Colour-coded Wizards. Where do they come from?

[Eskil]

Black Mages, Blue Mages, Red Wizards, Gandalf the Grey, Saruman of Many Colours, Radagast the Brown, Ridcully the Brown and Ipslore the Red.

This is something I've wondered over for some time. First I see it in The Lord of the Rings, and later in two of the Discworld novels, neither source explaining where it comes from or what it means. So... does anyone here have an answer, partial or otherwise?

[Innis Cabal]

No idea on Discworld

In L.O.T.R its the way the Wizards work. Simple as that

FF...who knows. Its always been that way.

Not really based on any fantasy or myth as far as I know.

[Oregano]

Well Black and White Magic are from folklore/mythology aren't they?

[Innis Cabal]

Black and White magic are held as sets of magic. But its not entierly certain those are from actual sources.

Black Magic was satanism, not just magic in general.

[Oregano]

Yer, buts that's the origin of the terms and why they're used, although Arcane Magic in Final Fantasy seems closer to classic black magic.

[Innis Cabal]

White magic is healing magic. He was asking about the other colors as well

Also, the conventions of color's and such weren't until later. So, not from myth etc.

[Eskil]

No idea on Discworld

In L.O.T.R its the way the Wizards work. Simple as that

FF...who knows. Its always been that way.

Not really based on any fantasy or myth as far as I know.

I don't know... Tolkien did base much of his works on nothern-europian myth. But then again I'm no expert.

As for the Discworld exampels, I'm quite certain that one of them is in referance to a minor Lord of the Rings character.


Well Black and White Magic are from folklore/mythology aren't they?
Those to would be the easy ones, yes. Black magic does Bad things to people and White magic protects people from Bad things. It's when you get to Blue, Red, Green and the like that things get complicated.

[Jophes]

It really varies on which book series you're reading. I think the most notable use of color coded wizards is in the Dragonlance series, with the tests the wizards have to do to get "coded"

[RTGoodman]

...Dragonlance? (EDIT: Ninja'd on that reference. Curse you, Jophes!)


Actually, I don't think there's anything behind Blue, Green, and other colors like that, other than just colors associated with certain things. Even without the traditional terms "Black Magic" and so on, the color black is usually associated with bad, White with good, Red with fire or power or something, and so forth.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Well Black and White Magic are from folklore/mythology aren't they?

They were probably made up by Wicca (or a similar 20th century group of pagan wannabies) and not actually from real folklore.

Real superstitions usually refer to "curses" and "miracles" or similar words rather than black and white magic.

Wikipedia claims that Necromancy was sometimes misswriten as "negromancy" and mistranslated as "black magic" (as opposed to divination involving dead people).

The coloured wizards from Tolkien reflect their personalities and roles rather than what kind of spells they cast.

[DomaDoma]

As "colour-coded wizards" scans to Eleanor Rigby, I demand that the word "all" be inserted into your subject line.

In the case of color-coding by discipline, I'm guessing it's for the snazzy uniforms. (Help me out, here - did the Blue Mages in Final Fantasy start out with snazzy uniforms?) In the case of color-coding by individual wizard, I suspect Tolkien.

[Jophes]

hehe like the weird frog thing in FF9?

[Oregano]

I think the Black Mages have always had those snazzy hats and coats/robes.

White Mages aren't soo cool but Red Mages have pimp suits.

[Eskil]

As "colour-coded wizards" scans to Eleanor Rigby, I demand that the word "all" be inserted into your subject line.
...I fail to comprehend.

No, wait! Beatles, got it.

In the case of color-coding by discipline, I'm guessing it's for the snazzy uniforms. (Help me out, here - did the Blue Mages in Final Fantasy start out with snazzy uniforms?) In the case of color-coding by individual wizard, I suspect Tolkien.

The coloured wizards from Tolkien reflect their personalities and roles rather than what kind of spells they cast.
Mostly, I am curious where Tolkien got it from, or if was an invetion on his part.


hehe like the weird frog thing in FF9?

I think the Black Mages have always had those snazzy hats and coats/robes.

White Mages aren't soo cool but Red Mages have pimp suits.
In retrospect, adding the Final Fantasy classes to the exampels may have been a mistake..

[Innis Cabal]

The term "Black" Magic was used in many tribes in india and in chistian lit. but they are not exclusive, and a very very wide set of spells and incatations fell under it. Even healing spells.

The Malleus Maleficarum is a -very- likely source for Black magic being "evil"

[Manga Shoggoth]

Beyond Tolkien, it is quite possible that the colour coding comes from old computer games. In the old days graphics were quite limited, and about the only way of differentiating between two creatures of simillar type was to change the colour.

