[4e] Poisoned weapons attack bonus

[Dentarthur]

One of my players has pissed off the local thieves' guild, and I'm sending some assassins after him. I'm using an 8th-level rogue with a crossbow, and a Doppelganger Assassin armed with a +1 dagger, which has a dose of Stormclaw Scorpion Poison applied to it.

In drawing up the stats, the attack bonus for the poison effect - +5 vs Fort - seems a bit low. Would it be fair to add 1/2 the assassin's level to the poison attack, making it +9 vs Fort?

The character is a level 2 staff-wizard with ungodly stats (he rolled two 18s, racial'd to 20s). I'm pretty sure I can get him alone for the encounter. If he dies, he had it coming to him, but I don't want to cheat to make it happen.

[Awesomologist]

Just send a Tiefling Darkblade (MM 250). He's got all the math figured out. You can even give him a Hat of Disguise (Adventure's Vault 142, lvl 10 Magic Item). And so if for whatever reason the party actually defeats these two assailants (or just the tiefling) they get a sick magic item.

[Moff Chumley]

Roll the dye. Decide how much you like him. Then decide if it's a hit or miss. :smallamused:

[Oracle_Hunter]

So I'll second the Tiefling Duskblade (they are excellent assassins) but why are you using the Stormclaw Poison? Deathjump is a Lv 5 poison too and it hits on a +8 Fort. If you're looking for the immobilization effect though, go with Carrion Crawler Brain Juice (+8 Fort, 5 damage & slow > Immobilize > Stun).

Against a Wizard, I'd be tempted to give 'em Drow Poison to see if they get lucky (Fort +13, 'cause it's a level 10 poison). Immobile Wizards are still a big threat, but -2 to hit, Weakness, and Unconsciousness will stop most anyone. :smallbiggrin:

[Worira]

Wait, you're attacking a level 2 with a level 8? Why not just say "oddly precise rocks fall, wizard dies"?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Wait, you're attacking a level 2 with a level 8? Why not just say "oddly precise rocks fall, wizard dies"?

Huh, you are of course correct. A level 2 Wizard will probably die from the Sneak Attack from the Crossbow alone, and a +4 against a max Fort of, what, 15, is plenty!

Sir, this is overkill. No thieves' guild is going to send one of their top assassins to knock over a level 2 adventurer. Maybe they'd send thugs to beat him up (a squad of Human Bandits) or something, but if I were the wizard, I'd cry foul at a level 8 Rogue and a Doppleganger Assassin!

[FoE]

I think the point is to drop a rock on him.

Wouldn't a less drastic solution is just to get some thugs to beat the crap out of him?

[Oracle_Hunter]

I think the point is to drop a rock on him.

Wouldn't a less drastic solution is just to get some thugs to beat the crap out of him?

Right. If you must drop rocks on your PCs, you have to do it right. If you're too heavy handed (and a LV 8 Rogue Template vs. a LV 2 Wizard is just that) then your players are going to smell a rat and be as ticked at you as if you had just pulled a But Thou Must (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButThouMust) on them.

Thugs are the right option here, or you can send the Rogue alone while the character sleeps.

With the Rogue, you have him sneak into the wizard's room while he's asleep and leave him a "message" - like a dagger in the headboard of his bed. That'll be enough to make him paranoid, and even if he wakes up, he's not going to be able to kill the Rogue without some real luck (e.g. the Sleep spell).

Thugs are much more direct - just wait for the wizard to be wandering somewhere alone and have him get grabbed and dragged into an alley for a good, old fashioned mugging. Rob him of his gold and beat him good. If you're feeling generous, you can have him be picked up by the Watch before urchins strip him of his clothes :smallamused:

[Tsotha-lanti]

There's no way to "drop rocks" right.

Bad DM. No chow tonight.

(How is a Wizard with two base 18s a problem anyway? Only Int matters for Wizards, and they'll get that to base 18 even on point-buy, since they only need one other stat.)

[Oracle_Hunter]

(How is a Wizard with two base 18s a problem anyway? Only Int matters for Wizards, and they'll get that to base 18 even on point-buy, since they only need one other stat.)

You forget their Implement Stat. A LV 2 Staff Wizard with 20 CON may be very irritating ("okay, he hit you with his Encounter power" "oh? Did he hit me if I add +5 to my AC?" "*grumble* no").

Re: Rocks Fall
There may be no good way to vindictively off one of your PCs, but there are good ways to instruct foolhardy players about the hazards they are taking. A LV 2 Wizard should not casually irritate city-sized Thieves' Guilds, and a lesson may be needed to show him why.

Still, you don't spank the baby with an axe, which is what the OP suggested.

[Dentarthur]

(How is a Wizard with two base 18s a problem anyway?) Not a problem, just a side note. 20 Dex and Int, and I think 16-17 Con. Certainly more than a match for anyone of his level, which is why I'm aiming high.


No thieves' guild is going to send one of their top assassins to knock over a level 2 adventurer. That all depends on exactly whom he pissed off. :smallamused:


if I were the wizard, I'd cry foul at a level 8 Rogue and a Doppleganger Assassin! Hm, I suppose it is overkill after all. I'm a new DM, the players have had a pretty easy time so far, and I'm starting to overcompensate.


