The Order is not falling apart

[richardcory47]

For a while now I have been surprised at how many people have been posting about how they don't like where OOTS is going or that the plot isn't getting anywhere or that <insert any character> is a waste of time and keeping us from getting anywhere in the plot.

Um. Does anyone else remember the 220 strips spent in Azure city (from their imprisonment until Hinjo's junk sails away)? The original 120 spent in the dungeon of Durokan? Some 150 when Haley couldn't speak? Roy himself complains about the 38 spent on the tiny sidequest to find the Starmetal.

Order of the Stick has always moved slowly. When we only get one or two strips a week, they all seem like wastes of time; Rich's characters and his humor take precedent over concrete plot development. But, seriously, it always has been moving at this pace and it's why we have always loved it. The joy of OOTS is the joy of enjoying every single strip, ever single joke and every single new idea that the Giant has planned for us. I think many of us haven't been reading since the comic started, and getting to read a few hundred strips all at once in order to catch up has thrown us off now, as we wait and wait and wait for individual strips to come.

While it has seemed like an eternity that the party has been separated and that Roy has been stuck in heaven, it has given opportunities for character development and interactions that weren't possible in the full party. We've seen Haley try to take charge of Belkar and Elan try and figure out what to do without Roy's guidance. We've also gotten to see what has happened to the relationship between the two least charismatic members of OOTS. These new dynamics offer a fresh perspective on the characters and interactions that simply wasn't possible when the party was together. I have more respect for Haley now than ever and Elan is growing as a PC--he can actually hold his own now, which was never possible back in the early strips.

So be patient with the Giant. Treasure each strip as it comes and celebrate the fact that we have years left in which we'll get to enjoy OOTS.

[Haleyintraining]

Bravo. Well said.

[RMS Oceanic]

I disagree with the primary claim of your thread. The last 50 or so strips, in my book, are designed to specifically show that without Roy, the Order will fall apart. V's departure is the first major fracture, although cracks in the form of Haley being unable to control Belkar didn't help either. Once Roy returns, I'm sure he'll be able to reunite the order again.

[richardcory47]

I disagree with the primary claim of your thread. The last 50 or so strips, in my book, are designed to specifically show that without Roy, the Order will fall apart. V's departure is the first major fracture, although cracks in the form of Haley being unable to control Belkar didn't help either. Once Roy returns, I'm sure he'll be able to reunite the order again.

Sorry--the title of this thread referred to the comic itself, while trying to pun on the seemingly infinite threads about how "the Order falling apart." I didn't mean for it to be unclear.

[wootage]

If they don't fall apart, they shall assuredly fall together :)

[Nargrakhan]

Bah... each strip that does not feature sexy-sexy Asian goth Tsukiko is a waste of time.

Moar Tsukiko... less of everything else.

Narg has spoken. Make it so.

[Ancalagon]

The comic in the current form is surely much better storytelling than "Let's keep things as they always were" could ever be.

[Chronos]

Bah... each strip that does not feature sexy-sexy Asian goth Tsukiko is a waste of time.In that case, they're all a waste of time, because Tsukiko has never been sexy. Sexy women make guys' pulses race. The only guys Tsukiko can get interested in her don't even have pulses.

[Staven]

Ok, I can see where this is going. If it goes there, the thread will be closed. So don't let it go there.

EDIT: Wait, was that Vigilante Modding? It was unintentional.

I'm actually forming a picture in my head of the next hundred strips or so, with #700 marking Roy's resurrection. The order will reform before then. I'm not going to explain it in detail, it'd be a wall of text.

[David Argall]

In that case, they're all a waste of time, because Tsukiko has never been sexy. Sexy women make guys' pulses race. The only guys Tsukiko can get interested in her don't even have pulses.

See http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html
"Thanks for wearing a short skirt while flying."

Belkar is not exactly fussy, nor is he that good a judge about what the rest of the male population gets hot over, but it would seem she is worth looking at.
And it's the ones without pulses that Tsukiko wants interested in her. Whether those with pulses are interested is not discussed.

[Lokasenna]

I agree. Individual chapters move too slowly to really appreciate what exactly is happening, but when you read all of them in one go...

You can really enjoy what is happening to the characters. V's transition from 504 to this late update is much easier to understand now. The characters are forced to adapt to a Roy-less and hard life without his leadership, especially Elan. Character development is a good thing, although it doesn't seem like it at the time.

[chronoplasm]

I'm actually forming a picture in my head of the next hundred strips or so, with #700 marking Roy's resurrection.

Clearly, Roy is symbolic of Jesus.

He won't come back until the apocalypse.

[Krade]

I'm actually forming a picture in my head of the next hundred strips or so, with #700 marking Roy's resurrection. The order will reform before then. I'm not going to explain it in detail, it'd be a wall of text.

I had a similar prediction: Roy's resurrection will likely be the climax of the 4th book (not counting prequels). The last two books were about 180 strips, so following this pattern, we can expect to see Roy raised within the next 65 strips, followed shortly by the end of the book.

