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IM@work
2008-10-12, 05:19 PM
So I am currently working on a character who makes the most out of critical hits, just for fun right now but I may use him someday. So far there are the obvious enhancments: keen and impact, and the feats improved critical and power critical. I have also made this list of items from the DMG and MIC, with the smiley ones being of special value. (synergy means +2 cost basically)
I have also learned of kaorti weapons from the fiend folio which make any weapons crit multiplier x4 but need exotic weapon profficiency and a maker to create one.
Here is the list:

DMG:smallsmile: all of them, especially thundering (all damage values are for a crit multiplier of x4)
Slow burst (5,000 gp) slows
Acidic burst (synergy) 3d10
Flaming burst (synergy) 3d10
Icy burst (synergy) 3d10
Shocking burst (synergy) 3d10
Thundering (+1) 3d8 sonic

MIC
Maiming (+1) Crit: 3d6 damage:smallsmile:
Weakening (+1) Crit: -4 str
Dessicating burst (synergy) 3d8, 6d8 plants/water elementals
Fiercebane (synergy) 3d10 specific creature
Paralytic burst (+2) paralyze 1 round
Profane burst (synergy) 3d10, 6d10 good outsider
Psychokinetic burst (synergy) 3d6 force damage
Sacred burst (synergy) 3d10, 6d10 evil outsider:smallsmile:
Screaming burst (synergy) 3d8 sonic
Stunning (synergy) stunned 1 round

Do you at the GItP forums have anything to help or add? Either crit weapon, feat, or whatever? Please don't criticize about how making a character off of only crits is not a good idea, because I pretty much know that.


(But it is freaking hillarious to show your party members that on a 15-20 crit with a +1 kaorti thundering maiming falchion you do 8d4+3d8+3d6+Str and then some damage.)

Temp.
2008-10-12, 05:24 PM
Don't forget the Psychic Weapons master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d). I think Master Throwers get a couple Crit-augmenting abilities, too.

Dr Bwaa
2008-10-12, 05:30 PM
hate to spoil a bit of your fun, but keen and improved critical don't stack. Better to stick with just the feat and add more mods.

BizzaroStormy
2008-10-12, 05:34 PM
They dont stack in RAW but I know a few DMs that allow them to stack for a simple reason.

Keen or Impact, is the weapon itself being augmented to make critting easier.

Improved Critical, is an increase in the wielders skill.

When you think about it, there's no reason they shouldn't stack; they just dont stack in RAW because the one who wrote up thr rules might have seen it as unbalanced.

Innis Cabal
2008-10-12, 05:36 PM
They dont stack in RAW but I know a few DMs that allow them to stack for a simple reason.

Keen or Impact, is the weapon itself being augmented to make critting easier.

Improved Critical, is an increase in the wielders skill.

When you think about it, there's no reason they shouldn't stack; they just dont stack in RAW because the one who wrote up thr rules might have seen it as unbalanced.

They did in 3.0 as far as I remember.

Also, I house rule they do for the same reason

Talya
2008-10-12, 05:38 PM
Technically, the Weapon Master PRC from 3.0 (Sword and Fist, page 38) is still valid for 3.5, as they did not re-write it.

Make sure you take improved critical in your weapon of choice before reaching weapon master 6, do not rely on keen, as with the rewrite to keen and improved crit stacking, this is essential. If they already have improved crit, the weapon master increases the critical threat range of their weapon of choice by +2 (so 19-20 becomes 17-20, 15-20 becomes 13-20.) They also increase their crit multiplier by +1 (so from x2 to x3, or higher) 5x per day (after you roll a critical hit, before you roll damage) by weapon master 10.

I think your best bang for the buck there, is to go with a 20/x4 weapon, such as the goliath greathammer. +2 to the crit range makes a much bigger deal for a 20/x4 weapon than a 18-20/x2 weapon. Then again, +1 to the multiplier makes a bigger deal to a x2 weapon than a x4 weapon, so maybe I'm wrong. Still, a goliath weapon master weilding a 3d6 - 17-20/x5 hammer with any of your pretty enchantments seems yummy.

