On "rape"

[Tirian]

A few times in the past week, I've noticed posters using the word "rape" as an allusion to devastation or destruction, although not by physical or sexual means. I'm not at all wild about such inflammatory imagery, but I can't quite point to chapter and verse of the Rules of Posting that ban it. I have a sense that one may not use the word "g*y" to mean unorthodox (or, actually, maybe one can't use it at all...), but perhaps this isn't quite the same thing.

Thoughts?

[Graymayre]

If we can't use it, then that would be totally g*y.

[potatocubed]

I'm a bit iffy about the casual use of the word 'rape' as well, especially in the form of 'mindrape'. Now, this is a pretty accurate description of what the magic in question does, but it's being used more and more without any context - which might make the place seem a little bit unfriendly to new users when they head over to FB and see it being thrown around as a casual insult.

Or maybe I'm wrong. It's not like I am a new user. =/

[Faithdreamer]

Casually using either word is unenlightened, I remind myself that people don't get it, and do my thing. Since most people lack my unique experiences, I could offer my opinion. Not that I'm trying to be rude..

Does 'Quit It', get through? :smallconfused:

There isn't very much else I'm willing to do or say right now. :smallsmile:

[Roderick_BR]

If we can't use it, then that would be totally g*y.
What, it would be a happy thing?

[Jalor]

I don't really see too much of an issue with "mindrape", seeing as how it's a spell in the BoVD.

Just "rape", on the other hand, is probably a moddable offense.

[Demented]

There's always 'rapine'.

'Rapined', however, is substantially less awesome. It sounds like something you might do to correct a misaligned steeple. "We rapined the tower so it wouldn't fall on anyone." This is especially so if you pronounce it wrong. "And so I rapined down the side of the cliff..." "Do you mean rapelled?"

[Jimp]

rape
19 dictionary results for: rape
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
rape1 /reɪp/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[reyp] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, raped, rap·ing.
–noun
1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
3. statutory rape.
4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
–verb (used with object)
6. to force to have sexual intercourse.
7. to plunder (a place); despoil.
8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.
–verb (used without object)
9. to commit rape.


The bolded definitions would be perfectly fine, the unbolded definitions are a sensitive issue. However, it seems that most gamers use the word rape in the context of the bolded definitions, which is perfectly viable.

[Charity]

I am not a fan of banning words, especially when there are entirely appropriate uses within the context of a normal conversation.

I do however understand folks uncomfortableness with this emotive word's almost gleeful usage by some.

Soooo... do I wish folk would be more thoughtful and careful in their language? Yes.
Do I think this use of the word should be penalised... No not really, some freedoms are uncomfortable but you'll miss them when they're gone.

[TRM]

I don't really see too much of an issue with "mindrape", seeing as how it's a spell in the BoVD.

Just "rape", on the other hand, is probably a moddable offense.
I disagree. Rape also means "Plundering," or similar, and is perfectly acceptable.
But even if they're using it to mean statutory rape I don't see how it could be an offense. Infractions aren't issued for mentioning sex in general, and if the posters aren't describing it graphically or condoning violently forcing yourself on someone sexually (or "raping") it doesn't seem like a problem to me.

edit: I agree with Charity.

[AKA_Bait]

I agree with Charity and others. The word, although sometimes uncomfortably used, has many legitimate uses in perfectly acceptable contexts. Not only is it part of a spell in the BovD but it also is a topic that comes up in other places. For example, the exclusion of half-orc's from the 4e PBH1 was thought in large part to be a decision on the part of WotC not to have an entire race essentially based upon rape.

The uses of the word that are uncomfortable or threatening to other posters are, by my lights, probably infractable based on the context in which they are being thrown around. The word itself neededn't be banned.

[Faithdreamer]

Mindrape is a lot worse than a spell in D&D. You'll know it when you feel it. :smallannoyed:

We were talking about banning words..? Don't do that, my only thought was people should be more considerate and tasteful. For some reason I just thought about internet games and console games.

[Meat Shield]

I'll join the others around here saying 'No" to censorship of certain words like rape. As long as it is used in the proper context and maturely, then no problem.

Besides, sometimes it is exactly the right term - look up the 'Rape of Nanking' sometime.

[AKA_Bait]

We were talking about banning words..? Don't do that, my only thought was people should be more considerate and tasteful. For some reason I just thought about internet games and console games.

From some of the comments and the OP's mention of the word ban I had thought that we were. I wholeheartedly agree that posters should be more tasteful and considerate not only in their use of that word but also in their use of other words with similar emotional charge.

[Talya]

what do you know...seeing the title, I knew immediately what this thread was about, and was prepared to come in with a vocal and direct "NO! Rape should not be used this way! It's worse than some of the words they have actually filtered!"

After reading the posts here, I have completely changed my mind. The word shouldn't be censored.

[Renegade Paladin]

Because as we all know, banning certain words changes the way people actually think, and even if it didn't, perception matters more than reality.

Oh wait. :smallsigh:

[Quincunx]

Because as we all know, banning certain words changes the way people actually think, and even if it didn't, perception matters more than reality.

Oh wait. :smallsigh:

. . .the choice of synonym does influence the way people think. Irritating, isn't it?

It's when your substitute word is not a synonym that listeners start questioning your intelligence (see also: "spoony bard!").

[Hoplite]

When thoughts can corrupt words, words can corrupt thought.

[Renegade Paladin]

And if someone was actually of a mind to rape somebody, preventing the use of the word won't stop him. And if he's not, then simple exposure to the term won't change that. It accomplishes no practical effect.

[ArlEammon]

As a recipient of rape, I have mixed feelings. In Ever Dream, practically the biggest plot points of the game were the violation of the goddesses of Lust and the Shrine goddess. So, if you censored the word, it might ruin some role play experience, which is what I come here for. On the other hand, all I hear is the word "rape" rape rape rape.

[First Speaker]

I would probably say that this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93415) is the thread that sparked off the current debate.

<wax rhetorical>

While banning words is probably wrong (I am interested as to the word filter that bans this (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/****), in that case), can I ask what possible value the use of the word 'rape' adds to 'viruses have raped my computer'? Isn't it a tad gratuitous and offensive?

I mean, if I start going about talking about 'the holocaust that was inflicted during the D&D game on Sunday', then sure, I could be referring to 'a sacrifice consumed by fire', would people find that totally acceptable, and come rushing to my defence when I was called up on it? No, of course not, because we know that the word is so heavily laden down with connotations of the Shoah, one of the worst genocides in history. And, anticipating people saying 'But First Speaker! That surely isn't a justifiable comparison!', then consider the fact that things closer to home often loom larger in people's minds. The phrases 'mindrape', 'rape of Nanking' - well, they're genuine phrases. But to toss about the word 'rape' as if it were a minor annoyance; well, it belittles it, and makes the person wantonly use it look much worse.

</wax rhetorical>

[Nerd-o-rama]

I will say it's an unfortunate neologism, but let me put it to you this way: are we also going to ban the word "murder"? Or to go a bit further to make sure we're not underestimating the problem, how about "genocide"? Those are both terrible, terrible things that are, for some reason, used as casual hyperbole nowadays.

[First Speaker]

Ban? Don't need to ban. Just agree that people who (not that anyone here does) toss the word 'rape' around as if it were a synonym to 'mildly aggravate' are bad people and should feel bad.