[Lupy]

Clearly, Roy is symbolic of Jesus.

He won't come back until the apocalypse.

Chronoplasm is surely the great prophet Elijah returned! :smalltongue:


I agreee with RMS Titanic though, this last chapter has been about how the individual order members don't work well together, and how they have to have Roy to stay together. I doubt that V will return to Elan and Durkon until Roy brings hem there, and while he may join Haley, she will also almost certainly kill Belkar. The Order has to have Roy.

EDIT: The quality of the comic remains high as ever, and all of this will be more easily appreciated in 100 strips when we read back, as it always has been.

[Linkavitch]

Sorry--the title of this thread referred to the comic itself, while trying to pun on the seemingly infinitesimal threads about how "the Order falling apart." I didn't mean for it to be unclear.

Nice. I actually thought, "Wait, the comic or the characters", when I saw this, so either way, it makes sense.

[Caractacus]

Sorry--the title of this thread referred to the comic itself, while trying to pun on the seemingly infinitesimal threads about how "the Order falling apart." I didn't mean for it to be unclear.

I think that the order won't fall apart permanently, but we need to see how bad it could get if we don't get Roy back. I look forward to the day we do...:smallcool:

P.S. You don't mean 'infinitesimal' as that means 'so small as to be almost negligible'. I think you just mean 'infinite number of threads'. But, whatever, you're right, there were quite a few of them, weren't there? :smallwink:

[Iball]

To OP: Well said.

I've been getting fed up with the number of topics that complain about the pace of the strip, which IMO started off back at the trial. As the OP said, it's probably because newer readers have been shocked at the change between quickly catching up through the archives, and the actual length of time between strips. Still, would have thought they'd have realised that such a reaction is common of any comic strip, and should no way be an indication of poor work on Rich's part. So yeah, well done on creating this thread. :)

[richardcory47]

P.S. You don't mean 'infinitesimal' as that means 'so small as to be almost negligible'. I think you just mean 'infinite number of threads'. But, whatever, you're right, there were quite a few of them, weren't there? :smallwink:

Thanks--though this might be a good example of why I am no longer an English major.

[chronoplasm]

Alternatively, Roy could be symbolic of Gandalf who died fighting the Balrog as Gandalf the Grey and returned as Gandalf the White.
Gandalf was also symbolic of Jesus (with the whole resurrection schtick) (though he was based on Odin) so this further reinforces the point that Roy is Jesus.
Anyone think Roy might dual-class when he comes back?

[Barachiel]

Yes the story has always moved slowly. But right now, its moving at a glacier-like pace, which I think is where many of the complaints come from.

I don't think the OOTS sucks, or that the author has lost his way. In fact, i thin in book form, we'll look back on this portion as the Empire Strikes Back of the saga. But I can't fault people for wishing things would improve either.

[Crystalkestrel]

Splitting up the party for a longer period of time than they were together worked in Lord of the Rings, and it's working in Order of the Stick.


Alternatively, Roy could be symbolic of Gandalf who died fighting the Balrog as Gandalf the Grey and returned as Gandalf the White.
Gandalf was also symbolic of Jesus (with the whole resurrection schtick) (though he was based on Odin) so this further reinforces the point that Roy is Jesus.
Anyone think Roy might dual-class when he comes back?

I had a character once who sacrificed herself in a particularly heroic fashion. The saint template (as described in the Book of Exalted Deeds) is fun.

[Page606]

Great comic Giant, best one yet!

[Barachiel]

Splitting up the party for a longer period of time than they were together worked in Lord of the Rings, and it's working in Order of the Stick.

To you perhaps, but not everyone agrees with you.

[chronoplasm]

To you perhaps, but not everyone agrees with you.

I would agree, and my vote counts double of everyone so :smalltongue:.

[Selene]

Alternatively, Roy could be symbolic of Gandalf who died fighting the Balrog as Gandalf the Grey and returned as Gandalf the White.

Roy's going to come back white?? :smalleek:

:smalltongue:

[Corwin Weber]

See http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html
"Thanks for wearing a short skirt while flying."

Belkar is not exactly fussy, nor is he that good a judge about what the rest of the male population gets hot over, but it would seem she is worth looking at.
And it's the ones without pulses that Tsukiko wants interested in her. Whether those with pulses are interested is not discussed.

Belkar does seem to have reasonably low standards..... 'worth looking at' to him doesn't necessarily mean 'attractive' in any normal sense of the word.

Let's face it. The Belkster seems to be fond of Ale Goggles.

[Scarlet Knight]

Look, I'm not saying that Giant wishes to end OOTS, but if he did, splitting the party, killing Roy, rendering Belkar unable to stab anyone, and turning Vaarsuvius evil seems like a step in the right direction.

[Cleverdan22]

Belkar does seem to have reasonably low standards..... 'worth looking at' to him doesn't necessarily mean 'attractive' in any normal sense of the word.