Hence you might face green slimes, then red slimes, then black slimes and so on.

(And who can forget Gauntlet II: "Green Wizard needs food badly...")

[RebelRogue]

Beyond Tolkien, it is quite possible that the colour coding comes from old computer games. In the old days graphics were quite limited, and about the only way of differentiating between two creatures of simillar type was to change the colour.

Hence you might face green slimes, then red slimes, then black slimes and so on.

(And who can forget Gauntlet II: "Green Wizard needs food badly...")
Also, color coded ninjas always takes me back to my old Commodore gaming days :smallbiggrin:

Regarding FF9: yeah, Quina was a weird character. Other blue mages have been distinctively less weird. Kimahri from FFX was very cool IMO. Quistis in FFVIII... In FF7 the concept was tied to a Materia, so it was tied to no specific person. Now that I think of it, I can't remember which of the games had the first Blue Mage!

[SolkaTruesilver]

If you want the most interesting application of color-coded wizards (in my opinion), look at Warhammer Fantasy Role Playing game. All magic is part of one of the 8 winds, and each one has its own color, thematic and emotions linked to it.

White --> Light --> Serenity, Wisdom
Green --> Life/Plants/Nature --> Hippy, Season-influenced
Brown --> Beasts --> Aggressivity, Bestiality (not the sexual reference.. wait, I'm not sure.)
Red --> Fire --> Passion, Brazeness
Gold --> Metal --> Ingeniousity, Intellectualism
Blue --> Heaven --> Prophetic view of the world, astrology, daydreamers
Grey --> Shadows --> Trickery, Secrets, Misleader
Amethyst --> Death --> Seriousness, Acceptance of death, Retribution against those who violate the natural order of life and death

There is a long description of all the orders and the magical effects in the appropriate books. There is also corrupted magics, which is an unnatural mix of the winds of magic (Daemon Lores, Necromancy)

[Somebloke]

I always thought that Zoroastrianism, with it's focus on a good god of light/bad god of shadow, was a major influence in myths in the ancient world.

[Oregano]

Also, color coded ninjas always takes me back to my old Commodore gaming days :smallbiggrin:

Regarding FF9: yeah, Quina was a weird character. Other blue mages have been distinctively less weird. Kimahri from FFX was very cool IMO. Quistis in FFVIII... In FF7 the concept was tied to a Materia, so it was tied to no specific person. Now that I think of it, I can't remember which of the games had the first Blue Mage!

Blue Mages were introduced in FFV, I think it's just becaause they thought they'd continue the colour theme because they already had Black, White and Red.

[Thanatos 51-50]

It really varies on which book series you're reading. I think the most notable use of color coded wizards is in the Dragonlance series, with the tests the wizards have to do to get "coded"

You see, I was under the impression that their robes just reflected their alignment, where white was Good, red was Neutral, and black was Evil.

Nothing to do with their magic at all.

[RTGoodman]

Well, at least in the 3.x Dragonlance Setting, robe color, spell specialization, and alignment were all connected. I believe, at least as far as the Wizard of High Sorcery PrC (which is, admittedly, not required), Black Robes have to specialize in Necromancy or Enchantment, Red Robes in Evocation or... Transmutation(?), and stuff like that. It's not a definite thing, but Robe Color and spell selection are somewhat related.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I believe the source on wizard color titles, as in "<Name> the <Color>" is in fact J.R.R. Tolkien, although it's possible a 20th century pulp novelist used it before him. This was refined by later fantasy authors as a means of uniforming magic users by their specialty.

"Black magic" was used as a term for diabolical powers for centuries before that, however, that was just a descriptive term for magic, not the uniform color of the people using it.

[valadil]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the term black magic was used in the sword and the stone. Not sure if it was in the original or just introduced in the disney version though. It wouldn't surprise me if Tolkien expounded on the idea of describing magic by color, but it also wouldn't surprise me if someone else did it first. I'm pretty sure we all agree that color magic is prevalent after Tolkien though.

[Mr. Scaly]

I always liked the colour coding of wizards in Magic: the Gathering, because no side is fully good or evil.

[Mx.Silver]

I always liked the colour coding of wizards in Magic: the Gathering, because no side is fully good or evil.

Well, Green, Red and Blue are fairly neutral I'll grant. White and Black? Not so much. In fact with them it's about 90-10 split towards one end or the other of the good/evil divide.

