PDA

View Full Version : 3.5 compatible greek/roman equipment



KevLar
2008-10-10, 08:45 AM
The setting: We're organizing a new game, set in 2nd century BC Greece, when Rome (still a Republic) is expanding east. It will be a fantasy game (the myths are real etc) in a historical background. We were bursting with ideas about plot and encounters and whatnot, and at some point started to look into equipment. And hell broke loose.

The problem: Since this is NOT supposed to be a historically accurate game, the most sensible thing we could do was go with standard PHB weapons and simply remove completely irrelevant things like rapiers and dwarven urgoshes. Sadly, that didn't happen. Endless hours have been lost in assigning stats to the gladius and the xiphos, arguing about weather persian weapons should be exotic or not, accessing Wikipedia every 2 minutes, and finding equivalents to D&D weapons and armors. While I admit that such research is indeed fun, at this rate we'll never get to play the damn game.

The request: Someone, somewhere, must have gone through this before. Can anyone help me find a book or homebrew or something that contains equipment of (roughly) this era, with ready to use 3.5 stats? I can settle for Roman Empire instead of Roman Republic or for Classical Greece instead of Hellenistic Greece, we can tweak stuff from there. And if someone points me to a web page with a user-friendly table like this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponDescriptions), I'll give him (or her) a really giant cookie.

Failing that... which weapons would you keep from that table and which ones would you remove? Renaming and refluffing is allowed and expected, for example kukris and scimitars would be pretty much in, since rounded blades were very common (usually straight (http://www.lyberty.com/blog/2007/03-mar/xiphos_recreation1.jpg)in Greece and curved (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopis) farther east).

Malfunctioned
2008-10-10, 08:59 AM
The Arms and Equipment Guide has a large table in it which shows which weapons can be subsituted for other in other cultures, so the gladius would have the stats of a short sword, a trident would be a fuxina and a guantlet would be cestus. The only problem I can think of with this is that itt's in a 3rd edition not 3.5 book.

BobVosh
2008-10-10, 09:01 AM
Q1: How would having weapons not typical to the true historical Greece matter in the game?
A1: It wouldn't. Don't bother change it.

snoopy13a
2008-10-10, 09:03 AM
Basically, a keep it simple approach:

Gladius and Hoplite sword sword=short sword

Hoplon and Legionnairre shields = Large Shields

Armor= Breastplate.

Javelins for peltasts, veilties, calvary and Legionarres (Each sword carrying Legionarrie carries a few javelins to throw before entering battle).

Calvary would also have breastplates (perhaps masterwork as they are upper-class), short swords and small shields.

The only issue is the thrusting spear. Greek Hoplites and some Roman infantry (triarri) fought with thrusting spear and shield. Unfortunately, the only one-handed thrusting spear is the shortspear. I suppose one would have to make do with that.

Persians would have light armor, let's go with Padded, and how about either scimitars or spears for them. Persian officers would be equipped the same as calvary, being mounted with masterwork breastplates, javelins, short swords, and shields.

Macedonian infantry (silver shields) would have breastplates, longspears, and bucklers with a shortsword backup.

Ragabash
2008-10-10, 09:03 AM
The books Eternal Rome and Trojan War from the Green Ronin Mythic Vistas series are both good sources, not only for weapons but for some advice on how to run societies of that day and age. Eternal Rome has plenty of notes on Greece as well, and covers the span of time from the early republic to the late empire. Well worth it if you can find a copy.

JBento
2008-10-10, 09:03 AM
I know the gladius off the top of my head: it's a short sword. They're both small blades, longer than a dagger, and designed for piercing.

KevLar
2008-10-10, 09:16 AM
Yes, I am perfectly aware that what we're doing in meaningless and a waste of time :smalltongue:, but still.

The main goal here isn't to stat the hoplite. It's to be able to tell what kind of weapons a PC can choose, and what weapons he can't.

For example, are maces in? Greatswords? Greataxes? Spiked chains? Flails? Strictly speaking, I'd say no to all of the above, but since we'd like some variety of options for the player, we could look the other way if there's at least something similar around that period.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-10, 09:18 AM
I know the gladius off the top of my head: it's a short sword. They're both small blades, longer than a dagger, and designed for piercing.