Let's face it. The Belkster seems to be fond of Ale Goggles.

What do you mean? Belkar is selective. He doesn't have time for the fuglies, remember? :smalltongue:

[gamerboy6000]

Well said.

[Shatteredtower]

Does anyone else remember the 220 strips spent in Azure city (from their imprisonment until Hinjo's junk sails away)?

You mean the parts in which the overarching plot was defined? The part in which a number of subplots were resolved? The part in which the party pitted itself against the forces of their chief adversary and were easily bested?

Try again.


The original 120 spent in the dungeon of Durokan?

You mean the part that fleshed out the characters, while still managing to introduce and define their primary villain, the complicating factor known as the Linear Guild (who we can fully expect to see again once the party finally start making progress toward the next two gates), and it's indicated that there is something bigger going on than was originally hinted at?

Not good enough either.


Some 150 when Haley couldn't speak?

And yet the story continued to move forward. Haley's problem did nothing to stop that.


Roy himself complains about the 38 spent on the tiny sidequest to find the Starmetal.

Which would have been more tedious to him than to the reader, who were given every indication that the party was moving toward a destiny -- or that one was moving toward them.


Order of the Stick has always moved slowly.

Ah, but it moved. These days, it's not been doing that very well at all. More effort has been spent on stalling the story, even sending it hurtling several steps backward (golem Roy being the prime example), stretching it out in a fashion that makes the party look completely unfit for the task ahead.

If events dragged out this long, but we'd seen some indication of effort to do something about the main threat, it would be fine, but they haven't. They've made no alternative efforts to find the next gate, as though the only possible means of doing so would have lain with Roy. The idea of acting against Xykon in any fashion appears to have been thrown out the window very early on.

If they'd at least made some efforts toward these things and shown no more success than we've seen now, things would be fine. As it is, they read like a major attempt at stalling. Yes, I've reread the archives, and contrary to what some claim, it still reads that way. Yes, the strip still offers a lot of humour and there has been character development, but the plot is so far off the rails that it's left the country. It's not about how long we wait between updates.


But, seriously, it always has been moving at this pace and it's why we have always loved it.

Half true. It always moved slowly, and the author has realized that this was a problem several times in the past. It's never been as bad as this, however, and the cracks show quite clearly.

This does not take away from the quality of the humour of the depth the Giant can put into his characters, but it's still a flaw in what is otherwise a quality series. I admire the fact that the elements of V's personality leading to the current breakdown were demonstrated as far back as strip #87 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html), if not earlier, but it doesn't change the fact that the story has long been about a bunch of people spinning on their thumbs.

The Giant once noted that the reason the party didn't do x was because then there'd be no story. I've been willing to accept that excuse for some time, but it simply doesn't wash here. For example, Durkon is perfectly capable of casting commune and getting answers that won't put him any further ahead until he can figure out what the next questions should be.


While it has seemed like an eternity that the party has been separated and that Roy has been stuck in heaven, it has given opportunities for character development and interactions that weren't possible in the full party.

Even if that was a given, there's no reason this has to come at the expense of plot progress. By all means, the plot can take the back seat, but it still ought to be in the same car!


We've also gotten to see what has happened to the relationship between the two least charismatic members of OOTS.

About as much as ever happened between Durkon the Unnoticed and V over the course of the entire series. Their interaction has never been all that meaningful to date. The long conversation between them in #599 doesn't add anything to that either: Durkon doesn't get V, and V doesn't care.


These new dynamics offer a fresh perspective on the characters...

On Elan and V, sure. Haley's a bit of a stretch. Nothing we haven't already seen from Durkon and Belkar, though. Two, maybe three, out of five is a pretty bad average to excuse sundering the party for 26% of the series run to date.


So be patient with the Giant.

I am patient with the Giant. I don't complain about the fact that his update schedule has slowed to a crawl. I show further patience in continuing to read the series in spite of the plotting problems.

I have no patience with being told to be patient by other readers, however. You may disagree with what we think about the story, but leave it at that next time.

[Lamech]

Ah, but it moved. These days, it's not been doing that very well at all. More effort has been spent on stalling the story, even sending it hurtling several steps backward (golem Roy being the prime example), stretching it out in a fashion that makes the party look completely unfit for the task ahead.

If events dragged out this long, but we'd seen some indication of effort to do something about the main threat, it would be fine, but they haven't. They've made no alternative efforts to find the next gate, as though the only possible means of doing so would have lain with Roy. The idea of acting against Xykon in any fashion appears to have been thrown out the window very early on.

If they'd at least made some efforts toward these things and shown no more success than we've seen now, things would be fine. As it is, they read like a major attempt at stalling. Yes, I've reread the archives, and contrary to what some claim, it still reads that way. Yes, the strip still offers a lot of humour and there has been character development, but the plot is so far off the rails that it's left the country. It's not about how long we wait between updates.
Whats your method of finding the gate? Girard's gate is protectd by the uber illusions, and so divininations probably won't cut it. Neither will wandering around in the dessert. Besides why are you assuming that V hasn't tried any magic at his disposal to look for the gate? They have tried to accomplish something against Xykon, and failed, pretty much what has been happening since Xykon got tossed into the gate.