There may be no good way to vindictively off one of your PCs, but there are good ways to instruct foolhardy players about the hazards they are taking. Yeah, exactly what I was aiming for. But a softer approach can work, as this is the first big mistake the character's made. I'll see if I can leave a "message" -- not in his sleep, as he's an Eladrin, but maybe when he's out of the room or something. I'll send in a level 4 rogue if it comes to a fight; he can beat that, but if he gets cocky then things will get stickier.

I don't think I'll add 1/2 level to poison attacks though. Best I can tell, RAW don't do that.

[Zeful]

I'd keep it the Lv 8 Rogue. And if the wizard's an Eladrin so much the better, max out Dex and skill focus Stealth. Then have the Rogue calmly explain from the shadows of the room why it's a bad idea to mess with the wrong sort of people. To add to it, I'd have the Rogue seductively drag a dagger across his skin, leaving no mark of any kind just for the added atmosphere.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Yeah, exactly what I was aiming for. But a softer approach can work, as this is the first big mistake the character's made. I'll see if I can leave a "message" -- not in his sleep, as he's an Eladrin, but maybe when he's out of the room or something. I'll send in a level 4 rogue if it comes to a fight; he can beat that, but if he gets cocky then things will get stickier.

I don't think I'll add 1/2 level to poison attacks though. Best I can tell, RAW don't do that.

Hmm, yes. Depending on the flavor of your Guild there are a few ways to deal with this:

- Mafia Style: Send a non-combatant (shyster, scribe... someone obviously non-threatening) to inform the Eladrin he has offended the local "business association" and suggest that he make reparations, or there will be trouble. It the shyster is threatened or is refused payment, he will leave... but toughs will arrive in force later. Best to do in the open - like the Inn's common room.

- Gangster Style: Send a squad of tough guys to the Inn and demand to "speak" with the Eladrin. If the Innkeep refuses (for some reason) they'll start breaking things, so he'd better send them up the the Eladrin's room, with a spare key. If the Eladrin is out, they'll wait... and not pay for anything. The Eladrin might get beaten up or he may not, but the Innkeeper is not going to want him in the Inn anymore!

- Assassin Style: Send a lone member in the night to stalk & surprise the Eladrin when he's alone. Violence may or may not be done, but the Eladrin should be informed "we know where you live, and we can finish this anytime we want."

So, some unsolicited advice. Hope you like it :smallbiggrin:

[erikun]

not in his sleep, as he's an Eladrin, but maybe when he's out of the room or something. I'll send in a level 4 rogue if it comes to a fight; he can beat that, but if he gets cocky then things will get stickier.
What is his passive perception check? It's going to be 12-13 for most wizards, unless he's trained.

A "good" (ie. 20 Dex) lv.4 rogue trained in stealth has a +12 modifier to moving around silently, even if he is in the same room as the Eladrin. You don't fumble skill checks, so unless the rogue actually tries touching the Eladrin, he won't be noticed. And I think the wizard will get the idea when he wakes up and his robe is pinned to the floor with daggers. :smallamused:

[Krelon]

Umm .. since it is a guild of thieves he pissed off, why not steal a few things when he is in town?

His money for starters.
His items to make it hurt.
His underwear while he is sleeping to make a point.

It can also make for interesting roleplaying if you send in trickster thieves. Just mix them with regular townsfolk to give him a chance to hurt some innocent NPC and send the guards.

[MartinHarper]

Not a problem, just a side note. 20 Dex and Int, and I think 16-17 Con. Certainly more than a match for anyone of his level, which is why I'm aiming high.

So before racial that's +4, +4, and +3, and 41-44 points by pointbuy. You should consider adjusting his stats downwards, per PHB pg18. You could do this out-of-game, or you could have your thieves guild slip something in his water or in his bloodstream that permanently reduces his Dex and Con by two points.

[Dentarthur]

Umm .. since it is a guild of thieves he pissed off, why not steal a few things when he is in town?

His money for starters.
His items to make it hurt.
His underwear while he is sleeping to make a point.
Er, my bad. It's more a general "sneaky guys" guild than specifically thieves. Assassins, spies, things like that. They have some thiefy-types but are more a professional-for-hire organization. I like the "steal his underwear" bit, that's hilarious; but it'll be hard to pull off on someone that doesn't sleep.


Just mix them with regular townsfolk to give him a chance to hurt some innocent NPC and send the guards.
That would be quite effective. This guy worships the Raven Queen, and he's not the type to care about the death of innocents. I'll consider this.


So before racial that's +4, +4, and +3, and 41-44 points by pointbuy. You should consider adjusting his stats downwards, per PHB pg18. You could do this out-of-game, or you could have your thieves guild slip something in his water or in his bloodstream that permanently reduces his Dex and Con by two points.
I told the players I'd let them either keep what they rolled or switch to point-buy, and I'm sticking to it. I don't really believe high stats can break the game; if it comes down to it, I'll just jack up the badguys' stats too. And in any case, there's nothing in 4e that affects a player's stats, permanently or no.

[FoE]

Maybe your punishment doesn't have to be lethal. Have your assassin take a finger or an ear; it won't affect the wizard's playability, but it should be jarring enough for the player not to screw with the guild anymore and it might add a bit of depth to the PC.