[TRM]

Censorship is a slippery slope. If we started banning all the words that people find offensive, when do we stop? In my opinion it's far better, if more difficult, to enforce correct and respectful usage of words such as rape than to flat out ban them. There are already rules in place to discourage flaming, so I think we should keep using them; because we have live moderators, you can report a post that you think used rape (or any word) in an offensive and innapropriate context and have the moderators look at it, banning the word completely just limits posters' options.

And yeah, the general tone of the thread is of agreement with me—I just wanted to make my opinion slightly clearer.

edit:

Ban? Don't need to ban. Just agree that people who (not that anyone here does) toss the word 'rape' around as if it were a synonym to 'mildly aggravate' are bad people and should feel bad.
No. This is not the case at all, and there's absolutely no reason to alienate these people by using absolute terms such as "bad." What we really need to agree on is that we need to be intelligent and respectful in our use of emotionally charged terms such as "rape."

[AKA_Bait]

Ban? Don't need to ban. Just agree that people who (not that anyone here does) toss the word 'rape' around as if it were a synonym to 'mildly aggravate' are bad people and should feel bad.

I wouldn't go so far as to say casual hyperobilc use of the word makes the speaker a bad person. I'd agree that some words, like rape and holocaust, are frequently in bad taste when used that way.

[First Speaker]

Censorship is a slippery slope. If we started banning all the words that people find offensive, when do we stop? In my opinion it's far better, if more difficult, to enforce correct and respectful usage of words such as rape than to flat out ban them. There are already rules in place to discourage flaming, so I think we should keep using them; because we have live moderators, you can report a post that you think used rape (or any word) in an offensive and innapropriate context and have the moderators look at it, banning the word completely just limits posters' options.

And yeah, the general tone of the thread is of agreement with me—I just wanted to make my opinion slightly clearer.

For goodness' sake, 1984 is not what we're advocating. Instead, perhaps people should be reminded that we shouldn't see posts like these:


Wow, you just got mindraped. Do you feel sullied and unusual?

and Colin's oh-so-delightful mindrape meme as a good and wholesome thing.


I wouldn't go so far as to say casual hyperobilc use of the word makes the speaker a bad person. I'd agree that some words, like rape and holocaust, are frequently in bad taste when used that way.

Maybe not a bad person in general, but, to borrow a little Tomist Natural Law, it makes them a bad person with respect to that issue.

[TRM]

and Colin's oh-so-delightful mindrape meme as a good and wholesome thing.

Maybe not a bad person in general, but, to borrow a little Tomist Natural Law, it makes them a bad person with respect to that issue.
We don't disagree that much. I am also of the opinion that people should think before they toss around rape. But what I don't agree with you about is that people that talk about mindraping are bad, and using rape in conversation makes you a bad person.

edit: Mini-rant.

For goodness' sake, 1984 is not what we're advocating.
I never accused you of advocating 1984. There is a vast difference between the world of George Orwell's novel and censoring a word on a forum; I never said that they were the same, it never even occurred to me that they were similar enough to draw a parallel between them. But my previous point still holds. Censor "rape," and then people start using "bestiality" in casual conversation and I don't like that, so we censor "bestiality." Because some of its connotations offend me, then we put the ban hammer on "furries," because it reminds me of bestiality, and we have a downward spiral.
That's why I'm opposed to getting rid of the word rape in our forum vocabulary.

But that was off topic, that accusation in particular annoyed me—so I felt the need to counter it.

[The Tygre]

I'm not quite sure how I feel about the matter. I don't think we should ban the word, under any circumstances. I mean, sure, you have immature and perverted idiots tossing it around for an extra 'umph' in their psychotic driveling, but sometimes it that extra 'umph' helps people understand your point of view. I say no to banning it.

[AKA_Bait]

For goodness' sake, 1984 is not what we're advocating. Instead, perhaps people should be reminded that we shouldn't see posts like these:


I'm not exactly sure what you are advocating then. Or at least, what you are advocating that anyone on this thread has really substantivley disagreed with. There is already a policy in place to deal with flames and other similar offenses. If you feel a poster is using a term such that it is offensive and degrading to someone, report it.

Re the Mindrape meme, I find it distasteful as well. Not so distasteful that I feel the need to ask the Mods to put a stop to it. The mods have in the past, as with Organ Harvesting, put an end to memes that can be offputting and bad for the general community or new members . If you want that specific meme disallowed, ask for that. There's no need to remove the words that comprise the meme individually or disallow them in other contexts.


Maybe not a bad person in general, but, to borrow a little Tomist Natural Law, it makes them a bad person with respect to that issue.

Generally speaking, I think calling folks bad people for doing something doesn't further the goal of correcting the behavior. More flies with honey and such.

[First Speaker]

We don't disagree that much. I am also of the opinion that people should think before they toss around rape. But what I don't agree with you about is that people that talk about mindraping are bad, and using rape in conversation makes you a bad person.

See the above post, now edited for specific use of 'bad'. It is, I'd argue, a more than one dimensional scale, but predicates of attributes can transfer to their parent objects if one is lazy.


I'm not exactly sure what you are advocating then. Or at least, what you are advocating that anyone on this thread has really substantivley disagreed with. There is already a policy in place to deal with flames and other similar offenses. If you feel a poster is using a term such that it is offensive and degrading to someone, report it.

I'm well aware that many on this board have know issues with rape jokes; ergo, I wouldn't bother addressing a complaint to our benevolent moderators, since it isn't going to be seen as flaming by many people. I am, however, openly affirming my distaste and belief that such use of language is wrong.


Generally speaking, I think calling folks bad people for doing something doesn't further the goal of correcting the behavior. More flies with honey and such.

Gee, so what do we do then? I'd argue that making a stand and saying 'you know what? Wanton and desensitising use of a deeply unpleasant concept is not a good thing.' is exactly what to do to correct behavior - people just don't seem to be aware of the full ramifications of what they're talking about.

[AKA_Bait]

Gee, so what do we do then? I'd argue that making a stand and saying 'you know what? Wanton and desensitising use of a deeply unpleasant concept is not a good thing.' is exactly what to do to correct behavior - people just don't seem to be aware of the full ramifications of what they're talking about.

Well, for one thing you could PM a poster and say that it makes yourself and some other posters uncomforatble when they casually toss out a term like 'rape' and if they would please refrain from doing so, you would be grateful.

In my experience, when you have no actual authority over another person (as we playgrounders do not, excluding the mods), phrasing something as a request rather than as an accusative correction tends to have a better chance of getting them to actually go along with what you want. It takes a special kind of jerk to say "nuts to you and your sensativity" when faced with a polite request. It only takes a person feeling defensive to tell you to go shove it when they are accused of something.

[Arioch]

Gee, so what do we do then? I'd argue that making a stand and saying 'you know what? Wanton and desensitising use of a deeply unpleasant concept is not a good thing.' is exactly what to do to correct behavior - people just don't seem to be aware of the full ramifications of what they're talking about.

I don't think it comes up enough to be called "wanton". And are you really saying that people become desensitised to actual rape by this? I personally have a higher estimation of most people on this forum than that.

[KillianHawkeye]

The only thing I have to say on this topic is this: you can say it on television.