Secondly the plot is moving forward, just not in a healthy direction when it comes to a happy ending for the world. Roy has gotten harder to raise, Belkar is heading to his death, V has become irrational, and team evil is building it power. Stories don't always have a happy ending...


The Giant once noted that the reason the party didn't do x was because then there'd be no story. I've been willing to accept that excuse for some time, but it simply doesn't wash here. For example, Durkon is perfectly capable of casting commune and getting answers that won't put him any further ahead until he can figure out what the next questions should be.
So your wondering why hasn't Durkon cast commune? Its possible he has and failed, utterly. The cloister would hide Haley and the gods probably don't hand out gate information to everyone who asks. Also it costs EXP, something the order dearly lacks when compared to Xykon and co, so Durkon can't spam it.



On Elan and V, sure. Haley's a bit of a stretch. Nothing we haven't already seen from Durkon and Belkar, though. Two, maybe three, out of five is a pretty bad average to excuse sundering the party for 26% of the series run to date.

Belkar is begining to head toward his death, his little sub-plot is developing. And we see how Durkon does his best to hold the party together, and how he cares about the people of Azure City. I do believe he has had some development...

[Nerdanel]

I think the plot has moved slowly lately due to a need to delay the wham episode into strip 600.

(Because that's where we'll learn that

V became a lich in the extended sailing period between the orc island and the pit fiend fight

and half the forum will have to peel their eyes off the floor.

Well, that's what I think will happen.)

[David Argall]

it doesn't change the fact that the story has long been about a bunch of people spinning on their thumbs.

The Giant once noted that the reason the party didn't do x was because then there'd be no story. I've been willing to accept that excuse for some time, but it simply doesn't wash here. For example, Durkon is perfectly capable of casting commune and getting answers that won't put him any further ahead until he can figure out what the next questions should be.

A serious point. 2 Commune spells should pinpoint the next gate to within a square mile. And that is about as much as Roy should know. Durkon can certainly give up 200 XP. So the excuse must be sought elsewhere. However the plot idea is that the party is having trouble finding the gate and so some excuse must be found.
SoD Redcloak was quite able to cast Commune, but still spent years unable to find a gate. So it would be consistent for Commune to be fairly useless here.

[Shatteredtower]

Whats your method of finding the gate?

You start by looking for any information you can find. We've been given no indication that the Order has done even that much.

I don't mind them being thwarted as long as there's some impression that they have actually tried something more than, "Let V look for Roy." Failing to provide us with such an indicator is a flaw in the storytelling.


Secondly the plot is moving forward...

No, it's not. Roy's golem status is an arbitrary obstruction in plotline. Belkar's current status has pretty much turned him into another character for the forseeable future, one lacking the humour/conflict value he contributed before -- and his condition arose as a means of preventing Haley from receiving any advice, immediately useful or not.


Roy has gotten harder to raise...

For no necessary purpose.


...Belkar is heading to his death...

Not any more than he was before. His current predicament has pretty well made him a different character, not one in a state of progress.


V has become irrational...

More irrational. This development is foreshadowed by a combination of impatience with the rules and other party members we've seen foreshadowed for some time. The monomaniacal behaviour that refuses to consider any solution that does not start with finding Haley, however, seems absurd.


...and team evil is building it power.

Not in this story, it's not. Redcloak is trying to secure the hobgoblin power base, but this has nothing to do with either his or Xykon's ultimate goals. We haven't seen any progress on that front either.


Stories don't always have a happy ending...

So? This has nothing to do with the issue.


So your wondering why hasn't Durkon cast commune? Its possible he has and failed, utterly.

Show, don't tell. Assuming that they've tried alternate means when we haven't been shown any makes for a worthless argument.


The cloister would hide Haley and the gods probably don't hand out gate information to everyone who asks.

Haley wasn't the issue. The gates were, and the only clerics we have any reason to believe would want to know about them are Durkon and Redcloak. If they're not receiving any information they'd find particularly useful at this time, that's one thing -- but if we're not shown them learning anything at all, then the default assumption is that neither of them are trying.

Failing to acknowledge that is a weak example of handwaving.


Also it costs EXP, something the order dearly lacks when compared to Xykon and co, so Durkon can't spam it.

True. It doesn't address the fact that we've no indication of him trying it or anything at all. Instead it's been a couple of foiled sending spells and then leaving it to V.


Belkar is begining to head toward his death, his little sub-plot is developing.

Nonsense. He's no closer to his death than he was the moment it was predicted by the Oracle: it will still come when the time is right, regardless of whether he's under the influence of his mark or not.


And we see how Durkon does his best to hold the party together, and how he cares about the people of Azure City.

