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Rogue 7
2008-10-09, 05:46 PM
So I had my first session as a DM, and one of my players is playing a rogue. He's put a bunch of ranks in bluff. In combat, he's apparently able to feint and then attack, gaining his sneak attack damage. Now, this doesn't particularly seem kosher to me, especially, as a player character, he's got plenty of ranks in it, I tend not to favor villains with a high wisdom score (though that'll change as we get more into it- it's a homebrew campaign where the major classes all need good wisdom), so he can essentially get sneak attack every round he wants. That, from what I can tell, is not how rogues work- they're supposed to skulk around the battlefield and attack when the opportunity presents itself.

Reading the rules, it seems that he needs the feat Improved feint to be able to do this (which he does not have). Saying that, I think that instead of a sense motive check, an opposed roll using the bluffee's BAB as a bonus would be far more appropriate. I highly doubt that bluffing skill and/or acting ability is key in selling a feint of a weapon in combat.

Thoughts?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-10-09, 05:51 PM
Feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint) from the SRD:

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your targetís Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a -4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, itís impossible.

Emphasis added.

Note that Improved Feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFeint) just allows you to feint as a Move rather than a Standard action.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-09, 05:53 PM
So I had my first session as a DM, and one of my players is playing a rogue. He's put a bunch of ranks in bluff. In combat, he's apparently able to feint and then attack, gaining his sneak attack damage. Now, this doesn't particularly seem kosher to me, especially, as a player character, he's got plenty of ranks in it, I tend not to favor villains with a high wisdom score (though that'll change as we get more into it- it's a homebrew campaign where the major classes all need good wisdom), so he can essentially get sneak attack every round he wants. That, from what I can tell, is not how rogues work- they're supposed to skulk around the battlefield and attack when the opportunity presents itself.

Reading the rules, it seems that he needs the feat Improved feint to be able to do this (which he does not have). Saying that, I think that instead of a sense motive check, an opposed roll using the bluffee's BAB as a bonus would be far more appropriate. I highly doubt that bluffing skill and/or acting ability is key in selling a feint of a weapon in combat.

Thoughts?

Hmm, are you saying he is trying to fient as a free action?
No, he can't do that.

He can do it as a standard action without Improved Fient, but a move action with the feat.

And feint is like faking moving: going left when you are really meaning to go right: football players use it all the time to get past opponents and get a touchdown.

Hal
2008-10-09, 05:53 PM
So, here's how that works: Normally, feinting is a standard action. If he has improved feint, it's a move action. Also, according to the SRD, when you feint in combat, you add the BAB to the Sense Motive check.

This may seem overpowered at first, but as the game progresses it's not as good an idea. It means that the rogue has to stand toe-to-toe with his opponent, and that is a losing equation for rogues as opponents become more powerful.

All in all, don't punish your player because he chose something to be good at. If you take that away from him, he's going to feel like his character has been neutered.

Edit: So many ninjas. Ugh.

Douglas
2008-10-09, 05:59 PM
To join the crowd, there are several problems with this. First, the defender gets his BAB as an extra bonus to his sense motive check, making it much harder to guarantee success on the feint. Second, without Improved Feint he can't attack in the same round as the feint - feinting takes his standard action. Even with a success, he only gets sneak attack from it for his first attack in the next round. Third, even if he takes Improved Feint it would still take a move action, which prevents making a full attack that round.

nargbop
2008-10-09, 07:12 PM
Rogue 7, you can call him on that. PHB 155 says that a character without Improved Feint takes a standard action to feint. So it takes two rounds for an ordinary PC to hit a bad guy. If he takes Improved Feint, he can stay in the same square and feint and hit an enemy in the same round.

That being said, don't worry too much about making bad DM decisions in your first campaign, and don't get too attached to your story. I got attached to my NPCs too in my campaigns; bad idea, leads to bad relations with your players if you feel you have to railroad to tell important things. Instead, make it the PC's story; you're just enabling it to happen.

Rogue 7
2008-10-09, 09:03 PM
Seems my logic as to the change I was going to make was spot-on.(and in the rules to boot.) Part of the problem is that the guy is a bit obnoxious and seems to be trying to take a bit more command of the game than I'd really rather he have (it doesn't hurt that he seems to be taking this quite a bit more seriously than the other players- they spent the first half-hour or so thinking up creative uses for their elemental powers with alcohol. T'was hilarious.) I'll see what happens.

∆therSeraph
2008-10-09, 10:08 PM
Just to make an addition, the invisible blade prestige class (from Complete Warrior) allows feinting as a free action, as long as he's wielding only 1+ dagger, katar or kukri in any comination. I think it includes other noncore dagger-like weaponry...

Person_Man
2008-10-10, 10:25 AM
Ways to qualify for Sneak Attack:

Ways to qualify for Sneak Attack include:

1) Win Initiative: A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act.

2) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures.

3) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap.

4) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

5) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII), reach weapon, armor spikes or spiked gauntlets.

6) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

7) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

8) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

9) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

10) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

11) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

12) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

13) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

14) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

15) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members.

16) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable.

17) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.

18) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It also doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit. WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

And here's a list of Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915).

You'll notice that its actually quite easy for someone to qualify for Sneak Attack. And that's the way it should be. Sneak Attack damage scales slower then almost every other form of damage in the game. Rogues should have an easy time qualifying for it.