[Mr. Scaly]

Well, Green, Red and Blue are fairly neutral I'll grant. White and Black? Not so much. In fact with them it's about 90-10 split towards one end or the other of the good/evil divide.

Not exactly. White is the colour of healing, law, and community. On the other hand it's also that of absolutism and fanaticism. Black is the colour of ambition and power, but also greed, death and corruption.

[Granas3]

I think that Red Mage comes from the fact that final fantasy 1 only has 2 pallettes for the character battlers: Black mage, thief and monk are Blue and Brown, White mage, fighter and Red mage are Red and White. Since there was no way of making a white and black magic user be colored grey, they chose a pallete which would give them distinctive white(or Silver/grey) hair. Also, with only 2 pallettes, they save on memory, which was a considerable limiting factor in a game with so much text and battle data. As for the Lotr wizards, they seem to be based on their personalties; Saruman was the Leader, and as theyu were sent by the Valar, he would be the one closest to them. As White is the traditonal christian color for purity and divinity, he was White. When he sided with Sauron, and his mind became unstable, he became Saruman of many colors. As next senior, Gandalf is "promoted" to White at first oppurtunity.

And Ridcully is most likely a parody of the middle earth wizard. Radagast is a nature wizard, like a dnd druid, whilst ridcully is famed for hunting animals. The two move into an apartment, and hilarity ensues.

[KillianHawkeye]

Blue Mages were introduced in FFV, I think it's just becaause they thought they'd continue the colour theme because they already had Black, White and Red.

Which is interesting, considering the number of non-colored Magic User classes that existed in that game (and before, and since). For example, why doesn't Time Mage have a color associated with it?

[Oregano]

I don't know, that strikes me as weird, maybe because it's hard to apply a colour to time? Blue Mage can have no other reason except they applied a colour to another type of magic because Time magic is either Black or White magic anyway.

[chronoplasm]

I haven't played it, but I understand that the newest FF game has a type of magic called "Dark Magic" or something. How is that any different from Black Magic?
If they are going to do a theme, they need to stick with it. My inner autistic child demands symmetryyyy! :smallfurious:

[Destichado]

White and black magic were quite traditional ideas, black being the older term by several centuries, but both being in common use by the 17th century.

White magic was used to describe the talents and abilities of diviners, wise women, "cunning men," faith-healers and others whose works were useful, widely accepted and not subject to persecution by the populace or the church. In the historical context of the term, it's important to note that all these folk who practiced white magic considered themselves quite christian, and that their practices were not contrary to the christian faith. To summarize something complex, that's because these were all "sympathetic" magics that employed the innate properties of natural (ie: divinely made) items to work to a human purpose.

Black magics -again, to oversimplify- covered most everything else. Curses, spells to debilitate, control or gain unnatural knowledge, pacts with the devil or other dark creatures in exchange for strange powers, etc., etc. This, of course, *was* persecuted by the populace and the church.

Historical references to color-coded wizards *do* exist, but they didn't mean what we take them to mean now. I know of a supposed "red wizard" in the 16th century, but that referred to his habit of wearing a red coat and hat.

Tolkein, I think, took his cue from that; naming his wizards after their habits of dress, and then giving them attributes that suited their dress: a man who wears brown being at home in the forest, one who wears gray being a traveler... Then his readers come along and associate the attributes with the color, and by extension, whole "schools of magic" as well.

[factotum]

Tolkein, I think, took his cue from that; naming his wizards after their habits of dress, and then giving them attributes that suited their dress: a man who wears brown being at home in the forest, one who wears gray being a traveler... Then his readers come along and associate the attributes with the color, and by extension, whole "schools of magic" as well.

Technically, wouldn't it be the other way around? Green or brown are sensible colours for a forest dweller to wear, a traveller's clothes would probably be grey so as to not show the dust of the road so much, etc...in other words, he quite possibly chose their vocations THEN picked a colour for them.

[SmartAlec]

Tolkien's works also give us Pallando the Blue and Alatar the Blue, the fourth and fifth Wizards who arrived upon Middle-Earth with Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast, and who went into the East to try to free the Easterlings and Southrons from Sauron's dominion, and were never seen again. I think they're in the History of Middle Earth books somewhere.

[Jorkens]

Tolkein's a very nonstandard example, though, in that he doesn't really introduce 'flavours of wizard' so much as he gives the three wizards who actually appear in LotR a colour that has some symbolic relevance to them, but the colour is associated with the character more than with a 'school of magic' or a 'style of wizardry'.

There must be a more relevant source for zoning of wizardry in general?