[skywalker]

I think the usage in that particular thread was pretty accurate. Viruses royally [screwed] the poster and their computer against their wishes. I think usages such as "rape of Nanking" are wide-enough spread that the word does not even primarily mean "sexual assault." Politicians, activists, etc. use the word often enough to mean general usage of something(or someone) against their will or the will of the owners. IE: "Our country has been raped..." When someone comes and takes all your natural resources.

I understand that for certain people, it can be a very, very sensitive word. I think people could also work on being less sensitive, especially in a geek culture where the word "rape" is rather common, as in: "I raped that test." "We raped [clan-name] last night." etc.

Just my two cents, tho.

[almyki]

Well, personally, I believe that tossing around the word rape in such casual manners does in fact desensitize people to the action. But only marginally, I'm not talking about "Oh, because they use words like mindrape they don't think rape is a serious and horrible crime" or anything like that. But the power of words and how they're used most definitely effects how people view the subject. It's those issues which are only joked about or crudely used in the most crass of situations that are the ones that are taken most seriously. After all, if people somehow found a way to use a 9/11 reference jokingly in casual conversation, and it became a common term, that's one level less seriously than people take it right now.

However, I don't believe it should be censored (as pretty much everyone on this thread has agreed to), or that there's really much that we can do about it forum-wise. I consider it more of a flaw (or aspect, I suppose it's not necessarily a 'flaw') of our society, and simply a common current in the attitude in which many of our younger youth confront things. More crude and callous in general.

<3 ali

[Devonix]

here's the thing. words only have the power that we give them. Rape only in recent history became more known for sexual assaults. And when most people use it to denote something horribly being done or taken away its being used in its proper form.

Its like most curse words. they only become curses when people get together and decide they are. Anyone could make up a word doesn't matter how silly, and if enough people decide to be offended by it. even if you just made it up its now a curse.

[MrEdwardNigma]

Oh, c'mon now, we're not gonna go banning words that aren't even offensive, are we? We're not the spanish inquisition, after all.

[Om]

Soooo... do I wish folk would be more thoughtful and careful in their language? YesAnd how are you going to make people "more thoughtful and careful in their language"? A suggestion: infraction points for inappropriate use of the term

As for the complaint of censorship, your posts on this board are already censored. There is no slippery slope here

[Arioch]

As for the complaint of censorship, your posts on this board are already censored. There is no slippery slope here

There is, because "rape" is not a swear word, is not, in itself, an offensive word, and is being used in a context appropriate to one of its valid definitions: i.e. ravaging, destruction, etc. It's not flaming, it's not trolling (unless used in a blatant attempt to upset people, which it usually isn't), and, as far as I can see, doesn't break any of The Rules. Thus, there is no ground for issuing an infraction.

[TRM]

And how are you going to make people "more thoughtful and careful in their language"? A suggestion: infraction points for inappropriate use of the term

As for the complaint of censorship, your posts on this board are already censored. There is no slippery slope here
An infraction for that? That's way over the top. Infraction points are only issued rarely (from what I've heard the mods say), it's unreasonable for them to be issued for something as trivial as the inappropriate use of the word "rape."

And, I'm not complaining about censorship in general on these boards; I'm aware that there's plenty of things we can't say, what I'm opposed to is the censoring of words almost on a whim. There are only four actual swear words that I can think of that the board censors automatically (there might be more, I haven't experimented.) and I don't think that "rape" needs to be on that list.

[Charity]

And how are you going to make people "more thoughtful and careful in their language"? A suggestion: infraction points for inappropriate use of the term

As for the complaint of censorship, your posts on this board are already censored. There is no slippery slope here

I'm not going to make anyone do anything, I am of a mind to wish things were other than they are.
I am in no position to do anything about it.
The censorship coment is valid in this case I feel, as I am remarking on the potential removal of a non profanity from the forum vocab.
Obviously there are limits in a public PG forum as to the language allowed and rightly so, but this is a big stride further than than is it not?

[Om]

There is, because "rape" is not a swear word, is not, in itself, an offensive word, and is being used in a context appropriate to one of its valid definitions: i.e. ravaging, destruction, etc. It's not flaming, it's not trolling (unless used in a blatant attempt to upset people, which it usually isn't), and, as far as I can see, doesn't break any of The Rules. Thus, there is no ground for issuing an infraction.Its casual use is clearly something that a number of posters, myself included, are uncomfortable with. Honestly I find some of the examples proffered in this thread to be far more offensive than many of the banned swear words


An infraction for that? That's way over the top. Infraction points are only issued rarely (from what I've heard the mods say), it's unreasonable for them to be issued for something as trivial as the inappropriate use of the word "rape."Let me be clear: I have no issue with the word "rape". Using the term in civilised discussion or RP is not going to cause any offence. Its the casual, throwabout use of the word that I find highly distasteful - witness 'a virus raped my computer' or 'you got mindraped'

As for infraction points, if not them then at least some red text from the mods and an informal warning. The point is that the mods can influence poster behaviour through a number of means


Obviously there are limits in a public PG forum as to the language allowed and rightly so, but this is a big stride further than than is it not?As you say, this is a PG forum... are rape memes really welcome here? If we can't utter even mild curses then why can we use "rape" in causal and completely inappropriate contexts? If we are to have censorship then it should at least be consistent

[Arioch]

causal and completely inappropriate contexts
(emphasis mine)

Ahem...



4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
7. to plunder (a place); despoil.
8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.

[Innis Cabal]

So we should ban a word based simply on some people being uncomrfortable...even though its not used in a context thats negative?

Ya..sounds fair......

[bluewind95]

- witness 'a virus raped my computer'


:smallconfused: I'm assuming you've never been hit by a particularly nasty computer virus? The effects of one can very well fit the "plunder" part of the rape definition perfectly. Plunder is synonymous with ravage. Again, quite fitting for the effect of some viruses. I mean, come on. They render your computer practically useless, steal valuable data from you, destroy it, they CAN indeed have the potential to physically damage things like your harddrive, they can revoke your admin rights on a system, they can delete parts of your system, they can replace them, they can render your antivirus useless, they can do the same to other programs, they can invite new viruses to join in the "fun", and more things like that. Without your consent, too. Yeah, they absolutely ravage the system, if you ask me. Which is synonymous with them raping the system.

[Tengu_temp]

Silliest thread ever. You Americans and your over-obsession with political correctness. *rides away on his polar bear*

[Neon Knight]

...

*defects to Poland*

At any rate, I can see both sides of the issue. I don't think there is an easy answer to this.

[Arioch]

Silliest thread ever. You Americans and your over-obsession with political correctness. *rides away on his polar bear*

Hey! Not all of us are American! *throws teacups at*

[Kjata]

People seriously hve an issue with my word choice? God damn. This viurus really ****ed my computer up bad. Stuff was popping up every 30 seconds, and every hour it froze up. Do you know how hard it is to do homework with "McAfee Antivirus" popping up every 30 seconds?

Seriously, chill out.:smallannoyed:

[First Speaker]

People seriously hve an issue with my word choice? God damn. This viurus really ****ed my computer up bad. Stuff was popping up every 30 seconds, and every hour it froze up. Do you know how hard it is to do homework with "McAfee Antivirus" popping up every 30 seconds?

Do you know anyone who has been raped? I would consider it a tad worse than 'difficulties with homework'.


Ahem...



