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theMycon
2008-10-09, 08:32 PM
There is almost no reason to play a Sorcerer before fifth level.

Compared to the bard, they are equal or worse in nearly every way.

They have the same number of spells known, same number castable, from a spell list I consider slightly inferior. (Reasoning- it's based more on damage dealing, but the other good spells are a level higher.)

They're proficient with light armor and ignore its spell failure chance- which you could get for two feats (plus making any armor mithral) with a sorcerer. It has 4 more skill points per level, and a wider skill list, which I believe completely encompasses the sorc list. They get more hit points, a higher BaB, and better saves.

And their abilities more or less balance the "bloodline" abilities until you hit 5 (except for the Abberant's "extra reach with a touch attack", which I admit sounds phenomenal for a 3rd level ability)

They also have some abilities that're kinda useless (Several martial weapon proficiencies- but the human gets one free. And if you're a magic user, you don't need more than one. If you even need the one.)

I can only see two advantages:

First, the slight one- the shield spell instead of shield proficiency. It's 1 min/level, meaning it should last the whole of combat. There is no penalty to touch attacks, whereas you'd probably drop the shield to make them if you had a physical one. If you see the fight coming (pretty common), the casting time doesn't matter. And it provides higher AC.

Then, the big one- Bards don't get color spray. This is a "save or lose" first level area affect spell. It should knock everything without a decent will save out of the picture.

JaxGaret
2008-10-09, 11:28 PM
I think you missed the fact that the Sorcerer has far more spell slots per day than the Bard.

EvilElitest
2008-10-09, 11:37 PM
Wasn't that class kinda useless in 3E as well?
from
EE

holywhippet
2008-10-09, 11:47 PM
Wasn't that class kinda useless in 3E as well?
from
EE

Not really. The wizard is arguably better since they can learn any arcane spell they can get their hands on (assuming it's not blocked from them for some reason). However the sorcerer gets more spells per day, with careful spell picks they can be very devastating. Sometimes being able to spam one spell repeatedly is more useful than being able to cast a variety.

Kyeudo
2008-10-09, 11:51 PM
Then there are the work arounds. Planar Binding, Polymorph, Gate, and Wish can imitate a whole variety of spells if you think hard enough.

EvilElitest
2008-10-09, 11:51 PM
In theory your right, but i was under the impression that they really got the short end of the stick in terms of actual balence. I don't know personally, i never played sorcerers
from
EE

Eldariel
2008-10-09, 11:56 PM
Yes, they're weaker than Wizards, but that's not saying much. They're not weak enough to suck and they make great Spellwarp Snipers (thanks to the Sorcerer-only spells like Wings of Flurry). But yea, the main problems Sorcerer has vs. a Wizard are:
-One level slower progression (begs the question WHAT THE ****?!)
-No class features beyond level 1, and no level 1 bonus feat (this likewise begs the question WTF?!)
-Very limited spell selection (although, as said, this can be gotten around), forcing them to only focus on one thing and leave their defenses and utility secondary.
-Charisma-focus (mechanically weakest skill in the game, right next to Str) without many Charisma-based skills on the skill list and a low number of skillpoints in general for crossclassing or anything such. Wizards get Int-focus (much better - bonus skillpoints are huge), basically all Int-skills except for Disable Device and Search on their class list and specifically thanks to their Int-focus, a relatively large number of skillpoints per level naturally.

They also have some random RAW-issues, like being unable to learn spells over some PrCs (e.g. Eldritch Knight) and such, which would make them suck totally (basically meaning they can't take those PrCs even though they qualify), but those are just slight oversights that are easy enough to ignore.

BobVosh
2008-10-10, 12:14 AM
Having played a bard in pathfinder 1+ I have to say it feels like a sorcerer with a few other abilities. That said I would rather the sorcerer for the extra spells per day. When I tried to use my pig sticker, it didn't stick much.

theMycon
2008-10-10, 04:13 PM
I think you missed the fact that the Sorcerer has far more spell slots per day than the Bard.


They have the same number of spells known, same number castable, from a spell list I consider slightly inferior. by "same number castable" I meant "per day". My apologies, I thought that was the only possible meaning in context.

JaxGaret
2008-10-10, 04:34 PM
by "same number castable" I meant "per day". My apologies, I thought that was the only possible meaning in context.

It was the only possible meaning in that context, and you are wrong. Sorcerers get far more "castable" per day than Bards.

Oslecamo
2008-10-10, 04:58 PM
Yes, they're weaker than Wizards, but that's not saying much. They're not weak enough to suck and they make great Spellwarp Snipers (thanks to the Sorcerer-only spells like Wings of Flurry). But yea, the main problems Sorcerer has vs. a Wizard are:
-One level slower progression (begs the question WHAT THE ****?!)

I admit this hurts a lot, but it's somewhat balanced for the sorceror's spontaneous casting. The wizard can learn spells, but it's quite expensive, specially at low levels, and the sorceror can also get extra known spells with some tricks. Plus, you don't really need that many arcane spells to be able to answer pretty much any problem.



-No class features beyond level 1, and no level 1 bonus feat (this likewise begs the question WTF?!)

Who cares? You'll be multiclassing into 3 or 4 prc probably. You get more spells per day than the wizard at lv 1 anyway. Well, and probably for the rest of the game.



-Very limited spell selection (although, as said, this can be gotten around), forcing them to only focus on one thing and leave their defenses and utility secondary.

False, see Solo's stupendous sorceror guide to see how you can do much with few.



-Charisma-focus (mechanically weakest skill in the game, right next to Str) without many Charisma-based skills on the skill list and a low number of skillpoints in general for crossclassing or anything such. Wizards get Int-focus (much better - bonus skillpoints are huge), basically all Int-skills except for Disable Device and Search on their class list and specifically thanks to their Int-focus, a relatively large number of skillpoints per level naturally.


Charisma is better than you give credit for. Planar biding and charms will reward you for having high charisma. Leadership is probably the strongest feat of the game. Several feats will allow you to transform that charisma in nice bonuses, like using it for will defense.

Skill points are good, but spells and items can easily cover up for them. The cleric is feared, and he also gets only a measly 2 skill points per level.

Eldariel
2008-10-10, 10:09 PM
False, see Solo's stupendous sorceror guide to see how you can do much with few.

When I see it I see how much I'm giving up, not how much I can do. It's good advice, but it still shows that you have to focus to do anything well.


Charisma is better than you give credit for. Planar biding and charms will reward you for having high charisma. Leadership is probably the strongest feat of the game. Several feats will allow you to transform that charisma in nice bonuses, like using it for will defense.

Yes, yes, Leadership is great and also broken and should never be allowed anywhere at any time. And when Leadership is not allowed, Charisma goes back to sucking (and coincidentially, everyone gets high Cha when Leadership is allowed). Planar Bindings? You've got spells to win the opposed checks in those. Charms? Yea, helps there. If you've got the room to pick Charms up. Seriously, your level 2 already has Alter Self, Glitterdust, Web and so on, it's tough to fit Charm Person in there. The higher the levels, the less spells known. And just because Charisma helps in maybe 3 things doesn't make it worth more than toilet paper.


Skill points are good, but spells and items can easily cover up for them. The cleric is feared, and he also gets only a measly 2 skill points per level.

Yes, but all other things being equal, getting more of them > getting less of them. Also, being able to max out all Knowledges makes you pretty damn powerful. You effectively know every opponent's weakness, every problem's answer. Cleric is feared 'cause it has 3 extremely potent power sources (spells, domains, turning) and can use them to reach Wizard-like potency with added melee supremacy.