In other words, he's still nothing more than the walking bandage kit.

Edit: Mr. Argall brings up a good point.


However the plot idea is that the party is having trouble finding the gate and so some excuse must be found.

I agree with this. I have no problem with the idea that the spell is not proving useful (at least, not useful at this time), but I'd still prefer to be shown what this reason is. I've no problem with the failure coming from asking the wrong questions or failing to understand (or accept) the answers. This doesn't seem implausible coming from either cleric.

My issue isn't with them failing. My issue is with the absence of any evidence that they've actually tried.

[Mercenary Pen]

My issue isn't with them failing. My issue is with the absence of any evidence that they've actually tried.

But surely, the necessary proof of their trying would chew up at least a dozen strips in pure spam, when that effort can simply be filled in by D&D-savvy readers, leaving the Giant to focus on what HE considers to be the more important elements of the story.

There has been little or no evidence that V and Durkon have coordinated their efforts to find Haley properly, and every indication that they consider- or at least V considers- the search for Haley to be of more immediate import than tracking down the next gate, moreover it's quite possible (IMO) that intelligence was one of Durkon's dump stats- so the precise use of Commune suggested might be beyond his INT stat.

[Lord Seth]

Um. Does anyone else remember the 220 strips spent in Azure city (from their imprisonment until Hinjo's junk sails away)?The plot was going forward then. In fact, it included the battle of Azure City, which was one of the most plot-centric things in the whole comic.


The original 120 spent in the dungeon of Durokan?The main plot hadn't kicked in then.


Some 150 when Haley couldn't speak?It's true that went on too long, but again, THE PLOT WAS MOVING. Plus, Rich even admitted in his War and XPs commentary that if he could go back and do it again, he would've had Haley lose her speech later so people didn't have to put up with it for so long.


Roy himself complains about the 38 spent on the tiny sidequest to find the Starmetal.38 strips is a heck of a lot fewer than the length of our current sidequests as well as the previous ones you mentioned. If it had been only 38 strips between Roy dying and the plot moving again, no one would have complained.

There hasn't been any point in the strip where the plot has stagnated for so long as it has now.

[Morgan Wick]

The strip has never been singlemindedly focused on the main plot - from the end of the first book to #200, the only strips that advance the main plot are the ones that don't involve the Order. Even after the revelation of the nature of the gates, there are still some strips that don't advance the main plot too much, such as most of the trip to the Oracle and everything involving the Linear Guild. There are no plots going on now that were really established in the main comic any earlier than #400 or so, which probably magnifies the problem for many people.

Anyone who thinks #599 didn't advance the main plot in a major way hasn't been paying attention.

[Lord Seth]

The strip has never been singlemindedly focused on the main plot - from the end of the first book to #200, the only strips that advance the main plot are the ones that don't involve the Order. Even after the revelation of the nature of the gates, there are still some strips that don't advance the main plot too much, such as most of the trip to the Oracle and everything involving the Linear Guild. There are no plots going on now that were really established in the main comic any earlier than #400 or so, which probably magnifies the problem for many people.

Anyone who thinks #599 didn't advance the main plot in a major way hasn't been paying attention.As far as I can tell, #599 is leading towards Yet Another Sideplot That Prevents Us From Getting Back To The Main Plot™, though it could go either way.

What really bugged me the most was Celia having multiple What An Idiot moments in a row (when bringing Roy to Greysky City and then bringing him to a necromancer) that served no purpose other than to drag this arc out further.

[Wreckingrocc]

...Because it has fallen apart. Congratulations, you can discern the difference between the Perfect and Present tenses.

[Counterpower]

There hasn't been any point in the strip where the plot has stagnated for so long as it has now.

What exactly do you mean by "stagnated"? How exactly has the plot done so? Because the way I'm looking at it, the plot has improved fairly significantly. There hasn't been much on the gates in a while, yes. But they aren't the only thing that can create an interesting plot. And if the only way for the plot to be interesting is for it to focus entirely on the main plot (that is, the situation with the gates), then I know a lot of TV shows and novels that allow their own main plots to "stagnate" for (relatively) considerable amounts of time.

I will admit that if people have been wanting to see the Order back together and on track about the gates, they've been disappointed for a while. But that fact does not indicate that the plot has stagnated! Since the party has been split, we've seen Roy's interactions with his younger brother and grandfather, the trials that the Azure City survivors both in and out of the city have endured, Haley's return to her hometown, and the possible further splitting of the party without Roy's influence. And I really like seeing all of these theads develop, and I'm eager to see what happens next. Yeah, the story has been away from the gates (the main plot, I guess) for a while now. But I personally would think less of it if it focused on that one plot the entire time. I like complicated storylines with a crapload of issues to resolve or obstacles to overcome, and that's what I think the Giant has created here. Certainly, IMHO, the farthest thing from "stagnation" that could really exist; I think the plot has been significantly developed by the roadblocks that have been created.