(And yes, Keen/improved crit stacking was eliminated intentionally for 3.5, because people were threatening a crit on every hit they made--with weapon master, a scimitar, rapier or falchion was critting on a 10-20--which is also probably why weapon master was never ported to 3.5. This was a mistake, however, as 3.0 material remains officially 3.5 RAW if they didn't rewrite and rerelease it.)

bigbaddragon
2008-10-12, 05:46 PM
Disciple of Dispater PrC from Book of Vile Darkness triples critical threat range of iron or steel weapon being used and that stacks with Improved Critical feat (but not with keen). This could turn 18-20 range into 9-20 range if I'm correct. Add Power Attack (which is one of the requirements for the PrC btw) and have fun :smallwink:.

Dr Bwaa
2008-10-12, 05:46 PM
They dont stack in RAW but I know a few DMs that allow them to stack for a simple reason.

Keen or Impact, is the weapon itself being augmented to make critting easier.

Improved Critical, is an increase in the wielders skill.

When you think about it, there's no reason they shouldn't stack; they just dont stack in RAW because the one who wrote up thr rules might have seen it as unbalanced.

I agree and have said so in your thread on the subject :p but he asked for advice so he should be aware of the limitations in case his DM is not one of those who will allow them to stack anyway. :)

BizzaroStormy
2008-10-12, 05:54 PM
Well lets see, first you have a weapon with an 18-20 crit. Add keen for 15-20, add Improved Critical for 9-20, then if you have that class feature that triples it...that gives you a -11 to 20 crit range.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-12, 06:08 PM
There's a SpC spell called Critical Strike that, as a Swift Action, adds +4 to confirming crits, doubles your crit range(stacking), and tosses on +1d6 damage. It's low-level, too, so you can get an item of it at-will pretty cheaply.

afroakuma
2008-10-12, 06:11 PM
If I recall correctly, the 3.0 rule for stacked criticals was this: double double is triple, double double double is quadruple, double triple is quadruple

So everytime you take keen or IC, you just add the base threat range again.

Much more reasonable.

Iku Rex
2008-10-12, 06:20 PM
You can't make any weapon a kaorti weapon with an x4 multipler. The FF has a x4 exotic kaorti "ribbon dagger" - that's it. Or at least that's all I could find.

As for crit stuff:

A bloodlust (+6000, Forge of War) shield adds a +4 morale bonus to your confirmation rolls.

The pitspawned weapon template (+1000, DMGII) adds a +2 unnamed bonus.

The hunter's mercy (Rgr1, SpC) spell makes your next hit with a bow a critical hit.

The surge of fortune (Clr5, CCha) spells lets you declare one attack roll a natural 20 (automatic crit threat).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-12, 06:30 PM
Kaorti. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a):smalltongue:do not doubt my powers

Swooper
2008-10-12, 06:41 PM
What's your character build? Sneak attack + the Telling Blow feat (PHB2 I think - gives your sneak attack damage on a critical hit) will add some punch to your crits.

IM@work
2008-10-12, 07:10 PM
As of right now it is a toss up between rogue sneak attack type character or a straight fighter. I do know about rules saying no stacked keen/improved critical. In all honesty that would just be ridiculous.
Also, the bloodlust shield looks pretty great right now.
As for build options:
if Fighter probably use keen enhancement and have a high crit range weapon-such as falchion
if Rogue like character probably get improved critical and dual wield rapiers or something with a 18-20/x2 crit. Sneak attack and huge crit is very appealing.
Are there any feats that anyone can think of? I don't think I saw any.

ocato
2008-10-12, 07:48 PM
What's your character build? Sneak attack + the Telling Blow feat (PHB2 I think - gives your sneak attack damage on a critical hit) will add some punch to your crits.