Originally Posted by dictionary.com
4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
7. to plunder (a place); despoil.
8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.

Ahem.

[Innis Cabal]

I don't get your Ahem there. I'll just take it as you being reasonable and seeing the point of those of us who'se flesh is not made of glass.

[almyki]

Silliest thread ever. You Americans and your over-obsession with political correctness. *rides away on his polar bear*

I resent that.

ali

[Innis Cabal]

His point was made. Good show.

[TRM]

Do you know anyone who has been raped? I would consider it a tad worse than 'difficulties with homework'.

"We really massacred that other sports team last night! Good show!"

Were you close to anyone who has been massacred? I would say that it isn't at all synonymous with losing in a football match.

Now, I'm not saying that rape isn't a big deal—I agree completely that the act of rape is bad. But the word itself is not bad and we should be allowed to use it if we want.

[Zherog]

Do you know anyone who has been raped?

Yes, yes I do. More than one person, as a matter of fact. It's a terrible, life shattering event.

And that said, I have no problems at all Kjata's thread title.


Now, I'm not saying that rape isn't a big deal—I agree completely that the act of rape is bad. But the word itself is not bad and we should be allowed to use it if we want.

Exactly.

[Kjata]

4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.


The viruses plundered my computer.
The viruses violently seized my computed.
The viruses abused my computer.
The viruses raped my computer.

[Crow]

If I was to go around in my posts and refer to things as "gay", like I do in real life, (They made you leave your dog in the car? That's gay.") eventually somebody on here would be offended by that usage of the word (which is pretty common slang nowadays). Gay has a common association nowadays which is different from some of it's definitions.

I do feel that some of the more brazen usage of the word "rape" needs to be cracked down on. In most cases, the word is not being used in commonly acceptable situations. It is important to note, that while the word rape has several definitions, in this day and age, the word most commonly evokes thoughts of the physical act of raping a person more than any of it's other definitions. Rape is synonomous with the physical and mental subjugation of another human being. Nobody on this forum would be happy with frequent and casual allusions to the holocaust or slavery, and probably wouldn't even even be ok with me casually using the word "gay".

While there shouldn't be a complete ban on the word, I think people should use more care in how they use it.

As far as the Mindrape spell is concerned, there is not much we can do about that. Personally, I find the name of this spell to be detestable. Having known and worked with many victims of rape over the years, I know that rape is far more than a physical crime, but a mental one as well. Many victims of rape, have been essentially "mind-raped", and I am saddened that WotC decided to use such an insensitive term in their published work.

[Jack Squat]

I'll agree with most of the people here...while it probably wasn't the best word choice, there's really nothing wrong about the word.

IMO, if you're offended by a word (not the acts the word describes, but the word itself), you've got a lot to learn about life.

[Demented]

We should probably also ban 'God'.

The parallels:
Rape is not an offensive word. However, it offends a select group of people when used casually for a purpose other than the one definition that the select group of people have selected for it.
God is not an offensive word. However, it offends a select group of people when used casually for a purpose other than the one definition that the select group of people have selected for it.

Though, in this case, 'ban' means 'give a stern talking to anyone who uses it inappropriately'. Shakespeare comes to mind... :smallconfused:

P.S.
My computer aborted an operation. =D =D =D

[Innis Cabal]

I'm offended by the word the. Can we ban it to?

[Emperor Tippy]

Meh. It's a word with many valid uses on these boards, it really shouldn't be banned.

In many games it is a perfectly valid word, even when used for its sexual meaning. Lot's of books, movies, and TV shows mention rape as well (as both a sexual term and in its other usages). Mindrape is a spell, and rape is mentioned in various D&D books.

So basically, if you have a problem with it, get over it.

[skywalker]

I want to pop back in and say that, even tho the discussion has long passed this point by, that we are most definitely not a PG forum. We are at least PG-13, which we should be, no one under 13 should be on a forum in the first place. We discuss things with regularity, however, that would never show up anywhere considered "PG." I think, were it a movie, the comic might actually be considered "R" in my neck of the woods, because I'm pretty sure "G*dd*mn" has been used before. We don't take kindly to dis-respectin' tha Lord round heer!

[Paragon Badger]

Words happen everyday.

I'm personally at risk for a disease that's name pops up in casual, unrelated, conversation from time to time. My mom suffered from the same disease. Note how I use the past tense, and she wasn't cured. I don't get offended by 'Yo momma' jokes.

If I let it get to me everytime I heard those kind of things, I'd be a total mess. If someone was abused as a child by a golfclub wielding drunk, should we ban the use of golfclubs for their protection?

Words happen everyday, and we'll all just have to live with them. Besides, its' the intent behind words that scathe, not their usage by itself.

[Return of Lanky]

I understand that rape is a horrible act. Honestly, my only use for a rapist would be fuel for an oven. That's how little I think of them. Bugger the elimination of capital punishment, some people are begging for castration through their actions.

That said, I don't see the offensiveness in the use of the word... and I've volunteered at a Rape Survivor Clinic for two years now.

[Zeta Kai]

Yes, rape is a deplorable act. It's a foul action by depraved people who can't control their impulses. And it should probably be a capital offense for repeated convictions.

Now that being said, if we have to censor or words & thoughts to appease everyone, then the free exchange of ideas that this forum is based on could collapse into a miasma of quackspeak & PC platitudes. I, for one, would protest against any additional censorship of this or any other forum. I feel that censoring people's words makes us all a little less free. It leads to thin-skinned whiners getting shocked at the drop of a hat, who gain a bit of pleasure from being offended by other people words.

Now go away before I plunder & despoil the lot of you. :smallwink:

[Mewtarthio]

As far as the Mindrape spell is concerned, there is not much we can do about that. Personally, I find the name of this spell to be detestable. Having known and worked with many victims of rape over the years, I know that rape is far more than a physical crime, but a mental one as well. Many victims of rape, have been essentially "mind-raped", and I am saddened that WotC decided to use such an insensitive term in their published work.

It was the Book of Vile Darkness. The spell in question tears apart the victim's mind and lets the caster complete access to all their thoughts and memories. Then, the caster gets the option to either leave the victim a permanently insane wreck or rebuilt their memories and personality from scratch. It is, in short, as much emotional trauma and domination as you can possibly get from a spell. I don't think calling it "rape" is inappropriate.

[Talic]

There are only two real guidelines I can see for this violating board policy.

1) Profanity - this is not.

2) Family Friendly - The owner of the site has intimated that he wants this site to be friendly to a wide audience. He further made the forum posting guidelines stricter than many places, to foster an atmosphere of goodwill and respect.

On this front, the casual bandying of a severely traumatic crime could be considered moddable, I'd wager. There are many definitions of rape, and certainly, referring to published WotC material couldn't get you in hot water, could it? (oh wait, BoEF.) But when used out of context, the term "rape" goes back to the one that people are worrying about here.

Let's face it. In some aspects, some WotC material wouldn't be appropriate for general use. Bottom line, be respectful. That's what the mods look at, and that's what you should be looking at when you make your posts. Remember that 8 year olds read these pages, as much as 20 and 30 somethings.

[Paragon Badger]

There are only two real guidelines I can see for this violating board policy.

1) Profanity - this is not.

2) Family Friendly - The owner of the site has intimated that he wants this site to be friendly to a wide audience. He further made the forum posting guidelines stricter than many places, to foster an atmosphere of goodwill and respect.