[Ridureyu]

It's amazing how on one side we have people who can't STAND the fact that others like the comic, and thus will attempt to argue them into agreement.

Then on the other side we have people who HATE the fact that some folks dislike the way the comic is currently going, and will fight and fight to force them to agree.

Perhaps we need to calm down, take a deep breath, and stop bickering about Haley/Miko/Azure City/V/Durkon/The Order/Belkar/Whatever the current fighting issue is.

[busterswd]

The last 50 or so strips, in my book, are designed to specifically show that without Roy, the Order will fall apart. V's departure is the first major fracture, although cracks in the form of Haley being unable to control Belkar didn't help either. Once Roy returns, I'm sure he'll be able to reunite the order again.

I agree with the first part; the Order without Roy fails.

But there comes a point where even Roy won't be able to realistically pull the Order back together. V and Elan have changed quite a lot, and while the battle for Azure City effectively blocked a lot of effective character interaction, their group dynamic should have already shifted by then. Perhaps some careful nudging on his part using Haley as a bargain chip for both parties could work? Even so, there's only a certain line you can cross before you can't turn back. V might've crossed it, and if he hasn't, has a strong possibility of crossing it soon.

[j0ecool]

For the love of the gods, what is this comic based off of?
Dungeons and Dragons, a tabletop roleplaying game.
AD&D: Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, or Attention Deficit Disorder? This was mentioned a while back, and to anyone who's ever been part of anything RPG-related pretty much ever, they realize that it is the sidequest that is the bread and freaking butter of the experience. The main plot is more or less always a background concern, with immediate pressing issues popping up all the time that need dealing with now. I don't see why people are faulting the Order for not immediately trying to find the next gates and/or Xykon, given how that encounter went last time. Everyone realizes that step one in posing a credible threat to the major villain is regrouping and fighting him at full strength.

Also, I can't comprehend how Roy's death can be referred to as a "side plot". He's a main character - if not the main character - and he died. Even in the world of D&D, that's kind of a big deal. Especially if there's no good-aligned clerics nearby to res him quick-like.

Finally, may I point out that the significance of the majority of the ongoing plots weren't realized until far later? This is mentioned in the first fight with the Linear Guild: "huh, that's more planning than I thought this strip had." It sneaks up on you why various things were important. "Wait, what gate?" The audience didn't know why it was important until the trial in Azure City. Miko didn't get a reveal for 80 strips, when it turned out she wasn't some creazed assassin (heh), and was instead a paladin. The entire first dungeon was the entire OotS world until they "killed" Xykon, and afterwards the scope of the comic upshifted drastically. Then after the Azure City trial, it scaled up again when it was discovered that the very fabric of existence was at stake should things fall out of control.
The strip has always been about layering itself upon events that came prior in unexpectedly logical ways, but that's also not to say that every single strip was necessary to the plot, or even relevant. Rescuing the dirt farmer while on the road with Miko did nothing to advance the plot whatsoever, aside from giving a brief characterization of Miko that could just as easily been gleaned from cutting straight to the section at the inn. The majority of the first hundred strips could've almost entirely been cut out, but they were included for the purpose of telling stories within stories within a story.

Subplots tangents and irrelevance have always been incredibly common in this comic as well as D&D, so a 40-strip foray into corrupt Azurite nobles is nothing new in terms of pacing. V's inability to deal with said distraction is indicative of his ever-fraying mental stability, and the reason he's so hellbent on finding Haley is because he feels he should have been powerful enough to prevent losing them in the first place. He is, after all, the Wizard, prime minister of blowing the hell out of the bad guys.

[Lord Seth]

For the love of the gods, what is this comic based off of?
Dungeons and Dragons, a tabletop roleplaying game.
AD&D: Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, or Attention Deficit Disorder? This was mentioned a while back, and to anyone who's ever been part of anything RPG-related pretty much ever, they realize that it is the sidequest that is the bread and freaking butter of the experience. The main plot is more or less always a background concern, with immediate pressing issues popping up all the time that need dealing with now.Yes, OOTS is based on D&D. It IS NOT D&D. Just because something works in D&D doesn't mean it'll inherently work in a webcomic. Previous side quests have worked, but this one is dragging on too long. The fact that the group is split makes it go even slower.


Also, I can't comprehend how Roy's death can be referred to as a "side plot". He's a main character - if not the main character - and he died. Even in the world of D&D, that's kind of a big deal. Especially if there's no good-aligned clerics nearby to res him quick-like.Hey, I was fine with it until Shelia got the Idiot Ball and decided to make the plot line take even longer to finish. That, to me, was a massive Wall Banger, which is something I expect Order of the Stick to avert.

[Counterpower]

Yes, OOTS is based on D&D. It IS NOT D&D. Just because something works in D&D doesn't mean it'll inherently work in a webcomic. Previous side quests have worked, but this one is dragging on too long. The fact that the group is split makes it go even slower.