Rogue/Scout with improved Skirmish and Swift Ambusher would work even better. Trade 1d6 sneak attack for full skirmish? TWF and Two Weapon Pounce for surprise sneak/skirmish attacks (to start) and then telling blow to try to sneak/skirmish as much in combat as possible

Chronos
2008-10-12, 09:23 PM
Warblades get their Int bonus to rolls to confirm critical hits. Paladins and archivists can cast the Bless Weapon spell, which makes confirmations automatic vs. evil creatures. And the Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a)gets an extra doubling of crit range that explicitly stacks with Improved Critical, but you have to suffer through seven levels of the class to get it.

Thurbane
2008-10-12, 09:39 PM
The Mythic Exemplar PrC (CC) has an ability (Paragon's Gift, Least [Sunyartra]) which increases the critical range of a weapon by 1 (and specifically stacks with anything else). You can get this ability by level 2 of the PrC, but it's only usable for a limited number of rounds, and a limited number of times per day.

erikun
2008-10-12, 09:41 PM
I generally prefer 2 weapon fighting, speed, and high crit rate; attacking 10 times a round with a 17-20 crit range ensures at least a few criticals each round. No clue if that's better than a x4 weapon for your purposes, though.

Person_Man
2008-10-12, 09:53 PM
If you're just looking to maximize damage, I'd add on some combination of Battle Jump (Unapproachable East), Headlong Rush (Races of Faerun), Rhino's Rush (Spell Compendium), or Spirited Charge. Throw in Power Attack and/or Leap Attack for bonus damage. A Half-Orc Paladin with the PHBII charging smite variant using a lance two handed from the back of a mount could easily get {5(1d8 + [Str*1.5] + [BAB * 2] + [2 * level] + magic) + bonus dice} damage pretty easily.

Whatever you do, make sure you have something ready for the many enemies who are immune to crits.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-12, 10:07 PM
What, no mention of the Lightning Maces and Snap Kick feats with +1 Aptitude Keen Kukris, the stance Blood in the Water, and 3.5 legit Disciple of Dispater 10, along with any turn undead ability, Divine Metamagic: Persistent, and a Greater Ring of Spell Storing with Choose Destiny, to gain two extra attacks per critical hit and about an 80% chance of scoring a crit each attack, which explodes into an infinite number of attacks. FTW.

mabriss lethe
2008-10-12, 11:06 PM
five levels of binder and the expenditure of a feat gives you access to Andras. (Or seven levels of binder without the feat.) He grants the "Sure Blows" ability to whomever he's bound. You gain Improved critical for every weapon you wield. If you already have improved crit for a weapon, this ability gives you a +4 bonus to confirm the crit that stacks with the Power Critical feat.

monty
2008-10-12, 11:47 PM
I'm not entirely sure why they thought the stacking was broken. I mean, melee characters are underpowered anyway, and it's not like there are very many spellcasters cheesing out the crit ranges on their rays.

sonofzeal
2008-10-13, 12:00 AM
I just have one thing to say....

Psychic Weapons Master + Tiger Fang Legacy Weapon = awsm :smallcool:

(edit - to clarify, Tiger Fang + PWM = an all-day 13-20/x4 crit and sometimes a 13-20/x5 crit. Have fun!)

Talic
2008-10-13, 12:11 AM
First, crit builds are fundamentally weak.

They lose a lot of damage vs anything immune to crits, including undead, oozes, constructs, plants, etc.

An entire enchantment completely turns them off (Greater Fortification).

That said:

1 level lion totem barbarian.
then go into fighter.
Maybe into disciple of dispater.

2 handed weapon. Say, a Greatsword.
Good off hand weapon usable with a 2 hander. Let's go with Armor spikes.


Two weapon fighting, Improved Two weapon Fighting, Greater Two weapon Fighting
Power attack, Leap attack, Shock Trooper
Improved Crit (greatsword), Improved crit (Armor Spikes).

