Sources of 'ultimate arcane power'

[pendell]

There's been speculation :vaarsuvius: will sell hir soul to Qarr in exchange for ULTIMATE ARCANE POWA!!!

Problem I have with that is that the devils on OOTSland don't have ultimate arcane power to give. They're trapped in the lower planes by the gods, presumably.

So allying with Qarr may offer :vaarsuvius: more power than s/he currently has, but it doesn't seem to be a path to ULTIMATE ARCANE POWA!!! Especially since the devils will be using hir as a catspaw. I strongly doubt they give someone so much power without some kind of safety word or such like that would shut 'em down as part of the pact.

So :vaarsuvius: can't get ultimate power from the devils. Presumably s/he is smart enough to know that.

For that matter, even the gods themselves don't seem to have ultimate arcane power. Thor doesn't utterly dominate Loki, and the 12 gods collectively are a match for Thor and Odin. So no individual god in OOTSverse can offer ultimate arcane power.

Possibly all the gods working together could make V the most powerful elf magic user EVAH or ever will be -- maybe even promote hir into the pantheon as god(dess) of magic -- but even this isn't ultimate arcane power. As god(dess) of magic, V would be the most powerful *arcane* source in the world, s/he will still only be one god among many in a pantheon. By virtue of the portfolio, there will still come times when V is *not powerful enough*.

The only way I can see to Ultimate Arcane Power is to use the Snarl to kill all the other gods utterly, rise as a god him/herself, and assume their portfolios.

Or am I reading too much into this ?

So I guess this is my question: How could V reasonably achieve 'ultimate arcane power' under 3.5 mechanics, and exactly what does UAP mean, anyway?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Belkster11]

Well, if V becomes like a god(dess) on earth, then that pretty much ends the plot. All V would have to do is go to Xykon and raze him and his army, then go the Snarl and kill it and it'd be over in 15 strips.

I think what V's trying to do is get as much spells as possible so that he can be more powerful than any other elf. He does, afterall, have loyalty to his elvish gods, so why would V be trying to overmatch it?

[Thant]

There's been speculation :vaarsuvius: will sell hir soul to Qarr in exchange for ULTIMATE ARCANE POWA!!!

Problem I have with that is that the devils on OOTSland don't have ultimate arcane power to give. They're trapped in the lower planes by the gods, presumably.

So allying with Qarr may offer :vaarsuvius: more power than s/he currently has, but it doesn't seem to be a path to ULTIMATE ARCANE POWA!!! Especially since the devils will be using hir as a catspaw. I strongly doubt they give someone so much power without some kind of safety word or such like that would shut 'em down as part of the pact.

So :vaarsuvius: can't get ultimate power from the devils. Presumably s/he is smart enough to know that.

For that matter, even the gods themselves don't seem to have ultimate arcane power. Thor doesn't utterly dominate Loki, and the 12 gods collectively are a match for Thor and Odin. So no individual god in OOTSverse can offer ultimate arcane power.

Possibly all the gods working together could make V the most powerful elf magic user EVAH or ever will be -- maybe even promote hir into the pantheon as god(dess) of magic -- but even this isn't ultimate arcane power. As god(dess) of magic, V would be the most powerful *arcane* source in the world, s/he will still only be one god among many in a pantheon. By virtue of the portfolio, there will still come times when V is *not powerful enough*.

The only way I can see to Ultimate Arcane Power is to use the Snarl to kill all the other gods utterly, rise as a god him/herself, and assume their portfolios.

Or am I reading too much into this ?

So I guess this is my question: How could V reasonably achieve 'ultimate arcane power' under 3.5 mechanics, and exactly what does UAP mean, anyway?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't believe that V-man is so feeble minded that he would let some puny devils to bully/order him around, even if that would let him attain ULTIMATE ARCANE POWA. And I don't think that he would turn into ULTIMATE EVIL!!! just to get endless arcane might. That's the way of cowards. And V-man is not a Spathi.

[pendell]

I cannot let such insults to my beloved Spathi pass. I challenge you to a Frungy match!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thant]

Alright Captain Pendell have it your way - challenge accepted. The C.S.S Procyon starcrystal will warp in at Epsilon Gruis (as a part of Chenjesu Cultural Exchange fleet) to meet your request and participate in Frungy Intergalactic Championship on your beloved Spathiwa. You have been warned:smallwink: hehe, took me a bit time to remember all that:smalltongue: Ahh, the good old days...