On this front, the casual bandying of a severely traumatic crime could be considered moddable, I'd wager. There are many definitions of rape, and certainly, referring to published WotC material couldn't get you in hot water, could it? (oh wait, BoEF.) But when used out of context, the term "rape" goes back to the one that people are worrying about here.

Let's face it. In some aspects, some WotC material wouldn't be appropriate for general use. Bottom line, be respectful. That's what the mods look at, and that's what you should be looking at when you make your posts. Remember that 8 year olds read these pages, as much as 20 and 30 somethings.

I thought the Book of Naughty Deeds was third party, not WotC.

Also, this forum, and the comic, is not intended for anyone below 13. Thog cuts people in half and Nale plasters the walls with blood. There are numerous direct references to genitals. People are called 'Bitch' and 'Bastard' on regular occasions.

The Giant has actually stated that one of the reasons for the early comics involving Haley's gradual disrobing (as she's checking for traps) and Elan's nudity was to explicitly point out that this comic wasn't quite for children.

So if 8 year olds are reading this forum, they shoulden't be. :smalltongue:

Frankly, people who get offended by words spoken casually without malice are either;

A. Going to be unhappy for a good portion of their lives if such petty things bother them. Or,
B. Defending people who don't really need defending... because they are not in Category A.

[Cuddly]

Based on the general atmosphere the modteam here tries to foster, I think the word should be regulated or infracted or something. Certainly not bandied about so casually as children on the internet like to do. You can argue semantics as much as you like, but it's an offensive word. Casual use shows a callous disregard for the experience and feelings of others, and it has been made abundantly clear as to how gitp values people's feelings and polite discourse.

In general, I am anti-censorship, but in the grand scheme of freedom of speech, gitp is entirely inconsequential.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

In general, I am anti-censorship, but in the grand scheme of freedom of speech, gitp is entirely inconsequential.But it comes down to the principle of the thing. And beyond that, it's wrong. It may be one word, on one forum, but it's still censorship, and not even of a curse word(though I really don't think they need to be censored, either). I'm still a bit upset about the fact that words are censored at all on this site, though I understand that it's the owner's wishes(the issue I have is that we can get Belkar in the comic, but can't curse on the forum). Rape is a horrible act, and I think the punishment needs to involve rope and oak trees, but using a word in an appropriate context, even if it is hyperbole, doesn't seem like it would be offensive enough to justify censorship.

On Mindrape: It's an 'Evil' spell of 9th level that, as a Standard Action, allows you full unfettered access to a person's brain, allowing you to rewrite their memories, emotions, and soul, turning them into your gibbering slave if you wish, and making them thank you for it afterwords. I find the name to be both accurate and deserved.

[turkishproverb]

Based on the general atmosphere the modteam here tries to foster, I think the word should be regulated or infracted or something. Certainly not bandied about so casually as children on the internet like to do. You can argue semantics as much as you like, but it's an offensive word. Casual use shows a callous disregard for the experience and feelings of others, and it has been made abundantly clear as to how gitp values people's feelings and polite discourse.

In general, I am anti-censorship, but in the grand scheme of freedom of speech, gitp is entirely inconsequential.

Besides what Stoopidtallkid said, another obvious factor is the claim that it should be banned "because the word is offensive". Any site that tolerates/accepts as much diversity as Giantitp is going to deal with some conflicting views on what is offensive.

[Cuddly]

But it comes down to the principle of the thing.

Not really. I'm all for private entities deciding what they want and don't want on their property.


And beyond that, it's wrong.

How? Just go elsewhere if such minor censorship upsets you so much. It's not like gitp has coercive force.


It may be one word, on one forum, but it's still censorship, and not even of a curse word(though I really don't think they need to be censored, either). I'm still a bit upset about the fact that words are censored at all on this site, though I understand that it's the owner's wishes(the issue I have is that we can get Belkar in the comic, but can't curse on the forum).

Vote with your feet. Or in this case, your browser.


Rape is a horrible act, and I think the punishment needs to involve rope and oak trees, but using a word in an appropriate context, even if it is hyperbole, doesn't seem like it would be offensive enough to justify censorship.

Neither do curse words, or calling an idiot an idiot, but in the context of these fora it is perfectly reasonable to say, restrict the use of a word that's loaded with so much baggage. Aren't like one out of four or one out of eight women sexually assaulted at some point in their lives?


On Mindrape: It's an 'Evil' spell of 9th level that, as a Standard Action, allows you full unfettered access to a person's brain, allowing you to rewrite their memories, emotions, and soul, turning them into your gibbering slave if you wish, and making them thank you for it afterwords. I find the name to be both accurate and deserved.

I wasn't endorsing a ban on the word; just some moderation on the sort of "pwnd u got raped!!" context.


Besides what Stoopidtallkid said, another obvious factor is the claim that it should be banned "because the word is offensive". Any site that tolerates/accepts as much diversity as Giantitp is going to deal with some conflicting views on what is offensive.

I think disrespecting rape victims falls into the same category as homophobia or flaming.

[Arioch]

How? Just go elsewhere if such minor censorship upsets you so much. It's not like gitp has coercive force.
...
Vote with your feet. Or in this case, your browser.

The same could be said to you. If it bothers you that much, go elsewhere.

[Innis Cabal]

Not really. I'm all for private entities deciding what they want and don't want on their property.



How? Just go elsewhere if such minor censorship upsets you so much. It's not like gitp has coercive force.


Neither do curse words, or calling an idiot an idiot, but in the context of these fora it is perfectly reasonable to say, restrict the use of a word that's loaded with so much baggage. Aren't like one out of four or one out of eight women sexually assaulted at some point in their lives?


I wasn't endorsing a ban on the word; just some moderation on the sort of "pwnd u got raped!!" context.


I think disrespecting rape victims falls into the same category as homophobia or flaming.

1. They have(At the moment) decided not to ban the word. It seems your not so ok with it.
2. Same to you. This is a PG-13 forum and the word has more then one meaning. If you want a nice coushy world, go there. Not here.
3. No one here is saying its not an awful thing to be raped. It also happens to guys. No one talks about that. I digress, just because it happens dosn't mean we should stop using a word that dosn't just apply to it. Why don't we ban the word genocide, its alot worse then rape by merit of scale and -loss- of life
4. Moderation would be simply silly and would cause alot more problems then it would solve.
5. I think disrespecting people over the use of a word your to sensitive to deal with is in the same boat as flaming.

[Cuddly]

The same could be said to you. If it bothers you that much, go elsewhere.

It's a good thing it doesn't bother me that much.


1. They have(At the moment) decided not to ban the word. It seems your not so ok with it.

It's you are. You're. Not the possessive 'your'.
And I would be interested in what the mod team has to say about. It would make sense to me if they restricted use of the word, since they have expressed interest numerous times in not having anyone getting offended or having their feelings hurt. I would not, however, be surprised if they did nothing about it.


2. Same to you. This is a PG-13 forum and the word has more then one meaning. If you want a nice coushy world, go there. Not here.

This is an exceedingly cushy forum. You're not allowed to insult me directly, for instance.


3. No one here is saying its not an awful thing to be raped. It also happens to guys. No one talks about that. I digress, just because it happens dosn't mean we should stop using a word that dosn't just apply to it. Why don't we ban the word genocide, its alot worse then rape by merit of scale and -loss- of life

Because no one casually uses genocide as a verb?