Burst weapons (+1).

Now, you can charge, full attack, power attack (with shock trooper to AC), get full damage on the 2 hander, take normal damage on the armor spikes.

Get a haste effect, for an extra attack. At level 11, you'll be swinging:

greatsword at full, full, -5, -10
Armor spikes at full, -5, -10

Greatsword will do 2d6 + 1.5 Str + 45, that multiplies on a crit
+1d6, and an additional 2d10 on a crit.

Armor spikes will get 1d6 + 0.5 Str + 1, that multiplies on a crit
+1d6, and an additional 2d10 on a crit.

Two handed weapon, two weapon fighting build that uses crits, but doesn't rely on them.

****************************************

Or, go into Dervish + Scimitars and the two weapon fighting tree, and go up to thousand cuts. Movement enhancers for added effect. If you can get multiweapon fighting as well, and use races that have more arms, so much the better.

Thri Kreen work well, as do any race with a tail attack (and serpent kingdoms Prehensile Tail Feat), as well as Lords of Madness and the Mouthpick weapon.

Heck, take a thri-kreen, find a way to get it a bite attack (there are ways... including the Hunger Domain), get it a mouthpick weapon, and improved multiattack, adn you have, with a +11 BAB, 11 attacks per round, on a moving full attack (dervish). Once you get to Thousand Cuts and BAB 16? Lookin at 32 attacks in a round. With a 15-20 weapon.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-13, 05:05 AM
Technically, the Weapon Master PRC from 3.0 (Sword and Fist, page 38) is still valid for 3.5, as they did not re-write it. Oh, but they did. They also tweaked the name: it's now the Exotic Weapon Master, and it was released in Complete Warrior back in 2003.

Iku Rex
2008-10-13, 05:13 AM
Oh, but they did. They also tweaked the name: it's now the Exotic Weapon Master, and it was released in Complete Warrior back in 2003.Different class features, different prerequisites, different name. Not the same class.

Edit: Also, the Weapon Master is also found in Oriental Adventures. OA got an official 3.5 update in Dragon 318 and there were no changes to the Weapon Master.

BobVosh
2008-10-13, 05:50 AM
Heck, take a thri-kreen, find a way to get it a bite attack (there are ways... including the Hunger Domain), get it a mouthpick weapon, and improved multiattack, adn you have, with a +11 BAB, 11 attacks per round, on a moving full attack (dervish). Once you get to Thousand Cuts and BAB 16? Lookin at 32 attacks in a round. With a 15-20 weapon.

They already got one. With poison. Does 1d6 dex primary, 1d6 dex secondary.

Insectile is a great template for dervish, gives you a total of 6 arms for +2 la.

Talic
2008-10-13, 05:58 AM
So...

Insectile Thri-Kreen

Sorceror 1 (Dragon Tail, then Prehensile tail)
Fighter 4
Dervish 10

Now you get:

6 arms (scimitars for all!)
1 bite (mouthpick scimitar!)
1 tail (prehensile tail scimitar!)

total of 8 limbs.

Now, greater multiweapon gives you, at let's say a +16 BAB:

Attack at Full x8
Attack at -5 x8
Attack at -10 x8
Attack at -15

25 total attacks. Dervish dance to 50. You'll need a heck of a movement to pull it all off, though. Assuming you attack prior to moving, and after every square moved, you'll need 120 feet of movement to get all your attacks.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-13, 06:01 AM
Best way I know to make the most of criticals is with Telling Blow and sneak attack/skirmish. Telling Blow always deals your sneak/skirmish damage on critical hits, so it doesn't mind if you're more than 30' away, the target has concealment, or you don't move 10' beforehand.

Keen rapier threatens on 15-20. Great crossbow with Keen Edge cast on the bolts also threatens on 15-20.