[TengYt]

It could just be V will somehow get really high Epic levels.

[Radar]

Well, if V becomes like a god(dess) on earth, then that pretty much ends the plot. All V would have to do is go to Xykon and raze him and his army, then go the Snarl and kill it and it'd be over in 15 strips.

I think what V's trying to do is get as much spells as possible so that he can be more powerful than any other elf. He does, afterall, have loyalty to his elvish gods, so why would V be trying to overmatch it?
Snarl is said to be more powerful then gods themself - it wiped western pantheon like it was nothing. No god has the power, to kill Snarl - it can be only contained.

[drengnikrafe]

Have we all so soon forgotten?

There is no need for Vaarsuvius to sell his soul to Qarr when she can achieve Ultimate Arcane Power with a Doily (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)...

Maybe?

[JT Jag]

Even IF V makes a bargain for increased arcane skills, take note: Xykon killed a mage who I think was a greater level then V is now... 40-odd years ago, before Xykon even became a Lich.

[Kish]

Problem I have with that is that the devils on OOTSland don't have ultimate arcane power to give. They're trapped in the lower planes by the gods, presumably.
Uh? Why do you say that?

[Zeebiedeebie]

Have we all so soon forgotten?

There is no need for Vaarsuvius to sell his soul to Qarr when she can achieve Ultimate Arcane Power with a Doily (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)...

Maybe?
That would be ultimate COSMIC power. Maybe they're different. :amused:

[GSFB]

I believe that in the game mechanics of 3.5 D&D, "ultimate arcane power" for a PC simply means "can research and cast epic-level spells."

That's all. What is important isn't the game mechanics so much as the dramatic effect of saying ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER! while holding up a doily.

[SPoD]

Pendell: You're making a terminology mistake.

1.) "Ultimate" does not equal "infinite". It just means "the most", which is one cantrip per day more than anyone currently in existence. In other words, if the highest level arcane spellcaster alive is currently (say) 35th level, then being a 36th level wizard qualifies as Ultimate Arcane Power. We could go a step further and qualify it as being the most anyone has ever held, so that if there used to be a 47th level wizard a few centuries ago, then 48th level is UAP.

2.) Ultimate ARCANE power is not necessarily greater than ultimate DIVINE power. In fact, it is likely quite a bit weaker. It also does not need to be greater than ultimate psionic power, ultimate martial power, or ultimate nonspecified-power-source power. By including the "arcane" qualifier, it only needs to be compared to other sources of arcane power, of which there are a lot fewer. And even the gods (from Deities and Demigods) are only like 40th level wizards at best.

3.) Ultimate arcane power is not necessarily enough to do anything like killing the Snarl. It may be that such is actually impossible, or at least requires more power than the gods have...and the gods may still have far more power than whatever the best arcane caster in the world has.

[hamishspence]

and the doily based Cosmic power might lead to annoying side-effect: itty bitty living space. Or should that be Phenomenal Cosmic Power? :smallbiggrin:

[pendell]

Uh? Why do you say that?

Primarily because A) they're devils, not gods and B) don't seem
to roam the prime material plane freely. Who would prevent them from doing so, aside from the denizens of the upper planes?

We've already seen from the strips with Sabine and Nale that the lower planes are looking for anything that would tip the scales of 'cosmic struggle' in their favor. This implies a sort of war with the upper planes. Since they are active in the prime plane, it implies it is a theater of that war. Since the prime plane is not overrun with demonic/devil soldiers, I would assume something is preventing them from doing so.

I assume that it is the gods. After all, if the devils were more powerful than gods, what would stop them from throwing down the gods and becoming the gods themselves? "Respect for others" ain't exactly high on the list of Evil Core Values. And I'm pretty sure 'rule the whole damn multi-verse' is in the Evil Mission Statement.

Core Values -- mission statement -- great Scott, I *am* in Hell.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

Pendell: You're making a terminology mistake.

1.) "Ultimate" does not equal "infinite". It just means "the most", which is one cantrip per day more than anyone currently in existence.


I don't think that's the way V sees it.

Remember the discussion when s/he stopped trancing. S/he was upset because s/he was not powerful enough to save the soldiers and stop the Death Knight. S/he was instead saved by a falling zombie dragon head -- a humiliation s/he has no intention of ever experiencing again.

