frosty
2008-10-12, 02:18 AM
Beguilers have blasty, you know. It's just atypical blasty.

What, the WHELM family of spells?

Aquillion
2008-10-12, 02:54 AM
Speaking of warmages... what ways are there for a warmage to add spells to their class list? That seems more exploitable to me, since they're supposed to be balanced by their restrictive class list, and will get access to any spell you can add to it automatically. I'm sure there are some loosely-worded feats or PRCs that let any arcane caster add spells to their class list...

Also, to get back to the OP:

Some Kinda Dragon Circlet Thing, Some Eberron Book: basically head slotted knowstones with no price cut for it, also adds some flimsy extra bonus..The Drake Helm does have one advantage over Knowstones: You can change the spell in one of its shards (it has 1-4) by casting (or using a scroll or more likely, having someone else cast) a new spell into it. The shards are still limited to a maximum level per shard, though. Also, the shards cost a bit more than knowstones (6000 gp for a level 1 shard, 101,000 for a level 9 shard), and you have to buy the helm, and the helm has a limited number of slots for shards (1-4.)

Technically, nothing in the description of the Drake Helm says that the spell has to be on your class list, or even that it has to be arcane. You might even get away with it (as long as you don't go for something really absurd/exploitable), because honestly, you're paying that much, using your head slot, and most of the best spells are already in your class list anyway.

Teron
2008-10-12, 03:40 AM
Speaking of warmages... what ways are there for a warmage to add spells to their class list? That seems more exploitable to me, since they're supposed to be balanced by their restrictive class list, and will get access to any spell you can add to it automatically. I'm sure there are some loosely-worded feats or PRCs that let any arcane caster add spells to their class list...
Cerebrosis is open to any spellcaster.

Fizban
2008-10-12, 03:59 PM
Speaking of warmages... what ways are there for a warmage to add spells to their class list? That seems more exploitable to me, since they're supposed to be balanced by their restrictive class list, and will get access to any spell you can add to it automatically. I'm sure there are some loosely-worded feats or PRCs that let any arcane caster add spells to their class list...
Typical methods are the Arcane Disciple feat, and dipping prestige classes that add domains to your class list. Normally you have to spend spells known to actually use the spells made available by those sources, but since Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necromancer know all the spells on their class list, they learn all of the domain spells at once. This also works with the Rainbow Servant PrC, which adds all Cleric spells, but it's up for debate on weather text trumps table regarding spellcasting: full, or 6/10? Exalted Arcanist PrC, on the other hand, does both: it adds a number of spells to your class list, which the W/B/DN would learn instantly (though what they'd do with the bonus spells known is anyone's guess), and the final level adds all sanctified spells to your known list, which even works for sorcerers (the class the PrC was designed for).


Also, to get back to the OP:
The Drake Helm does have one advantage over Knowstones: You can change the spell in one of its shards (it has 1-4) by casting (or using a scroll or more likely, having someone else cast) a new spell into it. The shards are still limited to a maximum level per shard, though. Also, the shards cost a bit more than knowstones (6000 gp for a level 1 shard, 101,000 for a level 9 shard), and you have to buy the helm, and the helm has a limited number of slots for shards (1-4.)

Technically, nothing in the description of the Drake Helm says that the spell has to be on your class list, or even that it has to be arcane. You might even get away with it (as long as you don't go for something really absurd/exploitable), because honestly, you're paying that much, using your head slot, and most of the best spells are already in your class list anyway.

Huh, I did not know that. The description I read must have been heavily abbreviated, that actually sounds kind of nifty, since it gives you a number of spells that you can change each day if you've got the wizard or the scrolls to cast for you. I'll edit my post, do you know what book it's from?

Aquillion
2008-10-19, 10:41 PM
Huh, I did not know that. The description I read must have been heavily abbreviated, that actually sounds kind of nifty, since it gives you a number of spells that you can change each day if you've got the wizard or the scrolls to cast for you. I'll edit my post, do you know what book it's from?It's from the Eberron Explorer's Handbook (page 151). Changing shards is a move action; you can cast the new spell immediately (unlike Knowstones where you have to wait a day, although obviously with Knowstones you don't have to change between them, and don't have the option to change the spell inside them.)

Oh, oops. Going back to check, you can only change the spell inside a shard once per month, sadly. Which kind of limits that...