SoD
2008-10-13, 06:23 AM
25 total attacks. Dervish dance to 50. You'll need a heck of a movement to pull it all off, though. Assuming you attack prior to moving, and after every square moved, you'll need 120 feet of movement to get all your attacks.

Let's see: base speed=40.
Take the quick trait=50.
Replace One Oevel Of Fighter With Barbarian=60.
If you can afford +1 LA: Dark Template from ToM=70
Dash Feat=75
Boots of Striding and Springing=85.
Get Wizard To Cast Haste=115 (Look! First enhancement bonus!)

OK. I'm out of ideas, but hey! I got within 5 feet...

BizzaroStormy
2008-10-13, 07:41 AM
Couldn't you just circle around your target?

Epinephrine
2008-10-13, 08:00 AM
There is also a way to boost crit range in Cityscape.

Streetfighter variant barbarian:
"At 7th level, the critical threat range of any charge attack he makes, or any attack he makes against a flat-footed foe, increases by 1. (Thus, a greataxe would threaten a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.) This ability stacks with the Improved Critical feat or the keen weapon enhancement."

Flat +1 to range, stacks with the feat. 18-20 om a x4 weapon is nice, if you could add it to the weapon master PrC you could get 16-20x4, which is pretty amazing (~ same average damage boost as a 6-20 on a x2 weapon)

Malicte
2008-10-13, 10:02 AM
What, no mention of the Lightning Maces and Snap Kick feats with +1 Aptitude Keen Kukris, the stance Blood in the Water, and 3.5 legit Disciple of Dispater 10, along with any turn undead ability, Divine Metamagic: Persistent, and a Greater Ring of Spell Storing with Choose Destiny, to gain two extra attacks per critical hit and about an 80% chance of scoring a crit each attack, which explodes into an infinite number of attacks. FTW.

Thread over. :smalltongue:

IM@work
2008-10-13, 10:28 AM
Lightning Maces and Snap Kick feats
3.5 legit Disciple of Dispater
Where are these found?

tonberrian
2008-10-13, 10:37 AM
Lightning Maces and Snap Kick feats
3.5 legit Disciple of Dispater
Where are these found?

Lightning Mace is from Comp. Warrior, and Snap Kick from Tome of Battle. Can't help with Disciple of Dispater.

For more critting goodness, Soulbreaker, Bodyfeeder, Mindfeeder, and Coup de Grace here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#bodyfeeder) are nifty, and Heroe's Blade (from ECS) adds another multiple to crit range which explicitly stacks with Imp. Critical (but not Keen).

monty
2008-10-13, 10:53 AM
Let's see: base speed=40.
Take the quick trait=50.
Replace One Oevel Of Fighter With Barbarian=60.
If you can afford +1 LA: Dark Template from ToM=70
Dash Feat=75
Boots of Striding and Springing=85.
Get Wizard To Cast Haste=115 (Look! First enhancement bonus!)

OK. I'm out of ideas, but hey! I got within 5 feet...

Feral template. Done.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-13, 12:52 PM
Disciple of Dispater is from BoVD, and is still considered legal for use in 3.5. It increases your threat range by two more steps, which specifically says that it stacks with Keen, turning any 18-20 weapon into a 9-20 weapon, all still 3.5 legal.

The Aptitude weapon property (ToB) says that any feat that applies to one specific weapon also applies to this weapon, so an aptitude weapon can be substituted for the name of any weapon in any feat in the game, such as Lightning [aptitude weapon] and Snap [aptitude weapon].

Choose Destiny is a spell from Races of Destiny, for its duration every time you would roll a d20 you instead roll two and choose the best one; with a 9-20 threat range there is a 40% chance of you not scoring a threat, so when rolling two d20s there's only a 16% chance that neither die will roll a threat. When using a spell from a Ring of Spell Storing you are considered the one casting the spell, so you can use Divine Metamagic: Persistent on it as long as its a divine spell, which there is no arcane version of this one.