4. Moderation would be simply silly and would cause alot more problems then it would solve.

Most moderation IS silly. But in the context of these fora, it makes perfect sense to restrict the use of the word.


5. I think disrespecting people over the use of a word your to sensitive to deal with is in the same boat as flaming.

Then it's a good thing I'm not disrespecting anyone over words I'm sensitive to!

[Innis Cabal]

It's a good thing it doesn't bother me that much.


Then why argue for moderation?

And people use genocide all the time, and worse terms in PbP, lets just mod them all.

[averagejoe]

I think disrespecting rape victims falls into the same category as homophobia or flaming.

This sort of thing gets thrown around a lot whenever there's a discussion of this type; however, it's my experience that it rarely comes from the victims themselves. (Be the discussion about rape, sexism, violence, or whatever.) Now, maybe you are a rape victim, in which case I'm sorry. I'm just trying to point out that it is often the case that the victims are often spoken up for but rarely heard from.

[Arioch]

It's a good thing it doesn't bother me that much.

Oh, good. Then we can stop arguing about this and leave everything as it is.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

Comrade Gorby: We definitely recognize this is a sensitive issue.

At the moment, the word rape is not on the worldfilter list. However, it certainly has a powerful and often disturbing connotation - the act of rape is, as has been said here several times, wholly detestable, monstrous, and abhorrent. That being said, it is a word with certain colloquial meanings that do fall within acceptable use in certain topics.

The current thought is this - advocating rape, or using it as a threat is absolutely against the rules and falls under the auspices of the Immediate Ban for Criminal Activity. I would further add that in cases such as that, if it appears to be a threat with actual weight, we would absolutely contact the appropriate authorities with any information we had.

The more "casual" but still obviously offensive uses of the word would also likely fall under Flaming or Inappropriate Topic rules.

Right now, there are enough colloquial uses of the word that don't reach the level of offensiveness that we have not added it to the wordfilter. However, if it becomes a problem with posters using it inappropriately on a regular basis, we will take action.

We do try and discuss things like this as they come up, and as any long time poster can tell you, the forum rules evolve over time as new situations crop up.

Right now our feeling is that the forum rules as they currently exist provide significant and appropriate penalties for misuse of the word, and that further action is not needed or appropriate currently. But we'll keep an eye on things.

[Tirian]

The more "casual" but still obviously offensive uses of the word would also likely fall under Flaming or Inappropriate Topic rules.

[...]

Right now our feeling is that the forum rules as they currently exist provide significant and appropriate penalties for misuse of the word, and that further action is not needed or appropriate currently. But we'll keep an eye on things.

Thank you for the clarification. I had a sense that mods would take appropriate actions on a case-by-case basis, but I was not certain whether the metaphorical uses had taken a firm foothold in civilized online discussion and was therefore the duty of the reader to "get over it".

[Serpentine]

Incidentally, banning the word "rape" could also severely hamper the deep and intellectual discussion of canola and its products! D=

[Tsotha-lanti]

can I ask what possible value the use of the word 'rape' adds to 'viruses have raped my computer'?

What does it need to add? That seems like a pretty precise use of the word.

As a feminist, I am, obviously, a proponent of free speech (which includes all sorts of offensive, insulting, and bigoted speech - all of which are defined by the ideas conveyed, not the words used). The very notion that a word like "rape" should be banned is repellent - in fact, it can only accomplish negative things, preventing actual discussion of the subject, should there be occasion for it. (Trigger warnings kplzthx.)

It's bad enough that I ****ing can't say **** on this ****ing forum, you know? No need to ban words that aren't even "swears."

The euphemism treadmill pointed out by The_Rogue_Monk is also a very relevant point. Words are constantly exchanged for new ones because the concept they refer to is considered unpleasant.


I will say it's an unfortunate neologism, but let me put it to you this way: are we also going to ban the word "murder"? Or to go a bit further to make sure we're not underestimating the problem, how about "genocide"? Those are both terrible, terrible things that are, for some reason, used as casual hyperbole nowadays.

I never understood why "rape" would be considered a worse word than "murder" or "torture." Those are crimes in the same vein, but much more terrifying (and permanent, in the case of murder).

First Speaker, do you also object to people using words like murder and torture when they aren't referring to literal murder and torture? Or do you argue that these are less horrible crimes?

Are people who say, "Oh, I could just murder a steak right now" or "Sitting through that musical was torture" bad people? They're doing the exact same freaking thing.

The only reason I can see why anyone would think rape is a worse word is because it is sexual, and anything sexual is taboo in "western" culture. (Whereas violence unconnected to sexuality is fine and dandy.) This is ridiculous, uncritical, and pretty offensive.

Enforcing any kind of rules on the use of similes like this is not sensible in any way.


Ban? Don't need to ban. Just agree that people who (not that anyone here does) toss the word 'rape' around as if it were a synonym to 'mildly aggravate' are bad people and should feel bad.

Load of crap. They're just using words the way they've learned them. They may be thoughtless, but that's it. (The same goes for uses of words like "retarded" or "gay" as adjectives meaning "undesirable" or "bad".)

[Philistine]

I do understand that the word "rape" has a number of secondary, archaic uses which are not tied to sexual assault. But I can't help thinking that a big part of the reason "rape" is used in the contexts under discussion (rather than less-loaded synonyms such as "ravage" or "devastate") is because the primary modern definition of the word is sexual assault, and "rape" carries that connotation even in settings where actual sexual assault wouldn't be physically possible.

I'm not calling for moderation of or infractions for the use of the word, much less banning it. I just wish people would at least pretend to have a little class once in a while.

[AstralFire]

I do understand that the word "rape" has a number of secondary, archaic uses which are not tied to sexual assault. But I can't help thinking that a big part of the reason "rape" is used in the contexts under discussion (rather than less-loaded synonyms such as "ravage" or "devastate") is because the primary modern definition of the word is sexual assault, and "rape" carries that connotation even in settings where actual sexual assault wouldn't be physically possible.

It may have become repopularized due to that, but the word does have those established meanings (and I'd hardly call them archaic) and it's used in such non-sexual contexts that attempting to guess why any particular individual is using it, is futile.

I moderate for the word's casual usage elsewhere, but I have never agreed with that policy. Is it offensive to go "yeah! The Hokies MURDERED West Kentucky!" after a particularly lopsided football game? Murder is itself a very serious crime.

[averagejoe]

I never understood why "rape" would be considered a worse word than "murder" or "torture." Those are crimes in the same vein, but much more terrifying (and permanent, in the case of murder).

Well, this may sound a little cold, but death is a fairly natural process; it happens to everyone. Also, murder victims are much more easily ignored, and don't have to deal with any aftermath. Murder is also much harder to generalize, and is in and of itself a pretty vague word. Rape, however, is pretty terrifyingly specific; it's almost always one person abusing the power they have over another person (which is the part that I, personally, find gut-twisting. Domestic violence bothers me for similar reasons, and bothers me more than murder.)

To be clear, I'm not trying to paint rape as better or worse than murder. I think the very concept of "ranking" problems as if one had more legitimacy than the other is silly. However, I can certainly see why someone might be more bothered by rape than murder, and not just for cynical society-loves-violence-hates-sex reasons (rape is a violent crime anyways.) I'm not saying that the word needs banning, just that it's understandable that some people might be bothered more by "rape" than "murder."

