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Talya
2008-10-11, 10:32 AM
I've never paid much attention to this class...it seemed conceptually to be just like a non-magical paladin. I was reading it today, though, and i find it intriguing.

What are some neat ways to optimize it?

I'm thinking any Knight should take the Wild Cohort feat, if they plan to be mounted a lot. Any other suggestions? (Preemptive: No, not looking for "Crusader is better!")

Edit: In line with the above, I actually really like its capstone level 20 ability, and would prefer to avoid PrCs in said optimization, although I am also curious about how well it combines in Gestalt.

Roderick_BR
2008-10-11, 11:04 AM
We had some topis about it once. The best thing is to pump up on AC/miss chance, and increase charisma along constitution and strength. Once you get the challenge ability, you pretty much become what the paladin and fighter are in 4E, the literal meat shield.
He's good both at defending the casters and archers, and waddling into battle to give flanking opportunities to his rogue buddies, due to his high resistance to damage. If you pump up his saves as well (feats, magic itens), you get something resistance like the monk, but that can still dish out damage (and slower). Using a 2hander with Power Attack is still better than a shield, even if he gets some bonuses to shield, unless you find ways to make your shields work against touch/force effects. I think there's some things on the MIC to help on it, or get some psyonic levels to get some buffs.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-11, 11:12 AM
I've never paid much attention to this class...it seemed conceptually to be just like a non-magical paladin. I was reading it today, though, and i find it intriguing.

What are some neat ways to optimize it?

I'm thinking any Knight should take the Wild Cohort feat, if they plan to be mounted a lot. Any other suggestions? (Preemptive: No, not looking for "Crusader is better!")

Edit: In line with the above, I actually really like its capstone level 20 ability, and would prefer to avoid PrCs in said optimization, although I am also curious about how well it combines in Gestalt.

Best thing: breaking your code won't make you fall; it does give a minor penalty (uses up a Knight challenge).

Overall, the Knight is a decent non-caster class.

sonofzeal
2008-10-11, 11:14 AM
Knights are at there best holding the line. They, practically uniquely among all the classes printed, actually come with some built-in Battlefield Control. USE that! A lot of people try to play BC with Fighters, or Barbarians, or other martial classes, but the Knight has an inherent advantage at it. If, like Roderick_BR, you just want to bash some heads... well, there's better choices for that. But except for the Crusader's Thicket of Blades, I can't think of any class in the game that's nearly as good at BC.

That said, you'll be challenging enemies to duels a lot, and it's good to make sure you can win.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-11, 12:27 PM
Knight 3/Crusader 2/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Dwarven Defender 10.

I am the Ultimate in Immobile Defenses. I force foes to come to me with Knight's Challenge (and my Goad feat, if I have it) while also using my Pillars of Earth Deepstone Sentinel ability to create walls of stone wherever I feel like it--potentially even making funnels that force enemies to come to me. I have nifty maneuvers, too. My only real downfall is my MAD--Str, Con, Cha.

In gestalt:

Knight 20//Scout (Riposte Variant) 3/Ranger 17. Ride your animal companion.

Chronos
2008-10-11, 01:31 PM
...while also using my Pillars of Earth Deepstone Sentinel ability to create walls of stone wherever I feel like it--potentially even making funnels that force enemies to come to me.Doesn't that just work on the square you're standing on, and recede when you move to a new square?

Fax Celestis
2008-10-11, 01:34 PM
Doesn't that just work on the square you're standing on, and recede when you move to a new square?

No, that ability makes the squares you threaten into difficult terrain--an ability which the Knight shares. The Pillars of Earth ability for the Deepstone Sentinel allows them to create, well, pillars of earth that through the ability's description are nonmagical and permanent.

Temp.
2008-10-11, 03:31 PM
Knight 3/Crusader 2/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Dwarven Defender 10.
...DS requires +10 BAB, just so you know.

Anyway, Knight optimization is pretty intuitive: You have battlefield control and tanking abilities, use them. This means Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip/Stand Still/Knockback.
Martial Study/Stance is useful for Devoted Spirit Access, which meshes well with the Knight's abilities.
The usual damage feats--Power Attack, Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, Robilar's Gambit--are as good of options as always.
If you take the AC-cranking route, Shield Specialization and Shield Ward are just about the only ways to make shields worthwhile.
Leadership is probably your best way of getting a mount, if you're interested in that sort of thing.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-11, 03:32 PM
You realize that DS requires +10 BAB?

Anyway, Knight optimization is pretty intuitive: You have battlefield control and tanking abilities, use them. This means Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip/Stand Still/Knockback.
Martial Study/Stance is useful for Devoted Spirit Access, which meshes well with the Knight's abilities.
The usual damage feats--Power Attack, Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, Robilar's Gambit--are good options.

I though I had that backwards.

So it's Knight -> Warblade/Crusader (your pick; I prefer Warblade for continued d12s) -> Dwarven Defender -> Deepstone Sentinel

Talya
2008-10-11, 03:35 PM
Knight 3/Crusader 2/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Dwarven Defender 10.

I am the Ultimate in Immobile Defenses. I force foes to come to me with Knight's Challenge (and my Goad feat, if I have it) while also using my Pillars of Earth Deepstone Sentinel ability to create walls of stone wherever I feel like it--potentially even making funnels that force enemies to come to me. I have nifty maneuvers, too. My only real downfall is my MAD--Str, Con, Cha.



I just want to say, Fax, that I was most disappointed here. Not because someone didn't read my no multiclassing qualification (I've been guilty of posting after merely skimming something before myself), but because it was you! You always have neat stuff to contribute. Not that this build isn't neat, but it didn't come up with some hitherto thought of way for me to utterly break a single-classed Knight. I'd almost expect you to be able to come up with a way to make even a monk overpowered.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-11, 04:02 PM
/me facepalms.

That'll teach me to try to do builds and work at the same time. Anyway, if you're going to monoclass Knight, here's how I'd do it:

Get a reach weapon. I like lances, and you'll see why in a moment. Get yourself a Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). You can get yourself something as simple as a horse at first level, and you can upgrade to a large viper or monitor lizard at 7th or a rhinoceros at 10th. If you can talk your DM into it, a Giant Eagle (MMI), Giant Owl (MMI), Dire Rhinoceros (FF), or Giant Raven (FrBu) are excellent choices as well.

Take Power Attack and (gasp) Monkey Grip (or Strongarm Bracers, if you can spare 6 to 9 grand). Get a large lance. Get Spirited Charge. Charge into the thick of things, decimate one foe with your initial charge, and the follow-up with making the center of the battlefield rather dangerous, as all the squares you threaten are now difficult terrain. Knight's Challenge anyone who gives you problems.

If you can, get an item that lets you cast enlarge weapon (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/compscoundrel_gallery/102062.jpg) (CScn) as a swift action--even three times a day is terrific, since it'll mean you're threatening 15' and thereby creating an even more difficult area in the middle of the battlefield.

Also if you can, get your hands on Quickspur's Ally: it's a legacy item from Weapons of Legacy, one of the better ones in the book. It works really well with mounted characters.

Anyway, the best thing I can think of is this:

Your wild cohort is a giant eagle. You ride it, wielding a large lance two-handed (this, of course, forgoes Quickspur's, but that's okay). You have Spirited Charge. If you dive you get an extra multiplier on charge damage, so Lance + Spirited Charge + Dive = *4.

And in Gestalt, Knight 20//Riposte Scout (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) 3/Ranger 17 with the CScn feat that stacks Scout and Ranger levels is incredible. Remember to go with Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense (and, if you have ToB, Martial Stance (Pearl of Black Doubt)) if you go this method, though: you'll be calling your enemies to you and then dishing out handfuls of extra damage every time you strike back. d12 HD, full BAB, full Skirmish, full Favored Enemies, full Ranger animal companion. I'd even recommend trading your Ranger casting for bonus feats every 4 levels, as per the alt class feature in CCham.

sonofzeal
2008-10-11, 04:08 PM
To break a Knight - you'll want Reach (Guisarme + armor spikes + buckler works well), Martial Study for any Devoted Spirit Maneuver (I'd do Crusader's Strike, Shield Block, or Foehammer), and Martial Stance:Thicket of Blades. Then just play Tripmonkey, boosting your Str as high as possible and keeping everyone off their feet. You'll also want classics like Stand Still for quadrupeds and things that are too large/strong to trip. Eventually you'll want to pick up a second Martial Study maneuver, but the longer you leave that off for the better. Divine Surge as your lvl15 feat is probably a good idea for +8d6 damage once per encounter.

And you'll still get that lovely capstone!

Hurlbut
2008-10-11, 06:06 PM
unless you find ways to make your shields work against touch/force effects.Like Shield Ward from PB II?

BardicDuelist
2008-10-11, 06:11 PM
Like Shield Ward from PB II?

What? Looking in the same book as the class in question for relevant feats! I thought we were talking about 3.5 and WotC.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-11, 06:18 PM
What? Looking in the same book as the class in question for relevant feats! I thought we were talking about 3.5 and WotC.

That is quite possibly the funniest thing I've read all day.

Person_Man
2008-10-12, 07:48 PM
Ask, and ye shall receive.

Basic Knight:

1st: Power Attack
2nd: Mounted Combat (bonus feat)
3rd: Improved Bull Rush (pre-req for Shock Trooper)
5th: Ride by Attack (bonus feat)
6th: Shock Trooper
9th: Leadership or Dragon Cohort (Draconomicon)
10th: Spirited Charge (bonus feat)

You still have your 12th, 15th, and 18th level feats open. You get another bonus feat at 15th level.

Sir Didymus
Strongheart Halfling Knight 10

Con > Cha > Dex > Str > Int 13 > Wis (dump): You need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. It's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance.

Strongheart Halflings lose their Save bonus and gain a bonus feat instead. It's a Forgotten Realms Race.

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (Halfling bonus feat), Mounted Combat (Knight bonus), Knock-Down, Ride By Attack (Knight bonus), Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Spirited Charge (Knight bonus). If possible, also pick up Shock Trooper ASAP. Though its not pivotal for this build, it helps a lot on your Charge attacks. You can switch out Combat Expertise->Improved Trip->Knock-Down for Stand Still, which is more efficient for battlefield control but never deals damage.

Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a pack of dogs, trained for guard duty, attack, and riding. They're cheap, fast, and also useful for disarming traps in dungeons. (Fetch the bone Lassie!) Ride one into combat, and have the others guard the campsite and act as replacements in case your main mount gets killed. An even better combination is if you have a Druid or Ranger in the party with an animal companion. At higher levels, you can take Leadership or Dragon Cohort and get something more useful, preferably something with flight.

Your combo is simple. Use Test of Mettle to draw your enemies to you. Charge through and past them repeatedly, drawing them as far away as you can from the rest of your party. Divide and conquer. Have the rest of the party gang up on whoever passed their Test of Mettle Save, and once they're dead, have them kill whoever is following you around - one at a time - vastly increasing your party's effectiveness.

Use your lance and shield together for higher AC, or use your lance two handed for Power Attack and Spirited Charge for 3(1d6+magic+[Str*1.5]+[BAB*2]) damage. If possible, use an animated shield, so that you can gain you Knight bonus to it while maximizing your damage output.

If someone tries to attack you, you get a free hit on them (lance is a reach weapon) followed by a free Trip attempt (Knock-Down). Remember, no one can charge through an occupied square, so if the person isn't killed, they become defensive terrain for you. And with Vigilante Defender, Skill Monkeys and Monks will have a hard time bypassing your defenses.

Also, its important to note that if someone under the effect of your Test of Mettle is standing 0-10 feet away from you, your next action should usually be to Withdraw or Move away at your full speed, or if possible Charge through and past them or someone else on the battlefield, ending up 70ish feet away. Don't make a Full Attack. And don't take your To-Hit down so far with Power Attack that you risk missing. This is counter intuitive, but remember that your main goal on the battlefield is to control your enemies, not engage them. If they spend every round chasing you, that's another round they're not attacking your friends. This is your true goal. Occasional massive damage from a great charge attack is just a helpful side effect.

Keep in mind that using this combo is just begging your DM to throw incorporeal (immune to Trip) enemies and/or enemies with no Int score (immune to Test of Mettle) at you. So I suggest you buy two lances: One main +4 Adamantine Lance (maximizing your chance To-Hit) for regular combat, and a secondary +1 Cold Steel Ghost Touch Lance of Disruption for when its appropriate.

Your DM will probably also mix in a large number of ranged combatants, so be sure to have a friend cast Protection from Arrows on you.

Ping Pong Pete
Goliath Knight 12 (ECL 13)
Cha > Dex > Str > Con > Int 13 > Wis (dump): Like Sir Didymus, you need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. And it's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance. But thanks to the racial bonuses, Pete doesn't need to invest in Str and Con as highly as Sir Didymus.

Feats: Power Attack, Mounted Combat (bonus), Improved Bull Rush, Ride By Attack (bonus), Combat Reflexes, Knockback (Races of Stone), Spirited Charge (bonus), Shock Trooper.

Pete has two combo's. The first copies Sir Didymus. Get on a horse, use Test of Mettle, divide and conquer. Note that your damage output will definitely be higher, because you can use a large lance, use Shock Trooper to shift the To-Hit penalty to AC, and will generally have higher Str.

The second combo revolves around Knockback. It's a feat that's limited to Large and Powerful Build races which gives you a free Bull Rush whenever you hit an enemy, adding your Power Attack bonus to it. So instead of leaving your enemies Prone, you push them back. Shock Trooper allows you to move your enemies one square to the left or right for each square you push them back. And it gives you a free Trip attempt if you can steer a Bull Rushed enemy into another enemy's square. And hilariously, all your enemies can do is get up and head right back towards you.

This build is more powerful, but it suffers from two big weaknesses. First, since goliaths are a medium race, they can generally only be mounted while outdoors. Being a small race, Sir Didymus can pretty much go anywhere on his medium mount, maintaining his mobility under almost any conditions. If you just know that you're going to be spending a lot of time indoors, then drop the Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge and pick up Iron Will and Great Fortitude instead (sigh - I wish the Knight's bonus feat list was better), and pick up Leap Attack as soon as you can.

Second, Sir Didymus is playable at every level, but Pete desperately needs lots of feats for his key second combo to work. Flaws help. But if you can't use flaws and you're playing at mid levels you have to suck it up and take 2 levels of Fighter, and accept the fact that your Knight abilities will be somewhat sub-par.

Hentai, the Knight Protector
Whatever Knight X
Cha > Dex > Str (13+)> Con > Int (10+) > Wis (dump): Basically, this Knight has three goals:

1) Get access to Standstill (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Stand_Still), Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer (Complete Arcane), Supernatural Opportunist (Tome of Magic), and Frightful Presence (Draconomicon).

2) Getting ridiculous reach. This can be accomplished a number of ways:

Play a big race (try to avoid LA)
Reach Weapon: Doubles reach.
Wildshape/Polymorph: Turn into something bigger.
Enlarge Person: +1 size.
Expansion (doesn't stack with Enlarge Person): +1 or +2 size.
Alter Self (doesn't stack with Enlarge Person or Expansion): +1 size.
Willing Deformity -> Deformity Tall (Heroes of Horror): +5 ft.
Aberration Blood -> Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness): +5 ft.
Extended Reach (req tentacle like limbs, provided by Inhuman Reach): +5 ft.
3 levels of Warshaper (Comp Warrior): +5 ft, but only with natural weapons.

Some of these options aren't a good choice for this build, but I'd though I'd put them out there anyway. But it should be relatively easy for you to get 30+ feet of reach with a moderate investment.

3) Find a way to consistently deal 40ish damage per hit - not very hard with decent Str, a two handed weapon magic weapon, etc. This will make the Reflex Saves needed to accomplish any type of movement and the Concentration checks needed to cast ridiculously hard.

Put these together with your Knight class abilities (Bulwark of Defense, Vigilant Defender, Daunting Challenge, Test of Mettle) and basically everyone within your reach will be screwed one way or another. Stand near the party Wizard or whoever needs to be protected the most, and the enemies will come to you, even without Test of Mettle.

The down side of this build is that it really doesn't come together until at least ECL 12ish, if not much higher. It lacks any offensive combo besides Fear, though you could certainly add one at high levels. And your DM is definitely going to use lots of very long range enemies against you, so be prepared.

Talya
2008-10-15, 12:22 PM
Hentai, the Knight Protector
Whatever Knight X
Cha > Dex > Str (13+)> Con > Int (10+) > Wis (dump): Basically, this Knight has three goals:

1) Get access to Standstill (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Stand_Still), Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer (Complete Arcane), Supernatural Opportunist (Tome of Magic), and Frightful Presence (Draconomicon).

2) Getting ridiculous reach. This can be accomplished a number of ways:

Play a big race (try to avoid LA)
Reach Weapon: Doubles reach.
Wildshape/Polymorph: Turn into something bigger.
Enlarge Person: +1 size.
Expansion (doesn't stack with Enlarge Person): +1 or +2 size.
Alter Self (doesn't stack with Enlarge Person or Expansion): +1 size.
Willing Deformity -> Deformity Tall (Heroes of Horror): +5 ft.
Aberration Blood -> Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness): +5 ft.
Extended Reach (req tentacle like limbs, provided by Inhuman Reach): +5 ft.
3 levels of Warshaper (Comp Warrior): +5 ft, but only with natural weapons.

Some of these options aren't a good choice for this build, but I'd though I'd put them out there anyway. But it should be relatively easy for you to get 30+ feet of reach with a moderate investment.

3) Find a way to consistently deal 40ish damage per hit - not very hard with decent Str, a two handed weapon magic weapon, etc. This will make the Reflex Saves needed to accomplish any type of movement and the Concentration checks needed to cast ridiculously hard.

Put these together with your Knight class abilities (Bulwark of Defense, Vigilant Defender, Daunting Challenge, Test of Mettle) and basically everyone within your reach will be screwed one way or another. Stand near the party Wizard or whoever needs to be protected the most, and the enemies will come to you, even without Test of Mettle.

The down side of this build is that it really doesn't come together until at least ECL 12ish, if not much higher. It lacks any offensive combo besides Fear, though you could certainly add one at high levels. And your DM is definitely going to use lots of very long range enemies against you, so be prepared.


I must say, this build is thematicly disturbing.