Blood in the Water gives you a cumulative +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls every time you score a critical hit, so not only does this combo explode into nigh-infinite attacks/crits, it also will never miss on later attacks.

Person_Man
2008-10-13, 02:49 PM
Of course, that brings up the inherent problem with optimizing any melee build. If you have some combo that deals 1,000 damage against 70% of enemies 86% of the time, then in order to challenge you the DM needs to heavily mix in the 30% of enemies who are immune, and/or present you with enemies who have 10,000 hit points.

Triaxx
2008-10-13, 03:00 PM
Since no one mentioned it, Power Critical in Complete Warrior adds +4 to confirm, but needs Power Attack.

That said, I've always been a big fan of Scythes for Critical Power. My casters always use them since if they have to attack, they'll likely only hit on a critical, which will cause that extra damage, and make up for the eight or nine misses... :smallwink:

Heliomance
2008-10-13, 03:05 PM
Is there anything that actually increases the critical multiplier? Best I've found for that is a lance with Spirited Charge.

Chronos
2008-10-13, 11:31 PM
Master Thrower can, but it'd be tough to get that to work with a lance unless you have a very specialized build.

sonofzeal
2008-10-14, 12:24 AM
Is there anything that actually increases the critical multiplier? Best I've found for that is a lance with Spirited Charge.
As I said earlier, Psychic Weapons Master + Tiger Fang Legacy Weapon.

Tiger Fang is a kukri, which eventually becomes keen, and boosts its own crit multiplier all the way up to a x4.

PWM gives an x/day boost to crit multiplier, as well as increasing crit range by 2.

Result: 13-20/x5 crits. It's only 1d4 base damage (and you have issues meeting PWM prereqs unless you can make Tiger Fang crystal), but come on! It's rather hard to beat those numbers for sheer crit build.

Talic
2008-10-14, 12:27 AM
Choose Destiny is a spell from Races of Destiny, for its duration every time you would roll a d20 you instead roll two and choose the best one; with a 9-20 threat range there is a 40% chance of you not scoring a threat, so when rolling two d20s there's only a 16% chance that neither die will roll a threat.

One problem with this...

Let's say you're swinging a +17 to hit against an opponent with a 35 AC

Regardless of your threat range, you threaten on an 18-20.

So high AC can stop the combo from starting.

Ganurath
2008-10-14, 12:32 AM
{table]Level|Class|Feat
I|Hexblade|Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
II|Hexblade|
III|Hexblade|Combat Expertise
IV|Hexblade|
V|Hexblade|Spell Penetration
VI|Kensai|Improved Critical (Scimitar)
VII|Kensai|
VIII|Kensai|
IX|Kensai|Improved Combat Expertise or Power Critical
X|Kensai|[/table]

By tenth level, you can get a +1 Signature Weapon with the Coup de Grace ability from the EPH (or SRD) which hits with a high DC hold effect whenever you crit.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-14, 04:15 AM
OK. I'm out of ideas, but hey! I got within 5 feet...The Clerical Celerity domain adds 10' to your base land speed, and provides Expeditious Retreat as your level 1 domain spell, so a single level Cleric dip will also let you give yourself the 30' speed enhancement bonus.

Paul H
2008-10-20, 07:22 PM
Hi

If you take lvl dip into Cleric you also get Grave Strike which allows you crit/sneak attack undead.

Also- some crit effects work even if the target is immune to crits - you just get that effect, not everything else.

Personally I prefer Llir for Magic & Travel domains. You get Freedom of Movement vs magic effects. You can also use magic items/wands etc as Wizard. Her Spiritual Wpn is a Rapier. D10 force dam with 18-20 threat range.

Cheers
Paul H

holywhippet
2008-10-20, 09:10 PM
Not sure if it's in 3.5 anywhere, but in 3.0 there is a weapon called a stump dagger. Not great damage, and technically you might need to be missing a hand to wield it, but if you have done damage to a target and haven't attacked anyone else since then, the critical threat range goes to 17-20.