In fact, the short sword is a gladius by definition (a short stabbing sword), and there's actually a dearth of other examples. (I guess the katzbalger is one.)


I can't believe this is that big of an issue, though.

One-handed spears are shortspears.

Long one-handed thrusting-and-slashing swords are longswords.

One-handed chopping swords are scimitars.

Shorter swords are short swords.

etc.

snoopy13a
2008-10-10, 09:27 AM
Yes, I am perfectly aware that what we're doing in meaningless and a waste of time :smalltongue:, but still.

The main goal here isn't to stat the hoplite. It's to be able to tell what kind of weapons a PC can choose, and what weapons he can't.

For example, are maces in? Greatswords? Greataxes? Spiked chains? Flails? Strictly speaking, I'd say no to all of the above, but since we'd like some variety of options for the player, we could look the other way if there's at least something similar around that period.

Ok,

I'd suggest taking out longbows, crossbows, rapiers, lances (they didn't have stirrups back then which would also prevent mounted charges) and most of the two-handed trip weapons such as halberds, guisarmes (as they were designed to unseat knights). However, maces, clubs, greatswords, greataxes, should be in although most of them would probably only be used by barbarians or gladiators. I guess the spiked chain could be in.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-10, 09:39 AM
I guess the spiked chain could be in.No. It doesn't fit in standard D&D, it certainly doesn't fit in ancient Greece. Replace it with the chain, an non-finessable bludgeoning weapon that deals 1d10 damage with the standard chain stats.

Also, get rid of Heavy Armor.

Spiryt
2008-10-10, 10:03 AM
Well, since D&D doesn't show differences between weapons in any realistic of historical way, I don't see much problem.

If player really want a greatsword, let him just hold dacian falx. It can be also desribed as falchion in game terms certainly, but don't see a problem with g sword too.

About rapiers, a curiosity - actually celtic "rapier like" swords have been found. Of course, they didn't have all that developed guard and other qualities of true rapier, but slender, pointy blades without cutting edge to speak off. So for purposes of D&D it could be rapier.

Celtic "rapier" (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1586)

Zephyros
2008-10-10, 10:13 AM
Well there is a book that did exactly what you need. Its name was Ζωντανα Έπη , which-simplified- means Alive Epic Stories. Your problem will be that it is actually written in greek, had a really poor welcome from the greek rpg community (why?O WHY?) and went out of print. :smallfrown:

DemetriX
2008-11-07, 06:20 PM
You can homebrew Longspears or other long weapons with a very big reach and name them Sarissa, the weapon that Macedonian armies used. Well, it was very very long (7 metres if I can remember correctly), and very heavy (around 20 kg !). Having a D&D setting in an ancient setting is truly a good idea and I would be very grateful to help with the project (as I am from Greece, too) anyway I can (possibly with culture stuff).

A nice idea just occurred to me! :
PCs are Greeks or Slaves from any nation they want (or children of slaves -> better) and find themselves in a Greece, economically and politically destroyed by the civil wars and just before the country is conquered by Rome. While under Roman oppression, when one day after the PCs are found together in a hunt or something, a mysterious man wearing black robes tells them to go to a certain place, a certain time, after doing a certain thing (like killing a weak noble just to prove their trustworthiness). This man belonged to a secret cult and PCs are initiates ready to join it after some "tests". There was a ceremony in Ancient Greece called "Ελευσήνια Μυστήρια" which was the first step to enter a top-secret cult (if I remember correctly). PCs soon get sabotage or assassination missions and when they have grown in level, the DM may allow them or make them go to another place (or just try :P). Of course, since it won't follow any historic events, the game may have tons of weird monsters (there are many monsters in monster manuals which resemble mythical greek monsters) or epic battles between fantasy nations and armies. Maybe an invasion from another plane or a betrayal among the Pantheon make a good story for the campaign.

Good luck guys.

Matthew
2008-11-07, 06:52 PM
I'd suggest taking out longbows, crossbows, rapiers, lances (they didn't have stirrups back then which would also prevent mounted charges) and most of the two-handed trip weapons such as halberds, guisarmes (as they were designed to unseat knights).