[puppyavenger]

Well, this may sound a little cold, but death is a fairly natural process; it happens to everyone. Also, murder victims are much more easily ignored, and don't have to deal with any aftermath. Murder is also much harder to generalize, and is in and of itself a pretty vague word. Rape, however, is pretty terrifyingly specific; it's almost always one person abusing the power they have over another person (which is the part that I, personally, find gut-twisting. Domestic violence bothers me for similar reasons, and bothers me more than murder.)

To be clear, I'm not trying to paint rape as better or worse than murder. I think the very concept of "ranking" problems as if one had more legitimacy than the other is silly. However, I can certainly see why someone might be more bothered by rape than murder, and not just for cynical society-loves-violence-hates-sex reasons (rape is a violent crime anyways.) I'm not saying that the word needs banning, just that it's understandable that some people might be bothered more by "rape" than "murder."

and torture?

also, "rape" begin used to mean something like "raping the land of its resources" is not exactly archaic, one of the VP candidates used it I believe.

for the US election I mean.

[Tormsskull]

Never outsource your ability to be offended. People use words in strange ways all the time. While it may sound odd to you, doesn't the intent behind the word mean more than the word its self?

If you were to be writing a book or doing some kind of official communications I would strongly advise against using certain words in certain contexts, but on a message board with an average age probably in the high teens, I'd say its not that big of a deal.

[Lady Tialait]

I've been watching this thread, I sooo love the Mods here. I like the current idea of just watching it, as long as it's not ment to offend or threaten it's all good.

I have no problem with any word or combination of words that can work together to make an image in the American vocabulary....save one:

Tialait isn't getting cookies.


That should SOOOOO be banned.


@V: You make me a sad druid.

[AstralFire]

Yes, torture is quite deliberate and very evil; yet 'torturous' is a non-offensive pejorative.

And Tialait? NO COOKIES FOR YOU.

[Zeta Kai]

I do understand that the word "rape" has a number of secondary, archaic uses which are not tied to sexual assault. But I can't help thinking that a big part of the reason "rape" is used in the contexts under discussion (rather than less-loaded synonyms such as "ravage" or "devastate") is because the primary modern definition of the word is sexual assault, and "rape" carries that connotation even in settings where actual sexual assault wouldn't be physically possible.

The "plunder/despoil" meaning of rape is neither secondary nor archaic. It was the original definition, & it has maintained that meaning up to the present day. The reason that its newer meaning of "sexual assault" is more prominent nowadays is that we never had a word before to define such acts, & it has a conciseness & vocal punch that other related terms (incest, molestation, violation) do not. To say "I was raped" or "I raped that dude in football" or "The environment is being raped" (while emotionally quite different) all use a euphemism, to a certain extent; to say "I was plundered" or "I plundered him" carries the same basic concept.

[hamishspence]

Whats odd is at least one of the synonyms has become complimentary:

"That woman is ravishing"

Older:

"The man is ravishing the woman"

[AKA_Bait]

Whats odd is at least one of the synonyms has become complimentary:

"That woman is ravishing"

Older:

"The man is ravishing the woman"

It's true, the verb 'to ravish' has lost it's negative connotations for the most part. A guy could whisper to his sig other 'You look so hot, I'm going to ravish you when we get home tonight' and have it be cool. He really couldn't ever say that sentence with the word rape swapped for ravish, no matter the circumstances.

[hamishspence]

now, yes, but give it a hundred or more years. Maybe another word will lose its significance too.

Until it does, caution is recommended in use of it.

[Philistine]

"Archaic" was the way the non-sexual assault definitions of "rape" were listed at Dictionary.com - feel free take that up with them. As for its use in a political speech... even without knowing specifics, I'd bet that the candidate (or speechwriter, more likely) specifically chose the word "rape" in that case because it's such a heavily-loaded term, which in turn is because of its sexual assault connotation. Anyway, "grandstanding political speeches" aren't "everyday usage."

One of the fun things about the English language is that we often have whole batteries of words which are at least roughly synonymous with each other. In those cases, it's the different connotations of different words which make some more applicable to a given situation than others. The connotations of the word "rape" are very strong, and very specific. So here's my question: Is "Viruses are raping my computer" more clear than "Viruses are ravaging my computer," "Viruses are ruining my computer," or "Viruses are wrecking my computer"? No, it really isn't. So the reason to choose "rape" over a less-loaded alternative does appear to boil down to the connotations of the word.

As a sidenote: Argument 1 seems to be that colloquial use of the word "rape" is fine because of its secondary definitions. Argument 2 seems to be that colloquial use of the word "rape" is fine because of (or at least, no worse than) the colloquial use of other words, including "murder" - and "murder," when used as a verb, has no non-slang alternative definition. Personally, I don't think the two arguments are at all consistent or compatible; in fact, it seems to me that the second completely undercuts the first.

[TRM]

As a sidenote: Argument 1 seems to be that colloquial use of the word "rape" is fine because of its secondary definitions. Argument 2 seems to be that colloquial use of the word "rape" is fine because of (or at least, no worse than) the colloquial use of other words, including "murder" - and "murder," when used as a verb, has no non-slang alternative definition. Personally, I don't think the two arguments are at all consistent or compatible; in fact, it seems to me that the second completely undercuts the first.
A third argument is that there's nothing wrong with using the word in any if its definitions; but that using it in an abusive way (like: "I'm going to rape you Philistine, 'cause I disagree with you so much.") is not tolerated.

This also happens to be the position endorsed by the mods (and myself, before the mods :smalltongue:).

[Zherog]

... - and "murder," when used as a verb, has no non-slang alternative definition.

Really?

"The Tampa Bay Rays murdered the Boston Red Sox in their playoff game yesterday afternoon."

So... either we have 25 dead baseball players, or we have a slang use of the word.

[hamishspence]

"I could muuurder a kebab" In best Scottish :smallbiggrin:

[averagejoe]

and torture?

I dunno, it's not a subject I've given a lot of thought to. I would hypothesize that it's almost the other way-something so utterly painful that it's difficult for people to really imagine that something like that could exist. Also, it's popular in stories for the hero to get tortured, just to show how tough he is, but it has become so common that it's hard to take torture too seriously anymore, at least in any context that doesn't specifically look at real life examples. I suspect something similar could have happened to rape if it was more common, but you can't have male heroes get raped to show their toughness because of cultural double standards. This is just off the top of my head, though.

Edit:

"I could muuurder a kebab" In best Scottish :smallbiggrin:


I'd murder a steak... IN AMERICA!

[Arioch]

I dunno, it's not a subject I've given a lot of thought to. I would hypothesize that it's almost the other way-something so utterly painful that it's difficult for people to really imagine that something like that could exist. Also, it's popular in stories for the hero to get tortured, just to show how tough he is, but it has become so common that it's hard to take torture too seriously anymore, at least in any context that doesn't specifically look at real life examples. I suspect something similar could have happened to rape if it was more common, but you can't have male heroes get raped to show their toughness because of cultural double standards. This is just off the top of my head, though.

I personally consider torture to be one of the worst crimes that exists - there's a reason it's a war crime.