So I don't think UAP -- to V -- means '1 more cantrip than any other arcane caster'.

It means that the question "Am I powerful enough to do X?" is never EVER answered "no".

I also think it's unwise to draw a distinction between divine power and arcane power in this case. If there's one commonality Xykon, V, and Eugene worship at, it's at the altar of Almighty Magic. All of the three believe that 'magic' is the answer to all problems. If 'magic' is not the answer, 'more magic' certainly is.

We see that with Xykon who blasts everything to ribbons. We see it with Eugene who ignores Roy in favor of his much less experienced sister. And we see V who is determined to smash hir way through Cloister, come hell or high water.

So: V seeks power so that s/he will never again be in a position of being overmatched by anything. That will certainly lead hir into conflict with the gods, eventually, unless s/he changes course.



3.) Ultimate arcane power is not necessarily enough to do anything like killing the Snarl.


Umm .. where did I say anything about KILLING the Snarl? I was thinking more along the lines of stepping into Xykon's shoes, going through the gate ritual with Redcloak, then carefully unleashing the Snarl to kill the gods and the Dark One. With all gods dead, Vaarsuvius is then free to assume their place and rule unchallenged alone as a deity -- provided s/he is also the most powerful spellcaster alive at the time. Raistlin Majere, anyone?

Yeah, I know that comparison has been made on these forums before. But it's still apt.

Regardless; the question remains. Mechanically, how could V possibly achieve UAP? By simply leveling up? By gift from a being (if that's possible)? Or some other way?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

B) don't seem
to roam the prime material plane freely.


But again, why do you say that? Sabine doesn't seem restricted in her movements. Neither does Qarr. Nor does any fiend we've seen, that I can think of. Qarr's poker buddy was annoyed at being summoned before he ever saw who'd summoned him ("WHO DARES SUMMON--"), not delighted to be suddenly "free" on the Prime Material Plane.

There is, if no indication that Rich uses the Blood War, also no indication that he doesn't. If he does, Sabine's bosses are concerned about the war with whichever fiendish side she isn't on, not with killing the gods; and their primary battleground is Hades (or whatever Rich's Neutral Evil plane is called).

[SPoD]

I don't think that's the way V sees it.

Remember the discussion when s/he stopped trancing. S/he was upset because s/he was not powerful enough to save the soldiers and stop the Death Knight. S/he was instead saved by a falling zombie dragon head -- a humiliation s/he has no intention of ever experiencing again.

So I don't think UAP -- to V -- means '1 more cantrip than any other arcane caster'.

It means that the question "Am I powerful enough to do X?" is never EVER answered "no".


It doesn't matter one whit how Vaarsuvius sees it. It matters how the Oracle chose to answer it. The sort of power you are referring to has no guarantee of being actually possible in the OOTS world, much less guaranteed to occur by the Oracle's prophecy. So wondering whether or not the imp can provide it is irrelevant. All that matters is, can he provide something that the Oracle could accurately interpret as being "ultimate arcane power"?

In other words, regardless of what V's intentions were in asking, the exact phrase he/she used is all that needs to be fulfilled for the story to hold together. We've already seen that the word choices used affect the prophecy results.

For all we know, if V had asked, "How will I get infinite arcane power?" the answer would have been, "You don't."

[drengnikrafe]

and the doily based Cosmic power might lead to annoying side-effect: itty bitty living space. Or should that be Phenomenal Cosmic Power? :smallbiggrin:

How... how did I never think of this?
That's brilliant, if slightly changed....

[Dire Platypus]

You're assuming 'ultimate arcane powah' is stronger than the divine powers of a god/goddess... I mean, I always thought V would be a kickass wizard, but just a wizard, after all.Not a world-destroying god-killer.That's the Snarl, by the way :smallsmile:

[Warren Dew]

I think that a full wish might be considered "ultimate arcane power", and that Qarr might be able to provide it.

[Threeshades]

You're assuming 'ultimate arcane powah' is stronger than the divine powers of a god/goddess... I mean, I always thought V would be a kickass wizard, but just a wizard, after all.Not a world-destroying god-killer.That's the Snarl, by the way :smallsmile:

Oh my god! It all makes sense now

Major spoilers!!!
V is the Snarl!!! :smalleek:
:smallamused: