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View Full Version : The Blade Dancer--New Base Class, PEACH



Hootman
2008-10-11, 12:20 PM
Woohoo, my first new homebrew design since that Neutrality Domain that everyone ignored! Hopefully, more people will take note of this little idea of mine, because as far as I'm concerned, it's damn sexy.

First off, one thing: I appreciate the fact that almost everyone has read more sourcebooks than I have, but I would appreciate no one calling this class any kind of rip-off of another class, because I can bet you anything I have no idea what the class's spec's are, because I've never read about them. I don't mind comparisons, just accusations. Mostly because they're wrong--I was actually inspired watching FF:Advent Children recently, because I'm a dork like that. Anyways, ONWARD TO VICTORY!



Blade Dancer

Blade Dancers are masters of finesse, their strikes flowing fluidly from one slash to the next. Even the sparks and blood spilled seems to shimmer and sway to the unheard beat of these rhythmic warriors, who use their natural flexibility to deal mortal blows while simultaneously evading harm's wicked reach.

Adventures: A blade dancer will adventure for any reason that could drive another person, though often it involves a drive to hone their techniques on the dangers of the world, and expose themselves to other people or cultures, and to expose other people or cultures to themselves. They tend to seek out recognition for their skills, and some devote their whole life to persuing an ever greater reputation.

Characteristics: Blade dancers use multiple swords to mix heavy offense with capable defence. The most experienced and skilled dancers fight as though they are in the middle of a grand act, a show of dexterity and wit, coupled with stunning spins and weaves. Each battle could have been choreographed ahead of time and not gone off more perfectly.
----Dancers also have a good sense of how to dodge danger by the breadth of a hair, and then follow up with a devastating quick-step that can cut a crowd of foes down to size.

Alignment: Blade Dancers may be of any alignment. Evil dancers may use their techniques to get close to a target with a seductive dance, and then dispatch them and their guards in one move. Good dancers use their abilities to defend those less graceful from those who would strike them in their weakness. Chaotic dancers do so for the love of the spirit of the dance itself, while lawful blade dancers follow through complex and beautiful forms, executing each move perfectly and to exact specifications.

Religion: In general, blade dancers are not a particularly religious bunch, though they have been known to worship Corellon Larethian for his love of the arts and in respect of the natural grace of the elves. Particularly chaotic souls favor Olidammara, a smooth god with a love of parties and the finesse of the blade dancers' strikes. Others prefer Fharlanghn, seeing the god of travel as a companion on their quest for renown.

Background: Most blade dancers require a good deal of formal training to weild their swords so skillfully, whether it be in some established school or a more solitary, famous dancer who withdrew from his life of fame for a life of self-perfection. Very few are self-taught, though certain individuals have claimed that they could simply feel the "flow" of battle, as waves washing over the glimmer of their blades, and merely followed the battle's lead.

Races: Elves and halfelves are common among blade dancers, having a natural grace and minor chaotic bend that makes the dancer's life come natural to them. Humans make capable dancers as well, and halflings are some of the best and quickest in the business, making up for their lack of strength with unerring shots. Dancers are rare among gnomes, and almost unheard of amongst the gruff dwarves or half-orcs. It is almost impossible for one of the savage humanoids to adopt the dancer's life.

Other Classes: Dancer's get along famously with bards and rogues, sharing a love of music, song, dance, and tales of derring-do. Fighters respect them as capable warriors, though paladins and clerics tend to balk at their usual recklessness and consider them sources of trouble and "accidents waiting to happen." Wizards and sorcerors sometimes may complain about how the dancer tends to get right in the middle of the big spell they were trying to cast, but they are well aware that if all of their foes' attention rests on the blade dancer, then none of it's on them.

Role: A blade dancer excells when they can rush in alongside another heavy melee striker and deal out massive damage with their multiple blade strikes and crippling techniques. However, even the most skillful dancer remains unarmored, meaning that they can only take so much punishment before they must withdraw.


Game Rule Information
Blade Dancers have the following game statistics.

Abilities: Dexterity protects the unarmored dancer in combat and helps improve their particularly important Reflex saves. A greater Strength allows them to deal more debilitating blows with all of their weapon strikes. A high Charisma can also help protect them.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.


Class Skills
The blade dancer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), and Tumble (Dex). See PHB Chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.


{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|AC Bonus

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+0|Dancing Sword, Dance Tech 1/encounter, Tech: Butterfly Weave|
+0

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+0|Bonus Feat|
+0

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+1|Tech: Whirling Top|
+0

4th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1|Dance Tech 2/encounter, Uncanny Dodge|
+0

5th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1|Sword Juggler, Bonus Feat|
+1

6th|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+2|Dance Tech 3/encounter, Tech: Reverse Grip|
+1

7th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+2|Evasion|
+1

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+2|Dance Tech 4/encounter|
+1

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+3|Tech: Redirection|
+1

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+7|
+3|Dance Tech 5/encounter, Tech: Improved Butterfly Weave|
+2

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+7|
+3|Improved Uncanny Dodge|
+2

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+4|Greater Juggling, Dance Tech 6/encounter|
+2

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+4||
+2

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+4|Dance Tech 7/encounter|
+2

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+9|
+5|Improved Whirling Top|
+3

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Dance Tech 8/encounter|
+3

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5||
+3

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|Dance Tech 9/encounter|
+3

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|Juggling Mastery|
+3

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|Dance Tech 10/encounter|
+4[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the blade dancer.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Blade Dancers are proficient with the following weapons: dagger, sickle, handaxe, kukri, short sword, battleaxe, longsword, rapier, and scimitar. Blade Dancers are not proficient with any armor or shields--most of the dancer's abilities require utterly unrestricted motion. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a dancer loses all of their dancing techniques as well as their ability to juggle. A blade dancer may never use two-handed weapons for any of their techniques or sword juggling.

Dancing Sword (Ex): A dancer's skill and the force of personality expressed through their performance gives them a shield of confidence. When unarmored and unencumbered, a blade dancer adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a blade dancer gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every 5 blade dancer levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). At seventh level, the dancer's Dexterity bonus to AC is doubled.
----These bonues apply even against touch attacks or when the blade dancer is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.
----The power and fluidity of the blade dancer's strikes allow for magical energies to flow from blade to blade unhindered through the dancer. As such, all blades used by the dancer can be considered to share the same magical qualities as does one blade designated and weilded by the dancer if the dancer chooses. Once per round as a free action, the dancer may designate or redesignate a blade for all of her weapons to emulate (all weapons MUST emulate the same blade), and those emulated qualities temporarily overwrite the inherent qualities in the various weapons. Material components of a designated blade (such as cold iron or adamantine) are not emulated by the other weapons. Weapons that emulate another weapon never actually gain the magical properties of the emulation, and revert to their normal state whenever the dancer stops designating them to emulate a different blade.
----Note: For example, if the blade dancer weilds a +1 flaming longsword, a +1 icy short sword, and a +2 dagger, the three blades can function as if they had the magical properties of another weapon. The dancer can be considered to be weilding three +1 flaming weapons, OR three +1 icy weapons, OR three +2 weapons. She can also choose NOT to designate a blade, and thus keep all blades exactly as they are.

Dance Technique (Ex): Over time, a blade dancer perfects various techniques that they can employ to devastating effect in the proper conditions. Because of the delicate nature of such techniques, the dancer is limited in the number of times they can employ such abilities per encounter. At first level, and every even level after 4th, the dancer can employ their dance techniques 1 more time per encounter, to a maximum of 10 times at 20th level. These additional technique uses may be different techniques or a reuse of a previously displayed technique, as per the dancer's preference. All of the blade dancer's techniques require that she be weilding at least one weapon with which she is proficient.

Butterfly Weave (Tech) (Ex): A whipping, weaving blade punishes those who get too close to the dancer with the intent to flank. As a full round action, the blade dancer may make one melee attack each against any two foes that flank her with one another at the dancer's highest base attack bonus. The dancer also gains a +4 AC against attacks made by those two foes until the end of her next turn.

Bonus Feat: At 2nd level, a blade dancer receives Two Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat. At 5th level, a blade dancer recieves Quick Draw as a bonus feat.

Whirling Top (Tech) (Ex): Spinning like a top, the dancer lashes out at numerous foes as they close in. The dancer gains the use of the Whirlwind Attack feat until the end of her turn, even if she does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a blade dancer can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or strunk by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
----If a blade dancer already has uncanny dodge from a different class (two levels of barbarian or four levels of rogue, for instance), she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Sword Juggler (Ex): A blade dancer's greatest claim to fame is their ability to actually weild more blades than they can hold at one time by hurling their blades into the air when it is convenient or necessary, and catching them when they come back down. The dancer may now weild one more weapon than they have hands to hold by juggling their weapons with the skill and dexterity those of their class are known for. The blade dancer may make one extra melee attack during a full attack, and must use all available to her (up to her juggling limit) at least once. This extra attack is made at her full base attack bonus, and all attacks made until the beginning of the dancer's next turn are subject to a -2 penalty to hit.
----As a special part of this full attack, the dancer may actually move up to one-quarter their normal speed, rounded up. In addition, the dancer may draw and/or sheathe any or all of the weapons involved in the attack as part of the full action, but may not handle any weapons they do not attack with. The blade dancer also may not have more than one-half of the weapons she attacks with while juggling (rounded up) be one-handed, or face a cumulative -4 penalty to attack and damage rolls per extra one-handed weapon.

Reverse Grip (Tech) (Ex): The dancer grips their weapon backwards, blade running along their forearms, allowing them to draw on their instinctual defensive reflexes more naturally and efficiently, but sacrificing accuracy due to the lowered level of flexibility. The reversal of their grip on the weapons they weild is a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. All attacks the blade dancer makes while in the reversed grip pose take a -4 to hit, but the dancer gains a +6 AC against all melee attacks. Once changed, a dancer cannot switch their grips back to the standard position until at least the end of their next turn. Any dance techniques activated while the dancer is in the reverse grip pose automatically cause the dancer to revert to the standard hold before making the attack. Use of this technique does not consume any per encounter uses of a blade dancer's dance techniques.

Evasion (Ex): At 7th level and higher, a blade dancer can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save (such as a red dragon's fiery breath or a fireball), she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the dancer is unarmored and unencumbered. A helpless dancer (such as one who is unconscious or paralyzed) does not gain the benefits of evasion.

Redirection (Tech) (Ex): When a foe charges, a blade dancer may use her abilities to not only deflect the attack, but redirect it. She adds her Reflex base save modifier to her AC--if the charge attack misses, she may then force her attacker to continue on to the end of their movement in a direction of her choice. If the redirected opponent would thus be forced to enter an occupied space, they are forced to make an attack roll against the new target at the same attack bonus that they used to attack the blade dancer and are then forced to stop, regardless of whether the new attack hits or misses.
----If the charger misses, but would normally have no more movement due to the length of the charge, the dancer may make a Reflex save to force them to move 5 more feet. Otherwise, they stop where they ended the charge. This Reflex save is made opposed to the charging opponent's Reflex save. This technique consumes a per encounter usage of dance tech, and also counts as the blade dancer's attack of opportunity against a charging opponent, though the dancer is entitled to one more attack of opportunity against that opponent if the charger happens to provoke other attacks, so long as they have enough attacks of opportunity left in the round to do so. This technique cannot be used if the dancer does not have any attacks of opportunity left to make during that round.

Improved Butterfly Weave (Tech) (Ex): A blade dancer's mastery of multiple techniques allows her to improve upon an older one. This technique functions identically to Butterfly Weave (Tech) (Ex), but now the dancer may make up to two attacks each against her any two foes that flank her with one another, and she receives a bonus to each of those attacks in the form of a +4 bonus to attack rolls and +2 bonus to damage rolls. The dancer's AC bonus is increased to +8 against those two foes until the end of her next turn.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A blade dancer of 11th level or higher can no longer be flanked; she can react to opponents on opposite side of her as easily as she can react to a single attacker. This defense denys a rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
----If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character. In no way does Improved Uncanny Dodge prevent the blade dancer from using her Butterfly Weave technique.

Greater Juggling (Ex): The blade dancer can juggle even more impressively. She can now weild 2 more weapons than she has hands to hold, gains one more attack per round at her full base attack bonus, and all attacks made until the start of her next turn take a -2 penalty to hit. She must use all blades available to her (up to her juggling limit) at least once. Otherwise, this ability is like the Sword Juggler (Ex) ability.

Improved Whirling Top (Tech) (Ex): Thanks to her greater experience, now her whirling blades spin faster and bite deeper. This technique functions identically to Whirling Top (Tech) (Ex), but now all attacks are made with a +4 bonus to attack rolls, and a +4 bonus to damage rolls.

Juggling Mastery (Ex): The blade dancer has completely mastered the ability to juggle blades, astounding friend and foe alike. She can now weild 3 more weapons than she has hands to hold, gains one more attack per round at her full base attack bonus, and all attacks made until the start of her next turn take a -2 penalty to hit. She must use all blades available to her (up to her juggling limit) at least once. Otherwise, this ability is like the Sword Juggler (Ex) ability.


Half-Elven Blade Dancer Starting Package

Armor: None.
Weapons: Shortsword (1d6, crit 19-20/x2, 2lb, light, piercing)
Shortsword, off-hand (1d6, crit 19-20/x2, 2lb, light, piercing)
Dagger, sheathed (1d4, crit 19-20/x2, 1lb, light, slashing or piercing)
Note: When striking with both swords, the dancer takes a -4 penalty with her mainhand, and a -8 penalty with her offhand, because it is a light weapon. If she has a Strength bonus, add only one-half of it to her damage roll with the offhand weapon, but add the full Strength bonus to her damage roll with the mainhand weapon.
Skill Selection: Pick a number of skills equal to 4 + Int modifier.

{table=head]Skill|Ranks|Ability|Armor Check Penalty

Balance|
4|
Dex|
0

Escape Artist|
4|
Dex|
0

Intimidate|
4|
Cha|
-

Jump|
4|
Str|
0

Move Silently|
4|
Dex|
0

Perform|
4|
Cha|
-

Tumble|
4|
Dex|
0[/table]


Feat: Weapon Focus (Shortsword).

Gear: Backpack with waterskin, one day's trail rations, bedroll, sack, and flint and steel. Three torches.

Gold: 4d4.



And there you have it! Finally, complete! At least until people start reviewing and tell me I have to fix things. ^^; Anyhow, please, R&R--I could use some feedback to see if this sucker's even playable. If people want, I'll consider putting up some kind of sample build of a medium/high level, just so you can see what they're capable of for comparison purposes. I can't think of anything else at the moment, so, I guess it's up to all of you now. ONWAAAAARRRD! TO VICTORY!!!

afroakuma
2008-10-11, 12:36 PM
This is pretty interesting, and well thought-out. I think that it might actually end up underpowered compared to other warrior types, but Evasion goes a long way towards counteracting that. Instead of Dancing Blade, I would reccommend giving out a free Weapon Finesse feat - I don't see the logic in handing out Cha bonus to AC, certainly not that early on.

AstralFire
2008-10-11, 12:43 PM
A bit underpowered at first glance.


Try to give them SWP and MWP instead of just ad hoc choices. Otherwise, you greatly limit their ability to use a Prestige Class/Feat. Just throw in a few exotics that you think are necessary, if you really want.
Not enough usages per day. You could flip these to per encounter without a hiccup.
Butterfly Weave is too powerful at 1st level (free +4 AC! and a second attack at full BAB, DAMN!) and worthless by 12th. (I can get better AC with Combat Expertise and I get three iterative attacks if I'm a Fighter.)
Whirling Top is decent, though the improved version is honestly very little of an improvement. I would give them full out Whirlwind attack in the middle levels, and then something like Whirlwind as a standard at high.
Sword Juggler is simply too complicated. Allow 2H weapons or don't (perhaps in a higher level), and using that many swords basically means that this class will make you broke, or all of your swords will be underpar. You should give them Quick Draw as a bonus feat...
Does Reverse Grip grant an additional +2 against AoOs (for +6) or only +2? Also, Combat Expertise does this better.
Redirection is again, too complicated a mechanic and could bear simplification.
You give them Cha to AC, then nothing else uses Cha in the whole class, nor an AC bonus. Most will ignore it, because their AC is going to suck horribly with neither armor nor a class AC bonus.


I would dip this class for one level and get Cha to AC/Butterfly Weave, maybe 4 for TWF, Uncanny Dodge and another use of Butterfly Weave, and call it quits.

afroakuma
2008-10-11, 12:46 PM
Butterfly Attack is close to a nerfed Whirlwind Attack as it is. And yes, Reverse Grip is around the point where the word "underpowered" was flashing brightly.

I agree with AstralFire. Give both SWP and MWP.

Hootman
2008-10-11, 01:58 PM
@afroakuma: I humbly direct you to the AC Bonus of the core Monk. They add Wisdom to their AC at first level, and on top of that get a bonus every 5 levels. I was trying not to over-do it. I also considered a free Weapon Finesse, but the problem with doing that instead of Dancing Sword is that it means that the dancer's base AC maxxes at 14 for life, 15 if they are an elf or a halfling. For an "in-the-thick-of-it" class, that seemed FAR too low for them to survive more than 2 rounds, ever.

@AstralFire: 1) I considered that as well, but that meant that the name "Blade Dancer" could very quickly become a name only, and not a definition, which I was kind of going for. Nothing says a dancer cannot take MWP (what they want) as long as they are willing to use the feat. Even allowing in certain axes seemed a bit of a stretch for the feel I was going for, but they ARE bladed, and often very sharply so...and I couldn't resist the mental image.

2) As long as you know that Sword Juggling and its improvements do NOT take up a usage of Tech, then I don't see the problem. Perhaps I am not as experienced in terms of campaigning, but I don't honestly know how often even Whirling Top or Butterfly Weave could be utilized. I was originally debating whether the number of techs/day was too low, but 20/day seemed like too many. As for the per encounter suggestion, I will admit that it crossed my mind, and I dismissed it for two reasons: one, I'm biased against 4th edition as a general rule, and two, you'd get really dizzy spinning that much. Actually, two was more like preventing "Ok, instead of using my plain attacks and making things exciting by going SHING-SLICE-KAWHOOSH-SHAZING-FAWUMP and actually risking missing, I'll just Butterfly and be unhittable." It felt OVER-powered making them per encounter (but I certainly wasn't going to give it the progression of Smite Evil).

3) At first level, you can only use Butterfly Weave once per day. The +4 AC applies ONLY to foes targeted, not to any others. And the dancer has suck armor and medium HP, so they need any AC bonuses they can get. First level Barbarian = +2 hit, +2 damage, +2 HP, and a well-rolled one can maintain that for at least 6 rounds (14/15 Con), if not 8 (18 Con). Somehow I think the Barbarian outweighs the dancer here, even if they do take a -2 AC and later fatigue. By the way, Butterly Weave cannot be used against single opponents, so a Dancer vs a Barbarian or even Fighter at level 1 would be like putting a chew toy in the path of Cerberus.

Oh, and, as for your ComEx. To get better AC, you'd need to drop all of your attack rolls by 5, so at level 12, that's +7, +2, -3. Gonna need some magic weapons and a killer strength to hit with that last attack. Or you could always natch.

4) I was afraid ImpWTop wouldn't be powerful enough. I suppose I could have WTop give the use of the Whirlwind feat for that round, and since a Fighter could have that by 4th level, a 3rd level dancer using it isn't broken. Then maybe ImpWTop could get some real attack damage bonuses...

5) Adding in 2HW's was a somewhat last minute thing, so I'll be nixxing that now and adding some kind of "can't use 2HW period" clause in there somewhere. Also, they don't need Quickdraw as a bonus feat, since the juggling gives them the ability to draw and sheathe as much as is necessary until the end of the attack, and I'm not sure just handing it to them would really clear anything up.

I'm not honestly sure how to address the issue of complexity, since I can't see it. I kind of made it up, so I can understand it fine. What's complicated?

6) Only +2 against AoO. And I suppose I'll have to balance it against ComEx now to make it worthwhile; good thing this is my first draft.

7) I can try to make redirection clearer, but at the moment I'm not sure how. I shall make the attempt, however.

8) Then I can give them a class AC bonus to mirror the monk, since that's partially where the mechanical idea came from. I was honestly fine with the class being under-powered for the first draft, because then people actually have to think about how to make it better instead of complaining and yelling at me. ^^;

9) And then what, exactly? Unarmored rogue? Sorc with a dagger or two? Nothing in this class allows for the use of armor--if I didn't write that down properly somewhere, I REALLY need to fix that. Besides, if a DM lets you level dip at random, might as well make a BD 2/ Bbn 2, then you get everything you wanted, trading Rage for another Butterfly. Of course, you still can't wear armor, so you'll get obliterated thanks to that AC penalty from raging.



@afroakuna again: Yes, Butterfly weave is LIKE a nerfed Whirlwind attack...except that you get it at first level, and gain a +4 AC to the two guys flanking you, which becomes +2 after the flanking bonus. Add Improved Uncanny Dodge at 11th level, and that's a +4. Should I maybe up it to +4/+6 instead of the +2/+4 it currently is? The would improve it versus Whirlwind Attack. It's also meant for exactly TWO foes, not 4 or 6, or (Oh jeez) eight. That's what the Whirlwind Attack feat (and Whirling Top, which I need to fix) is/are for.






Wow, already some people jumping on it. Yay! Oh, and, to everyone, I'm sorry if I get all arguementative, but I'm trying to weigh people's suggestions against my desire to keep this class from getting over-powered. If I wanted a ridiculously OP windmill-of-death man, I could definitely build that and still make it look sexy--this is meant to be a base class, if I can wangle it.

afroakuma
2008-10-11, 02:03 PM
I am familiar with the monk's Wis to AC bonus. However, as AstralFire indicated, Cha has no other use for a Blade Dancer, whereas a Monk will at minimum get a Will boost from Wisdom.

The problem you describe doesn't really solve itself if Cha is added - it means a max AC of 18/19 for life.

The major design difficulty here is that early levels are overpowered in comparison to other classes, while later levels are underwhelming.

AstralFire
2008-10-11, 02:30 PM
@afroakuma: I humbly direct you to the AC Bonus of the core Monk. They add Wisdom to their AC at first level, and on top of that get a bonus every 5 levels. I was trying not to over-do it.

Trust me, that's not an issue. The monk gets a lot more benefit from Wis (Stunning Fist DCs, Will Saves) and is still considered to have a severe multiple ability dependency such that Wisdom is the lowest categorized important stat for them.


I also considered a free Weapon Finesse, but the problem with doing that instead of Dancing Sword is that it means that the dancer's base AC maxxes at 14 for life, 15 if they are an elf or a halfling. For an "in-the-thick-of-it" class, that seemed FAR too low for them to survive more than 2 rounds, ever.

18's not going to make much of a difference.


@AstralFire: 1) I considered that as well, but that meant that the name "Blade Dancer" could very quickly become a name only, and not a definition, which I was kind of going for. Nothing says a dancer cannot take MWP (what they want) as long as they are willing to use the feat. Even allowing in certain axes seemed a bit of a stretch for the feel I was going for, but they ARE bladed, and often very sharply so...and I couldn't resist the mental image.

Classes that are so specific should be Prestige Classes, not Base Classes.


2) As long as you know that Sword Juggling and its improvements do NOT take up a usage of Tech, then I don't see the problem. Perhaps I am not as experienced in terms of campaigning, but I don't honestly know how often even Whirling Top or Butterfly Weave could be utilized.

Currently, not very much since they are weak.


I was originally debating whether the number of techs/day was too low, but 20/day seemed like too many. As for the per encounter suggestion, I will admit that it crossed my mind, and I dismissed it for two reasons: one, I'm biased against 4th edition as a general rule

...

You know, that right there is almost enough to make me want to stop posting. I don't care if you dislike 4th Edition, I do not care if you dislike per day or per encounter, but disregarding a mechanic that can possibly used to better anything because of its source of origin leads to poor and close-minded design. I'll take a mechanic from FATAL if it's better than something I've got; now, granted that FATAL's mechanics consist primarily of "roll lots of d100s" that is not likely.

Also, 'per encounter' has its origins in Barbarian Rage, and was expanded upon with Tome of Battle.


and two, you'd get really dizzy spinning that much.

Currently, you can spin 10 times in one encounter over a day and not get dizzy as opposed to say, 3-5 times in one encounter. Also, as a child I loved to spin and I probably did it well over several times a day. If dizziness is a concern, then say you can only use a tech once every x rounds.


Actually, two was more like preventing "Ok, instead of using my plain attacks and making things exciting by going SHING-SLICE-KAWHOOSH-SHAZING-FAWUMP and actually risking missing, I'll just Butterfly and be unhittable." It felt OVER-powered making them per encounter (but I certainly wasn't going to give it the progression of Smite Evil).

22 AC and only taking two attacks a round! Woohoo! That's overpowered city...


3) At first level, you can only use Butterfly Weave once per day. The +4 AC applies ONLY to foes targeted, not to any others. And the dancer has suck armor and medium HP, so they need any AC bonuses they can get.

That is a separate issue, and allowing a first level ability that can be dipped in by a level 1, say, Monk or Bard to gain a huge AC boost and an extra attack is crazy.


Oh, and, as for your ComEx. To get better AC, you'd need to drop all of your attack rolls by 5, so at level 12, that's +7, +2, -3. Gonna need some magic weapons and a killer strength to hit with that last attack. Or you could always natch.

Combat Expertise does it better not because of the better armor (and your to-hit will be a LOT higher than that) but because you can switch between levels at will and use very precise amounts as necessary.


5) Adding in 2HW's was a somewhat last minute thing, so I'll be nixxing that now and adding some kind of "can't use 2HW period" clause in there somewhere. Also, they don't need Quickdraw as a bonus feat, since the juggling gives them the ability to draw and sheathe as much as is necessary until the end of the attack, and I'm not sure just handing it to them would really clear anything up.

I said they should get Quick Draw simply as a matter of sense. Anyone who can do that much juggling but cannot draw a weapon fast otherwise makes little sense.


9) And then what, exactly? Unarmored rogue? Sorc with a dagger or two?

VoP Rogue, VoP Paladin, Monk, Unarmed Swordsage, Swashbuckler, Bard->Swiftblade are all good choices.


Besides, if a DM lets you level dip at random, might as well make a BD 2/ Bbn 2, then you get everything you wanted, trading Rage for another Butterfly. Of course, you still can't wear armor, so you'll get obliterated thanks to that AC penalty from raging.

Someone may have a very good in-character reason for their level dipping. Therefore, when building a class you should build under the assumption that if someone can easily dip a few levels in your build and come out much stronger for it than someone who stayed in the class the whole time, the class needs some correction.

You'll have to address the fact that currently, your juggling swords ability requires someone to blow a LOT of extra money on weapons, worse than TWF, which is already considered to be a money hog. I would suggest something like "all swords are considered to have the effects and base enhancement bonus of one weapon of your choice from your wielded weapons."

Currently your class at 20 will hit a lot weaker than a barbarian, cost a lot more money, have a lower AC (unless he's abusing Shock Trooper), lower to-hit, no DR and less HP. His singular advantage is Evasion, which is nice, but can't carry a class.

Hootman
2008-10-11, 05:02 PM
Astral, the spinning thing was meant to be a joke. And about 4th, I was just trying to be honest with you about why I'd overlooked it, not completely ignore it as a viable option JUST because my mind associated it with 4th edition.

I've never heard of VoP (though a friend gave me a vague idea of what it is), so that would explain how I would never have accounted for it. Swordsage too, but I suspect it's similar enough to Eldritch Knight that I can get the gist. It's blatantly obvious that, since I specialize in core, my knowledge of alternate prestige classes and splat-feats is limited to non-existant.

That "all swords match one sword" idea is pretty interesting. It might be a little over-powered in the sense that one could have several blades of varying elemental or alignment properties, but that DOES certainly make them more interesting and dangerous. Also, the massive amounts of money that would be required to increase the to-hit's of those spares would be astronomical, elemental properties or no. Definitely a good call there.

_ _ _ _ _ _

Quick Draw added, because now I feel stupid for not having it in the first place.

Reverse Grip no longer relies on the count of Dance Techniques to function, and is improved and simplified.

Dance Tech's changed from per day to per encounter, because it makes more sense. Limitation [about to be] placed on Whirling Top to keep it from being abused. Nevermind that restriction, I can't think up a good way to go about it.

Butterfly Weave scaled to level by adding an Improved Version and increasing potential damage output. [Or rather, ABOUT to add an Improved Version.] Good to go.

Improved Whirling Top now more adequately lives up to it's name.

Sword Juggling and it improvements have been simplified (hopefully) and improved upon slightly.

Two handed weapons are no longer allowed.

Dancing Sword is now significantly improved.


Probably missed a few miscellaneous things. Oh well.

Mattarias, King.
2008-10-12, 01:59 AM
:smallbiggrin: Love it so far, Hootyman. Flavor is marvelous. And unarmored fighters are great. Maybe add some sweetness with Charisma? Maybe a tech that let you add CHA to hit or subtract it from your foe's AC? But I dunno, I'm based toward that stat. :smalltongue: More to come when my thoughts are more coherent. Which probably means not 3:00 AM.

AstralFire
2008-10-12, 12:45 PM
It'd probably be simpler to just keep the Juggling Blade penalties at -2 consistently. Either way, though, this is looking a lot more solid. Sorry for being harsh.

Hootman
2008-10-12, 04:05 PM
@Mattarias: Many thanks, King of the Flame. Or as you recently pointed out elsewhere, King of Those Who #&(^ Around. And you are definitely biased toward Charisma, but I'll see if I can come up with anything that actually makes sense to be powered by it.


@AstralFire: Hey, no problem. I asked for critique, and I certainly got it. I wasn't exactly on my best behavior there, so I deserved to be harshed at. Besides, your ideas were terribly helpful in the end (if by "end" I mean the "hey, I fixed it, who wants to call me awesome now? Or at least tell me what I missed?" phase).

And a constant -2, eh? So no cumulative....that's actually probably a good idea too. Sword Juggler is good, but not perfect, -2 from the extra blade. Greater is better, -1 per extra blade. Master is self-explanitory, less than -1 per extra blade. Also means he hits even MORE at 19/20th level... :smallamused: Which reminds me, just because I love to pat myself on the back, I think I'll have to build a BD20 just to see how amazing I can make it in one go.