What part of this, exactly, is "taking too long"? I would assume that you mean it's taking too long to get back to the gates and Xykon... but then again, as I addressed in my earlier post, I think that the diversion from the main plot only enhances the story, rather than detracting from it. I would say that there's nothing to take too long here, as the Giant deserves all the time he needs to add variety to the storyline.


Hey, I was fine with it until Shelia got the Idiot Ball and decided to make the plot line take even longer to finish. That, to me, was a massive Wall Banger, which is something I expect Order of the Stick to avert.

While I won't deny that Celia definitely got the Idiot Ball (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall), I feel obligated to point out that Wall Banger (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WallBanger) is subjective. I personally think that it does make at least some sense... you've never known anyone that was just astoundingly naive, or otherwise unaware of the way that some parts of the world operated? Heck, I think I used to be that way.

Oh, and Celia herself did attempt to address it here in strip #578 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html), when she said, "No, Haley, the weak points of monsters that have been stitched together from the flesh of the dead are not part of the standard law school curriculum." And it's also visible in strip #529 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html) when she shows a total lack of knowledege about human capabilities. With all of that, do you still think it unreasonable that Celia, while academically capable (she's in law school after all), may not be the most streetwise person in existence?

Although I will agree with Ridureyu that maybe we're all taking this a little too seriously. I hope I'm not coming across as crazed or anything like that....

[David Argall]

I can't comprehend how Roy's death can be referred to as a "side plot". He's a main character - if not the main character - and he died. Even in the world of D&D, that's kind of a big deal. Especially if there's no good-aligned clerics nearby to res him quick-like.
Because it is a side plot. The party loses Roy, does a lot of stuff to recover him, and ends up more or less where they started. That's pretty much the definition of a side plot.
In our current case, consider the behavior of Team Evil. They are effectively doing nothing, just waiting for the party to deal with the side plot so they can get back to the main plot.

So the plot is indeed stagnating. But I don't see that as a bad thing. We have a definite destination and the sooner we get to it, the sooner we lose OOTS. Why rush? Go ahead and take all sorts of side quests. It's pure profit from our view.
[Of course, just how we stagnate is another story. The party split is the party lessened. The strip benefits from the interactions among the party members, which are falling to zero. If we could just stagnate with all the party on stage...]

[Counterpower]

Because it is a side plot. The party loses Roy, does a lot of stuff to recover him, and ends up more or less where they started. That's pretty much the definition of a side plot.
In our current case, consider the behavior of Team Evil. They are effectively doing nothing, just waiting for the party to deal with the side plot so they can get back to the main plot.

So the plot is indeed stagnating. But I don't see that as a bad thing. We have a definite destination and the sooner we get to it, the sooner we lose OOTS. Why rush? Go ahead and take all sorts of side quests. It's pure profit from our view.
[Of course, just how we stagnate is another story. The party split is the party lessened. The strip benefits from the interactions among the party members, which are falling to zero. If we could just stagnate with all the party on stage...]

I'm still hung up on the idea of the plot stagnating. I don't think it's doing anything of the sort. You stated that the party will end up "more or less where they started"... I don't see how that will happen by any stretch of the word, considering the character development and consequences of these events will most likely remain with the story for a considerable length of time, certainly long after the OotS is back on track with the main plot.

[Dreamthiev]

This could indeed be the end of V, at least for awhile. We know she was planning on contacting her agent in 277 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), maybe she finally got herself written out of the strip? :smalltongue:

[David Argall]

I'm still hung up on the idea of the plot stagnating. I don't think it's doing anything of the sort. You stated that the party will end up "more or less where they started"... I don't see how that will happen by any stretch of the word, considering the character development and consequences of these events will most likely remain with the story for a considerable length of time, certainly long after the OotS is back on track with the main plot.
So what really are these character developments? And what makes them of much importance?

Recall here Roy's side quest to get the star metal. That has had serious long term consequences, including getting Roy killed. The party also ended up mega-rich [temporarily]. Yet this is correctly identified as just a side quest. While the basic idea of the side plot is that the party effectively goes nowhere, that does not mean exactly nowhere. In fact vital things happen often enough. But we still end up with a more or less self-contained chapter of the story and the characters are apparently no closer to their goal than when they started.

So we have a side quest here that looks to last about 200 strips.

[AKA_Bait]

So what really are these character developments? And what makes them of much importance?

Elan was just willing to let V walk (fly) away. That, just by itself, given Elan's history of being abandoned is pretty signifigant. The character development has mainly been between those two though. Still, there have been pretty major changes to both. I'm not sure how well the order would function as a group with both of them anymore.

[Shatteredtower]

But surely, the necessary proof of their trying would chew up at least a dozen strips in pure spam...

"Surely" nothing. You could easily cover the whole thing over the course of the occasional word balloon in any of those dozen comics you think it would take, rather than an entire comic.

To label attempts to keep addressing, rather than just waving hands at, the main plot, over the course of the last 100+ strips "spam" is laughable.


...when that effort can simply be filled in by D&D-savvy readers...