[averagejoe]

I personally consider torture to be one of the worst crimes that exists - there's a reason it's a war crime.

Yes, but I'm not talking about the severity of the crime itself, I'm talking about the reasons people have visceral reactions to certain actions, and the reasons why "torture" is acceptable in common use, but "rape" tends to be impolite and, you know, the stuff that the OP has been talking about. This has nothing to do with the severity of the crime on, I don't know, some sort of hypothetical severity-o-meter that everyone seems to be agonizing over.

[GoC]

I mean, if I start going about talking about 'the holocaust that was inflicted during the D&D game on Sunday', then sure, I could be referring to 'a sacrifice consumed by fire', would people find that totally acceptable, and come rushing to my defence when I was called up on it? No, of course not, because we know that the word is so heavily laden down with connotations of the Shoah, one of the worst genocides in history.
I would find it totaly acceptable and have no idea why you think otherwise. It would just be a metaphore and using a word doesn't mean you support the action.

EDIT: Then again I also find it annoying that people consider rape something that either happened or didn't (like murder). It's a sliding scale with people not even sure they were raped and damage ranging from the equivalent of unfaithfulnees to something terrible enough that it's a severe form of torture.

[hamishspence]

D&D already uses it: holocaust cloak, Living Holocaust creature.

[Zeta Kai]

I personally consider torture to be one of the worst crimes that exists - there's a reason it's a war crime.

Rape is, IMO & others, a subset of torture. It is also a war crime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime).

[hamishspence]

In book on subject, written by guy who did the Stanford Prison Experiment, it said the crime of torture is something specifically committed with the sanction of public organizations: the government, the army, the police, the secret police.

When done by private persons, it is termed abuse.

D&D Fiendish Codex 2, however, does not make that distinction.

[Zeta Kai]

In book on subject, written by guy who did the Stanford Prison Experiment, it said the crime of torture is something specifically committed with the sanction of public organizations: the government, the army, the police, the secret police.

When done by private persons, it is termed abuse.

D&D Fiendish Codex 2, however, does not make that distinction.

I don't care who says that; it's wrong, & a silly distinction besides.

For example, let's take Jigsaw, the primary antagonist from the Saw movies. What he does (or causes people to do to themselves) would commonly be considered torture. It doesn't matter that he's not being paid by an organization. It doesn't matter that he's not doing it to extract information from his victims. Serial killers can & do torture people. They don't abuse them, & a distinction of terminology is irrelevent & frankly bizarre. The killers listed here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_murder) are only rarely state sanctioned.

[hamishspence]

Maybe its just a Geneva Convention definition of the word. Am not sure: haven't read said convention, though heard a lot about it.

[Cuddly]

In book on subject, written by guy who did the Stanford Prison Experiment, it said the crime of torture is something specifically committed with the sanction of public organizations: the government, the army, the police, the secret police.

When done by private persons, it is termed abuse.

D&D Fiendish Codex 2, however, does not make that distinction.

Sort of like how murder is simply not state-sponsored homicide?

[TRM]

Should this thread still be unlocked? Is there still useful discussion taking place?

[Demented]

Well, we're slowly progressing towards the question of whether it's more or less appropriate to say "viruses are waterboarding my computer". That could be useful...

[hamishspence]

It was said earlier that this forum is not PG 13.

My point to make is: even if it was, books marketed at 13-odd year olds have humour as grim as many things seen here.

Terry Deary's Horrible Histories series would fit, gory punishments, murders, unpleasant events galore.

Typical example: The Slimy Stuarts, after long discussion of various crimes and criminal names.

"Aren't you just glad you live in the 20th Century where all you have to worry about are hackers (who don't use a hacksaw), twockers (who don't steal twocks), muggers (who aren't after your mug) armed robbers (who have three arms . . . left arm, right arm, and fire-arm) and serial killers . . ."
With picture underneath of a man with a raised knife saying "I could murder a bowl of cornflakes"

In short, one should remember whats age-appropriate now has changed a lot over time.

Somebody once said one of the ways of coping with evil is to laugh at it.

[Innis Cabal]

Should this thread still be unlocked? Is there still useful discussion taking place?

Your a mod now, awsome. Grats!

[Arioch]

Your a mod now, awsome. Grats!

If this is as sarcastic and caustic as it seems, I think it's uncalled for, especially as he raises a valid point.

[Demented]

He wasn't making a point. He was just asking if the discussion here was informative and relevant to the topic, thus being 'useful'.

...Right?

[TRM]

If this is as sarcastic and caustic as it seems, I think it's uncalled for, especially as he raises a valid point.
Thanks. :smallsmile:

I have nothing more to add so, *leaves*

[Stormthorn]

My .002 platinum is that you should be able to say whatever words you want to, so long as it falls short of hate-speech. For instance, what if i wanted to say:

"The good writers touch life often. The mediorcre ones run a quick hand over her. The bad ones rape her and leave her for the flies."

[GKBeetle]

Here's my opinion on the matter. I actually have a good friend who was raped several times by her boyfriend several years ago. For the most part, she seems perfectly normal to the casual observer. When I met her, I had no idea that this had happened to her. In my group of friends, the term, "mind-f***" was often thrown around to describe somebody messing with someone's head. After we got to know her better and learned about her history, she politely asked us to stop using the term, as it brought up very bad images for her. Since then, none of us have had any problem removing the term from our speech. It's not needed, it just sounded kind of cool.

Now, we never really used the term mindrape, which from what I've read in this thread is one of the terms in question. I'm pretty sure if mind-f was bad to someone who had actually raped, mindrape would have to be worse. I guess what I'm getting at here is that being around someone who has had this happen to them has helped me to understand that the words you use can be powerful, especially loaded words like rape, and should be used with caution. In my opinion, the word rape should probably only be used for a good reason. Using it to casually describe something that has nothing to do with sexual rape may be insensitive to people who have reason to be affected by that word, especially when there are other words that can do the same job to describe what you are talking about.

:smallsmile:

[Tsotha-lanti]

And, then, some of us know rape survivors who are perfectly fine with using the word, and even "overuse" it.

Expecting us to sensor words because someone might attach trauma to them is unreasonable. Asking us to, say, add [Trigger Warning] to the topic of a thread that deals in detail with a traumatic experience (abuse, rape, torture, what the **** ever) isn't.

If a person specifically requests in a specific context that a specific word not be used out of respect for them, that's quite fine. But everyone's also free to not go along with that request, when it simply concerns using a word or term. It may be insensitive or disrespectful, but that's free speech for you.

There's only so much precaution against uncommon unintentional offences that you can expect people to take. (How many posters here describe something as "retarded" ? Hello, ableism.)

[AKA_Bait]

For instance, what if i wanted to say:

"The good writers touch life often. The mediorcre ones run a quick hand over her. The bad ones rape her and leave her for the flies."

Then you would not only be making a comment in poor taste, you would also be making one that didn't make much sense. Seriously, bad writers rape life? What does that even mean? Was there any point of using the word rape and the phrase 'left for the flies' other than the provocative nature of the word and image itself? If so, it's exactly the kind of phrase that, although I wouldn't ban it, I'd cringe when I saw it and wish the writer had thought their use of language through more.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Okay, the question's been answered regarding how we handle this sensitive issue. The thread's now branching into definitions, international politics, and literary criticism. Thread locked.