You don't actually need stirrups to deliver an effective mounted charge. The Great Stirrup Controversy has largely re-evaluated the stirrup as a technological innovation and reascribed it a more gradual benefit. The heavy cavalry of Alexander the Great is as likely to have delivered a charge as a medieval knight (though with the two handed kontos, rather than the couched lance).

I think you would have a hard job showing that halberds and guisarmes were intended for dismounting knights, though the increase in two handed weapons may have been a response to an increase in the frequency of body armour on the battlefield.

Similarly, very thin "rapier like" swords have been found at ancient Greek burial sites, which you may or may not wish to use the rapier statistics for. Crossbows appear to have been known to the Romans, but the Manuballista is a source of some controversy.

Whilst the Welsh/English long bow would not be evident in an ancient context, bows that were very long are described by Herodotus amongst the armies of the Persian Great Kings, so I would not be too quick to discount a "long bow" of some sort either.

From what I have read of Green Ronin's Mythic Vistas, like Ragabash, I would also be willing to recommend them.

I highly recommend making spears and long spears one handed weapons for fighters/warriors or somesuch thing, there have been many threads here over the years about doing so for D20/3e.

Maces, great axes, and flails should all be "in", but not as the usual implements of war (or rather the public face).



Failing that... which weapons would you keep from that table and which ones would you remove? Renaming and refluffing is allowed and expected, for example kukris and scimitars would be pretty much in, since rounded blades were very common (usually straight (http://www.lyberty.com/blog/2007/03-mar/xiphos_recreation1.jpg)in Greece and curved (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopis) farther east).

Not an untypical misconception, but a misconception nonetheless. Xenophon actually recommends the falcata/kopis/sabre for Greek cavalry and the xiphos for infantry. The traditional weapon of the Persians, the acinaces, was similarly straight bladed.

One should also be aware that the gladius is not a "short stabbing sword", but merely a "sword". The short Roman sword (often referred to as the gladius, or perhaps the semi spatha) were perfectly suited for cutting, but a couple of surviving sources suggest that the Romans themselves were taught to thrust in preference to cutting. This is not, however, particularly strongly reflected in the visual evidence where the "heroic cut" is very often in evidence, and one of the sources (Vegetius) is writing in a period, by his own admission, dominated by the cut (or chop, really).

Prometheus
2008-11-07, 08:05 PM
The idea that I am gathering is that almost every weapon was available somewhere, but not every weapon was available anywhere. It wouldn't be such a bad idea to have a world that reflected this. You might want to make an exception for Fighters, but everyone else should just have to deal.

I don't think it violates and copyright to give you this short blurb from Arms and Equipment (someone ask me to take it down if it does), since it's what you could get perusing a single page at the library and it's 3.0 material. Arms and Equipment separates weapons into three categories: Common, Uncommon, Not usually found. Here's the breakdown for Bronze Age and the other historical names:
Common:
battleaxe (Ch'iang, ch-i fu, chi, chien, fu, i huang, liu [China], tungi [India], masakari, ono [Japan], dao [Nepal]),
composite shortbow (Gong jian [China], yumi [Japan]),
club (Shillelagh [Ireland], muton [Philippines],
dagger (Everywhere by a different name-pugio in Rome)
dart (Uchi-ne [Japan], plumbatum [Rome]),
greataxe,
greatclub (Chang bang [China], gada [India], tetsubo [Japan]),
handaxe (Bhuj, piso tonkeng, tabar [India], kapak [Indonesia]),
javelin (Mau [China], nage-yari [Japan], pilum [Rome], jarid [Turkey]),
light lance,
light/heavy mace (Suan tou fung [China], gada [Indonesia]),
longbow,
longspear (Craisech [Celt], mao, qiang [China], ahlspiess [German/Swiss], sarissa [Greece], lembing [Malaysia]),
longsword (Jian, tau-kien [China], gum [Korea], spatha [Rome]),
net (Jaculum [Rome]),
shortbow,
shortspear (Yari [Japan], hasta [Rome]),
short sword (Duan jian [China], katzbalger [Germany], choora, zafar takieh [India], kris, pendang [Indonesia], cinquedea [Italy], dan sang gum [Korea], barong [Philippines], drusus*, gladius [Rome]),
sickle,
spiked gauntlet (spiked cestus [Rome]),
throwing axe (Francisca [Celt]),
trident (san cha, tiger lance [China], magari yari [Japan], fuxina [Rome]),
warhammer (Chui [China], dai tsuchi [Japan]),
whip (pi bian [China])
*drusus is a masterwork-only version of the short sword.
Uncommon:
heavy/light flail,
kama (Lian [China], Badik [Indonesia]),
nunchaku,
Not usually found:
crossbows of any type, bastard sword, dire flail, falchion, glaive, greatsword, guisarme, halberd, heavy lance, light hammer, light/heavy pick, longbow, lucerne hammer, punching dagger, ranseur, scimitar, scythe, siangham, sling, spiked chain,
Obviously, some of the more knowledgeable posters have information that contradicts or expands this, but it might be a good starting point.