... is daft story-telling for three reasons.

First, a healthy percentage of the Giant's readers aren't "D&D savvy" at all, and he's tried to make this work accessible to those who don't know our secret handshake.

Second, that's lazy storytelling and incompetent artistry. If you can't show, you're failing as a storyteller.

Third, this has nothing to do with being D&D savvy. What you're describing is a computer game mentality, in which the world always waits until you're ready to tackle the problem. D&D is not so limited: the world is perfectly capable of moving forward without you -- or at least seeming to do so.


...leaving the Giant to focus on what HE considers to be the more important elements of the story.

Why must you argue with the straw man? No one's complained about the change of immediate focus. The complaint is about the fact that this focus has excluded any meaningful effort to pursue the main plot for as long as it has.


There has been little or no evidence that V and Durkon have coordinated their efforts to find Haley properly, and every indication that they consider- or at least V considers- the search for Haley to be of more immediate import than tracking down the next gate, moreover it's quite possible (IMO) that intelligence was one of Durkon's dump stats- so the precise use of Commune suggested might be beyond his INT stat.

It's the Giant's place to show that. Not yours. After all, your reasons don't do most of the non-forum going viewers any good.

And the winner of the award for Misrepresenting the Point goes to:


It's amazing how on one side we have people who can't STAND the fact that others like the comic, and thus will attempt to argue them into agreement.

Nothing wrong with continuing to enjoy the comic. I'm perfectly capable of enjoying a winter weekend in a drafty cabin, but I don't have to pretend it couldn't have been better without the draft.

[Manoftyr]

I really think the stagnating plot and overall lack of progress towards any sort of goal and the party's seeming inability to cooperate in any fashion is all intended to illustrate one key, focal point...*THEY*.*NEED*.*ROY*.

Without Roy absolutely everything falls to fecal matter almost instantly and as a result all of the things we love about the order and all of what we're accustomed to from them drifts away as well...

Elan's innocence/storybook romance with Haley, V's intellectual prowess, Belkar's stabbyness etc. it's all gone, crumbled away, without Roy the order simply cannot function in any real capacity, Roy was the only person with the intelligence, sense, aptitude and force of personality to keep all of these extremely different people together and focused in any capacity.

I have a feeling things will get even 'worse' for the order pretty soon in order to demonstrate just how screwed everyone is without Roy, it may even get to a point where the entire order looks like they'll be splitting up for good, or about to be killed one by one or any number of things.

But then lo and behold, Roy will get resurrected somehow and fix everything through virtue of being Roy...that's what he does, he's the leader through and through.

[Lamech]

So what really are these character developments? And what makes them of much importance?

Recall here Roy's side quest to get the star metal. That has had serious long term consequences, including getting Roy killed. The party also ended up mega-rich [temporarily]. Yet this is correctly identified as just a side quest. While the basic idea of the side plot is that the party effectively goes nowhere, that does not mean exactly nowhere. In fact vital things happen often enough. But we still end up with a more or less self-contained chapter of the story and the characters are apparently no closer to their goal than when they started.

So we have a side quest here that looks to last about 200 strips.

But the plot isn't going no where, team evil has been shown to be increasing its power base, which by the way can have major effects. Epic level magic for starters can get really strong and long lasting, really quickly with low level casters to feed you power. A team of casters well developed and orginized can give one a safe place to recover, and make it hard for the heroes to hide. V has broken off from the order; Belkar looks like he may be in danger of dying. A massive blow to team good doesn't seem like the plot going no where...

[reignofevil]

Clearly, Roy is symbolic of Jesus.

He won't come back until the apocalypse.

Jesus got rezzed once before the apocalypse.
Hence the whole "second coming" thing.

[[TS] Shadow]

Just because the characters aren't achieving anything in the story doesn't mean that they aren't accomplishing anything. Some characters within this story were ment only as pure plot device. Look at Miko. She had 3 very important roles within the story, and little else.
1: Bringing the Order to Azure City.
2: Killing Shojo, putting Hinjo into power.
3: Dystroying the Azure Gate, causing the party split, among other things.
Although well developed and interesting, Miko could have been eliminated from the story and it could have still worked. This situation is similar. This arc that we're in now is producing a lot of things that can and will have an effect later on. Qarr, Grubby, and the Thieves Guild wouldn't even be in here if they didn't have some importance to the plot. My prediction is that these characters will learn of the gates and join in the conflict to control them. This "sidequest" of an arc will still have some effect even if and when the party gets back together. Elan and Haley have both changed a lot; how will they interact once they get back together? How is Haley going to explain Belkar's death to Roy (if this happens before his ressurection)? How will Elan explain V's actions to Roy? Bringing back Roy and going straight to the gates isn't going to happen in the way that we expect. These "useless" characters and stories are important, or they wouldn't be here. If Roy turning into a golem wasn't important, the Giant would leave it out. These events are important to the story, and I think that this arc is one of the best yet in the entire series.