[Destichado]

Technically, wouldn't it be the other way around? Green or brown are sensible colours for a forest dweller to wear, a traveller's clothes would probably be grey so as to not show the dust of the road so much, etc...in other words, he quite possibly chose their vocations THEN picked a colour for them.

Nope, don't think so. I'm fairly certain he wanted a white, gray, brown, blue, etc., and then made their briefly described personalities and habits to fit.


Tolkein's a very nonstandard example, though, in that he doesn't really introduce 'flavours of wizard' so much as he gives the three wizards who actually appear in LotR a colour that has some symbolic relevance to them, but the colour is associated with the character more than with a 'school of magic' or a 'style of wizardry'.

There must be a more relevant source for zoning of wizardry in general?

Not really, not until D&D. We're dealing with ancient names -centuries old- warped to mean something entirely new. D&D turned magic from a very vague and indistinct thing into something with a big enough library of common spells that it could support "schools" other than simple white and black. Enter Dragonlance, then Enter Final Fantasy. That's pretty much it.

[Oregano]

Historical references to color-coded wizards *do* exist, but they didn't mean what we take them to mean now. I know of a supposed "red wizard" in the 16th century, but that referred to his habit of wearing a red coat and hat.


That's probably wear Final Fantasy got it from, have you seen the snazzy hat?

On a tangentally(is that even a real word?) related note I think it's foolish to think that everything in modern fantasy came from Tolkien who took it from mythology and folklore because he took other 20th century fantasy writers ideas and used them. He just popularised them.

[Mx.Silver]

Not exactly. White is the colour of healing, law, and community. On the other hand it's also that of absolutism and fanaticism. Black is the colour of ambition and power, but also greed, death and corruption.

Yeah, but when you read the flavour text (and indeed names and artwork) for a lot of the spells it's kind of hard not to notice a trend towards a particular side of the good-evil divide.

[Mr. Scaly]

Yeah, but when you read the flavour text (and indeed names and artwork) for a lot of the spells it's kind of hard not to notice a trend towards a particular side of the good-evil divide.

There are serious exceptions though. Especially in the books where White cards are often villains. Actually Blue tends to be the villain, but White doesn't cover itself with glory like it used to.

[KillianHawkeye]

tangentally(is that even a real word?)

It's spelled "tangentially."

And I guess Time Magic would be gray, if I had to choose a color for it. I believe there were gray spells in FF6, including most of the Time spells (except Demi, IIRC)? I hope I'm remembering that right. :smallconfused:

[tyckspoon]

I haven't played it, but I understand that the newest FF game has a type of magic called "Dark Magic" or something. How is that any different from Black Magic?
If they are going to do a theme, they need to stick with it. My inner autistic child demands symmetryyyy! :smallfurious:

Generally, 'Black' Magic in Final Fantasy means elemental casters. They throw fire, ice, and lightning, and then some other random pseudo-elements depending on the game; water, earth, air, and poison have all been under the control of the Black Mage at various points. And then their highest spells tend to be big bursts of raw magic power, like Flare and Ultima. From a D&D perspective, they use mostly Evocation.

"Dark" Magic, as used mostly by Dark Knights, is based more on manipulating life-energies. It contains abilities like Darkside/Dark Blade, where the user burns HP to inflict damage, as well as draining spells (work like Vampiric Touch) and, depending on the game, some of the array of status effects. D&D would recognize most of these as Necromancy spells. FF's 'Dark' and 'Black' are recognizably distinct varieties of magic, but usually only in the Job System games where there are enough different jobs to split them out- in games where characters are pre-classed, the Dark spells tend to get folded into a Black Mage character.

[Revlid]

Flanderisation of Tolkein's colour-coded wizards.

[Mr. Scaly]

I always figured that colour was a ranking system for Tolkien's wizards.

[Gaming-Poet]

In Tolkien's other works, Gandalf is specified as looking uniquely old and gray-bearded for an Istari. His gray beard is specified as a noteworthy physical trait -- but as nothing more.

Gandalf in his wanderings is similar to Odin, who was known as the Grey Wanderer because of the color of his cloak.

I think the color coding in Tolkien signifies little more than description.

[Rei_Jin]

I believe that the colour coding in fantasy comes from the fact that different religions dressed their priests in different colours so that they were easily told apart from one another when merchants, nobles, and diplomats travelled to different countries, or where you had a mono-theistic town.

This is back in the BC era, you see the evolution of it today in the different robes that the religious orders wear today. Not as vastly different in terms of colouring now as they were then, but its a lot easier to wear white now that no-one is covered in blood.