It also advises that weapons should take an attack/damage penalties and reduced hp/hardness. I say wave this, because it makes physical fighters' lives harder without doing the same for mages (unless you rule less magic was known at the time).

Lord Mancow
2008-11-07, 11:04 PM
For armour you could probably just use the stats for banded mail and rename it Lorica segmentata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorica_segmentata) which was what the Roman Legionaries used later on after a chainmail. (http://www.aurorahistoryboutique.com/R001018.htm)

ashmanonar
2008-11-07, 11:06 PM
The setting: We're organizing a new game, set in 2nd century BC Greece, when Rome (still a Republic) is expanding east. It will be a fantasy game (the myths are real etc) in a historical background. We were bursting with ideas about plot and encounters and whatnot, and at some point started to look into equipment. And hell broke loose.

The problem: Since this is NOT supposed to be a historically accurate game, the most sensible thing we could do was go with standard PHB weapons and simply remove completely irrelevant things like rapiers and dwarven urgoshes. Sadly, that didn't happen. Endless hours have been lost in assigning stats to the gladius and the xiphos, arguing about weather persian weapons should be exotic or not, accessing Wikipedia every 2 minutes, and finding equivalents to D&D weapons and armors. While I admit that such research is indeed fun, at this rate we'll never get to play the damn game.

The request: Someone, somewhere, must have gone through this before. Can anyone help me find a book or homebrew or something that contains equipment of (roughly) this era, with ready to use 3.5 stats? I can settle for Roman Empire instead of Roman Republic or for Classical Greece instead of Hellenistic Greece, we can tweak stuff from there. And if someone points me to a web page with a user-friendly table like this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponDescriptions), I'll give him (or her) a really giant cookie.

Failing that... which weapons would you keep from that table and which ones would you remove? Renaming and refluffing is allowed and expected, for example kukris and scimitars would be pretty much in, since rounded blades were very common (usually straight (http://www.lyberty.com/blog/2007/03-mar/xiphos_recreation1.jpg)in Greece and curved (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopis) farther east).

If you can find a Player's Guide to Arcanis, it will have many of the things you're looking for. Arcanis is a game world built to resemble ancient Rome.

Matthew
2008-11-08, 10:16 AM
For armour you could probably just use the stats for banded mail and rename it Lorica segmentata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorica_segmentata) which was what the Roman Legionaries used later on after a chainmail. (http://www.aurorahistoryboutique.com/R001018.htm)

Possibly, but I think that would probably be a bad idea, I think. Technically, banded mail is a more complete armour than lorica segmentata, which isn't really much more effective than lorica hamata (more of a mail shirt than mail armour) or lorica squamata (scale armour).

I think Mythic Vistas has a good take on this, but I have forgotten what it was! The thing to keep in mind is that mail, scale and laminate armours were used fairly interchangably by the Romans, none ever actually replaced the other, though the visual evidence suggests that lorica segmentata was more usual for the legions than lorica hamata (with the exceptions of the centurions and mounted legionaries).

Lorica segmentata first appears towards the end of the first century BC and pretty much disappears in the third century AD. Nobody knows why, though a few theories have been proposed.